[Bondo_Red]

I'm thinking of buying a blackpowder rifle and/or pistol.I have no personal gun experience,so how hard would it be for me to learn to clean and maintain it?Any suggestions for particular models?I won't be able to own a pistol for years since I live in MA(Which I am ashamed to be a part of),and it will probably be awhile before my FFL comes through.It seems like there have been more and more break-ins,killings,and the like lately around here,and it would be nice to have something more suited for defense in the house than my Bowie knife.I am saving most of my money for a .22 when I get my license,so I was hoping for something cheap like a pistol or sharps rifle replica under the 200$ range.I have seen a bunch on gunbroker.

[arcticap]

A black powder rifle generally only requires the routine mandatory cleaning after each range session. It can be a little tedious to keep everything really clean, depending on the exact cleaning method and how meticulous a person wants to be.
There's the soap & water method or chemical solvent method of cleaning.
Single shot pistols are almost identical to rifles, but revolvers can be a little (or a lot) more problematic simply because they have more moving parts.
Start with a sidelock single shot rifle or pistol, and shoot patched round balls for economy and ease of loading, and to have more shooting fun.
Inlines rifles are more for hunting, are more expensive to feed and harder to load. They often require swabbing after every few shots.
Then after you gain BP experience, branch out from there. :)

[Wildfire]

hey there:
Black powder is not that hard to keep clean. Just do it. The new never have to clean your gun powders are not what they are cracked up to be and usually are not very accurate. I have used BP guns for hunting deer for over 20 years. The best one I own is an Encore by T/C. They are not cheap and many on here are going to steer you toward some CHEAP gun. Some won't but most do. And you will here of every concocktion under the sun.
Soap and water cleans and kills the corrosive effects of BP. Dry it out and use a natural lube. Not a petrolium oil. You will here many other ways. This is what the good old boys use and it works. If you just put that gun away for a year at a time expect to find rust. Clean it often. The Encore is not a cheap gun but is the most accuarte one I have used yet , and I have had many. I am an Accuarcy Nut. Power does not rate as high as good accuracy. 80 grains of Pyrodex "P" with the Remington Muzzleloader only primer and Any of 3 different bullets get me 1/2" groups at 100 meters. The T/C shock waves, The Hornady SST/ML 300s, and the Knight MZ 250 or 300s. Loose powder is the only way to find an accurate load. 5 grains at a time. 110 to 120 grains of "P" is a MAX load. No matter what gun it is in. You may find some of my older post on this subject in the BP section. As I said you will here many many different storys and some are good some are maybe not so good. You and your gun will decide. If you are looking for a more traditional gun with round balls , watch for post by "Pancho" and a few others that will know what they are talking about. Good luck and happy hunting ( for your gun)

[JCT]

BP revolvers are more simple in operation than any other modern handgun, aside from loading.
Loading isn't difficult though, powder, wad, ball: seat with loading lever. when all chambers are loaded, you can then put percussion caps on the nipples.
Cleaning can be very easy, if you're not so much into the history of BP firearms, I'd suggest a Ruger Old Army .44 in stainless. It's one of the most functional and accurate BP guns ever made and being stainless, cleaning it is very easy, just wash it in the sink, dry it well and oil up the action.
You can use substitutes to keep things even cleaner, I'd recommend Hodgdon 777.
I'd love to see more and more people in Mass get BP guns just to make those nut job liberals flip out and have a stroke. Mass has such high crime even with all it's regulations. The laws don't work, they just disarm good people! I'm betting that as the economy slowly fails in the next ....2 years? ....That people will be more and more desperate and crime and violence will be a huge problem. Gun sales, NRA memberships and pro 2nd amendment activists will grow and it'll start to be evident even to the numb liberals that good people should be able to defend themselves. The founding fathers would be ashamed of what Mass has become and I was apauled when Hillary and McCain won here in NH!! Evidently Live Free or Die doesn't mean anything.
Back to BP revolvers.... Check out the ROA, read up on the basics, gun safety, get to a range or find someone that shoots BP who can help you out too. I'd trust my BP guns any day for self defense, they works then, they work now, plus, all that noise fire and smoke will certainly reduce crime and put fear into these criminals.

