[brentfoto]

I have a Remington 870 as primary for home defense.

It can presently hold only four in the magazine and one in the chamber (standard version).

Do note that if shotgun is with hammer 'cocked' with no round in the chamber one must press and hold the Action Bar Lock in order to safely pump the slide and cycle the action for the first round (there's another way it can be done that is not recommended, but I don't want to sidetrack my own thread!).

Anyway, assume the 870 is about 6 foot distance away from reach.

What is the best 'ready' condition to have it in and why?

'Best' is defined to mean the very best condition for tactical combat without a serious compromise in safety. Take it from there.

TRY CHOICES USING LIVE ROUNDS AT YOUR OWN RISK; IT'S VERY DANGEROUS. RECOMMEND USE SNAP CAPS ONLY IF GOING TO TRY ANY OF THESE CHOICES!

[brentfoto]

b. thomas-

So, correct me if I am wrong:

Given your vote, you have to do three things before you can fire your shotgun:

1. Press action bar lock;
2. Pump slide while holding action bar lock;
3. disengage safety.

Why is this method the best, b. thomas? It seems like 'a lot' to do. :)

And subsequent shots you do not press the action bar lock. hhhmmm.... could be confusing to some... I don't know...

[Regolith]

Why is this method the best, b. thomas? It seems like 'a lot' to do.

Because it's the "safest" condition. Might not be the most "tactical," however,

Full magazine, no round in chamber, safety ON, trigger tripped makes it so you don't have to engage the action bar, but you have to pull the trigger on a shotgun that has live rounds in its magazine. Granted, you can (should?) triple check the chamber before doing this, but it's not something I feel comfortable doing in my apartment. Only time I dry fire my gun is when it is completely empty of all live ammo and there is none in the room with me, because I'm a bit paranoid about that. YMMV.

Having the safety off or on doesn't matter, IMO, one way or another. I leave mine on, but that's just a matter of habit. It can be disengaged at the same time the action bar lock is being pressed.

I'm also not a big fan of leaving a round in the chamber. If there is a round in the chamber, the safety is ON. Always. Doesn't come off until the gun needs to be used. Lots of things in a house to snag a trigger if you're not careful.

As I mentioned before, I live in an apartment, so I tend to be super paranoid about ND's, which changes my circumstances. Others may have different circumstances and hence may choose to store their gun differently.

[brentfoto]

Regolith-

Thank you for your vote and your comments.

So 'best' means 'safest' in your view?

It's possible to trip the trigger first, though, before loading the magazine.

[Fred Fuller]

Here, the 'house guns' (Remington 870s) are all in the same condition-

-magazines loaded one round short with 00 buckshot

-Sidesaddles loaded with Brenneke KO slugs

-chamber empty, hammer cocked and action locked, safety on

The idea is that if you happen to need a slug first up, it's easy to slip one out of the Sidesaddle into the magazine and chamber it by running the bolt. If buckshot is called for, just run the bolt. It's easier to get rounds into the magazine of an 870 when the action is locked, and safer in our opinion to keep the chamber empty except when action stations are called.

TRAINING and PRACTICE make what might seem complicated simple, and speed up the process as well. "Load one shoot one" drills are especially effective in this regard. No matter what the condition of the gun, the condition (skillset) of the operator is vastly more important.

YMMV on all of the above of course...

lpl/nc

[waterhouse]

Mine are "cruiser ready," (option 3 in the poll) mainly because this is how I learned when younger, drilled with and practiced in law enforcement, and I'm comfortable with it.

Rack the slide and go. This has nothing to do with the action making noise to scare someone off.

[flip180]

I'd go with the mag loaded one round down, chamber empty with safety off.

Flip.

[whistler]

you can put the hammer down then load the mag.

[brentfoto]

Lee Lapin Here, the 'house guns' (Remington 870s) are all in the same condition-

-magazines loaded one round short with 00 buckshot

-Sidesaddles loaded with Brenneke KO slugs

-chamber empty, hammer cocked and action locked, safety on

The idea is that if you happen to need a slug first up, it's easy to slip one out of the Sidesaddle into the magazine and chamber it by running the bolt. If buckshot is called for, just run the bolt. It's easier to get rounds into the magazine of an 870 when the action is locked, and safer in our opinion to keep the chamber empty except when action stations are called.

TRAINING and PRACTICE make what might seem complicated simple, and speed up the process as well. "Load one shoot one" drills are especially effective in this regard. No matter what the condition of the gun, the condition (skillset) of the operator is vastly more important.

YMMV on all of the above of course...



...
flip180 I'd go with the mag loaded one round down, chamber empty with safety off.

Flip.

In a home defense situation, why would anyone, especially at nighttime, load mag one round down?

That limits you to 3 out of 5 possible shots, unless you have the presence of mind (and can stop "shaking" enough) to load a slug in the magazine just as you're picking up the weapon. This coupled with all the things one must do otherwise, would be a bit much, don't you think?

[average_shooter]

...why would anyone, especially at nighttime, load mag one round down?

That limits you to 3 out of 5 possible shots...

If it is the actual 870 HD version of the shotgun we're talking about then the mag holds six total. One round down means 5 in the mag, which wouldn't be too limiting. Also, like Lee said, the "1 round down" method leaves room to make the first round fired something other than what is presently loaded. Or not, depending on the situation.

[brentfoto]

Sorry, I used the HD abbreviation to describe a Home Defense situation and not a model number.

Assume facts as given in the OP remarks, #1, above. Four (4) rounds in mag + one (1) as five (5) maximum.

[caltek1911]

I load 5 in the mag, 1 in the chamber, and a full side saddle of 00 buck. I live in an apt so I don't think slugs are a good idea for me.

[brentfoto]

caltek1911-

With one in the chamber and the mag full, is the safety ON or OFF for you?

I don't see why you did not vote for either first or second alternative in the poll, given what you have written.

[brentfoto]

Look here for a post by Glenn Bartley in a somewhat related thread. You may find some of this off-topic but I think it may be somewhat relevant to the poll.

The guy cites his experience as 28 years in LE:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4252508#post4252508


Glenn Bartley Quote:
Just imagine carrying a Remington 12 gauge in your vehicle: safety on or off, slide/bolt forward, on an empty chamber, trigger has been pulled, four in the tube. If you know your Remington 870s, tell me is this safe in your opinion. Not in my personal opinion, but this is how some people have decided is the correct way to carry an 870 in a vehicle. It would be quite easy for soemthing to knock the slide back and forward again, such as a faulty shotgun carrier in a vehicle traveling on a very bumpy road, and easier still to fire the shotgun because as you should know, the Remington 870 (at least older models) do not need to have the trigger pulled to make them fire. Yet someone, in their infinite wisdom, has chosen this as the preferred method of carry in a vehicle in a law enforcement agency. Even if a round were not soemhow chambered, just the slide coming open means that when you pick up the 870, it is very likely you would inadvertatly chamber a round in the heat of the moment in which you might need the weapon. Scary, isn't it. But yet law enforcement officers are trained in such unsafe methods, and they are trained that such is safe. So how would an officer who followed such policy, one that he was instructed was the safe way to carry, be negligent if there was an unintended discharge of such a weapon that was caused by this type of policy in combination with a bumpy road and possibly faulty carrier? My bet is though, if you heard of some officer carrying like that, many of you would condemn the officer, as you just did the other officer, without knowing the facts. Sure someone is probably wrong, and while it may be the officer, it also may not be the officer, or it could just simply be a malfunction that caused the discharge

[brentfoto]

Thus far, 30 people have responded to the poll, with an apparent wide divergence of opinions. I think it a good exercise.

I'm personally trying to sort out and separate emotional response to a ND or AD from logical way to have it.

It seems the consequences of a discharge are so devastatingly fatal - should that enter into the equation, or not?

