[Preacherman]

Have you seen this? A .45 ACP Luger carbine, with Georg Luger's initials engraved on it! Comes complete with holster/buttstock, carry case, etc.


http://gmund.rennlist.com/luger/main_top.jpg


See here (http://www.worldoflugers.com/carbine.html) for a lot more pictures and information. The price? A mere $1,000,000.00!!!

:what:

(Needless to say, I want it... :D )

[BowStreetRunner]

the website says "viewing by appt."
id go see it if it said "shooting by appt" instead
:)
but
if i had a gun that was worth that much, i dont think id shoot it either:D
BSR

[Quartus]

Preacherman, did you HAVE to go an do that to me? That is MY DREAM TOY!

Well, I guess I can live without the collector's version. There used to be a guy in California who made replicas in various calibers. Including .45ACP and 9mm and 7.65.


Drool.......

[clubsoda22]

I believe that guy making them in cali was selling them for several grand. still an awfully expensive shooter.

[Jeff OTMG]

The guy making the .45 Luger was John V. Martz

[444]

Nice
I saw a carbine, like that, at a gun shop in Carson City Nevada. I didn't look at it closely, but I am sure it wasn't as valuable as this one. It was probably JUST a 9mm carbine. :D
Not that this has anything to do with anything, but that shop had all kinds of cool stuff including the Gyro Jet pistol and carbine. They must have had several thousand guns in stock.

One of those "Tales of the Gun" shows was dedicated to super expensive guns. I don't remember what the most expensive one was. I know that the .45 ACP Luger that was submitted for the US Government trials is up there as one of the most expensive.

[Leatherneck]

Hey, Preach, thanks! I've been looking for a Luger. Now at my present budget rate for guns, I should be able to pick up that little beauty in, oh, about AD 2058! :D

TC
TFL Survivor

[Tamara]

If I traded him every gun I own, I'd still be well over $950,000 short. :uhoh:

[Norm357]

Gary James got to shoot a million dollar Luger. I thought it was the only one out there. Is this a fake?


Norm

[SnWnMe]

I read somewhere that there were only two 45ACP Lugers made. They were used for US Army testing. Of course, G.L. can have anything he wants.

[Jim Watson]

Yeah, you have to wonder about that.
I recall when the .380 Baby Luger turned up. It started out as one of a kind, then they had reports from sources who were there that there were six made - three each .32 and .380 - and now there seem to have been more than that.

John Martz has made .45 Lugers by cutting and welding two 9mms.
There was another shop which was supposed to have tooled up to make 100 .45s true to the Army trials pair and was to sell them for $10,000 each. I think Gary James wrote one of those up, too.

[Dr.Rob]

There were .45 cal Lugers made post war by Stoeger as well.

The reason the 45 cal testing models are expensive is that there were only 2 or 3 made, and one of them was more or less worn out during the testing, leaving 1 or 2 left in existance.

The .45 Luger by Georg Luger may have been made in several different models, including this carbine. But there were only a few 2or 3 made for the army trials.

I saw the "Million dollar gun" episode, and indeed the 45 cal luger was one of them, and the guy shot it for the show. A PPK owned by Hilter was also thought to be a million dollar pistol.

[Mike Irwin]

I think Martz has made .38 Super Lugers, as well.

[Norm357]

I read somewhere that there were only two 45ACP Lugers made. They were used for US Army testing. Of course, G.L. can have anything he wants


OK went to the basement and dug out History of the gun "Luger". Only 2 .45 caliber Lugers were made for the Army trials. IMHO this gun for sale is a fake. Can anyone change my mind?


Norm

[Quartus]

Actually, I'd rather have one in 7.65. Hmmm. How about .357SIG? That would make a dynamite rabbit gun!

[BigG]

The .45 Lugers made for the Army trials were the Borchardt-Luger pattern, a transition between the original Borchardt and the P08 we all are familiar with. Prolly had a grip safety and I believe the manual safety worked backwards also. Lugers are a fascinating subject (and spensive!)

