[boalex207]

stacking=alternating FMJ and JHP rounds in your magazine or cylinder

What's the current conventional wisdom on this ? Pros ? Cons ? Recommended or not for certain calibers or platforms ?

[Gun Slinger]

Seems like a 'solution' in search of a 'problem'.

In all honesty, you'd most likely be best off by loading up with any one of the many premium grade SD loads that are available through the major manufacturers and considering it "good enough".

GS

[Jeff F]

Nope I don't do it but for one exception, I keep a .357 in my truck at work and we have a problem with rattlesnakes in the summer time. First two up are snake loads the next four are 158 grain JHP, my carry load.

[RyanM]

Bad idea. You should always know what your ammunition will do. I wouldn't even advocate keeping one type of round in the chamber and something else in the mag. Pick one, and stick with it. For calibers .380 and down, the hottest flatnose FMJ or hardcast lead you can find. Above .380, a JHP that meets FBI penetration requirements.

[WoofersInc]

I have read several times about keeping hollowpoints in the first mag that is in the gun and then having at least one of your back-up mags loaded with ball. The thought being that if the fight lasts long enough that you have to reload, the bad guy may be behind cover at this point, and you may need to shoot through it.
I usually carry 2 spare mags. The gun is loaded with HP and so is the first spare. The last spare is loaded with ball for just this reason.

[the naked prophet]

For most calibers, you should use a proven jacketed hollowpoint load from the factory - something like Gold Dots, Silvertips, Corbon, etc.

For small calibers, .32 and below, you can't find a load which will expand and still penetrate 12 inches of gelatin (the FBI minimum). Expansion is great, but penetration is necessary. So if I'm carrying a small caliber gun, I carry FMJ to make sure there's enough penetration.

The question comes when you're carrying a caliber in between, like .380 auto. There are loads which will expand and penetrate around 10 inches, but that's not really good enough for me. In this caliber, it may be useful to stack or stagger the ammo - a JHP for expansion and a wider wound track, and then a FMJ for deeper penetration.

[RyanM]

I have read several times about keeping hollowpoints in the first mag that is in the gun and then having at least one of your back-up mags loaded with ball. The thought being that if the fight lasts long enough that you have to reload, the bad guy may be behind cover at this point, and you may need to shoot through it.

Modern, well-designed JHPs will penetrate well after shooting through common concealment, like a car door or drywall. Some even expand, still. The FBI tests specify quite a few items of concealment.

Actual cover, like concrete or something, will not be shot through by an FMJ any more than a JHP.

Even the crappy JHPs will typically just behave like an FMJ as far as shooting through barriers is concerned, so all you're really doing is maybe saving money by keeping your spares loaded with FMJs.

[KD5NRH]

I do it with home defense shotguns, normal 00 or #4 buck rounds up front, ending with either magnum slugs or magnum 00. I figure anything that can take 3-4 loads of buckshot at 15 yards max, really needs a slug.

Handguns and rifles may have spare mags, speedloaders, etc. of something different, but each full load is consistent within itself.

[trinydex]

people do alternating slug and buck shot in shotguns right? stop 'em, kill 'em kinda thing?

[wabbles]

Stack away my friend. I have tried this in several of my handguns with no ill affects. I personally only stack in my .380 and in my larger pistols when I am backpacking.

[YZR]

I stack in my .380 as well with no problems.

[wally]

I do it to test my reloads for POA/POI and recoil compared to the factory JHP I'll be using.

Beyond this the only other reason it might make sense is to troubleshoot feed problems.

I've heard it called "Dutch load".

--wally.

[wnycollector]

I dont stack in my pistols. The mags will be either JHP or FMJ only. I DO stack in my shotgun 00 buck and centurion multi defense (one .65 cal ball and 6 #1 buck!!!).

[1911 guy]

I do sometimes, however, carry a load of ball. If I carry only one reload, it's JHP. If I'm going into known Injun Territory, I'll carry two reloads of JHP and one of ball. Haven't done that in a long time. Usually one or two reloads of JHP now.

I do agree that with modern JHP design, carrying ball in anything but a light pistol (.380 and smaller) is not needed.

[dogtown tom]

I think the real question is: "in what order do you alternate the rounds?"

Is it: HP, FMJ, HP, FMJ, HP, FMJ....