Otherwise, why should it not be just like a pistol with round in the chamber, with safety on (or off)?

Why avoid chambering a round (and hence, 'losing' a round)?

Seems ALL the cops are ordered NOT to chamber a round until ready to pull trigger, or near that place in time.

What about YOU? What are YOUR views?

[whistler]

if you have to work the slide would not the sound give your position away or give the bad guy a chance to react?

[Turkey Obsessed]

What about ME? and MY views? Where do you live that causes you to consider all of these possibilities? Here is my preferred "choice". Locked and loaded in a gun safe where only YOU have the key. Practice getting into the safe fast. Get in tune to your surroundings. Listen for odd noises or strange behaviors around you. I can get to my safe and open it faster than I would be able to fumble with a round and monkeying with actions. Pistol beats long gun for readiness, but nothing clears a room like buck shot. back to my original question, where do you live that causes you to be "on guard" all night? Move to a smaller town. You are still more likely to die in a car wreck on your way to or from work than you are to encounter a break-in, let alone die from one. Be ready, but remember that the odds are already in your favor. Get a reputation. Get a dog. I have three dogs and everyone around me knows this...from the mail lady to friends of relatives. Nobody in their right mind would break into my home. My house is well protected with three dogs (two American Staffordshires and a Lab) and a pretty well armed owner with the love for his family.

Gun safe, quick key is for me. Right next to the phone where 911 is on speed dial. Call and leave the line open- you don't have to talk and they will show up....esp. if they hear SOMETHING in the background.

Oh, yeah...less lethal or rubber shot will bring any man to his knees and keep you out of prison. As far as being quiet, I couldn't do that. Loud and proud are the survivors.

[jgo296]

i say keep it full and chambered safety on incase bad guy on top of you before you are prepared
if you hear bad guy and are going to confront go ahead and pump it once so he hears that wonderful noise

[Turkey Obsessed]

The faults of the 870 is one reason why most law and military purchase Mossy 500's.

[flip180]

"In a home defense situation, why would anyone, especially at nighttime, load mag one round down?"

I load one down to keep deformation to the loaded shell to a minimum due to the spring perssure. I know it's a long shot that that will even happen and one should constantly rotate out rounds but evey little bit helps. I'm not too worried about being one round down. I have a 20" barrel on my 870 with a factory LE three round extension. There's six in the tube ready to go. If that doesn't work, the AR is next up in line with three 30 round mags ready to go. Then there's the G19 with a 17 round G17 magazine and lastly the G26 with an 11 round mag (10 round mag with a +1 extension). All loaded up with Black Hills 124gr.+p XTP HP's.

Flip

[Turkey Obsessed]

Are you preparing for a war? Remember that humans go down easy (except for my wife) and the deformation created by spring pressure will have no effect on the shot raking through an assailant's body! Just a thought.....one round should do the trick. Maybe two if you are a bad shot or have a bus load of burglars waiting for you.

[mljdeckard]

I do not normally say that it is a good idea to keep a gun in 'less-than-ready' condition, but this is a situation where I still have young kids in the house, and I think that having the chamber empty and the slide locked is the best way to prevent meddling from kids who are still too young to teach safety rules. They are too small to hold the slide lock and work the slide at the same time, regardless of how smart they are. The same is true of the M-1 Carbine I keep handy for my wife, with two mags on the pouch on the butt of the rifle, it is highly unlikely that they can open the pouch, correctly insert the magazine, and charge the handle. Let me emphasize that I am working against their PHYSICAL limitations. I suffer no illusions about their intellectual limitations.

While I don't recommend keeping the chamber empty to allow you to rack the slide and make noise to scare someone away, the benefit does exist. In a house with small kids, it's the compromise I am willing to live with.

[brentfoto]

Firepower!-

You are the only one thus far to select the first one.

What is the trigger pull on a cocked Rem 870?

My situation - I just have the shotgun leaning against the wall on an angle, muzzle pointing upward. I've done that with my Air Rifle and had it slide down to the floor.

How would you have yours given you have chosen #1, and isn't that selection somewhat 'risky'? ;)

[fchavis]

After a range trip or just for regular maintanance, my 870 is completely unloaded. After a cleaning and a function check and then checking the tube and chamber a few times, I dry fire, then load the tube: chamber empty, unlocked. This shotgun isn't kicking around in a vehicle or anything; if it were a vehicle weapon, I'd keep it locked with an empty chamber.

[brentfoto]

mljdecard-

With small kids you still voted as you described but with safety OFF. Why?

Notwithstanding your situation with kids, if you did not have them in the house at all would your answer differ, and, if so, please explain.

[sm]

For my needs, for my settings:
Round chambered, full mag.
I only run slugs, so all I have to do is snick-n-snock.

[Ala Dan]

Full magazine, NO round in chamber, safety off, trigger tripped~! ;)

[flip180]

"Are you preparing for a war?"

Sorry to make it sound that way. I'm not one to have loaded guns stashed around the house but If I'm going to have them then they're going to be loaded. I keep the 870, the G26 and the AR in the safe with an electronic key pad. The G19 sits on top of the safe in a gun vault also with an electronic key pad. If I botch getting into the safe to get the shotty and it locks me out then I'm going for the G19 next. Now back to the subject. If you only have the option to load four rounds in the tube then I'd suggest you have some sort of ammo supply that can go with you either it being a sidesaddle or a dump pouch that you can throw over your shoulder full with whatever round you choose to defend you house with. Then if you have time after you rack it, top it off. And most of all, GET TRAINING! I took Louis Awerbuck's Stage-1 shotgun class with my 870 with out an extension. You are not handicapped with a standard capacity 870. I just want six round ready to go. I'm mot saying my way is the right way but that's how I have my gun set up and the reason's why it's set up that way.

Flip.

[The Deer Hunter]

I keep my 870 in my closet next to my safe. Its usually unloaded. If people in the house are going away, I get that "feeling" or something just doesn't seem right I may load the magazine and/or keep it next to my bed. I know that thieves target houses when the occupants are out of town, so in case any thieves targeting my house aren't aware that I am home I can be ready.

[brentfoto]

So far, it appears the leaders are:

1. full mag, round in chamber, safety ON; and

2. full mag, no round in chamber, safety OFF, trigger tripped.

Interesting!

This is also interesting because it appears LE, at least while in their cruisers, do neither! They apparently do #2, above, in this post, but with safety ON!

Keep the votes and comments coming!

[RyanM]

The only ones I'd choose are option 3 (cruiser ready) or option 2. But I'd prefer cruiser ready. No round in the chamber means if your house catches on fire and rounds start cooking off, they just blow up in the tube. If one's chambered, you end up with a full power shot going who knows where.

[brentfoto]

sm--

Kindly vote your selection. From your post, I could not determine it because there was no comment on whether safety was ON or OFF.

[brentfoto]

RyanM-

But I thought cruiser-ready required safety ON, not OFF, with trigger tripped and no round in chamber; e.g., the 5th selection in the poll.

Perhaps it varies between agencies.

[brentfoto]

RyanM The only ones I'd choose are option 3 (cruiser ready) or option 2. But I'd prefer cruiser ready. No round in the chamber means if your house catches on fire and rounds start cooking off, they just blow up in the tube. If one's chambered, you end up with a full power shot going who knows where.


Isn't it required that safety be ON for 'cruiser-ready', or does it vary between agencies, or is it standard to have safety OFF?

[RyanM]

Don't know if it varies from agency to agency, but in common parlance, "cruiser ready" does mean the safety is off.

[The Deer Hunter]

Is having your safety on or off really something to be arguing about? After all, you are the only real safety.

For the most part my safeties are almost always off.

[brentfoto]

I'm not sure I like that 'form' of 'cruiser-ready'.