[Preacherman]

Norm, I'd also heard that there were only 2 .45 Lugers ever made - but the website tells it like this:
Most believe that the .45 Luger pistol is the most desirable semi-automatic pistol in the world. Certainly, it is the most sought after; and in its original form, would be the "crown-jewel" of any investment or collection portfolio. Originally produced for test acceptance by the U. S. Army in 1906, there is some question about how many of this unique variation were actually made.

Charles Kenyon Jr., in his book "Lugers At Random" (page 110) states:
The serial number of the example shown [on page 111] is "2", number "1" having been used in the actual test, while number "2" was for "back up". U. S. Army records of the test program indicate that pistol number "1" was subjected to severe use and abuse in the course of the tests. To date, serial number "1" has not been located and is thought by many collectors to have been discarded after the tests were completed.

Here is a quote from THE LUGER STORY by John Walter, page 118:
Though the progress of the American trials is well documented, controversy still surrounds the .45 Lugers. Work apparently began in the late summer of 1906, when 5000 cartridges were sent to Luger from Frankford Arsenal. The pistols were completed late in February 1907, two of them arriving at Springfield Armory some time prior to 28th March. One gun, believed to have been no. 1, was put through the trials whilst no. 2 was retained for examination. The latter still exists, thought he fate of its companion is unknown.

But where are the others? And, if so, how many? Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken clearly made more than two, as at least one would have been retained in Germany as a safeguard against the loss of the guns dispatched to the USA; coincidentally, .45 Luger no. 4 is said to have been found in Germany in 1945 and taken to the USA as a souvenir. Another example, apparently numbered '4', was pictured in LUGER. The late August Weiss credited his predecessor, Heinrich Hoffmann, with a statement that "no more than six" 45 caliber guns had been made.

Harry Jones pictured two surviving guns in the revised edition of LUGER VARIATIONS, commenting that the second survivor was fired 150 times in 1960 without a single stoppage. Unfortunately for Luger and DWM, the ammunition used in 1907 was not as reliable!

It is reported that there is a .45 cal Luger in the Norton Gallery, in Shreveport, Louisiana. Mr. Norton was an early Louisiana oilman, and this Luger was purchased by Mr. Norton from Harry Jones. In some of his writings Harry Jones tells about himself and Mr. Norton taking the pistol out and running a box of ammo through it. The pistol is pictured on page 381 of Scott Meadow's "US MILITARY AUTOMATIC PISTOLS". The pistol has a commercial proof, but also has the GL proof on the toggle.
Now, I'm no Luger expert, but if the above accounts are correct, then it is conceivable that more than 2 were made, although only 2 were delivered to the US Army for testing. The Web site also claims:
This .45 Luger Carbine has recently gone through preliminary forensic testing, which indicates and assures its originality and authenticity. While further testing is being conducted, the results and methodologies will be disclosed only to the serious buyer.

For further information regarding the nature of these test, please inquire.
I guess we'll have to wait and see whether their "verification" process holds up under scrutiny - and at that price, there's sure going to be scrutiny!

[Norm357]

Preacherman, the point I make is that if there were more than one of these .45 Lugers, the Mecca of firearm collectables, they would have come to light before now. However even I am wrong sometimes. Hard to believe isn't it. I think I am going to do a little research on the company selling this piece and report back forthwith.


Norm

[Wildalaska]

I have researched Lugers extensively over many years..I dont claim to be an expert but I smell fake.

By the way, I have seen Kaiser Wilhelms 9mm carbibne or one of them..in the German Hunting and Fishing Museum...

WildcaveatemptorAlaska

[Jim K]

Hi, Big G and guys,

The .45 Lugers made for the US trials were true Lugers, not Borchardt-Lugers.