OR

Is it: FMJ, HP, FMJ, HP, FMJ, HP...

OR
Is it: Powerball, Wolf FMJ, Silvertip HP, WWB FMJ, Glaser Safety Slug, Blazer FMJ, Gold Dot, EXTREME SHOCK Fang Face Ninja HP, Hydrashock.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[spwenger]

The problem with this theory (of alternating types of projectiles, whether in handguns or in shotguns) is that the immediate facts may not match the theory, How do you know whether at any given instant in a fight you will need a bullet that will expand (to increase tissue damage and limit penetration) or deliver maximum penetration through barriers?

As has already been pointed out, the best bet is to select a good hollowpoint (for handgun ammunition) that offers the best combination of attributes that seem to meet your circumstances, If penetration of barriers, including auto glass, is a concern, spend the extra money on Cor-Bon's DPX, which, at least in gelatin tests, offers good expansion even after traversing four layers of denim, and will usually penetrate automobile bodies, so long as it doesn't strike structural reinforcement.

As to shotguns, learn to perform an ammo swap as you work the action. Load your favoriite buckshot for close range (indoor use) and Forster slugs for long range (outdoor use). Unless you are using special barrels, chokes and/or ammo, it's fairly difficult to keep all of your pellets on and in your intended, human target much beyond seven yards. (Hitting the outer edges of a B-27 silhouette target with pellets at 15 yards is deceptive - many real people are not that large, are not thick at the edges, may not be facing you squarely and are not likely to be standing still if you need to shoot them.) Use of a storage device, such as a Side Saddle, keeps the alternate type fo ammo close at hand.

[The Lone Haranguer]

I don't see the point, myself.

[SaxonPig]

Are you preparing for self-defense or combat?

Engaging barricaded targets probably doesn't happen too often in SD scenarios.

If someone threatening me takes cover I withdraw.

I ain't the cops. Let them deal with the guy hiding behind the brick wall.

[Pat-inCO]

The purpose of a handgun is to stay alive while you get your rifle.

[bubbaturbo]

The purpose of a handgun is to stay alive while you get your rifle.

I don't get the relevance to the question in the original post and I sure don't understand why this gets repeated over and over on gun forums since it is so obviously incorrect. If you stopped at "The purpose of a handgun is to stay alive", I might agree. Most of the time when I (and probably most of us) have a handgun, I am not anywhere near a rifle. Is it because that Thunder Ranch guy said it so it must be true?

[Geronimo45]

Is it because that Thunder Ranch guy said it so it must be true?
I think its purpose is to reinforce that handguns ain't much in the way of power. It'd take a 200-mile running gunfight to get me back to my rifle right now. :p

As per the topic, I don't do it. Might load shotshells as the first round out of the gun in the bush, however.

If normal folks were allowed AP ammo, there might be a very good reason behind mixing loads. As it is, probably not enough difference between penetration of the two to make much difference. Pick your (lead) poison and run with it.

[RyanM]

If you stopped at "The purpose of a handgun is to stay alive", I might agree. Most of the time when I (and probably most of us) have a handgun, I am not anywhere near a rifle. Is it because that Thunder Ranch guy said it so it must be true?

Your rifle is at home. The purpose of a handgun is to let you live long enough to go home, where your rifle is.

Or, if you don't even own a rifle yet, your rifle is in a gun store, waiting for you to buy it. The pistol is so you live long enough to go home, get money, go to the store, and then buy the rifle, at some point in the future.

Makes sense, right? :p

[conwict]

It's 4 a.m. Where is your rifle?

[bubbaturbo]

Makes sense, right?

Nope. Not a bit.

[The Lone Haranguer]

Whichever round comes up in the magazine queue, the chances are 50-50 that it will not be the one you wanted just then. ;)

[orionengnr]

Generally speaking, "stacking" or alternating rounds means that you don't have:
a) a clear goal in mind, or;
b) an understanding of what your rounds can/should do..

Make an informed decision, and go with it. Change your mind as many times as necessary. But stick with a program.

[dewidmt]

I stack in my Kel-Tec P32. This is because of the rounds design, it's short, so JHP's will cause rimlock if the entire magazine is loaded with them. So the chamber is loaded with a JHP, first round in the mag is JHP, the rest are FMJ. Any other caliber, good quality JHP all the way.

