[Island Beretta]

Guys,

I have had it!! :cuss: It appears of late that every subcompact is more accurate and shootable than its bigger brothers. The final straw was hearing that the XD subcompact ran rings around the service size XD. Previously I have heard that the Sig P239 was more accurate than the 228/229; the G26 outshoots the G19, some even say the G17; the 9000s is a crack shot compared to the 92 compact; the CS9 left the bigger S&Ws trailing in its wake; the PT111 was better than the PT915/910 blah, blah. I have fired most of these guns and for Pete's sake most of the time you can't even get a grip on the gun :fire:

I mean up to 7 yds. they MAYBE able to hang around a bit if you manage to draw it from concealment and get a good grip, but after that its downhill..literally

Doesn't sight radius, barrel length, grip size etc. affect performance anymore, in others words, apart from exceptions, BIGGER IS NO LONGER BETTER? :scrutiny: yeah right...

[happyguy]

I shoot full size service weapons better than I do the compacts also. This is especially true when shooting rapidly with .45+P loads. My prefered carry is an H&K USP .45f or Colt 1911.

I do own a Kahr P9 which I carry on special occasions, but if I ever need a gun, I hope I'm packing a big one.

Regards,
Happyguy

[BigG]

I am thinking there is a lot of hype out there. Use what works best for you.

[Tamara]

Getting better groups from a Ransom Rest doesn't necessarily equate to better accuracy in your hand. The Ransom Rest completely removes all the advantages a service-size gun would have over a smaller one.


Besides, since I carry 1911's, I don't worry about that; there's one gun where the little ones will never beat the big ones. ;)

[Double Naught Spy]

IB, I think you are confusing or mixing issues. The accuracy of a given gun is NOT determined by factors such as radius and grip size and in some guns, barrel length may not be a determining factor either. Only this last point is relevant to actual gun accuracy and performance, but not the preceding two. You have confused the differences in gun performance and shooter performance. There are plenty of accurate guns of all sizes that some shooters can't shoot worth crap.

[Tamara]

Unfortunately, the gun is not going to do my shooting for me, therefore I want to factor in a few things that maximize that "shooter perfomance" thing. Like a good trigger and an adequate sight radius.

Hey, a barrel fixture shoots better groups than subcompacts, but I can't shoot one of those worth a dang off-hand. ;)

[10-Ring]

Personally, I find the fullsize guns not only more accurate, but also easier to shoot accurately.

[walking arsenal]

just my two cents worth. i own a taurus .38 snubby, beretta 21a and a glock 33. all mini guns. i shoot better with those than i do my full size pistols I.E. S&W 32-1 9mm, S&W lady smith .357, and my pals glock .40. it alls boils down to what fits you and your talent.

[Island Beretta]

Double Naught Spy,

You are correct but only if you can equate your grip to that of a ransom rest!! Longer sight radius allows for a greater margin of error because a slight wobble will not affect your POI as much as the same wobble in a gun with a shorter sight radius.

As for grip, I spoke of accuracy and shootability. Definitely a longer grip will allow a better grip and aid more in shootability.. I shot a G26 in an IDPA match a few years back, shot well but I had to work alot harder than if I had used my G19; after that my hands hurt for days, it was not fun!! Only recently I borrowed a G26 to shoot because after hearing all the rave reviews I wondered if the gun had been redesigned or something. I had the same experience. My G19 is a lot more comfortable to shoot and once we moved to steel targets at 15 yds and up, the pings! became more consistent under rapid-fire! My friend who owns the G26 even acknowledges this but concealability is his main concern because he is a doctor so he will keep the G26. As for me, at 6'0 and 275 lbs. my Beretta is usually lost on me, though the hammer spur and grip tang aren't at peace with my love-handles.:D

[longeyes]

The subs are great for concealability, but I have more than one
short-barreled Glock and I am consistently more accurate with my 5"
Kimber or Sistema than with the Glocks. Of course, weight and trigger
are also factors along with sight radius.

[jercamp45]

It is not the gun, but the idiot behind it!
Now the 'idiot' may be more confortable with a certain grip over another and shoot it better.
If you are shooting bulleyes at 50 yards, the longer barrel sight radius may matter more.....but at normal realistic/practical ranges of 15 yards(or less!), I do not see that much difference(I have Governments and Officer's).
Looking at my 'Qual Cards' for Security work in Vegas, I have a card for a Government, an Officer's and a ParaLDA Companion. There is 360 Possible: I shot 350 with both the Government and Officer's, and 344 with the Para(one mag was all Nines to the left at 15, I must have had my grip slightly off, hey...stuff happens!). The course: 6 rounds right hand only, 6 rounds left hand only, in 30 seconds at 3 yards. 12 rounds two handed at 7 yards in 30 seconds. 12 rounds two handed at 15 yards in 30 seconds. The instructor said I was shooting my strings of 12 in 20 seconds , so I was firing alittle too fast.
I am not saying this to toot any horns. I have seen dudes with customized 1911's with incredible accuracy not be about to keep a one foot group at 7 yards! And I have seen a guy with a beat up, rattlely 1911A1, crappy sights and trigger, put seven rounds in a single 2 inch hole at 15 yards.
There was a female security officer at the range practising on my last trip
She rented the large SA HD and was not very good. She shot my partners Glock 22 and was not very good. She tried the Beretta 92 of another guy and was not very good. But with her Sig 228...she rocked! It 'fit' her!!
(no she would not try my .45's, she heard they kicked too much! I could not convince her otherwise!)
Accuracy is far more than a gun size and a barrel length......
Jercamp45