With that trigger tripped the action is not locked-it starts to slide slightly downward on its own when leaned against my wall. The safety might be a 'back-up' in the event it goes all the way down by itself and what confusion might be encountered when you need to use it. I just don't know.

It might be better to 'lock' that action (cocked hammer), no round in chamber, and have safety OFF. But then one must still remember to press the Action Bar Lock to chamber a round and then one is ready to pull the trigger. Then you must train yourself not to use the Action Bar Lock on subsequent rounds to be chambered.

[JNewell]

I voted #3 (cruiser ready) but in reality as Lee says the magazine has an extended tube and is downloaded one or two rounds so "full" depends on whether you're thinking factory OEM or as modified.

[brentfoto]

Deerhunter-

Having the safety ON or OFF is definitely an issue to be discussed IMHO. One can't ignore 'human factors'. We 'ain't' perfect...

Safeties are placed for a reason. One may be fumbling so much out of nervousness and have to transport the weapon to another positiion in a darkened room, or area, whatever, where one's finger may inadvertently get within the trigger guard...and the pull isn't much compared to most DA revolvers in my experience.

I haven't decided yet how to vote. But leaving the safety on while it's leaning against the wall may be one part of the equation, at least for me. And having a round already chambered does not appeal to me either. That would leave the final two choices-for me. That's where I'm leaning at the moment.

[Dave McCracken]

Like Lee. To reiterate.....

Action's locked closed on an empty chamber, safety's on. Mag's loaded one less than full. On mine, that leaves 5 shells in there. All 00, old Estate or new Federal.

Cogniscienti can make this ready in a second or less, kids and irresponsible, untrained adults cannot make it fire easily.

[brentfoto]

Dave-

On mine, which is the subject of the poll, that leaves me only 3 rounds.

So you don't mind having to do three separate things in order to be ready to fire?

1. press Action Bar Lock
2. cycle forend while pressing in on Action Bar Lock
3. disengage the safety

Oh, yes, and a 'fourth'

4. Place another cartridge in the magazine (should be #1 if I understand you correctly). Or is there ANOTHER reason for mag being one shy? I don't understand for the life of me why mag should be one less than full.

[brentfoto]

At this time, full mag, no round in chamber, safety OFF, trigger tripped, leads by a two-to-one margin over second place.

[The Deer Hunter]

Deerhunter-

Having the safety ON or OFF is definitely an issue to be discussed IMHO. One can't ignore 'human factors'. We 'ain't' perfect...

Safeties are placed for a reason. One may be fumbling so much out of nervousness and have to transport the weapon to another positiion in a darkened room, or area, whatever, where one's finger may inadvertently get within the trigger guard...and the pull isn't much compared to most DA revolvers in my experience.


The only time I have rounds chambered are when I'm ready to fire my weapon. If I'm toting my 870 around the woods as use for bear mace, I will have a full magazine but no rounds present in the chamber. If I ever have it loaded in my closet, or next to my bed, there is no shell in the chamber.

If there is a shell in the chamber, I am either about to say pull, shoot a target or about to shoot a living creature.

If I find that I need to move my 870 (or any gun for that matter) in a way that it could possibly be set off inadvertently I will not leave the chamber full.

I fail to see a reason to have a safety besides protection for the company that made the firearm and for peace of mind. Far to many people think that if the safety is on, you can point it at anything safely. I am even uncomfortable when my buddy muzzle sweeps me with his paintball gun. He usually says "The safety is on" but that doesn't matter.

Yeah, I'm that good. Honestly, I'm not being cocky. I'm 100% confident in my gun handling.

(I don't own any handguns, by the way)

[waterhouse]

With that trigger tripped the action is not locked-it starts to slide slightly downward on its own when leaned against my wall. The safety might be a 'back-up' in the event it goes all the way down by itself and what confusion might be encountered when you need to use it. I just don't know.

Go to a safe place. Make sure your gun is unloaded. Make a visual and physical check of the magazine tube to make sure it is unloaded. Make a visual and physical check as you slowly close the slide, again making sure that no shell is fed into the chamber. When you are convinced that the gun is completely empty, point it in a safe direction and pull the trigger.

Now, take your gun and go sit it in a corner. Report back to this thread the moment the slide action goes all the way down due to the force of gravity, opening the action.

Safeties are placed for a reason. One may be fumbling so much out of nervousness and have to transport the weapon to another positiion in a darkened room, or area, whatever, where one's finger may inadvertently get within the trigger guard...and the pull isn't much compared to most DA revolvers in my experience.

If I have to shoot, I rack the slide and start shooting. If I have to shoot and in the middle of racking the slide I, for some reason, no longer have to shoot, I can put the safety on easily before I go walking around. Also, my finger doesn't ever inadvertently go inside the trigger guard. I know where my trigger finger is at all times.

What I do may not be best for you. If I had learned another way other than cruiser ready, I'd probably do that. If I had kids around, I might spend the time to relearn by making sure I took the safety off. For now, my way works for me.

I have also read G. Bartley's post about the gun within the vehicle. He has way more LE experience than I do, but I do consider cruiser ready safe.

Our gun carriers locked below the forearm, and they were sturdy as hell. For an 870 to "go off" on its own in one of our carriers,
a) the carrier would have to completely fail, releasing the area below the forearm
b) the vehicle would have to hit a bump large enough to force the forearm all the way down, opening the action. On a slicked up 870 I admit this wouldn't take much.
c) the vehicle would then have to hit another bump, AND the 870 would have to be held in such a manner (stuck between the seat?) that the force imparted by the bump only affected the slide action and not the rest of the gun. Keep in mind that the only reason B was allowed to happen was that the carrier is no longer securely holding the gun. This force which was imparted only on the forearm/action bar assembly would have to be great enough to close the action.
d) One more large bump to get the firing pin sliding forward (this is why you don't load an 870 all the way up and then set the butt of the shotgun on the floor of your patrol vehicle.)

[brentfoto]

Deerhunter-

I don't see any logic in not having the magazine in the gun loaded at all times. Suggest that you do that, and have the safety ON. Or do it, and have the safety OFF with action locked or with trigger tripped.

But not having that loaded mag means you have to insert cartridges in the heat of the moment-all of them, or however many you want. It's just not efficient at all from a tactical standpoint, Deerhunter.

[brentfoto]

I see that 'waterhouse' is with the majority in this poll.

I can see the slide going all the way down to force of gravity or in an earthquake, and I live in Southern California. Anyway, I like the majority's opinion, somewhat, because all one has to do is 'rack' and 'rock'.

However, in the stress of the moment, and in the dark, I'm not so sure that a person would have complete control of his trigger finger and would likely have a greater opportunity to have a ND at the worst possible moment.

[waterhouse]

I don't understand for the life of me why mag should be one less than full.

It has already been mentioned, but let's say you keep your chamber empty and your magazine 1 down. If bad stuff starts happening, you grab your gun and start shooting. But let's say that the bad stuff that starts happening needs a slug (hostage situation, whatever). If you have a side saddle loaded with slugs, you can shove the slug into the mag tube, rack the slide, and make the shot. This can be done very quickly.

[brentfoto]

I see that 'waterhouse' is with the majority in this poll.

It seems tempting to be able to just 'rack' and 'roll', but I fear that in the heat of a very stressful situation, in pitch-black dark, there's a good possibility that trigger finger might end up where it shouldn't-and one could have a ND at the worst possible time.

[brentfoto]

One round down in mag. Sorry, it's just too much to do, waterhouse. You have to 'THINK' in order to do as you so persistently advocate. And manual dexterity goes out the window.

You have to DECIDE if slug is necessary, find the darn bag, find the round, insert it into mag, cycle, then shoot. You're already dead meat.

I'm in my house and ain't gonna use no slugs, anyway, even if there should be a hostage situation. I'm not that kind of shooter, nor am I in a mall with such a situation, and I ain't no SWAT sharpshooter.