[Bad Penny 03]

Best left in the comic books , where it came from.
This one just kills me.

Pick the right load for the job.

This always seemed really asinine to me, at least in most cases.

Whichever round comes up in the magazine queue, the chances are 50-50 that it will not be the one you wanted just then.

Precisely, +2

Who says you will have time do anything but shoot, anyway.

Lets see "He's in a truck, now... (at least he was 10 seconds ago) so maybe I should use the ball ammo that has 15% enhanced penetration in car doors (well maybe my JHPs would penetrate this model of car door...that is if the window riser mech isnt half way up (in which case neither will work as well as I want) ...or what if he has a thick leather jacket on, and its a tuesday, and he has green socks on, then I want the RBCD ammo...no wait..."

"Oh, darn...I just got shot in the side of the head cuz I was busy checking which ammo I have in the chamber just now..."

I would like to see examples of someone walking away from a gun fight saying "damn, I'm sure glad I used 9 kinds of ammo in my magazines, I never would have made it with out JHP - FMJ - JHP "

Yeah, not gonna happen...

Just comic book logic.

[chauncey]

i keep a lot of autos at condition 3. most misfeeds are the first round, loaded off of the mag (because the slide is released by hand, not mechanical action). for this reason, I load the first round in the mag as ball.

[American_Pit_Bull]

I stack JHP on JHP until I can't squeeze anymore into the mag.

[mnw42]

Ball, Ball, Ball, Ball, Tracer, Ball...... oh right this is for a hand gun sorry....

[Tropical Buzz]

My carry gun is a Glock 25 (.380) with 15 round mags. Still undecided after extensive research into the expansion vs. penetration/FMJ vs. HP debate, I decided to do my own ballistic testing using large local pork carcasses. The readily available ammo down here for that caliber is:
* 90gr. Speer Gold Dot
* 91gr. Wolf FMJ ball
* 95gr. Winchester FMJ flat nose.

All shooting was done at 7 yards.

The Gold Dots - surprisingly for this caliber - expanded fully and penetrated an average of 8".

The Winchester penetrated slightly more, up to 10", deformed with minimal expansion and lost both lead and jacket fragments throughout the wound channel.

The Wolf , advertised at 1010fps (compared to 990 and 955 for the Speer and the Winchester) blasted clean through 11"+ of swine every single time.

All rounds broke leg bones surprisingly well, the Speer and the Wolf doing the most damage. Carefully dissected wound channels showed little difference between the Winchester and the Wolf, except for penetration. The chanel made by the Gold Dots was significantly larger and much more ragged than the others.
I own a popular restaurant/lounge and nightspot and my primary risk is ambush and robbery late at night on my way home. Experience and statistics indicate that the perpetrators are likely to be wearing denim or sport type jackets over light clothing and driving a small, older Japanese car. Based on all that, I decided to stack my mags for a combination of penetration and expansion in double tap-bang 3 round bursts of Gold Dot-Gold Dot-Wolf. In multiple burst practice drills, I can usually keep track of the rounds by thinking "tap-tap-bang" as I engage the targets. In standing drills, the first two go COM and the third into the head. Running and ducking, all three go COM.
If I could legally carry a larger caliber down here all that would, IMHO, be unnecessary.

[W.E.G.]

Candy-striping is for candy canes.

I drink my whiskey straight.

[Tropical Buzz]

yo-ho-ho.

[wabbles]

Tropical Buzz. Thanks for the informative and well thought out post. You hit the nail on the head when you stated that you practice triple shots. Other posts indicated that if you stack there is a 50% chance that the "wrong" bullet will be in the chamber. Well if you triple tap, problem solved.

Who would attempt to stop an attack by only taking one shot? Shoot until the attack has been stopped.

[Bad Penny 03]

I would have to ask: How is the problem solved when the target is usually moving ?
There is no guarantee that the intended round will hit the vital, intended target the prescribed number of times for an "ideal" stop.

What happens when you have to reload on the move.
Do you have to shoot four rounds for that burst and 3 the next ? Jack out the last round in the chamber ? Only shoot to lock-back ?

Do you shoot multiple targets 3 times each or once or twice each and then "back for seconds" as conventional wisdom preaches ?

The best approach, [sadly] something that isn't available to all participating in the thread, is to use an effective caliber and load for every shot.

