[BHPshooter]

Okay guys, I went shooting yesterday, and I have to get this off my chest.

Well yesterday, my buddy and I went in to Sportsmans Warehouse, and of course, I spent all of the cash I brought with me. I got some new Hogue wraparound finger-groove grips for my BHP, some electronic muffs, a new hat and a new shirt.

So last night at about 7:00, we decided to go shooting, so I could try out my new grips and earmuffs. We were having a jolly old time, and I was hitting better with my new grips than ever before. My muffs were working very well -- they are so cool!

We soon saw a cottontail rabbit come out of it's hiding place. Now we have our small game licences, so we threw a couple of shots it's way. We were shooting in a natural pit, so there was no way it could have gone anywhere without us seeing. We came up on it, me on the right, my buddy on the left. Well, there it is, so I take quick aim, sure that I'll miss, and fire. It immediately jumped and flailed like it was in a popcorn popper. After a couple seconds, it slowed down enough to see the wound.

The bullet, just some cheap Wolf 9mm, hit it right below and slightly in front of the eye. It blew its face off, literally. Now, wounded rabbits generally scream. This one tried, but for its lack of a face, just made really disgusting gurgling sounds. And if it weren't for my wonderful new earmuffs, I wouldn't have had to hear them. :( :barf: :(

Now, right in accordance with my luck, it was my last shot. The poor thing was there, faceless, squirming. So I yell to my buddy, "Shoot it!" as I run back for some more ammo. Luckily, by the time I got back (about 30 seconds), my friend had put the little guy out of his misery.

There are no words to describe how horrible I felt. :( I still feel terrible about it. What made me feel worst was that I couldn't deliver a humane, clean kill. Worse, I believe that if you shoot something, you should eat it, and if you're not going to eat it (if it is edible), the you shouldn't shoot it. The thing was that, after seeing it like that, I was almost sick, and couldn't even think about eating it. We ended up giving it a resting place where perhaps the poor guy's body won't go to waste.

So that whole thing kind of went against my ethics twice.




Well, now that i have that done with, does anyone have any similar or relatable experiences? Misery loves company.

:( :uhoh: Wes

P.S. Do you think I'm going to hell?

[Shalako]

Maybe, chaulk it up to some necessary de-sensitizing. I know its kind of gross, but stuff like that happens if you have to hunt for any sort of subsistence or survival or if, heaven forbid, you have to put down a badguy. Also, I try to remember that folks like the pioneers used to have to endure much greater atrocities than a wounded critter out on the plains. A little desensitizing now could help your reaction time later if your focus is required.

I've got a similar rabbit story, too. Lets just say, even shotguns don't have a 100% one shot stop record on rabbits. Until my friend showed me the karate-chop method to the back of the neck, I thought maybe the butt of the shotgun might be effective....uh, not so.

Live and learn. Thats the key.

[Devonai]

"If trees screamed, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might if they screamed all the time, for no good reason." - Jack Handey

I prefer the native American way of looking at hunting. You respect the life you are about to take, and thank the animal's spirit for sacrificing itself for your continued life and health.

I would hunt for recreation, but I would only take what I could then later use, or sell. Killing an animal just for pleasure and then burying the corpse is not my idea of a good time.

[TarpleyG]

That's why I don't hunt anymore. I've been pheasant hunting once since I was a kid. Almost twenty years. I didn't kill any. Just can't deal with it. Sorry if I offend some of you tougher types.

Now fishing....that's another story.

GT

[Carlos Cabeza]

YOUR"E GONNA BURN !!!!:evil: :neener: J/K. Before I learned how to shoot up and downhill and at different ranges using a scope, I clipped a small buck high in the shoulders and severed the spinal column. The damn thing cried like a baby. It sounded just like a kid crying. I was so distraught, I nearly fell down a fairly steep hill. I tried to quickly end its suffering by putting a .357 to the animal's CNS. I almost reconsidered my love for hunting that day ! :p Yeah right............ But it did give me more respect for game hunting and my responsibility to humanely and effectively take my quarry.

When in doubt, let it walk. There'll be other opportunities. :cool:

I prefer the native American way of looking at hunting. You respect the life you are about to take, and thank the animal's spirit for sacrificing itself for your continued life and health.

Beautiful, Definitely how I look at it.

[BHPshooter]

I would hunt for recreation, but I would only take what I could then later use, or sell. Killing an animal just for pleasure and then burying the corpse is not my idea of a good time.

Which is half of the reason that I had such a hard time with it. I didn't bury it, hoping that some coyotes may need a meal. I really do feel terrible, though.

Maybe, chaulk it up to some necessary de-sensitizing. I know its kind of gross, but stuff like that happens if you have to hunt for any sort of subsistence or survival or if, heaven forbid, you have to put down a badguy.