Before today, I had my shotgun as in the 6th choice in the poll.

Today, I have it as in the 5th choice in the poll (rack it, disengage safety, fire).

Tomorrow... maybe 'rack it and roll' mode...

[RyanM]

Given the lack of gun-handling skills required for there to be a "good" chance of the trigger finger ending up on the trigger when it shouldn't be, if that is the case for you, then there's also a "good" chance that you'll accidentally bump the safety off as well, then accidentally shoot an infant, then, when you go to actually shoot the bad guy, you'll both short-stroke the action and bump the safety back on, making shooting impossible.

Seriously, someone who has spent a few months getting familiar with basic gun safety and handling should not have a "good" chance of accidentally grabbing the trigger.

[The Deer Hunter]

Deerhunter-

I don't see any logic in not having the magazine in the gun loaded at all times. Suggest that you do that, and have the safety ON. Or do it, and have the safety OFF with action locked or with trigger tripped.

But not having that loaded mag means you have to insert cartridges in the heat of the moment-all of them, or however many you want. It's just not efficient at all from a tactical standpoint, Deerhunter.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I prefer things my way. Using my guns are all about how I operate. Just how different people prefer different types of firearms and different options for their particular gun, this is how I prefer to operate. I can load a couple shells pretty fast. I am not worried one bit. If I was worried, If I wasn't confident in how I can load my shotgun, I would have my magazine full.

I find it safer, too. What if I forget I had cartridges in the magazine? What if someone else in the house doesn't know that there are cartridges in the magazine?

[waterhouse]

One round down in mag. Sorry, it's just too much to do, waterhouse. You have to 'THINK' in order to do as you so persistently advocate. And manual dexterity goes out the window.

You have to DECIDE if slug is necessary, find the darn bag, find the round, insert it into mag, cycle, then shoot. You're already dead meat.

I'm in my house and ain't gonna use no slugs, anyway, even if there should be a hostage situation. I'm not that kind of shooter, nor am I in a mall with such a situation, and I ain't no SWAT sharpshooter.

It isn't too much to do if you have time to do it. If I need to shoot right away, I can do that. If I have time to switch to a slug, I can do that as well. You asked why, and I answered. If it doesn't work for you, that is fine. Shotguns are versatile like that :D

By the way, there is no bag to find, and no slug to find. It is attached to the side of the gun: (the gun isn't mine, but shows a sidesaddle)

http://www.borelliconsulting.com/evals/other/images/my870.jpg

With practice, which is the most important thing (whichever method of "ready condition" you choose, you need to practice) you can take a round from the sidesaddle and get it into play very quickly. Also with practice, you can learn to put a slug where you want to at HD distance. I am also not a SWAT sniper. Hitting a 5 inch circle at 15 yards will be easy with enough practice.

[brentfoto]

Your points are well-taken, waterhouse. Thanks for your input.

You too, Deerhunter, but I could not disagree with you more. Thanks for your contribution to the thread!

[41magsnub]

I'd answer but I don't want to get cross examined.

[brentfoto]

Ryan, you need a good dose of 'human factors' reality... :neener:

We ain't shooting at stationary targets at the range no more... :)

[brentfoto]

magsnub-

I'd answer but I don't want to get cross examined.

Sorry if I came across that way. I'm really interested in why you made your selection, and will 'back off' if I came off in the way I make my livelihood. :banghead:

Looking at the poll, however, I do NOT see your vote! ;)

[RyanM]

Ryan, you need a good dose of 'human factors' reality...

If you plan to screw up, you know what will most likely happen?

The "reality" is that planning to fail does not pan out very well, and that proper training and practice should make a safety unnecessary for any defensive application.

I suppose all Glock, M&P, and XD owners also need a dose of reality-according-to-brentfoto.

[brentfoto]

I said 'human factors' reality. Have you ever been in a fight?

[brentfoto]

'Rack and roll' is presently leading over 'chambered round, safety ON', 38% to 22%.

[Marshall]

Anyway, assume the 870 is about 6 foot distance away from reach.

What is the best 'ready' condition to have it in and why?

By best "ready", you must mean ready to shoot. If it's any other way, the question should read the best "safety" condition. Or the best "kind-of ready but safe" condition. Or the best "what I feel comfy with the whole time it sits 6 feet away from me during times I don't have to shoot" condition. Or the best "protect me from myself" condition. Ready is to shoot. If that's what you really mean, then load it up, have it racked and have it ready. Respectfully, if you're concerned about not knowing what to do, or what your booger picker might do by accident, then I suggest you practice until you don't have those concerns. And why you're arguing with people after you ask what they feel best with, I have no idea?

Personally, mines loaded to the hilt and ready to go boom, except with the safety on.

[sm]

Each person must have training, quality practice and communications.

Repetition becomes faith, faith becomes habit.

Departments of all types have protocol for reasons - every one does the same thing- always.

This is how they are trained, continue to train, with not only the actual applications of guns, also communications.

In one's home or business setting, one must have a trained, practiced protocol with everyone and communicate.

Not just shotguns, any firearm in the house/business.

Snick-n-snock is what I and some trusted folks have chosen to do for us, in some settings.
A real tight knit bunch, and we trust each other.

Now...
In some business setting we do as Lee shared with shotguns.
The lever action 30-30s are mag full, and chamber empty too.
All one has to do is lever a round and shoot, easy to keep a lever action topped up.
We do revolvers as handguns, all the same platform, a K frame.


The best way honestly is Lee's way.
Reason being, if everyone did the same thing, and practiced the same thing, then folks would be more proficient in one way.

When folks get to changing methods, guns and all , all the time, especially new folks, it is harder to instill and ingrain something.
When matters get serious, one's motor skills erode, and it is not the time to try to think remember, figure out how to do something.

Learn one thing well, especially a Dept protocol.
Learn one gun platform, and learn it well too...

[caltek1911]

brentfoto

Yes, the safety is on. Forgot to mention that, and that I have a magazine extension, so I don't have it fully loaded.

[brentfoto]

What may be 'safest' may not be 'best'. And vice-versa.

I guess if you wanted a meaning for best I'd say that it might be best for tactical reasons without a serious compromise in safety.

[brentfoto]

Opinions most certainly DIFFER as to what constitutes 'cruiser-ready':

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=194395

Another interesting thread:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77188

[mljdeckard]

brentfoto,

I consider the trigger safety to be superfluous with the chamber empty and the slide locked. If I didn't have small children, I would keep a round chambered, the magazine topped off, with the safety on.

[Striker]

Option 3, "cruiser ready".

[Ceemack]

Empty chamber AND safety on makes no sense to me. With no round in the chamber, the safety is superfluous.

As for leaving the slide unlocked, that also doesn't make any sense to me. I'd want firm control of the weapon when I first grabbed it. Also, the slide release on the 870 is easy to locate and operate in a hurry--it's one of the gun's best features.

Slugs are useful for law enforcement and military applications. For home defense, it's hard to envision a scenario where they'd be needed--or even desirable. Fill you magazine to capacity with low-recoil buckshot loads.

But this discussion kind of points out one of the two reasons why a shotgun really isn't the ideal home-defense weapon--it's hard to hide away and secure. Unlike a shotgun, a handgun is easy to lock up in a nightstand.

[mljdeckard]

A handgun is what you use to fight your way back to the long gun you never should have put down in the first place. Handguns are backup. No handgun has sufficient stopping power.

[ronto]

The noise of racking the slide alerting the BG is not a bad thing...Hopefully, he'll run like hell and I won't have to spend the next 2 or 3 years in Civil Court...Although if he's stupid enough to break into an occupied house in rural Arkansas the sound probably won't scare him anyway...However, for a split second while still standing, the flash-bang certainly will.

[brentfoto]

I can see the advantage to cruiser-ready.

However, I chose full mag, chamber empty, safety OFF, cocked.