[Pancho]

A muzzleoader is no harder to clean than modern gun. I would suggest any Thompson Center sidelock. They're made in the U.S. and are well made and shoot great. They also have a feature called a hooked breech that alows you to easily separate the barrel from the wood. Cleaning the barrel requires the use of very hot water and dish soap in a bucket. Set the breech into bucket and use your ramrod with cleaning jag and a patch. Running the rod down the barrel and bringing it back up will form a pump and you will be sucking the soapy water through the nipple. After multiple passes you can empty the bucket and refill with very hot clear water and then repeat the above procedure to fully rinse the barrel. I usually do a final rinse with rubbing alcohol. the alcohol really gets all of the moisture out. You will have to swab out the barrel with bore butter,Clenzoil,or ballistol to prevent rustl

[mike101]

"I'd love to see more and more people in Mass get BP guns just to make those nut job liberals flip out and have a stroke."

Unfortunately, after they've had their stroke, they will just pass laws regulating BP handguns the same way cartridge guns are regulated. That's what the nannies did in NJ, and one or two other states, so far.

+1 on the stainless Old Army and 777.

[Timthinker]

Bondo, as usual, our members have given good advice. The one point I wish to make concerns in-line rifle. It is true that in-line rifles and handguns were designed primarily for hunting. But they are also capable of great accuracy. Indeed, some BP enthusiasts puchase inlines for informal target shooting and are happy with the results. I once used a Knight in-line rifle to outshoot a friend armed with a Ruger Mini-14 years ago. While I certainly do not claim in-line rifles are equal to all modern centerfire rifles in accuracy, they do merit consideration.

My Knight rifle was not hard to keep clean. The same can be said for many of the newer in-lines that have appeared in the last decade. Do not hesitate to ask about BP firearms before you buy. If anything, you will receive a wealth of useful information. Welcome aboard!


Timthinker

[mykeal]

Sorry to seem disloyal to my fellow forum members, but if home defense is your goal you need a short barrel semi-auto shotgun, like a Winchester Defender. A black powder rifle does not provide sufficient deterrent to a determined or high bad guy - one shot, under duress and in the dark, is very unlikely to be all you'd need. And while you'd have more shots with a bp revolver, the shotgun has a much better chance of needing fewer shots in that situation than a bullet.

I'm a bp enthusiast, and I'd like to see you become interested in our sport. But for home defense there's a better way.

[Donny]

Bondo Red,

Mykeal is correct, the best tool for self/home defense is a shot gun. I think MA requires an FFL transfer for BP guns but I might be wrong. The fellas here are Ruger fans but they are expensive and you said something about a $200 range. A cap and ball revolver in .44 cal is quite deadly and less than $300 in a steel frame. Properly loaded and cared for a cap and ball revolver can be a dependable and effective self defense tool. It isn't hard to maintain you just need to clean it immediatly after every time you shoot it. I am very fussy when I clean mine and it takes me 45 minutes to an hour. Some fellas do it in 15 minutes. I'm not necessarily recommending a cap and ball revolver for self defense but it beats having nothing and personally, I'd take it over a .22. Just my two cents.

Don

[pohill]

I think MA requires an FFL transfer for BP guns but I might be wrong.
Nope. Ma doesn't require anything to buy or receive a BP gun, but you do need an FID card to buy the powder. Or just go to Maine.
Why don't you get an FID (Firearms Identification Card) and get a shotgun? What part of MA do you live in that is so crime ridden?
I've lived in MA just about all my life and, despite all the liberals (not only in MA but all surrounding states) I own every gun that I want to own, no problem.
Bondo Red, I'm curious - you don't have a MA firearms license, or an FID card, and you don't have any personal gun experience, but you're waiting on a FFL? Do you think that the FFL will supercede the MA license?

[Pancho]

As I understand the FFL it might be more bother than worth. FFL license owners must keep perfect records of buys and sells and the records which are subject to inspection at anytime. The records must show that the licensee is moving guns not just buying them.