And that's exactly what I thought about afterwards -- It was pretty tough looking at a rabbit with it's face blown off, and I can only imagine how tough it would be to look at a BG that you had to shoot in the face. But on the other hand, the rabbit never hurt anyone, and never would have. If I was faced with shooting a violent baddie, I would feel I had a duty to do it. I think that would make it easier to deal with.

*sigh*

Wes

[4v50 Gary]

Shot a squirrel that was high up in a tree. Didn't realize it was eating something so when I went for a headshot, it shattered the nut and disembowled the critter. Down it fell and it gave out a human screech before running up another tree. I finished it off with a .410.

Like Devonai says, pay respect to that you kill and thank it for giving its life so that yours can continue. Whereas Chinese philosophy talked about harmonizing with nature, the Indians did it.

[Iain]

Being a Brit I really haven't done any hunting, was shooting woodpigeon on my cousins' farm when I was about twelve. Hit the thing and ran to finish it, it was drowning in it's own blood. Wasn't too nice to see at twelve, as a city boy was quite guilty for a while. My six year old cousin caught up with us and picked the thing up by its head and swung it around, little barbarian that he was. Since then not been hunting but have seen nastier things happen to humans.

[Doug444]

Well, just one more thing to make you feel worse than you already feel:

Regardless of whether or not you had your SG license, COTTONTAIL rabbits are NOT in season presently. Check your upland game proclaimation and you'll see that the season doesn't start until September typically. I don't have the current one handy, but I'd be willing to bet you've just committed a game violation. :( :mad: Don't remember the Hunter Ed class video where the admonition was "you don't practice on wildlife!", eh?

I don't mean to be a hardass, but as a HE instructor I find this to be particularly bad behavior. I can't always remember you guys' "rule numbering" system, but something about "know your target" comes to mind. Ethics is how you behave when no one's there, concience is how you feel afterwards.

Off my soapbox now.

Doug444

[Atticus]

Out of season - not good.
Headshot with pistol- not bad
Wasting more ammo on a wounded rabbit - very bad- that's why you wear shoes.

[Greybeard]

Pheasant hunting with college roommate many years ago. He was carryin' 16 gauge with safety off and finger inside of trigger guard. Stepped in unseen badger hole and came within inches of blowing HIS face off. End of that hunt. And end of huntin' forever with him.

[Edward429451]

that's why you wear shoes.

Agreed. Squirrels, rabbits, who needs a finishing shot? Step on thier head.

You did eat it didn't you?:scrutiny:

My most disappointing hunting trip was the one I didn't get to go.:(

[Dr.Rob]

I came close to stopping hunting once after I saw a guy tormenting a wounded antelope. (kicking it etc)

I have never come closer to firing a shot in anger in my life.

I got really mad at a guy I know who shot a coyote 'just to hear it howl'.

I'm not dumping on rancers doing predator control or anyone that made a mistake.

You made a mistake, you feel remorse about it. That's a step in the right direction. You have a duty as a hunter, in my opinion, to make as swift and clean a kill as possible. If you don't eat what you kill, you should still try to kill it cleanly.

But jerk-off sadistic bloodlust rambo wannabes just make me :cuss: :fire: wish I had windego powers.

[redneck]

I only do varmint control around the farm right now. Mostly trap and shoot.
There have been times when an animal didn't die as quickly as I would have liked it too (Every time really, they make it look so much better on TV :rolleyes: )
The important thing is to finish the job rather than freeze up and let it suffer. Sounds like you did your best at that.
And to try and figure out if there was anything you did wrong, that should be done differently in the future. A head shot with a 9mm should put a rabbit down nicely. Most folks hunt them with .22LR . You basically just had bad luck.
I think your biggest problem is that you didn't really intend to kill it and surprised yourself. "took quick aim, expecting to miss". That is your only problem. Only shoot at an animal if you plan to kill it, and are confident that you can.

Don't be so hard on yourself though, it really didn't turn out that bad in the end. Lots of people do things a lot worse every day.

[Shalako]

I think we need to make a distinction between Bloodlust Sickos and an honest mistake with the attendant gory side effects...

The original poster seems an ethical guy with honest concerns.

[Joe Demko]

The ongoing discussion over several threads concerning hunting ethics forces me to ask: If it is okay kill animals for enjoyment, as many varmint hunters do (whether they admit it or not), why is it not okay to enjoy an animal suffering, too? Scads of varmint hunters whack groundhogs, prairie dogs, etc. for enjoyment. When I was a kid, in the pre-sanitary landfill days, some guys went to the dump just to shoot rats. Other examples are available. The beneficial aspects from killing these animals was incidental to the enjoyment of shooting/killing them. So, again, why is it okay to enjoy death but not pain?
As it happens, I enjoy neither. I am an avid hunter, but I eat what I shoot and go to great lengths to ensure a clean kill. The kill itself is not a pleasure to me, but is unavoidable in the quest for meat. Now, I am a biologist and not sentimental about animals. I am curious about shooters, though.