[Skunkabilly]

Ransom rest? :confused:

Is that a handgun benchrest? :confused:

[Dr.Rob]

Not only is it a handgun rest, it's an automated one.

It's good for getting rid of variables between shooters and comparing this pistol to that one from an even baseline.

Ie: We put a Ruger p-97 up against a Gold Cup in a ransom rest at 25 yards and shot "x" inch groupsfrom each pistol using "brand A" ammo.

As opposed to:

We gave Rob Latham a beat up SW model 10 and yours truly a Gold cup, and gosh darn of the model 10 didn't out shoot everything else.

I have yet to see a "compact" with features for accuracy that make up for:

1. a shortened sight radius
2. a shorter grip
3. lighter weight etc.
(though the officer model Colt's cone-barrel link-up seems to help)

Marketing guys are the ones selling the smaller is better models, esp now with a hi-cap ban and more ccw permits. If the mag ban ever goes away you'll see full size high cap guns touted as "the best" again.

[Oracle]

Eh, I have both. I carry a Glock 17 when I can conceal it, and a Glock 26 when I can't. Sometimes I carry both. I shoot better with my Glock 17 because of the longer sight radius, though.

[New_comer]

apart from exceptions...

What do you mean? Aren't you contradicting your initial premise by inserting a "margin of error" clause?

But, OTOH, I do remember that guy shown in Ripley's who can hammer nails from 50 yds out, pop balloons from 100 yds, IIRC...with a snub-nosed wheelgun! :eek:


Which reminds me of a conversation I had with a policeman, who claims that his double tap groupings, when blowing away BG's, were always less than 1/2 an inch apart, whatever type of gun he uses.


Go figure. :scrutiny: :D

[OneShot]

Hmmmm, I guess I have LEARNED to be very accurate with my subcompact XD.9. I would say that I am the most accurate with this little sub, even when compared to my larger Smiths and such.

Could it be that I love to shoot the XD? Could it be that the trigger has become super smooth after putting in excess of 5000 rounds through it? (without any maintenance other then cleaning it)

As has been previously mentioned, I think its all about how much you shoot a particular gun and how well you "learn" how to shoot it well. I put about 200 rounds a week through this gun by the way, I love the cheap Wal Mart ammo because its so darn cheap in 9mm. I have only had 2 ftf's in all of the rounds that I've shot.--Oneshot

[George Hill]

You can be very accurate with a small gun. I proved that at my police academy with a snub .38 in the face of SIGs and Glocks.

Barrel length has no effect on accuracy as long as there is enough barrel to put a torque on the slug. Sure, it effects other things... but not accuracy.

Now, when a small gun outshoots the same gun in a bigger size, there are probably reasons for that. Like load preferences. Short tubes and Long tubes will undoubtedly prefer different loadings.

Now, making accurate hits with a short sight radius is a totally different story. It's much more difficult, but it can be done with effort and practice.

[Erik]

Practically speaking, most compact and sub-compacts are plenty accurate for combat/SD applications.

Heck, given he talent of the folks I was recently shooting with, they would serve their target shooting purposes nicely. (Yes, a dig on my friends. At least the ones I was shooting eith the other day. It is OK, I don't think they come here. Well, I guess I'll know shortly, at least.)

Anyway, I prefer full sized 1911s and Hi Powers, which is to say I like them slim, heavy, and relatively long in the sight radius area.

[WonderNine]

I shoot compacts terrible compared to full sized guns. Honestly this thing you say where the compacts are claimed to be more accurate is new to me, I've never heard this before. You've been reading alot of gunrags? Sounds like hype to sell a hot new compact pistol more than anything else.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

So far I hit everything accurately with my little pistols as well as my big pistols. I do just fine, thanks.

Regards,
Rabbit.

[PCRCCW]

Its common for smaller guns to shoot as well as their fullsize counter parts...but its shooter dependent.
My CZ PCR has a 3.9" barrel and enough grip to shoot very well...its not quite as accurate as my Custom CZ SA in terms of Mechanical Accuracy ie a Ransum Rest. But I shoot it better because I have more time with the gun.

