USPSA Question regarding manual lowering of the hammer.

[IndianaBoy]

Greetings folks!

I have a quick question. I have been shooting USPSA for a few seasons since I graduated and moved to central Missouri for work.

I shoot a CZ 75B, and I had been shooting limited. So I was loading my magazines to full capacity and starting out cocked and locked.

If I wanted to shoot production, I think I need to load my mags to 10 and start with the gun in DA mode.

I have often (very carefully) manually decocked my CZ before. I used to carry it before I got my Sig and I carried it decocked to the half cock notch.

But how do I do this on a USPSA range? Is it a definite no-no. Is there an approved procedure?

There are a couple of ways I have practiced doing this with an empty gun. Thumb control, and also placing the weak hand thumb physically between the hammer and the firing pin, while controlling the hammer with my strong hand thumb.

Safety is always paramount in my mind and I certainly don't ever want to get tossed off the range(or worse) for an avoidable error.

Thanks!!!

Indy.

[1911NM]

All I can say is that at the local USPSA shoots here, if you're the shooter, load and engage whatever safety is available on your weapon on command of RO. If you are shooting a Glock, or DA it may just be one in the tube and internal safeties engaged.

Finish your course of fire, unload and show clear. Here, that means dry firing on an empty chamber so the RO can hear that hammer drop and know the chamber is empty.

Leave the weapon empty with the hammer down until you are called to shoot the next stage.

Hope this helps. Good luck, have fun, and be safe.

My first match this year is on the 8th of March, woohoooooo. :D

[eerw]

I shoot production with a CZ also.
there is no approved procedure..only do it safely.

I use two hands..using my left to control the hammer as it is lowered.
I have shot in several regional and national level matches..and have had no issues from CROs and ROs.

Welcome to production..

[Ankeny]

I shot a CZ75B in Production for about a year. Like eerw said, just safely lower the hammer. It's no big deal.

[Darth Muffin]

You'll only be decocking on a hot range, facing downrange, so it's safe. Remember that if you slip and the gun goes off during the load and make ready, you'll be DQ'd. If you're OK with that risk, go for it. If not, shoot limited :)

[Brenainn]

I am awful at this. I can't manually decock for the life of me. I don't know why. It's some kind of mental block, or something, but I've practiced safely MANY times and generally never can get a "safe" result! I know, that's bad... ;)

[Mt Shooter]

rule 8.3.7 If clear, Hammer down, Holster- After issuance of the command, the competitor is prohibited from firing. (rule 10.4.3 D.Q.) while continuing to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the the handgun.

8.3.7.1 states, self-loaders-release the slide and pull the trigger (without touching the hammer or decocker, if any.

does that help?
uspsa A53650
R.O.

[Jim Watson]

I understand that Matthew Mink and Angus Hobdell shoot CZ75s in Production, manually lowering the hammer all the way down (Half cock is not allowed.) because they can get a better trigger pull on the standard action than the 75BD with decocking lever.

I have shot a CZ75 "pre B" in IDPA SSP with manual decocking. I never ADed or even got close in two seasons of competition and practice. Just be careful how you handle the gun.

[Luis Leon]

Jim, I was under the impression that lowering the hammer to half-cocked on the CZ75b was enough. As fully down makes for a very long trigger pull, and is not the state the hammer is in for a DA first shot. I believe the half-cocked hammer is a design feature of the CZs. When the "unload and show clear" command is given in USPSA, I go full hammer down, but at the "load and make ready" command my gun is in the single action mode, and then I lower the hammer to the half-cocked position, which is a safe position to carry the firearm in. I hope I have explained myself clearly. I have not been called on the half-cocked and believe it is not illegal in competition, but I could be wrong.

regards,

Luis Leon

[Jim Watson]

I am no longer active in USPSA and do not know the fine details. I was reporting what I READ elsewhere. Sorry I cannot document it for you now. If you can get away with decocking to half cock, it is a definite advantage. I kept that CZ conveniently located at half cock for a house gun for some time.

[3 gun]

It is true. You must start with the hammer all the way down, not at half cock, when using a CZ 75. It is true that a good shooter can tell the difference between a CZ trigger job on a safety or de-cock model.

At "load" I use my weak hand thumb between the hammer and slide. I drop the hammer, release the trigger and lower to half cock then repeat to lower it fully. By using a two step method you greatly reduce the chance of an AD while loading. Using a primed but unloaded case I wasn't able to get the primer to pop even with the trigger held back and a clear drop from the half cock point. Just go slow and release the trigger before moving your weak hand thumb.

At "show clear", remove the mag, rack the slide, show the RO an empty camber, release the slide and pull the trigger to drop the hammer.

Practice both when you dry fire. DO NOT rush either "load" or "show clear" and you won't have any problems using a CZ75b with a safety in Production.

[Luis Leon]

3 gun,

Both of my decocker model CZs the 75bd and CZ75 P01 have decockers that lower the hammer to a full decock, which "is not" hammer fully down. The hammer fully down is a definite "disadvantage on that double action first shot, which is why CZs have what many are erroneously calling a the half-cocked notch on the hammer.

Hammer fully down is not the design intent of the CZ for that first double action shot. Though, I may be wrong.

regards,

Luis Leon

[3 gun]

The question to NROI;

In the 2008 rule book it now says that Production pistols
with exposed hammers must start fully decocked. Some models
(like CZ) decock to a half cocked position. Does the new
rule require that the hammer then be lowered manually to a
full rest? The old rules simply stated that the first shot
had to be DA, not that the hammer had to be fully lowered
as the new rule would seem to suggest.

So I guess the question really is what is fully decocked?
And will it vary depending on the make and model of pistol
being used?



The answer;

Fully decocked is all the way down, half cocked is just that. So it would
have to be lowered manually if the decocker did not bring it all the way down.

John Amidon
VP USPSA
Director NROI

As your CZ stops at a half cocked notch when you use the decocker you will have to lower it to full rest to use it in USPSA Production. I liked stopping at half cock for the safety margin it added to the LaMR. The new rules are more in line with IPSC which is only my guess to why the change was made.

[Deavis]

you can't engage the manual saftey if the hammer isn't in the notch or fully cocked. So how are you supposed to meet the rule requiring the saftey to be engaged. Maybe it is just my gun that doesn't do it but I don't think so.

[eerw]

in the 08 rulebook in the Appendix D4 for production, it says
" Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal.

nothing said about the safety being engaged for production division.


also on BE.
its reported that Amidon has sent the issue of what is fully decocked to the BOD.

"John just responded that the BOD is the governing body on the rules and he has kicked the decision up to them. He said that he wasn't sure if it would result in an NROI interpretation or not but that he'll give me an update when the decision is made."

[eerw]

posted on BE.com..

New ruling that should be on the NROI Interpreatations page soon.

Manufacturers have installed decockers to take the hammer safely to a position that is deemed safe, therefore; the term fully decocked is the position that the hammer rest at once the decocker has been used. Altering a factory installed decocker to bring the hammer to rest at less than a half cocked position is not allowed.

John Amidon
VP USPSA
Director NROI