I feel uncomfortable with the forend gradually make its way down as I lean it against the wall. Also, it's too easy for a perp to grab my shotgun, rack it, and roll.

By having the hammer cocked, the action is locked - the forend does not slide at all without pressing the Action Bar Lock. That way the firearm is secure, and it's not easy to figure out how to rack the slide.

There's also no chance that I might rack the slide inadvertently and leave the gun chambered with the safety OFF.

It requires a decision and deliberate act to press the Action Bar Lock and simultaneously rack the slide.

[TimboKhan]

I have 5 guns in my house right now that are loaded with one in the chamber, although the revolver next to my bed and the one above the kitchen sink probably don't count for the purposes of this argument. I feel perfectly safe with this configuration because it is just me in my apartment, I recieve very few guests, and I never have kids over. For me, it works just fine. For others, particularly those with kiddies, probably not a very safe arrangement. I should hasten to add that everything but the revolvers are on safe, and two of them (Taurus 92 by my computer and 1911 by my TV chair) are cocked and locked. The last one, my kel-tec, stays loaded 24/7 and really isn't a "house" gun so much as it is the gun I grab to go and do errands and such. As a matter of fact, I didn't even count it, as my AR-15 that is right by my bed is also loaded and on safe. No shotguns, but if I had one, the condition would be the exact same. I probably wouldn't have the revolver and the AR by my bed if I had the shotgun, either.

[dasanii19]

I chose option 4 when I meant to choose 3..... :rolleyes: oops...

[brentfoto]

Sorry, your vote is already counted as the fourth option. You chose the fourth because in your heart you know it's the best! :neener: :D

[Gingerbreadman]

I do things differently...

Empty chamber (more on that later), safety off, loaded magazine. I have three rounds in a four round magazine. That gives me the option of quickly chambering something different than the 00 buck that the gun is currently loaded with. In addition, there is a 5-round elastic shotgun shell holder on the stock with several goodies inside. Going front to back, there is a bottle of OC spray, one slug, one 00 buck, and two #4 buck. Then there is the box of containing the rest of the #4 buck in my nightstand, but I can't imagine a scenario where I am reloading that many times inside my own home.

Then my own little trademark: I took a used 12 guage hull and made two cuts in one side and peeled the strip back. The "demilled" hull is placed in the breech with the extractor engaged. This prevents the breech from closing and locking with the chamber empty. The bright red strip hanging out the side serves as an indicator that the gun is loaded (I wrote "loaded" on the strip). My modified shell extracts and ejects like any other shell.
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/5500/p3070015io8.jpg

[brentfoto]

At this time, 'cruiser-ready' still leads. But nearly tied for second place are round in chamber, safety ON, and no round in chamber, safety OFF, cocked.

[rcmodel]

Full magazine with one in chamber, safety OFF.
:what:

If you voted for this, you need to up your Health, Life & Liability insurance coverage, and move to a better neighborhood!

rcmodel

[Fred Fuller]

brentfoto,

You asked: In a home defense situation, why would anyone, especially at nighttime, load mag one round down?

That limits you to 3 out of 5 possible shots, unless you have the presence of mind (and can stop "shaking" enough) to load a slug in the magazine just as you're picking up the weapon. This coupled with all the things one must do otherwise, would be a bit much, don't you think?

That's a fair and legitimate question. My only answer is the same one I stated in my first post on your thread- "TRAINING and PRACTICE make what might seem complicated simple, and speed up the process as well. "Load one shoot one" drills are especially effective in this regard. No matter what the condition of the gun, the condition (skillset) of the operator is vastly more important."

What training, you ask?

A lifetime's worth, basically. There's a hokey old song by Hank Junior with a line that goes like this:
"Because you can't stomp us out and you can't make us run,
cause we're them ole boys raised on shotguns."

Well, that's me. I grew up in deepest hickest Alabama in a county (Perry) where the rural population density right now is still only about seven people per square mile. We didn't shoot clay birds, we hunted the real thing- doves and quail. Shotguns were also responsible for small game for the pot, big game (whitetail deer) as well as keeping feral dogs and feral people at bay. We got taught early and often how to handle a shotgun.

I don't know of anything better than buck fever to help get you over the shakes and into hitting what you're shooting at, next to getting into a firefight for real. And working your way up behind a good bird dog that's locked down on a covey of quail can produce just as big a case of buck fever as the most monstrous whitetail Alabama ever grew. I've seen it happen often enough.

If quail hunting won't teach you safety, muzzle awareness, keeping your feet in the right position always, keeping aware of where everyone else in your party is around you, where the dogs are, picking out ONE target from the grenade burst that just went off at your feet and getting on it, and hitting it before you try for another target, then nothing will. And I can assure you those lessons carry over to defensive shooting perfectly well. Anyone who has learned to conduct himself properly on a covey rise is pretty well equipped to handle a gunfight with a shotgun.

And if rural pursuits of brown bombshells isn't enough, there's more. I spent several years as a volunteer riding reserve with the small town police department where I lived for a while early in my working career (I was a volunteer fireman also, as well as an EMT volunteering with the county rescue squad). I've been on the street when things were not looking too good for the home team, and I pretty much always carried one of the department's two Model 12 riot guns when i rode along. The cars didn't have shotgun racks, and I wouldn't put the long gun in the trunk, so that meant I had to drag it around with me every time I left the car, or else literally stand over it behind the passenger side open door.

That meant my partner was always bugging me about why I brought the Model 12 along- except for those times when he wanted to take it away from me of course. But since I brought it, I kept it. You have to understand, this was the same partner who left the keys in the car one night when he parked at a local convenience store and came back to find the keys missing. Not the car, thank goodness- just the keys. But it was still a long several blocks walk for him back to the stationhouse for the spare keys, and telling the chief what had happened (and paying for the lock change on the car out of pocket) was no fun for him either.

I had several years to get to know Dave McC over at GunSpot's shotgun forum, which was then moderated by world-class instructor Randy Cain. I followed Dave over here to THR, where I have been a pestilential gadfly ever since. It's likely no lie that Dave has spilled more shot than I have ever fired, and he and Randy have been good influences on a lot of shotgunners over the years- me included. For years before that I read hundreds of pages on the fighting shotgun, and watched every video I could lay hands on. I experimented with the things I heard, read and saw.

And finally things worked out so I too could go to class. Take a look at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=202292 if you haven't seen it yet.

So here's this all-the-way-around-the-barn answer to what is essentially a pretty simple question.

No, I don't think it's a bit much to start out with just three rounds of buckshot in the magazine of a pumpgun that will hold four plus one in the chamber were it fully loaded. I know how to load the gun, and I don't believe I'm going to get "the shakes" to the point that I can't manage to get it done. I have confidence that I won't, if that confidence ever turns out to be misplaced then yes, I might well be screwed. But if I ever get rattled that bad, having four or even five rounds in the gun is not going to be any real help that I can see. I'll just be a dead dude with a fully loaded gun, rather than a dead dude with three rounds in the magazine and four in the Sidesaddle.

You see, I have TRAINED AND PRACTICED at picking up the shotgun and loading a slug into the magazine and from thence into the chamber. I have done it all on my own, and I have done it with Louis Awerbuck dragging me back and forth and up and down in front of a bank of steel swingers yelling "SHOOT! SHOOT! SHOOT!" in my ear in front of my whole shotgun class.

I think I can do it in the peace and quiet (hey, everything's relative) of my own home if I have to.

Why would I load the magazine one round down? So there's room for a slug if I need one first up. I don't know what situation I might have to deal with when I roll out with the shotgun, and i want to be able to load it to suit whatever I have to face. I have learned that no shotgun magazine is ever big enough, and I have learned to feed the puppy so as to keep it barking. I am comfortable doing 'load one, shoot one' as necessary. If we are ever beset by the Fourth Mongolian Horde's Home Invasion Brigade, then I might be in trouble. But the odds of that are not too good. And we have dogs that spend the night inside, who would happily complicate things for anyone who forced entry. And I don't mean by licking them into submission either.