Agreed....as the saying goes [paraphrasing] "shoot until your target thinks he's dead"

[drbironhead]

Carry a 357sig so u don't have to stack a thing

[Ala Dan]

I don't alternate rounds within a weapons magazine or cylinder~! :eek:
I usually just stick with a premium brand JHP that works well in all of
my weapons~! ;) :D

[-terry]

Dogtown,

I stack my 9mm rounds in alphabetical order.

[grendelbane]

Most people are way over-thinking this one. While cocktail loads may not be the best thing since wine in a box, they are certainly not the worst thing.

If tested for reliability, and to ensure similar point of impact, stacked loads, or cocktail loads will serve their owner just fine. Of course, so would most quality JHPs.

You don't bother counting to see what type of round is coming up. You just shoot until the threat ceases to threaten. Which is exactly what you should do if all the cartridges in your magazine are identical.

Its not rocket surgery. It neither greatly increases or decreases the ballistic effectiveness of your pistol. It is personal choice, and like a lot of the choices that we make, has very little significance in the greater scheme of things.

[tblt]

I do in my shotgun 1 slug and 4 00 buck
My 38 is also,the one under the hammer FMJ the other 4 110 gr. hydra shok.Why first 4 HP last one FMJ just in case I need a little more penitration then I will reload with 5 winchester JHP I keep in my pocket.Also I still have this fear that it might go off one day and the FMJ is pointing at my groing area instead of a delf defence round.I know this can' happen with newer pistols with a firing pin block it's just in my head.

[gp911]

I only stack if I don't have a full mag worth of hollowpoints left. The backup mag is full of ball ammo because it shouldn't have feed issues, but I really think it wouldn't matter.

gp911

[OMGWTFBBQ]

If I'm out in the woods where rattlers are common I load the first two chambers with snake shot, does that count :D?

Seems like a 'solution' in search of a 'problem'.

+1

[JadeRaven]

I would just stick to having different magazines of different ammo. But that's me.

[Bad Penny 03]

My 38 is also,the one under the hammer FMJ the other 4 110 gr. hydra shok.Why first 4 HP last one FMJ just in case I need a little more penitration then I will reload with 5 winchester JHP I keep in my pocket.Also I still have this fear that it might go off one day and the FMJ is pointing at my groing area instead of a delf defence round.I know this can' happen with newer pistols with a firing pin block it's just in my head.

Yeah, I never thought of that...I might want max penetration in case my pistol/revolver spontaneously discharges and blows my nuts off...LOL!!!!!!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Wow, thanks dude..I needed that.

I only stack if I don't have a full mag worth of hollowpoints left. The backup mag is full of ball ammo because it shouldn't have feed issues, but I really think it wouldn't matter.

Does this mean :the extras mag is half ball because you didn't have JHPs left ?

OK, I can see that.

[mljdeckard]

Ok, did you:

Fire 200 rounds of EACH round you are using to ensure your pistol will cycle it reliably? AND

Shoot every possible variation you are considering to make sure your gun will chew through it with no hiccups?

This is your life, it's not the time to start experimenting. If anything, the only variation I might see is different loads in different mags, but even in that case, you have to really consider, what it is my best defensive round won't accomplish in the first place? Trying to split hairs between different premium JHPs, FMJs, trick loads, etc won't yield good results in the real world.

[Mad Magyar]

The top 2 or 3 rds always with PD ammo on all my calibers. Mostly Win. SilverTips......Everything is rotated by using the same routine on the range...I figure if I miss or can't finish the job with the first few, the remaining won't make much difference....:o

[jason10mm]

I think most of this stuff is overthinking. It is more applicable to folks using rifles and machine guns who might have to deal with armored vehicles, armored troops, or soft-skinned vehicles.

For self defense pistols, you can just use the best you can afford. You have to have a round that will penetrate far enough to stop a threat, expansion is just gravy. I don't even bother worrying about clothing. All it will do is maybe turn my expensive hollowpoints into slightly less expensive FMJs. And no pistol round can reliably penetrate body armor, so no need to convern myself with that either.

Mousegun ammo is too anemic to be concerned with anything other than penetration.

I don't even worry about stacking shotgun loads. At in house distances birdshot and buck will hit about the same and I don't think the over-penetration risk is much different. Slugs are on the side saddle. If I thought I would need them ready in the magazine tube (long distance shots or vehicle penetration) I'd just use a rifle in the first place.