[Stinger]

Personally, I prefer not to hunt unless I'm gonna eat the animal. Pest control is definitely an exception.

I always try to take the animal as quickly and humanely as possible, mostly for my own sake. Predatory animals do the same thing, because if they end the encounter quickly, there is less chance they will be injured or killed.

For example, a pack of lions killing a zebra, etc. But sometimes it takes several minutes, or maybe half an hour to take down a very large animal. The lions do not feel remorse for having inflicted pain on their prey. They are just happy that they have a great meal!

We are of course different that other animals. We can, and probably should, feel remorse for inflicting pain when it is unnecessary.

So, what does all of this mean? If you are hunting, try to be as efficient as possible. But if the kill is not as clean as you would like, don't dwell on it. Don't lose sleep over it. If you hesitate in the field, you may lose your opportunity for a meal. Just try to figure out what you did wrong and be sure not to do it again.

Stinger

[Carlos]

Thefumegator, you're alright in my book.

[Art Eatman]

One of my chores as a little kid was to go to my grandmother's chickenyard and catch and kill Sunday dinner. And, on a farm in those days, if you wanted bacon or ham, you slaughtered a hog (maybeso once or twice a year, depending on family size.)

I learned early on, then, that if you want to eat, something's gonna die.

At the same time, I learned not to be cruel to animals, via, "You leave that cat alone!" and suchlike. :)

The years went by and I learned about the ethics of the interactions between people and animals. I've given a good bit of thought to the whole issue of varmints...

Jeff Cooper recommends Sr. Ortega y Gasset as good reading about the ethics of hunting, and I concur...

At any rate, anybody can make a mistake. So? Smart folks work at not making the same mistake twice. One way of looking at it is that thefumegator's mistake was in using his last cartridge. Anybody can make a bad hit, but a quick coup de grace gives a certain degree of redemption.

Art

[BHPshooter]

Regardless of whether or not you had your SG license, COTTONTAIL rabbits are NOT in season presently. Check your upland game proclaimation and you'll see that the season doesn't start until September typically. I don't have the current one handy, but I'd be willing to bet you've just committed a game violation. Don't remember the Hunter Ed class video where the admonition was "you don't practice on wildlife!", eh?

Please, let me clarify. I left this out of my original post out of consideration for those who fall asleep easily.

When the rabbit came out, my buddy said "It's a Jack!" Once I did hit it, I still thought it was a jack -- looked just like one. Mottled brown color, but just a little fluffy white ball for a tail. Now the reason this threw me is because I had pet bunnies as a kid, we got them as an Easter present. The "cottontail" that we had was all white. I always thought that a cottontail was all white. I still thought that until my friend said, "Oh, that's a cottontail!"

So, while ignorance still is no excuse, and I am still in the wrong, it was an honest misinformed mistake. I thought it was a jackrabbit. I know better now.

Wes

[Edward429451]

Y'ever see a Jack?

HUGE difference.:D

[Rebeldon]

The most disturbing thing I ever saw while hunting was several deer carcases that were thrown into a ditch to rot with only the tenderloin cut out. That's just wrong!

[Powderman]

Well, here it is.

A couple of years back, I went back East to visit my wife's relatives. Her uncle had sold me a custom .220 Swift, and I took it groundhog hunting (with the land owner's permission). Ended up making the only kill of the day--a nice offhand 150 yard snapshot, with the groundhog just barely showing his head above ground. The landowner wanted the land cleared because the 'hogs were raising hell with his crops and animals (holes for them to step in). So, this was all OK by me.

We were on the way back, on this dirt road when the whole convoy (about five trucks) came to a slow stop. I saw everyone getting out slowly, and saw a guy in the lead truck slowly resting his rifle on the hood. The rifle was pointing across the truck, and I looked to where it was pointed.

There, about 75 yards off was the cutest fox I ever saw. It was actually playing--PLAYING--with an ear of corn, tossing it about. I smiled for a second--then put two and two together.

Oh, NO!

Just then, the guy took the shot. The fox started to run in circles, snapping at its gut. I was horrified; everyone else was laughing!

The idiot took another shot. Now, the fox was dragging itself on the ground.

I actually had a round chambered in my Swift. I was seriously going to put one right in that guy's a**, call it an accident, and see how he liked being shot for fun.