[pohill]

The founding fathers would be ashamed of what Mass has become
Yeah, I'd be curious as to what a bunch of slave owners thought about the loss of some personal liberties.

[Bondo_Red]

Well I will be turning 18 in april,and the only thing I'm asking for a present(aside from a book and some beef jerky) is for my parents to help me get a FFL.I'm not really in a crime ridden area,but I still want insurance.Plus I won't be able to own a pistol for a while since I'll be spending at least a year in college in MA,and a blackpowder pistol would let me do that.I didn't think there were any laws reguarding owning one even here in MA.I thought you just order one off the internet without having to go through the customary interrogations.Does anybody know for a fact whether you need any license or anything to own a BP gun in MA?

[pohill]

Like I said, I've owned every handgun that I wanted in MA, but I have a Class A Permit to Carry. Am I happy with the gun laws in MA? No. I'm more concerned with the way teens (and other age groups) drive than with who is carrying what gun.
Anyways, you can buy a BP revolver from, say, Cabelas, and have it shipped to your house without having a permit or an FID card, but to own that gun and buy powder for it, you have to possess an FID card. I know, it falls under the category of an antique, and technically it's not a firearm, but that's where the MA laws get screwy. Call the State Police Public Safety people and hear it from them - they will get you if you're not totally "legal."
Why don't you get an FID card? You have to be at least 18 and take a Hunter's Safety course, but what the heck - then you can own rifles and BP guns legally. Plus, when you're 21 and apply for a permit to carry, the fact that you've had an FID card for three years looks good.
How old do you have to be to get an FFL license? A FFL license, by itself, will not allow you to own a handgun in MA.
And remember - VOTE when you're old enough.

[John4me05]

I have used BP guns for hunting deer for over 20 years. The best one I own is an Encore by T/C. They are not cheap and many on here are going to steer you toward some CHEAP gun. Some won't but most do. And you will here of every concocktion under the sun.


Whats wrong with cheaper bought BP guns.. I strictly own and shoot CVA BP guns.. 2 side locks and 2 inlines... And i have went shot for shot and actually a few times out shot TCs and Knights and Winchesters... My load for hunting and for competitions is 100gr of triple 7 pellets under a 285gr Powerbelt HP... It produces 1 hole groups and doesnt need swabbed so much as the saboted bullets my friends shoot.. After 10 shots or so it takes 2 patches of cleaner patches (pre made in a plastic jar) and 1 dry patch and then snap a cap to dry and then load and fire away..

Aint no way in hell i would drop 700 or more bucks on a front stuffer..

[mykeal]

I recently spent some time looking into an FFL. You have little chance of getting one at age 18 simply because you must be able to show that you are or intend to be a dealer. The BATFE will be looking for a business operated in a business location by a person experienced or trained in business theory and practice. In other words, if you don't have a storefront location (your basement or kitchen table is not sufficient) and have either worked at managing a business or have a business degree, they will be very reluctant to grant a Type 01 FFL.

A Type 03 (Curios and Relics) is a possibility, however. It's less expensive and will get you used to the truly incredible paperwork and record keeping requirements of an FFL.

[Bondo_Red]

I didn't mean FFL.Whats the one that lets me own guns,and FID? Are the laws so screwy that I need a FID to own a blackpowder gun?

[eatont9999]

Been there done that. In MA you must have at least a class B license to buy a BP revolver. I went to NH and ME, but they want you to be 21 or older. Just have an older friend go up to the Kittery Trading Post and buy you a used steel frame BP revolver. You are looking at less than $200 for the gun alone then supplies. That is where I found out ME wants you to be 21+ for a BP revolver!! In MA, you may own a BP revolver in your home at age 18, but you cannot buy one or take it out of the house without at least a class B LTC.

I still do not have the BP revolver. I want to get one, but I used that money to buy a Mauser Kar98k. I want the BP revolver mainly for a bedside gun until I get a class A and I can get a nice .357 or .45 ACP. For now, I keep my SKS locked and loaded in case I hear a crash in the night. I live in Haverhill, so there are some thugs around.