Sight radius has the biggest effect on accuracy out of the criteria mentioned thus far. The longer sight radius makes the difference between the front and rear sight and any difference in proper angle have less of a negative effect on POA/POI than one with a smaller sight radius....sights you like with a great picture help ALOT.

Barrel length has very little to do with it. Example...my old SP101 with a laser grip had a 2" barrel. Using the sights I could group well with the gun..around 1-2" at 15 yds using FH loads. With the laser the same groups went to under 3/4" in a 5 shot group. Thats match grade accuracy with a 2" barrel....just take the sight radius out of the equation.

Fast and accurate shots get into grip size and ergonomics and how the shooter can shoot that specific gun. Typically the better the grip can be held the faster and more accurately it can be shot.

Shoot well

[Island Beretta]

Interesting replies but the jury still seems to be out..

I am not saying that subcompacts are not/can not be accurate and shootable, I am saying that their bigger brothers with the same design, mechanism, shape etc. but more mass, sight radius, longer grip etc. should on the whole be better in this regard. Their may be exceptions to this but ALL of them!! Pleeeaaasssseeee..

Also a subcompact in one gun design could outshoot a full size in a different design.. this is not what I am referring to.

With my Beretta compact I changed the rear sights to LPA adjustables and saw improvements in my groups and their consistency. My sight radius got almost an extra inch added.

George, a quick one: Doesn't a longer (rifled) barrel help to stabilise the spin of the bullet better so you have less fall-off downrange and so accuracy is enhanced?? One other way without going to a longer barrel is to provide more twists to the rifling as this can help stabilise the bullet as well.

Shoot well and thanks! :cool:

[Al Thompson]

IMHO, the issue is one of practical accuracy versus intrinsic accuracy. I've played with a bud's Glock 30 that was much more accurate then a Glock 21. But - the larger G21 with a longer sight radius was more accurate from a practical sense.

Most folks think that the TC Contender is usually much more accurate than a factory bolt action rifle out of the box. I'd still pick even a mediocre rifle as the stock gives me more practical or usable accuracy.

IB, as long as the bullet is stabilized, the length of the barrel is moot for accuracy. I've had a couple of 2 inch guns that would shoot rings around other guns with longer barrels. Harder to actually shoot, but very capable when held right.

If you scope a short barreled HG (removing the sight radius issue), a shorter and stiffer barrel may very well group better.

With a HG, velocity is pretty moot anyway. I've chrono'd 4 inch guns that were faster than 7 1/2 guns. Obviously the 7.5 barrel was the last off the line before the cuttting tool was out of spec and the 4 was probably made on the first run of a new cutting device. You never really know what your gun and load will do until you chrono it.

[jc2]

Probably some brand/model issues involved. In my experience, the Glock 26 is more accurate than the Glock 17. It just plain outshoots the full-sized model (but that may be a more of a reflection on the lack of accuracy of the G17 than the accuracy of the G26).

[Jerry Morris]

I shoot my Government Models to better standards than the Ultra Carrys I own. It is true that the longer sight radius and weight make it a more practically accurate pistol.

That being said, the newer small 1911 variants are amazingly accurate and reliable. They are harder to shoot to the level I can reach with the Government Model. They are much easier to carry and therefore more likely to be THERE when you need them.

I am torn between the convenience of the little guys and the real advantages of the Government Model!

Jerry

[George Hill]

Doesn't a longer (rifled) barrel help to stabilise the spin of the bullet better so you have less fall-off downrange and so accuracy is enhanced?? One other way without going to a longer barrel is to provide more twists to the rifling as this can help stabilise the bullet as well.

Not necessarily. Take for example a Thompson Center Contender and a Thompson Center Carbine both in the same caliber and both scoped with the same optics. Essentially the same guns. The only difference is the length of the tube and a shoulder stock. I think the rifling is even with the same rate of twist.
The stock adds stability that makes it easier to shoot well. The longer barrel gives better balistic energy than the shorter little brother, true. However if you bench that not so little pistol and do your job right, you will find that you can shoot the same sized shot groups... even at the same ranges.
As long as the bullet is stabilized, your fine. The little factors that go into accuracy such as barrel harmonics and such can actually favor the shorter barrel if your talking about the same barrel profile and bedding and such.
Then again, there is still a good deal of voodoo when it comes to accuracy. Such as one big named rifle I once owned that should have been printing sub moa but would do no better than 3 inches at 100M. The factory had no idea what was wrong and after a month of head scratching just sent me back a totally new rifle.

[Al Thompson]

Jerry, I know what you mean. Col. Cooper once noted that a very high number of confrontatiions occur at conversational distances. If you think about it, the BG has to be close enough to say "Gimme your money"....

As for accuracy, while I'm not in the "six inches at six feet" crowd, I think we as a whole (all shooters) tend to agonize about inconsequential increments. Of the hundreds of IDPA/IPSC matches I've beeen to, maybe 10 folks could shoot up to their hardware when under pressure.