MINDSET, tactics, skill, then gun and ammo type at the every end so long as it is reliable and penetrates 8 inches.

[Huddog]

I don't know if there is any reason to do this. I never have and don't see a reason to do so. In my LEO career I had friends who carried their third mag loaded with hardball, we carried 9mm and had a total of 42 rounds. By the way, at 4:00am my rifle is within reach.

[orionengnr]

i keep a lot of autos at condition 3.

Well, there's the first problem...:rolleyes:

[Hardtarget]

When I first got my shotgun for HD it was loaded like that. The load was in a "meaner and nastier" as it went. The load was #8 bird shot to 00 buck. For several years now its just been straight 00 buck.
Mark.

[chauncey]

Well, there's the first problem...

wrong thread.

that horse is DEAD.

and if you don't like carrying that way, don't. just don't tell the Mossad they're stupid, and let me know about the next time you draw your 1911 and put a fmj through your butt-cheek and calf, when drawing in a hurry. a fellow grunt in the USMC did that, and got NJP in addition to his injury, for "destruction of gov't property".

really made an impression on me, and a couple holes in him. (entry, exit, entry, exit; evacuate bowels)

[Coronach]

Find the right load for your situation (caliber, perceived threat, individual gun's feeding preferences), test that load for reliability and accuracy. Once you've done all of that, load your magazines full of that round and be done with it. It really is that simple.

Leave the mixed magazine loadouts for gangbangers, who somehow manage to take a full-cap magazine and load it to capacity, with no two rounds alike. We call this "Ghetto-ready". ;)

Mike

[Trempel]

I stack JHP on JHP until I can't squeeze anymore into the mag.
Same here. I have three pistols in 9mm that get carried on regular basis, and all three are loaded with the same JHP ammo. I never need to guess about what's in the chamber of any of my pistols.

[Coronach]

and if you don't like carrying that way, don't. just don't tell the Mossad they're stupid, and let me know about the next time you draw your 1911 and put a fmj through your butt-cheek and calf, when drawing in a hurry. a fellow grunt in the USMC did that, and got NJP in addition to his injury, for "destruction of gov't property".Training issue! Also an obedience one- he was supposed to carry a certain way, and didn't. But, if you're carrying in condition one you have to know what you're doing, and have the proper equipment for it (and, in his case, permission).

Mike

[Bad Penny 03]

Training issue!

Yeah, I know I don't want to work anywhere near this joker while he's willy nilly-popping off rounds because he can't manage to do something as basic as draw his weapon safely.

Find the right load for your situation (caliber, perceived threat, individual gun's feeding preferences), test that load for reliability and accuracy. Once you've done all of that, load your magazines full of that round and be done with it. It really is that simple.

Well, for some of us I guess...

Leave the mixed magazine loadouts for gangbangers, who somehow manage to take a full-cap magazine and load it to capacity, with no two rounds alike. We call this "Ghetto-ready".

Ghetto-Ready...I love it.

:D

[Flopsy]

In the Mossy I keep a turkey load as the first shell. If I can get away with a maim instead of annihilating an intruder, that's preferable. If the situation appears to be more dire, I can just pump it out and proceed with the 00.

[Tropical Buzz]

I don't really care that much about keeping track of the rounds. As I stated, because my carry gun is only a .380, I load for a combination of JHP effectiveness and ball penetration in multi shot bursts which is what I train for based on my most likely defensive scenario. If I was carrying a more powerful gun, I would stick with a single JHP load. At home (concrete walls) I use 00 buckshot.

[Bad Penny 03]

In the Mossy I keep a turkey load as the first shell. If I can get away with a maim instead of annihilating an intruder, that's preferable.

It will get you sued.
Because the perp or his family will get representation based on the fact you didn't have to fire to begin with. He will get on the stand and lie his way to a million dollar settlement.

You need to have no other choice but to shoot and kill the person or the court will view it as an unnecessary use of violence.

In which case YOU may be charged.

Wounding shots (dangerous to you) and "warning" shots (dangerous to others in the area) are both in this category.

Why would you wound someone thats trying to harm or kill you they will ask ?
If he's a threat why leave him capable of continuing to do harm ?

Examine the law carefully before choosing a strategy.