Our great white hunter finally strode up to the fox and put it out of its suffering after about 5 minutes with a head shot.

I was really sickened by the whole affair.

[Slingster]

Perhaps the saddest thing I've ever seen while hunting was in Africa, when our PH took us to find a blue wildebeest that had been wounded by a previous client. We found it dead and partially eaten, but the worst part was that we discovered that the hunter had shot it in the head, breaking the lower jaw but hitting nothing vital. The poor beast had wandered around horribly wounded for days, unable to eat or drink, until it died from dehydration and/or starvation, or was taken down by a predator in its weakened state. Very sad.

[Art Eatman]

Slingster, lemme change the frame of reference for you. Back some dozen or so years, a fellow came out to Terlingua to hunt mule deer. He had excellent luck; he headed out to hunt around noon, and by 3PM had a nice buck on the ground.

Approaching the deer, he saw bald patches and claw marks on the deer. A lion had jumped it, but hadn't been able to kill it. However, the deer had been driven into the ground so hard that the lower gum-bone was broken loose, with the teeth just flopping.

The deer had been unable to eat for a week or so (judging by the scabs on the claw marks). "He was dead and just didn't know it."

On one hunt, I shot a quail. I followed the rest of the covey and then came back to the downed bird. A hawksbill shrike had found it. He had started eating on the wounded, but not yet dead, bird.

The crux of it all is that people have volition. With knowledge and ethics we don't do cruel and stupid things to animals. Or each other, for that matter.

Art

"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement."--Anon.

[mtnbkr]

I've been lucky in that I hunt with a good bunch that don't take sloppy shots or intentionally wound animals. However, sometimes mistakes are made.

Once, during general firearms season, one of our guys shot at a deer and missed, breaking the deer's leg. This guy has made nothing but clean, ethical kills since I've known him. I don't know if his scope was off or he pulled the shot or what happened. Either way, another one in our group chased/tracked the deer over 3 or 4 ridges until he could make a killing shot. They shared the meat.

Another time, during early blackpowder season, another in our group was using a replica .58cal Springfield muzzleloader (I think that was the make, it's a type frequently used by CW reenactors) to hunt deer. He got a good, clear shot at a deer that was less than 50yds away. His shot was less than ideal (he hit the liver, but didn't penetrate the deer fully). The deer gets up, he reloads and shoots again, hitting the deer in the chest. Deer goes down, gets up again. He shoots it again. Now, he's out of reloads and can't do anything but wait. By this time, another in our group is coming up to help with the field dressing and "dragging out" duties. When hunter #2 shows up, the deer gets up and starts to wobble off. From all acounts, there was blood everywhere. Hunter #2 shoots and kills the deer. All three shots from the first rifle were killing shots, but the bullet/load didn't perform well. He has since switched to a better gun that can handle a larger charge. At the time, he was unaware that the replica gun's max charge was too low to hunt with.

Both times, the deer were not allowed to get away to suffer later. In the second case, my friend stopped hunting with that gun and bought a better one. You learn and move on.

We did meet one slob that should've been ejected from the GWNF forcefully. This was last early BP season and he came into our camp looking for people to help him track a wounded deer that he shot. He lost the blood trail at a creek and needed help finding it and following it further. We did so and tracked the wounded deer for a couple miles up the side of the mtn behind camp. It had started raining and the blood drops were getting smaller as well. After a few hours, we completely lost the track. We fanned out and went in the direction the deer appeared to be heading, but never found any new sign. Turns out, the slob made a neck shot and the deer was strong enough to keep pushing up the mtn and through the laurel. On the way back, we came across the carcass of a gutshot deer. Upon seeing it, the slob exclaims "there's the deer I shot yesterday, I knew he was around here somewhere". I never wanted to hurt someone so bad before. :fire:

BTW, we saw his truck in the area during general firearms season as well. He just can't take a hint. :banghead:

Chris

[sm]

I quit hunting with a certain crowd, in fact I quit even associating with them period.

Cold winter misty morning I'm riding down in one of their 4x4s to duck hunt, I hear shots some distance behind me, but it didn't register, deer season was in progress too.

After I had noticed the fellas in the blind I was to share each had fifths of whiskey,seems as if this bunch had already taken a pretty good portion of the booze already.I decided to leave the blind and hunt alongside another, standing in the water. I fell a pair of greeheads making vocal my retrieval, blind closest said ok. I proceed out and I darn near had my head blown off while retrieving my ducks, because someone figured they could shoot over my head and that'd be ok.