After years of messing about with different configurations of shotguns, I have come to LIKE a plain simple bare bones 870- 18" barrel, no magazine extension, short stock, white light, Sidesaddle. It just handles better and is more manageable as far as I'm concerned. Yes, I could add more ammo capacity- at the cost of a slightly more sluggish gun. I'll risk the tradeoff.

Why would I keep the chamber empty and give away another round in the gun? Because I think it's safer. The handguns we both (my wife and I) carry are fully loaded and ready to fire. Key word is CARRY. We don't normally carry long guns, which means they stay tucked away in one or another hidey hole. It isn't likely any one of our few and far between visitors would ever stumble across one of the 870s, but we prefer to keep chambers empty just in case. Note- I'm not telling you that YOU have to do any of this the way I do it, by the way. I'm explaining what I do and why i do it. What you do is up to you.

And understand- I definitely don't consider myself God's gift to shotgunning. Several people here like Dave or Steve are a LOT better at all this than I am or in fact am ever likely to be. But the nice thing about that is that while any of them might beat me handily at claybird games, or the fewest shells per limit of doves, NONE of them is ever likely to kick in the door of my house in the middle of the night. Nor am I some sort of paragon of the manly virtues, bravery, courage and all that. I'm just a crotchety old redneck with confidence in his ability with an 870.

Oh, and my wife? There's an identically set up shotgun on her side of the bed too. And she took Louis' carbine class last summer, and took notes through my shotgun class year before last. The carbine class was her birthday present last year, this year she got her own private berm built in the pasture beside the house.

Let me leave you with what I consider the most important words of this entire answer/essay/diatribe:

No matter what the condition of the gun, the condition (skillset) of the operator is vastly more important.

See to the first things first, all else will follow...

Stay safe,

lpl/nc

[leadcounsel]

Just curious, what are the circumstances you would choose a slug instead of buckshot?

[Fred Fuller]

leadcounsel,

I'm being hardheaded sticking with buckshot in the magazine. Louis says he isn't smart enough to keep up with more than one kind of ammo, so he just uses slugs. I'm not smarter than Louis is- just stubborn.

Any situation requiring either more range than buckshot can deliver, or more penetration than buckshot can manage, calls for slugs. We live in the country and it's possible a fight may go outside. It's 51 yards from our front door to our front gate, for example. And if a BG inside the house were hiding behind the refrigerator? It's Brenneke time.

hth,

lpl/nc

[Gingerbreadman]

Just curious, what are the circumstances you would choose a slug instead of buckshot?

I have slugs at the ready more for wild animals than home invaders. There isn't anything in my house that that amounts to anything more than concealment.

[brentfoto]

Lee Lapin brentfoto,

You asked: In a home defense situation, why would anyone, especially at nighttime, load mag one round down?

That limits you to 3 out of 5 possible shots, unless you have the presence of mind (and can stop "shaking" enough) to load a slug in the magazine just as you're picking up the weapon. This coupled with all the things one must do otherwise, would be a bit much, don't you think?

That's a fair and legitimate question. My only answer is the same one I stated in my first post on your thread- "TRAINING and PRACTICE make what might seem complicated simple, and speed up the process as well. "Load one shoot one" drills are especially effective in this regard. No matter what the condition of the gun, the condition (skillset) of the operator is vastly more important."

So here's this all-the-way-around-the-barn answer to what is essentially a pretty simple question.

No, I don't think it's a bit much to start out with just three rounds of buckshot in the magazine of a pumpgun that will hold four plus one in the chamber were it fully loaded. I know how to load the gun, and I don't believe I'm going to get "the shakes" to the point that I can't manage to get it done. I have confidence that I won't, if that confidence ever turns out to be misplaced then yes, I might well be screwed. But if I ever get rattled that bad, having four or even five rounds in the gun is not going to be any real help that I can see. I'll just be a dead dude with a fully loaded gun, rather than a dead dude with three rounds in the magazine and four in the Sidesaddle.

You see, I have TRAINED AND PRACTICED at picking up the shotgun and loading a slug into the magazine and from thence into the chamber. I have done it all on my own, and I have done it with Louis Awerbuck dragging me back and forth and up and down in front of a bank of steel swingers yelling "SHOOT! SHOOT! SHOOT!" in my ear in front of my whole shotgun class.

I think I can do it in the peace and quiet (hey, everything's relative) of my own home if I have to.

Why would I load the magazine one round down? So there's room for a slug if I need one first up. I don't know what situation I might have to deal with when I roll out with the shotgun, and i want to be able to load it to suit whatever I have to face.

After years of messing about with different configurations of shotguns, I have come to LIKE a plain simple bare bones 870- 18" barrel, no magazine extension, short stock, white light, Sidesaddle. It just handles better and is more manageable as far as I'm concerned. Yes, I could add more ammo capacity- at the cost of a slightly more sluggish gun. I'll risk the tradeoff.

Why would I keep the chamber empty and give away another round in the gun? Because I think it's safer.
...Note- I'm not telling you that YOU have to do any of this the way I do it, by the way. I'm explaining what I do and why i do it. What you do is up to you.

Let me leave you with what I consider the most important words of this entire answer/essay/diatribe:

No matter what the condition of the gun, the condition (skillset) of the operator is vastly more important.

See to the first things first, all else will follow...

Stay safe,

lpl/nc

Lee Lapin-

Thank you for taking the time for writing such a detailed post, which I have edited somewhat.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this tactic-it's at least three extra steps, and they tax the skillset of the operator:

1. You must THINK and try to remember to chamber another round;
2. You must choose ; and
3. You must actually chamber a slug.

I think slugs are ill-advised unless you are SWAT in the mall, have a hostage situation, and you are a super-sniper type with a shotgun.

I subscribe to KISS, and I believe that 1.5 second 21 foot for perp to get at you.

Cruiser ready or cruiser-ready (cocked).
Chamber empty. Be ready to rock n roll without further delay.

Thanks for your comments and for taking the time to make them. And I apologize for not responding sooner!

[Fred Fuller]

Thank you for taking the time for writing such a detailed post, which I have edited somewhat.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this tactic-it's at least three extra steps, and they tax the skillset of the operator:

1. You must THINK and try to remember to chamber another round;
2. You must choose ; and
3. You must actually chamber a slug.

I think slugs are ill-advised unless you are SWAT in the mall, have a hostage situation, and you are a super-sniper type with a shotgun.

I subscribe to KISS, and I believe that 1.5 second 21 foot for perp to get at you.

Cruiser ready or cruiser-ready (cocked).
Chamber empty. Be ready to rock n roll without further delay.

Thanks for your comments and for taking the time to make them. And I apologize for not responding sooner!
==========================

Not a problem with the elapsed time- tempus fugit and all that.

And I have no problem at all with you disagreeing with me. It's still partly a free country after all. And it's differences of opinion that make horse races- and internet forums 8^).

Extra steps? I happen to think an extra step or two between getting suddenly hauled up out of a sound sleep and commencing a firefight is a GREAT idea. When I was much younger I used to fight fires, run ambulances, ride reserve with the local cops as a volunteer AND work full time for a living too. I well remember one morning waking up behind the wheel of my car, red lights and siren going, heading down the road answer a medic call. Of course, that was after two major fires and the resultant cleanup (rolling and washing hose, racking it to dry, reloading the hose beds on the trucks with clean dry hose off the racks) and two full day's work (and not much sleep) in the previous 36 hours. I was just a little punchy you might say.

So for me, having to reach over, retrieve a shotgun, search around and around and around to find the magazine release (OK, that's a joke), pump a round of 00 into the chamber (or figure out if I need a slug first), and prepare to engage are not really that big a deal. In fact I think of them as an additional safety feature.