There seem to be quite a few "exotic" Lugers turning up. I have a lot of reservations about a "GL" .45 Luger carbine. There is no evidence that Georg was entranced by the .45 cartridge and there was no interest in .45 pistols at the factory except for possible adoption by the U.S., which had previously indicated it did not want a carbine or shoulder stocked pistol.

I know a bit about machine work, and I think I could have a .45 Luger made by machining for less than a tenth of that million bucks. It wouldn't have to be perfect since comparison would be impossible and it would not have to actually function. The hardest single part to make would probably be the magazine.

Jim

[coldshot03/04]

Cool.... Id like to have one of those.;)

[Ala Dan]

(Laughing Loudly) a Clerke .32 caliber revolver! :uhoh:

Saw something on TV not long ago; but I don't remember
what kind'a gun it was, but the price tag was several
thousand $$$$$$$$$$. I think it was because of the
old firearms history; and not the gun its-self? Seems
like the damn thing belonged to "Buffalo" Bill Cody.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[New_comer]

An extensively engraved CZ-75 worth more than $5,000! :what:

[tex_n_cal]

I once saw a Webley Pattern revolver, made by Holland & Holland. IIRC it was a .38 target version, and deemed one-of-a-kind. It was $75,000, and I expect it was quite real.

[Mike Irwin]

Tex,

It probably wasn't made by Holland & Holland, but run through their custom work shops.

That in and of itself would be unusual, because H&H would do this, but normally only with rifles or shotguns.

During WW II most of the No 4 Mk I (T) sniper rifles used in Britain were fitted by Holland & Holland, and are so stamped on the barrel. Some were also supposedly fitted either by Evans or Rigby, I can't remember which.

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

Krausewerk of San Mateo here in the PRK is building .45 Lugers. They show up at local shows with a nice selection of gun treasure. I've talked to them, and asked "You're the guys building .45 Lugers, right?".

They allowed as "Yep." They're hand-built/machined frames and parts, and when I asked the going rate, they said "About $15,000." Seems semi-reasonable for one-off scratch-built guns. They'd make a carbine if you wanted one, I suppose. It's not that much of a stretch.

You can order one if'n ya want. I asked when Garry's article came out. They don't bring 'em to the shows, though, so I've never seen one. I wonder if there's enough of a market to justify a big production run so as to get the price down to THIS planet.


Interesting tidbit from Garry James' (http://www.krausewerk.com/return_45_luger.html) article, re theories of fakes: "Each Krausewerke gun will have the Georg Luger "GL" mark behind the rear sight, though." Makes you wonder, don't it?

Krausewerk Collectibles (http://www.krausewerk.com/[/url)


On the other hand:

I can't afford a .45 Luger, So I bought a .45 Broomhandle Mauser instead. It's as-new, from early (Serial # 19XX out of approx. 8500 built.) in the production run from Shansei Arsenal, built in 1929. It's not a Luger, But it's VERY pretty. Very nice work. Got it from I.A.R. for all of $1241, including 10% markup, fees, and tax.

That's a more reasonable price, plus it's a historical collectible. If I can get rich enough for one of the replica stock/holsters, ($300-ish typ.) there's my (Chinese-flavored. ;)) .45 Teutonic Carbine. Broomhandles are bizarre-enough looking to capture the feeling. All-in-all, a very good "substitute standard." I think it was unfired, as it's starting to work better after 200-ish rounds through it, it's action feels a bit less rough, and it's accumulating scuff-marks on the contacting surfaces it didn't have when it arrived. My gun is the cleanest specimen of the breed I've ever seen, and I've looked at about five of 'em. All were selling in excess of $2000, so I think I got lucky. These were in the Bluebook at $5000 for a 100% example a few years back, before I.A.R. imported their batch.

You can still get 'em, albeit they cost more now, and they don't have any of the "as-new" select-grade pieces any longer. My dealer sold another of the same grade as mine because it lived in his glass case for 10 days, and the last time he called 'em, they were out of the "extra-nice" ones.