I retreive the ducks ,waded to the other side and kept walking, 2 miles in mud and muck in waders is work. I see the deer, fresh kill from the direction I heard the shot earlier. The story I found out later is deer tended to cross this farm/field every morning about the same time.The time being about an hour before time to head to the duck blinds. Fellas would wait and give chase and shoot form moving vehicles. This buck had obviously figured this out and waited. His fatal mistake was thinking the fellas wouldn't shoot with guests an hour or so later.

Irony...these folks had money,old family money, held positions in the community, big business and public eye.

[stephen_g22]

When I was new to deer hunting I took a shot at a really nice older whitetail buck. The buck kicked out with his hind legs and ran towards some brush, slowed to a walk and walked into the brush out of sight.

My dad did not see the shot and told me I probably missed because the deer ran off. We looked for blood or signs of a hit but could find none. I knew I hit the buck but could not find any proof. The next day we had to leave for home so I could not go back.

That spring the rancher found a 13 point buck carcass - mostly skeleton in the brush where I had seen the buck disappear into. I had wasted a beautiful deer and probably squandered my best opportunity for a trophy buck. I did not hunt deer again for many years.

It haunts me to this day.

The next deer hunt I went on, I went alone and shot a smaller 8 point buck. At the shot, it kicked up its hind legs and ran toward some brush, slowed to a walk and disappeared into the brush. I prayed that I would not lose another deer. I walked into the brush and found the deer dead from a double lung shot.

Now I mainly hunt deer for the meat, taking one maybe two doe a season. I will not take a shot that I am not sure I can make. I do not want to lose another deer, although I am fairly sure if I continue to hunt that it will happen again one of these days.

[rock jock]

Let's see, ten years ago I would have been horrified reading your post. But like shalako, I have been desensitized. Just part of learning about life and death, I guess. Anyway, my bad stories include:

- My very first hunt for anything. I shot a nubbing buck through the back of the head and blew most of its nose and sinus cavity out. It quivered for a minute or two and I almost cried. I felt like I was going to be sick.

- On more than one duck hunt, I'll pick up a duck that I have shot that is still flopping around trying to fly off. Now, the standard method of dispatching a duck or goose is to grab its head and kind of spin it around the neck until your hear a pop. This is so you don't ruin the meat and also saves on ammo. A couple of times those dang ducks must have spines made of rubber. I'll think I have killed it and then in the duck blind I hear it still trying to flap its wings. Ugghh! Gives you a real sickening feel

- On a squirrel hunt I once wounded one of the furry tree rats and finished it off by decapitation with my hunting knife. Headless squirrel moving its legs is not a pretty sight.

[stephen_g22]

I do have my oooh gross story too.

My friend and I were hunting 3 years ago and it is getting late in the day. We have seen many doe and a small spike. My friend decides if he sees a large enough doe, he will take her. Low and behold one walks right towards the blind and stops 25 yards away. Ask and ye shall receive.

My friend aims for the white spot at the top of the neck and squeezes off a shot. His .270 was zeroed in at 150 yards so it would hit about 2 - 4 inches high at 25 yards. Add in a little rise because he is shooting down from the blind at the doe. The bullet hits just under the doe's eye and it looks like the money shot from the Zapruder film. What a mess.

I look at my friend and say, "Good thing we left the camera in the car!"

Later we are hanging the doe in a tree to finish dressing her out. I am standing on a rickety ladder holding the doe up by the front legs while my friend tightens the rope. The ladder slips and I start to fall. The bloddy messy head drops straight down onto my friends head as I am falling. He gets quite the kiss from the doe. Again, what a mess.

[Doug444]

Wes,
Thanks for the update. Yet, I still believe that if you can't FULLY identify your intended target, don't shoot. Of course, that philosophy cost me my one chance at an elk last year, but sometimes that's how life is. Overall, sounds like a lesson learned, and a mistake that won't be made twice.

[Atticus]

Re-reading this thread reminded me of something. A few years ago, I was deer hunting with a crossbow in the morning, and a nice sized old buck walked right up on me right after sunrise. I was sitting against a tree in an old abandoned apple orchard. He got within 20 feet of me and then caught my scent. He started backing away, but then stopped and looked over his shoulder in the other direction. I pulled up the crossbow and fired. The arrow hit him higher than I expected it to, and severed his spine right behind his shoulders. He dropped like a rock, and started trying to pull himself up with his front legs, but he couldn't move anything else. He was moaning and groaning and breathing real heavy. I wanted to do something to end it, but I was afraid that I would spook him even more, and I didn't want to get gored either. After a couple of minutes he calmed down, and I could hear his lungs sucking air through the wound. I knew then that he wouldn't live much longer. He lived about five more minutes, but it seemed like five hours. I sat there with my head between my knees and listened as his breathing slowed and then ended. I did some praying that morning, and I think about it everytime I pull a trigger.