Look- I am sleeping in my own house in my own bed, with my DW beside me (who also has a shotgun on her side of the bed). There's an electric fence with a padlocked gate between me and the outside world. There's 90-odd pounds of Fila Brasileira (look up the breed on the net) sleeping in the house somewhere or other- she moves around in the night like any good watchdog. There's an exciteable Brittany spaniel in the house, to wake up the Fila (and everyone else) in case a mouse- or anything bigger- shows up. The doors are all locked (my wife used to be a professional turnkey and still has a thing about locked doors). There's an alarm system inside and a perimeter alarm system outside.

I think I can afford to sleep in Condition White, and not have to be prepared to react like I was in a front-line foxhole on the first night after the invasion of Iwo Jima, if you get my drift here. I don't think keeping the house guns with actions locked, safeties engaged and empty chambers is going to be a really big disadvantage to us. Of course I could be wrong- but I kinda doubt it.

I have to THINK, you say. Well, all I can answer to that is, a shotgun IS a thinking person's weapon by definition. Not just my definition, Louis Awerbuck's among others ("The shotgun’s flexibility demands a special set of manipulation skills, making it a “thinking person’s” weapons system."- http://www.gunsite.com/courses/shotgun.html ) I've been thinking most all my life, sometimes not very clearly of course, but I've managed to get along OK so far.

I sincerely hope you will not take this the wrong way, but if doing the things I have outlined here "taxes the skillset of the operator," then all I can say is, that operator's skillset NEEDS SOME WORK.

I do not say that lightly. I am not saying that I'm ready to hop over 'behind the fence' and start runnin' with the boyz at Range 19. That ain't me. I'm no gen-u-wine 'kicker and shooter'- I never wanted to be. I know some of those folks, I have known them since they were working out of the old stockade at Fort Bragg- heck, I still know a bunch of the folks from the Blue Light days, while 5th Group was holding down the fort during the two years it took for Beckwith's bunch to get stood up. Those folks were mostly old SOG guys from the Vietnam era. Believe me, I know operators, and I ain't no operator.

But I CAN run a shotgun, at least as long as I don't have to run very far with it 8^). Being an oldphart has its drawbacks after all. But I still have the tee shirt that says "Age and treachery will defeat youth and enthusiasm."

Slugs are ill advised? I live out in the country, and if I have to take a shotgun outside I can easily face a shot of over 100 yards. I once worked on it for a while, but I never could get buckshot to be effective at a measured 100 yards. With slugs, it's not a problem- not a problem getting out there, and not a problem hitting with them either. And if I need penetration, I know I can count on Brennekes to give it to me. They turn a car body from cover to concealment, and lots of other things too- I know that for a fact, because I've shot stuff with slugs. My slugs are intended to be a problem for anyone so ill advised as to make me launch some in their direction. And the last word in that discussion IMO comes from Louis Awerbuck, who professes not to be smart enough to keep up with more than one kind of shotgun ammo and therefore only uses slugs in his defensive shotguns.

Once again, I am not trying to say I am God's gift to defensive shotgunning. Your moderator Dave has spent a career teaching shotgunning to folks who carried them for a living. Friend sm can shoot better in his sleep than I can wide awake. Lots of folks here are better with a shotgun than I am or am ever likely to be. Because I think something is better done a certain way is no reason to assume I am telling you or anyone else you must do it that way too. I am not going to be at your gunfight- you have to do it all on your own, with your own hardware and software.

If I work things right I will not have to be at my next gunfight either 8^). That's the ideal after all... "the school of the sword of no sword."

Stay safe,

lpl/nc

[brentfoto]

Remember, you are in a deep sleep when all of this happens. And at your most vulnerable. Cruiser-ready (cocked) is the ONLY WAY TO GO! ;)

On another matter, why even practice out to 100 yards unless you're into deer?

They'll lock you up and throw away the key if you ever waste somebody at that distance.

[Titan6]

By "waste" I guess you mean shoot someone? It would certainly be unusual but not out of the question if you live in the country.

[sm]

Just curious, what are the circumstances you would choose a slug instead of buckshot?

My personal needs and tasks.

For me and the settings I have a lot of years in a slug is the preferred loading.
There are exceptions, rare, still exceptions do exist and again, choose what I choose for me, my skill sets, and needs.

I grew up with hi-risk needs that shaped my skill sets, and how to deal with problems. Not only in the home, also away from home, and in business settings.

I have not attended a known gun school of any kind, there was none coming up.
My lessons were private lessons, and the ladies and gents that mentored me, had "experience".

Those I worked with, and associated with, were of the same mindset as they too shared the same needs for tasks as I.

Being mobile, flexible, and adaptive is a huge consideration.
Stressed was not being a target, Prevention of trouble, Not going to where trouble is, Evading if trouble showed up, and Dealing with trouble if one could not.

Firearms were just one tool, not the tool.

In some of the "lessons" I have done, like in a shoot house, I have taken a chair, busted out a window and hauled butt out a window.
Everyone else went to guns, and clearing the house.

The instructions were "there is a threat, survive the threat".
I survived the threat by evading when trouble showed up.
This sounds really odd to some, and it really baffled some when a timer was used and I had the best time and "score".

Understand most of my lessons and mentoring did not involve buzzers and timers.
In the real world, there are no times or scores...not in the context of games.
The "start" might be the front door being brick batted in, or a gun shot fired in a business.
One hopes to "score" by surviving.

Why a slug for me?
Risk for kidnapping is one.

My concern has always been entering, exiting and answering the door of a structure.

I cannot go around with a long gun of any type slung.
Nor could those I worked with, or family.

Lessons were along these lines:
My work associate is overwhelmed and is at gun point being forced to leave against their will.
The criminal has a gun or knife, and perhaps their head is behind a cabinet, or something.
Take the shot to end the felony and shoot that slug through the cabinet.

In a business setting, one way mirrors, armed robbery, shots fired and shoot that slug through that mirror, or mesh screen.
I am responsible for all projectiles and one slug is less likely to deflect, and more likely to hit what needs pointing at.

One movie we use[d] to assist in lessons is the opening scene of Beverly Hills Cop.

That movie came out with that scene and it ran chills through many folks.
Body guards, cops, wholesale, retail and warehouse employees.
It did me.

I was visiting a friend in his retail store when two gentleman , dressed as ladies came in, one at a time.
The first lady, entered and went more near the back of the business, and had control of the employees that did book keeping.

I was in the area behind this, employees only , with break room, storage, restrooms and the like with one of the ladies expecting her first child.

Second "lady" came in and there is nothing like the sound of a tire tool smashing glass and getting folks un nerved!
The back of business was under control by the first "lady" that entered. the front of the store was under control by the second.

Exploding quail flush...yeah, I have experienced that.

I gotta gal pregnant with first child and the BGs do not know we are back there.
Damn straight I evaded with that gal.

The front of business is under control, employees have hit the deck...
I have this young lady with child...
Criminals are taking what they want with guns out ...

My call, and my call was to not play cowboy and go out with guns blazing.
I was carrying a sidearm, there was long guns in the back, a mirror I could shoot through...

Get the gal out to safety, was my choice. I got us out back door and into another business.
Practiced plans, and called police direct.

What ifs...
No pregnant lady, me in the back with various shooting lanes, folks being shot up front?
Hell if I know. I could type what my thoughts are, what my lessons were about, it did not happen and projecting is never healthy.

--
My lessons...
I had a lady that I worked with, we were out and about doing the work we did.
This set up, was she was home and I come home, I have keys to her place since we work together.
I unlock the door and there are screams, she is being being raped, beaten and and this is something I hope nobody ever hears in the real world.