You must be 21 years old to get a C&R as well. I know, I have been there. It asks you on the application.

You really need to be 21 to handle anything shaped like a handgun. The magical change happens between age 18 and 21. All the sudden you are so much more responsible you can decide what to ingest and defend yourself with.

Thanks Massachusetts!! We love rules and regulations!! Anything to make the constitution null and void!!

[eatont9999]

At age 18, you can buy and posses a muzzle loading long gun in MA. Other than that, you need an FID. Oh yeah...ammo and powder, well FID for that as well. Make another trip to the KTP and get that. You can buy a BP long gun, ammo, powder, and caps at age 18 in Maine. I don't know if you must have an FID to posess powder, ammo and caps; but I think it is just to buy them. Work on getting your FID if you can.

It costs money for the safety course and license fees, but it is nice to have. It won't get you far, but it will hold you over until age 21, then you may apply for a class A. When applying, always go for the class A. The worst they can do is put a restriction on it or issue a class B, but 8/10 times you get the class A.

[pohill]

Get the FID card. It will be worth it. But remember, if you have an FID card that allows you to own a BP handgun, it does not allow you to carry that gun concealed. Then it's a concealed weapon, regardless of its classification as an antique.
Kittery is the place to go. Great selection.

eatont9999 - yep, Haverhill can be a problem, especialy with Lowell and Lawrence on the other side.
I shoot in Newton, NH.

[Bondo_Red]

Could someone tell how to apply for a FID?Cuz my parents are real procrastinators and it'll be years before I get a license if its up to them.there are a ton of people that tell me how to do it,yet they all say something different.It would be really nice if someone could walk me through it.I have a feeling if I ask the local police about it they will take me in for interrogation and ask who I was planning to murder.

[pohill]

Call your local Police Dept. They will, or should, issue it after you jump through the hoops.

[Rachen]

Yeah, I'd be curious as to what a bunch of slave owners thought about the loss of some personal liberties.:barf:

Sorry, but please don't insult the Founding Fathers

[pohill]

Sorry, but please don't insult the Founding Fathers
Insult or fact?

[Wildfire]

Hey there:
John, I meant no offence to the cheap guns. I also was not aware of Bondos age or any of the other facts that he stated, my post and reply to him were before any of this was stated. I did give my 2 cents worth. The Encore statement stands.. They are top quality guns .. May be somewhat out of range for an 18 year old starting college and such.
My statement on the Encore was not to slam cheaper (Less expensive guns)
but to offer what mine does and let him decide. I also stated that if that was not what he was after that there were others on here that could point him in that direction. After many years of testing many different BP rifles and working on them for others, my findings were that you get what you pay for. That is not to say that a less expensive Quality CVA could not be a good gun. Sounds as if you must have one. My Encore will toss 1/2" center to center groups at 100 meters , But if your CVA side lock will do one hole with powder and bullets that are not known for their target accuracy qualities , then you best not let that rifle out of your sight. Anyway, Good luck Bondo with your search and happy shooting John.......;)

[JCT]

Fact and Insult. The founding fathers were lot's of things... Focusing on only the negative is insulting.
"I'd be curious to know what a bunch of brilliant freedom/liberty fighters would think". They were that too.
Slave owners; maybe yes, but also brilliant American heros and architects of this country.

[Feanaro]

Insult or fact?

It is a fact that some Founding Fathers owned slaves and approved of slavery... as it is a fact that some owned no slaves and disapproved of slavery.

[pohill]

Take my comment about the "Founding Fathers" (can you name them?) in the context that it was used - as a reply to the comment, "The founding fathers would be ashamed of what Mass has become." Would the "Founding Fathers", some of them men who actually owned other humans, be "ashamed" of what Massachusetts has become, simply because of our tough gun laws? Give me a break. I think they'd look around at all the medical, academic and cultural advances and give a big thumbs up. Not to mention the fact that Massachusetts has honored them by keeping their positive accomplishments alive and relevant through all these years.
If anyone thinks that the anti-gun movement started in MA, is worse in Ma, or is basically contained to the East Coast, well, take a good look around.
I'd still be curious as to what a bunch of slave owners thought about the loss of some personal liberties. If that is an insulting statement to anyone - tough crap.