[H&Hhunter]

I have never shot to "wound an animal" has anyone? I shoot to kill and i am gratified by a well done stalk followed by an artfull shot that results in a clean quick kill. To see a wounded animal brings me distress and I go to any length to put that animal down.

Have I ever screwed up? You bet it happens to all of us if we hunt long enough. But to intentionally wound an animal or torment one that is. Well folks there is something wrong in that persons mind.

here's a few things I've learned over the years.
if you don't like to follow blood trails do the following.

1. Get as close as possible before shooting. Very few muff ups happen at close range.

2. Never use to light or to lightly constructed a bullet on anything. Bullet failure is a prime cause of wounded game.

3. If you like high velocity that's fine but see the above rule. Faster bullets must be tougher bullets.

4. Shot placement means getting the bullet to the vitals from any angle see above on bullets and velocity. Neck shots and head shots don't leave blood trails and wound more often than not. The old adage about neck/head shots of "either I killed him or I missed" is complete B.S. there is actually only a very small area on the head/face or neck that will kill the animal quickly

5. A little common sense goes a long way. I am not squeamish in any way nor do I appreciate a hunter who is. The uuuu gross it's bleeding crowd actually kinda bothers me. Of course it's bleeding you just SHOT IT!!

As far as the original post you could have saved your self a bunch of drama by just reaching down and snaping the rabbits neck or putting a foot on it.

And I don't think your going to hell ;)

I hope that you aren't going to quit hunting because of a moment of youthfull exuberance (SP?)

I also would guess that many of these replys will be used on some animal rights forum anytime now. :rolleyes:

[H&Hhunter]

I also would guess that many of these replys will be used on some animal rights forum anytime now.

By this I didn't mean to belittle any post on this thread and I am including mine in this statement. It's just that this is the kind of ammo the other side loves to use.

[Art Eatman]

Yet, H&H, this thread in its entirety deals with conscience and ethics...

Art

[H&Hhunter]

Art,

True fact. And it is a healthy disscusion at that. And one which has made me think.

[Labinnac]

Rabbits do make a horrible noise when they're injured. I've hunted them a few times but they always went out quick and painless from my dad's model 12.

I worked as a landscaper in college and the guy I worked for hit one with a line trimmer while trimming around some bushes. Lopped his ears right off and scalped his back. That thing squealed and flopped around. Being on the job we didn't have anything to finish it off with quickly except for a shovel. That did it in with one swipe.

The last deer I ever killed went down wounded. It took me forever to crawl over boulders and through mountain laurel to get to it. It died just as I got there. The sounds it made ended my deer hunting for good.

[Poodleshooter]

Regarding rabbit noise: Don't worry about it too much. They have one volume-screaming baby loud. I used to have a pet rabbit that made that noise whenever I had to extract him from under bushes when we had let him out of his cage. He'd scream like a coyote was grabbing him despite the fact that he had gone through it several times before. He wasn't being hurt either (I was the one getting scratched).
I've heard one or two wild cottontails scream since (usually while foxes were snacking on them). I just remember those scratches and my pity melts away.

[cooch]

[cooch]

Golgo-13 and all.

Art suggested that people on this thread try reading Ortega y Gasset.

I agree

One of his statements was that the hunter does not hunt in order to kill,,,, but he kills in order to have hunted.

You are in error when you assume that varmint hunters enjoy death . They enjoy a different form of hunting which as more meaning to them than shooting at paper targets............... Get me or do I need to explain?

I know what it is to kill large numbers for no other reason than that they needed killing. Try putting several hundred sheep in a pen and slaughtering them all for no other reason than that they were valueless and cost too much to feed.
Primary emotions are sadness at the waste and a little ordinary nausea. Please don't give me any rubbish about "enjoying" death .

Yet I intensely enjoy hunting and varminting.

I'll maintain that much of the morbid oversensitivity that we see these days - and that threatens our hunting - follows from our society's lack of connection with the real world.
Surely it's some form of arrogance to assume that somehow everything can be made perfect, even our food-gathering activities. What's needed is a sense of realism and responsibility that accepts that our very existence involves the suffering and death of thousands of living creatures.

I wonder what you'd say to a hunter-gatherer who frequently has the options only of taking a risky shot, or using snares that are potentially sublethal,,,, or watching his family go hungry.??
I wonder what you'd say to someone engaged in rabbit control during during the plagues we had here in the 50's. Rabbits were allowed no more consideration than insects. Dug, suffocated and crushed as their warrens were ripped with machinery, dogged, poisoned, gassed, clubbed , shot with the cheapest ammunition available. The only alternatives were that the rabbits starved through overpopulation (along with livestock) or death through disease. There were no easy or painless options .