I still want a .45 Luger, though, although not as much now that I've got the Mauser. I wonder what became of the Stoeger project. As they're an American company, you'd think it'd be a no-brainer to produce a clone of such a legendary gun for a reasonable price. Heck, they make stainless 9mm's, so why not? I'd buy one in a heartbeat, although I've heard some iffy stories about Stoeger quality.

[Detritus]

as HRG notes, the Krausewerk guns are all marked similar to the gun in question. and i too imagine that KW would gladly make a carbine version in .45

also the person that seems to be the "expert who inspected it" is a guy who makes a living at selling lugers that HE says have specific providence....

since i can't tell exactly where on teh site if anywhere (maybe i'm blind) the references to other overpriced "collector's guns" are coming from, what i have to say next maybe just plain based on my being stupid but.....

note also that if you try and backtrack the website, (ie go and look around on the main site the "luger" page was branched off of) you find that it has nothing to do with firearms, adn is instead a Porche owners forum of some sort.....!!!

this smells strongly of REALLY OLD fish to me....

[444]

I don't know one way or the other, and I am not really knowlegable about Lugers. But in reading about them, I have always heard that Ralph E. Shattuck is the Luger guru.

[Detritus]

the following is most likely simply my being a hardnosed little snot. but having narrowly escaped a few shaftings in my time, i've become a bit jaded and wary.

I have always heard that Ralph E. Shattuck is the Luger guru.

yeah, and if you ask a great many folks, (esp those on the 1911forum and ar15.com) who the "guru" for M-1As and Garands is they'll say Clint Mckee, and his guys at Fulton armory. and he's just barely (and some would say not even) above the level of scam artist.

being the "guru" on something does not mean that you are an honest human. esp if someone has promised you a cut of the profits in return for "vetting" the piece in question (i know it don't say that outright, but that's what it sure does look like to me)

maybe i'm paranoid but certain things about this situation/gun just don't seem kosher.

[Detritus]

umm, just a question/suggestion, but.....

Has anyone contacted Krausewerk and asked if THEY know anything about this??

and make sure that the most likely original (and now completely uninvolved) source of this gun if it IS a fake, has not in fact made a gun that could fit the desciption of the item in question, or at least is aware of the existence of said gun.

this not only provides a check of whether this gun could have originally come from KW, but if it DID, it allows Krausewerk to take action to prevent fraud being commited with thier product.

just an idea


edited for spelling

[Jmanwit]

I know that this thread has been dead a while, but I am actually friends with John V. Martz's Grand-daughter. I have yet to meet him, but I really would like too. Any more info on his stuff?

[earplug]

I seem to recall A Remington 51 based 45 ACP was produced for the Army's testing.
IMHO better then A luger.
As for A historic pistol, how about Winston Churchill's Mauser.

[saltydog452]

Or a Colt SAA 7.5 barrel, 45 Colt, serial number 1.

salty.

[Rembrandt]

Most expensive handgun is not the .45 cal Luger. If I recall correctly it's the "Sultan of Turkey" Colt SAA. Seem to remember it went for over 6 million several years ago. There are also a number of other exhibition Colts that run into the multi-million dollar catagory. One was done by Tiffany's and another had a single digit serial number.

[Michael Zeleny]

http://www.metmuseum.org/TOAH/images/hb/hb_1995.336.jpg
Colt Third Model Dragoon Percussion Revolver, ca. 1853, decorated by Gustave Young and presented by Samuel Colt to Sultan Abdülmecid I (http://www.metmuseum.org/TOAH/hd/decaa/hod_1995.336.htm)

Donated to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in 1995 by the late George Repaire, in lieu of being sold for $5.5M.

I will stake my left nut against the claim that the aforementioned .45 Luger carbine is genuine. To make it more interesting, I will stake the deed to my house against its passing a Magnaflux inspection.