[John4me05]

Hey there:
John, I meant no offence to the cheap guns. I also was not aware of Bondos age or any of the other facts that he stated, my post and reply to him were before any of this was stated. I did give my 2 cents worth. The Encore statement stands.. They are top quality guns .. May be somewhat out of range for an 18 year old starting college and such.
My statement on the Encore was not to slam cheaper (Less expensive guns)
but to offer what mine does and let him decide. I also stated that if that was not what he was after that there were others on here that could point him in that direction. After many years of testing many different BP rifles and working on them for others, my findings were that you get what you pay for. That is not to say that a less expensive Quality CVA could not be a good gun. Sounds as if you must have one. My Encore will toss 1/2" center to center groups at 100 meters , But if your CVA side lock will do one hole with powder and bullets that are not known for their target accuracy qualities , then you best not let that rifle out of your sight. Anyway, Good luck Bondo with your search and happy shooting John.......

Not a problem... My sidelock roundballers are very very accurate for a factory open sight gun.. Not a 1 holer at 100 but do produce 3/4-1 1/4 inch groups at 100 depending on the humidity and temp... The inlines i use to hunt and shoot comp as well at a local shooting club... They produce a 3 shot 1 hole group about 1/2" at 100yds... I have shot a TC and a couple other manufacturers and they do have quality products... My method of thinking has always been to use the cheaper to buy stuff so i can afford to get mroe accesories for them... I like the TC changeable barrels but the CVA company also produces a fine front stuffer with changeable rifle barrels... Truth be known if i dropped 700+ on a TC i might could scope it and shoot it 4 months later... If i drop the same 700 on the CVA i could be at the range as soon as i leave the store...

[eatont9999]

The path I took to get my FID was to first take a safety course. You can find these safety courses all over the place. Gun shops and gun clubs often have licensed members who will give courses on the occasion. You should look on your town's local website in the firearms regulations section to see if there is a listing of teachers in the area. I contacted the local gun club and found a really good guy through them.

Once the course is out of the way and you get your certificate, you may call the local police station and schedule a meeting with the licensing officer for an FID application. He will give you a date and when you come in, he will fill out an application for you on the computer, take your picture, and fingerprints. I waited approximately six weeks for the card to come in the mail.

Meanwhile, I suggest you consider becoming a member of a local gun club or organization for several reasons. Firstly, it looks good for you to be an active shooter when applying for a higher license later down the road. Secondly, it gives you a low cost place to shoot. Some ranges charge $25 per session. I like to shoot at least once a week, so it adds up quickly. I joined the local club for a total of $155. I can go to the range almost any day during reasonable hours and they have three nice ranges, fishing areas, dog running, competitions, etc. No matter what you shoot, you will need to practice it.

That is my story and I am sticking to it!!

[J.T. Gerrity]

I'd love to see more and more people in Mass get BP guns just to make those nut job liberals flip out and have a stroke.


Unfortunately, after they've had their stroke, they will just pass laws regulating BP handguns the same way cartridge guns are regulated. That's what the nannies did in NJ, and one or two other states, so far.




ENOUGH!!! I've put up with a shload of crap like this, and I'm tired of letting it pass. I get so sick of Liberal bashing on this forum! Do you think you regressive Conservatives are the only ones who own guns and read these forums? Do a search, and you'll find plenty of Liberal/ Democratic bashing, but very few that condemn the Covservative point of view, especially those stuck-in-the-mud conservative Republican Neanderthals that have taken this Country to hell in a handbasket! Frankly, if I were a freakin' Conservative, I'd keep it quiet and slink away to hide my head in shame, not broadcast it by making inane statements like this! We Liberals have better things to do than pass our time dissing our fellow forum members! Christ! If the founding fathers hadn't had forward thinking liberal views, you'd still be kissing Queen Elizabeth's a**!