Yes death can be messy (outside of Disneyland)
Yes it can be painful.

But no, I see no reason why I should not enjoy some parts of a process that involve death just because it isn't scripted for TV with the messy bits edited out. Nor will I back off because hunting isn't a perfect process which may involve me taking moral responsibility for a muffed shot or any one of the intangibles that are involved in a less-than-perfect result.

In deep dudgeon (almost ;-] ).............. Peter

[Balog]

When I was growing up, the only "hunting" I did was shooting rabbits and gophers to keep the little buggers from eating my family's garden. Some of the shots I took were at really close range. I'm talking less than five feet. Ever seen what an oz of #8's does to a gopher at that distance? Body in two parts, a couple feet away from each other with some of the guts laying on the ground in-between.
You get used to it. I've never lost any sleep over those images, or about the fact that I couldn't eat the the filthy little vermin. I just whacked 'em, chucked the carcass over the fenceline, and enjoyed my homegrown carrots.

[Stand_Watie]

Not exactly" hunting"...

I was killing a duck (domesticated) with a .20 guage and instead of a clean shot that neatly blew it's head right off, blew just the bill off. It looked exactly like a daffy duck cartoon where he get's his bill blown off except it wasn't at all funny.

[Mossy Bloke]

about this on TFL a while back but...

A few years back I was hunting over a fresh cut corn field. I was hunting with an 8mm Mauser. It's an old turkish military rifle I had the bolt turned down on and drilled and tapped for a scope. Made it into my long range hunting rifle and it's dead on at 200 yards, but you've got to have something to rest it on since it weighs something like 9 and half pounds.

I'm hunting from a ditch when a doe walks out maybe 160 yards away or so. I rest, breathe easy and take the shot. I watched her turn a couple of times and start running back into the woods with something really big hanging down under her belly.

As I start to track her I'm finding blood and stomach matter everywhere. To make it worse, she was walking through some unbelievable thorn bushes. I finally found her maybe 150 yards in the woods laying there looking at me, breathing heavily. I had hit her too low and back and it had opened up her skin to let everything out.

Because of the thick brush I couldn't take my rifle in with me (remember, it's an 8mm and almost 6 feet long) so I had to finish her off with my knife.

I've never felt so horrible in my life. It did two things: gave me a greater appreciation for how little you can be off in the scope but how far you can be off on target when you're shooting at long ranges, and it gave me a renewed interest in practicing at long ranges.

[MeekandMild]

When my father was alive he liked to fry up an occasional squirrel or stew them with dumplings. Even though I didn't like eating them he would send me out hunting, to bring back one or two for his supper. The last one I ever shot was when I was 17 and it wasn't a clean hit. I had to chase it down and shoot it again with my 20 gauge.

I quit squirrel hunting then and haven't missed it. I suppose I would again if it was a matter of subsistance, but to tell the truth I kind of like watching them play in the trees. Same with rabbits. A good electric fence keeps them out of the garden so I have no quarrel with them.

The only things I ever hunt now are deer and predators, the former to eat and the latter (especially feral cats) to keep them in control so birds, mice and rabbits won't have such a hard time reproducing.

I think mankind has to understand his place in the universe is both a carnivore and a steward of life. We were created to foster order and not to increase disorder.:)

[Surely]

Out hunting this season a buddy of mine was using his dads 7mm-08 which he doesnt normally hunt with. Hes used to hunting with his 220 swift or 270, both of which have a much flatter trajectory than the 7mm. Anyway he takes a shot at a spike buck to fill his doe tag at about 200 yards and takes both its front legs out instead. Bullet hit right through both knees, completely severing one leg and the other was barely hanging on. Deer was in an open field so it wasnt getting away but it sure looked crazy trying to run with no front legs. He finished it off about 30 seconds later with a well placed lung shot.

One thing to remember and anyone who has ever actually been shot will confirm this, The animal is in shock for the first several minutes after being shot and not really feeling any pain, as horrible as it might look you dont have to worry about the animal suffering on some of these nasty first shots like described above. Only thing I really feel bad about is if an animal gets away injured, then it could linger for hours or even days. :(

[MeekandMild]

An afterthought: I see a lot more evidence of animal suffering on the side of highways than I ever have seen hunting. Critters from deer down to mice get wounded and left to die by the thousands every day. I thought about that a couple of days ago when I ran over what was left of a deer on the road.

[nico]

MeekandMild, that's a very good point. I was watching some show on TLC or the Discovery Channel yesterday called "dirty jobs." They were going around with one of the crews that cleans up dead roadkill. I thought it was kinda weird how callous the host was (making jokes about one deer that had been disemboweled and had it's front leg broken in half). It kinda made me wonder if people watching this show would turn around and say how awful hunting is.