Youth single shot 20 ga was kept in the house , with slugs.
My first shot was a head shot to the one BG waiting his turn, . break gun, eject, load from weak hand slug number two and shoot the rapist as he rose up in surprise.

I had no idea what I was walking into, they had audio and dummies set up.

Now that youth single shot 20 ga is only 36" long, it has a 22" fixed modified barrel.
I am 6' and I can stand and have that shotgun in hand and it not touch the floor.
Either hand, and one cannot see I have that shotgun in hand.

This goes way way back to when I was a kid. As adults often stood just off to the side, with one in hand when there was knock at the door and we were not expecting company, either at home, or in a business setting.

My lesson, if I opened that door , was to do as practiced, if that was trouble.
Because a slug was coming, and one projectile is easier place shot, than multiple pellets , even at close range.

My lessons were for me, and mine, for our settings and risks.
Beverly Hills Cop "set up" we used for lessons.

I had a buddy of mine get nabbed. He resisted until told his wife and kid were nabbed at home.
Phone call made and sure enough his wife and small child was hostage at home. Thankfully the kid was a little sick and medicine made sleepy...

He was put into the trunk of his car and driven around for hours, until the wee hours, then forced at gun point to open his business and give the criminals what they wanted.
His wife was repeatedly raped, as the ones watching her, were not as professional as the ones dealing with husband during all this time.

The kid being sick and sleepy , slept through all this, thank goodness.

There is a real world out there, it is not one where one can re-wind, have "do-overs", push a button and get more guns and ammunition.

It is a cold, hard, evil world. One has to investigate, verify, practice what their world is about and do for them what hopefully will allow them to survive.

There are some correct basic fundamentals...
In the same token, there is no one right way to do something.

Improvise, Adapt, Overcome.

[Mr. Designer]

I suppose if you define 'ready' condition as the fastest possible condition to make a shot then the answer would be Full magazine with one in chamber, safety OFF. It's not the safest but the fastest to a shot.

[brentfoto]

Mr. Designer-

Thank you for your post. But that is not what I asked in my posts or in the poll.

The issue was the meaning of 'best' ready condition, and I defined it for purposes of the poll in first post:

" 'Best' is defined to mean the very best condition for tactical combat without a serious compromise in safety. Take it from there. "

Some may believe that your answer, above, would seriously compromise safety in light of the definition in a HD context. Others may differ in their opinion-that's the purpose of the poll and these posts.

The definition may or may not change your view.

I hope this clarifies things a bit for all those concerned.

[Mr. Designer]

brentfoto,
In about a month I'll be living alone, off campus, while attending graduate school. During this time I'll have my shotgun in the "Full magazine, no round in chamber, safety OFF, trigger tripped" ready condition. I wont have to worry about others handling the gun and all I'll have to do is pump and shoot if needed. I would consider the "Full magazine with one in chamber, safety OFF" but I think the risk of an accidental discharge would be too likely, especially in a small apartment.

[brentfoto]

So, I don't understand why you voted for the latter?

[Mr. Designer]

So, I don't understand why you voted for the latter?
I voted with the reasoning of my previous explanation of 'ready' condition.
I suppose if you define 'ready' condition as the fastest possible condition to make a shot then the answer would be Full magazine with one in chamber, safety OFF. It's not the safest but the fastest to a shot.

[waterhouse]

On another matter, why even practice out to 100 yards unless you're into deer?

They'll lock you up and throw away the key if you ever waste somebody at that distance.

While certainly rare, if someone were to shoot at you from 100 yards, your life would be in danger, and it would be appropriate to respond using deadly force. I would prefer a rifle in such a situation, but it's nice to know I can put an ounce of lead on target at that range if an 870 is what I have at the time. [Edit: when I say "nice to know I can" I mean that I have practiced it from field positions at the range . . . I am not saying that I am sure I could hit the shot if someone were shooting back at me, and I hope to never know the answer to that.]

1. You must THINK and try to remember to chamber another round;
2. You must choose ; and
3. You must actually chamber a slug.

You "must" not do any of these things. The gun is already set up as cruiser ready, just downloaded one round. If you need to fight right away, you can get into the fight just as quickly. You are exchanging a round in the magazine for the quick ability to shoot a slug first. That is all.

[brentfoto]

Good luck with the 100 yard scenario.

If it's nighttime and you suspect someone 100 yards away is going to be a problem, call 911 and prepare for an encounter- inside your home. And don't leave it.

Practicing at 100 yards for a SD or HD scenario is hardly worth it. JMO but you'll have a hard time justifying your position in the civil as well as criminal courts. If you hunt a lot, that is a different story.

As to one less in magazine, some would rather take their chances and since the poll assumes 4 + 1 as maximum, I would not download to 3 in mag and empty chamber. Just a personal choice, and, given the adrenaline rush at the time, I think it better not to have to say to myself-'Does this merit a slug', or not? If not, should I try to find another 00 buckshot round, and put it in magazine? Should I rack slide first? What am I doing? Ggeeesssshhhh...decisions, decisions... :cuss::banghead:

[Fred Fuller]

brentfoto,

I suggest you try taking a multi-day shotgun class from any one of the several prominent instructors who are teaching all over the country these days. You might be surprised at your own latent abilities, if you were willing to explore them rather than simply pronouncing impossibilities in such doctrinaire fashion.

And as to that 100 yard thing- in rural areas 100 yards isn't really very far. Here it's 51 yards of front lawn from our front door to the gate across our driveway, and the driveway itself is over 100 yards long.

lpl/nc

[waterhouse]

Practicing at 100 yards for a SD or HD scenario is hardly worth it. JMO but you'll have a hard time justifying your position in the civil as well as criminal courts.

First, you don't have to think of it as practicing for HD or SD or deer hunting. You can go to the range to have a good time. Hitting a melon at 100 yards with a slug is a good time, if you are into that sort of thing.

If they are shooting at you, and you did nothing to provoke the incident, you will have no problem justifying yourself to the courts.

Again, I don't think it is likely that you will have to defend yourself from a 100 yard attack. I don't think people breaking into my house is likely either, but it doesn't hurt to practice or think about these things. I spend most of my shooting time just having fun (as opposed to serious training), and part of that fun happens to involve shooting slugs at 100 yards.

As a slight aside, you seem very concerned about that extra round, and lowering your capacity to 3 rounds. It is worth thinking about. Is an extended mag tube out of the question for you?

[Lightsped]

My 870 only holds 2+1, but I keep it loaded, with one in the chamber with safety on.

[brentfoto]

Yeah, with each yard farther away, Lee, you are that much closer to the electric chair. :uhoh: The further you go out, the closer you get. :)

[okiewita40]

I went with empty chamber, full mag, safety on and trigger tripped. This is what is known in my dept. as crusier safe. It is how my home shotgun is also. I can rack the slide hard so someone can hear it or quietly.

[brentfoto]

Yes, there appear to be some variations in cruiser-safe. Some have safety ON, others OFF.

What works for me is a compromise. I have the safety OFF, action cocked, full mag, no round in chamber. I don't trip the trigger-bad form. :eek:

One risks the likelihood of a ND with trigger tripped. I don't have to trip the trigger at all, and avoid that possibility. I ain't in LE, but I've heard they have certain designated areas at the stations to set up the weapons and trip the trigger where a ND would not have harmful consequences.

What is that telling you?

I merely have to cycle the slide using the Action Bar Lock-and shoot. That slide is not going anywhere unless a person who knows how to activate the lock depresses it.

I like this better also as I lean gun against wall and noticed the slide would go down somewhat on its own with the more popular cruiser-safe condition of trigger tripped.

This method of 'ready' has been instituted by me as a result of this poll. Before, I used to do the same thing as I do now but I would have the safety ON. I believe that that type of redundancy is no longer necessary.

[brentfoto]

Over 200 votes in the poll thus far, with many differing points of view.

Keep the votes coming!