And, regarding the founding fathers and slavery, it was how you did buisness in the Eighteenth century if you were a plantation owner. It's how it had been for hundreds of years; that is, it was the status quo. Furtunately, that was starting to change (thanks to those "Liberal" thinking abolishionists, whose ideals were constantly being opposed by the Conservative majority), but it meant changing a whole way of doing things, and those things are difficult to do. T. Jefferson, himself, said that slavery was "Like holding a wolf by the ears... you don't like the situation, but you don't dare let go".

Please understand that I do not condone slavery in any way, shape or form, but we have to be careful when judging Eighteenth century values from a Twenty-first century point of view.

This forum is for Black Powder shooters, and this thread is about maintaining Black Powder guns, for Christs sake! If you want to go off topic and bash each other, take it somewhere else! We don't have time for it here!

GRRRR!!!

[eatont9999]

The reason he said liberals was not to offend you in a personal way, but to cite the political party most responsible for putting restrictions on lawful gun ownership. Terms like liberal, conservative, democrat and republican are general terms used to define the majority views of certain group of people. We understand not everyone is an uber-liberal or uber-conservative and his or her viewpoints may differ from the majority.

You may want to take it less personally when people refer to a general group. I am a conservative, but I do not think the country should go back to the 1800s. I understand your frustration. In Massachusetts, conservatives are far and few between. I take a lot of heat from anyone who finds out I am conservative. I get attacked personally from many people who cannot support their arguments, but I stick to my guns and give my reasons. I work with a lot of these people and am close friends with others. I don't take what they say personally, but respect the fact they have a right to say it. You should never take a political viewpoint personally, but defend the ones you believe in with all your strength.

[JCT]

In response to above posts:

It's more than gun laws, but.....I was referring to the liberals that have banned guns, imposed ridiculous laws in general and turned mass right back into the place the founding fathers despised ( an over taxed, over regulated, socialist state ), now with mandated healthcare and warrantless searches! Mass crime rates at best stay the same, too high. Yet they don't seem to be learning their lessons about disarming the law abiding people. I have alot of family in Mass, or as they call it, "Taxachusetts" .
I didn't mean to generalize about liberals and I would actually prefer some liberals to our current "neocon" administration. On the same hand, if the current administration was my model for conservatism, I'd have to become a liberal. Printing money, pursuing wars and overspending have never been characteristics of true traditional conservatives anyway. There needs to be a new name for the current administration, not Conservative, not Liberal, maybe detrimental? We've got serious work ahead of us to fix the last 8 years of stirring up trouble, borrowing money weakining the economy and letting all the jobs go overseas..etc...etc
With any luck, we'll see some "crossover" bipartisan teamwork in the next administration and we can hopefully correct our situation and policies before it's past the point of no return.
Anyway, back to BP..... Please don't take comments personally, I refer to only the "nut jobs" I have knows or am aware of. I'm an equal opportunity disliker, on a case by case basis. Any liberal that's a member of the high road too is good in my book, sorry for anything that was offensive :)

[J.T. Gerrity]

There are plenty of Conservative "Nut Jobs" out there... start with Congress and take it all the way to the Oval Office. Besides, unless you want to discuss Black Powder shooting or the maintainance of BP firearms, your commentary is not appropriate for this thread.

[Im283]

Funny, I used to consider myself a liberal. I do not think my views have changed all that much but rather the Democratic party has gone so far to the left I am now not aligned with their thoughts.

Funny also that liberty is a root for the word liberal. The libs want to restrict liberty now. Kind of oxy-moronic isn't it?

[JCT]

J.T., I agree and that's why I wanted to say, I didn't mean to generalize. And yes, let's get back to Black Powder.

[J.T. Gerrity]

I prefer Hodgdon's 777, myself; another good BP solvent is Outers BP solvent. Both will give you a clean gun without the risk of damaging it with water. Not only is it convenient, but it can be taken with you in the field for cleaning when no water is available.

[pohill]

Hats off to J.T. Gerrity for his verbal sleight of hand. Not only did he chastise us for presenting our political views, he did it while presenting his political views. A true politician. Now, I'm just ribbing you so don't get angry.