On topic: I don't have any stories since I've only been hunting once, and I wasn't even carrying a gun, but I can tell a short one about my dad. In ~1982 my dad was deer hunting on public land on the first day of deer season. He had barely gotten to the spot he was going to hunt when he heard an ambulance coming through a field. A young teenager had been shot out of a TREESTAND by someone in his own party. After that, my dad packed up his stuff and left and he didn't hunt again until this past fall when we went with a co-worker of his who hunts on private property and knows the few other people who hunt on the land.

[Iain]

I replied to this a while back but thought I'd add something else.

Some of the stories in this thread are a little gross, but they are things that happen despite best intentions. All of you guys are alright by me, you show far more respect for and understanding of nature than many people who would be horrified by these stories yet without the faintest clue as to how the meat on their plate got there.

[Art Eatman]

For sure, St. Johns, for sure.

If you think about all the stories in this thread, though, you see a lot of object lessons where folks learned what not to do in the future. One hopes that others can learn by reading, and not have to learn from making the same mistake themselves.

Which is part of why THR is here.

:), Art

[Chuck Dye]

It was a Sunday night in the mid-1960’s, the end of opening weekend. My best friend and I had spent the weekend in the Los Padres National Forest north of Los Angeles on our first deer hunt by ourselves, without the usual mob of parents, uncles, cousins, siblings, friends, and friends of friends. Ah, to actually make decisions, not merely abide by them! It was glorious, even if we were skunked.

We hunted right up to the sunset plus thirty minute limit before breaking camp, so it was late and we were tired when we finally hit the road. The first order of business was to boost caffeine and blood sugar, so we stopped at the first roadhouse we came to for pie and coffee.

The Gorman Café was packed when we arrived but turnover soon let us get seats at the counter. In one corner booth were six or seven hunters, very loud and working on very drunk, at least two hip flasks making frequent circuits around the table, "sweetening" the coffee.

As my friend and I had our pie and coffee, another group of hunters entered. There was a very loud exchange of greetings as the new group and the group in the corner recognized each other. Then there was THE EXCHANGE: a new arrival shouted "Did you get anything?" at the gang in the corner. The answer came back loud and clear:


"Naw, we didn’t see anything. We got some sound shots, though!"

[P95Carry]

Wes .... I know the thread is old now .. but far as I am concerned you did OK ... screwed up a bit but .... you have the right approach. We are all fallible and learn thru our mistakes and experiences. Some may think compassion for our ''prey'' is whimpy . I disagree ... it shows caring, which can be applied thru all of life itself.

In fact pretty much the whole thread does show an overwhelming trend toward care and thoughtfulness .... actually rather refreshing and reassuring. ''Blood Lust'' is fortunately not to be seen per se.

I'll just add my small few cents re concerns over results ...... feeling as do most that clean kills are essential and the primary aim.

Probably 8 years ago now ... a farmer friend was besieged by an outa control rabbit population .. this was in UK BTW. It was not that they were eating his crops .. he was a dairy farmer ... no, they were burrowing into his hedgerows (a very ''British'' feature) .... to such an extent that these were in danger of being collapsed and ruined. Local fox population seemed way inadequate to effect sufficient control with the burgeoning numbers on hand.

I took on the task of control ... and over just one summer at weekends, took 134 rabbits using my .22lr Mauser Oberdorfe ... almost all shots around 50 yards ..... long range shots I did not attempt. As a result it was usual to get a ''one shot stop'' .... std velocity HP's did well.

Initially we all enjoyed pot pie ... and dogs did well too .... but over time everyone got tired of that diet, dogs included - so the later part of the season they were left for easy fox snacks.

The main point I wanted to make however ..... in this long-winded approach .. was that at one stage I was out of my usual ammo ... and just had std stuff with solid bullets. This did NOT do well ... even with good shot placement, there was too little shock ... inadequate disruption . and I had one or two at least make it to the burrow ... where i knew they would die slowly. That troubled me greatly. Death/killing cleanly is one thing ... suffering quite another.

I very quickly resumed normal ammo ... even drilling out some solids until I got fresh supply of HP's. Whether we shoot for food, food and control or even just control .... the same rules apply IMO ... rapid put-down ... or don't take the shot .... and choose the ammo that WILL do the job.

[Balog]

I divide the motive for killing animals into "need" and "want."

If you need to kill something (protecting crops, subsistence hunting, putting down rabid animals etc) then the primary consideration is effectiveness. If it's more effective to poison the rats it's too bad if they die a slow painful death.

If, however, you merely want to hunt (trophies, like the taste of wild game but don't need it etc) then you are obligated to make the kill as clean as possible. You need to show your opponent proper respect.