[Jordan85]

Ok, I know harshest recoil and .22lr prob don't belong in the same sentence must be considered w/ a grain of salt, but I am looking to buy a .22 to get some cheap trigger time in and need some advice. My main problem shooting is taking my eyes off of the front sight and flinching when I move up in calibers (and by up in calibers, I mean anything above a .22). I can keep the sights perfect when dryfiring at home, but w/ live rounds I begin to pull my shots from flinching. However, the .22 does not induce flinching in me, so I am able to hollow out a target w/ it when I shoot w/ it. I want a .22 for cheap plinking anyways, but this makes me wonder about its usefulness as a training device for me.

I am not concerned w/ a 'target gun' for competition, more just looking for some cheap training rounds. . So I would like the .22 I buy to have as much recoil as possible for me to train against. In a perfect world, I would get something that shot rounds that are cheap like the .22, and kick like a .45 at the same time. I know that this is not possible, but you see what I am getting at. Basically, I want as much recoil for as cheap as possible.

I know that just good mechanics and fundamentals when shooting the .22 should transfer over to the higher calibers once they are committed to muscle memory (hopefully). But I figure the more closely my training my mimics the 'big guns' the better.

I assume that the key determinants of the recoil are the same as most other guns, weight and length, so I have been looking at the little pocket berettas and 4" rugers w/ synthetic grips (less weight), thinking they might kick more than a full size ruger, buck mark, etc.

The main requirements are:
Under $250
and
As much recoil as possible
Somewhat reliable

Things that would be nice:
A revolver (i just think a .22 revolver would be cool)
If a pistol, something that has a thumb mag release / drop free mag (to be able to practice reloads)

So,are there there any guns like this?

[jlbraun]

I think you just need to take that 9mm or .45 and concentrate on sloooooow trigger presses.

A "high-recoiling" .22 isn't going to solve your problem.

[jfh]

What jlbraun said--and buy some snap caps and dry fire--a lot.

Jim H.

[Fumbler]

Taurus Model 94.
It's probably one of the lightest and would recoil more.

As far as semiautos, the Ruger 22/45 MKII or MKIII with tapered barrel will probably be the lightest/have the most recoil.

Both should be under or right at $250.

I think 22s are great for learning to shoot well.
Having made some 22 suggestions, I'll also add in my pitch for centerfire guns.
You should get a 38 special/357mag and load it with cowboy loads.
They are very easy recoiling.

Like jlbraun said, go slooow.
Concentrate on the front sight.
Shoot a couple rounds, then put it down for a minute before shooting again.

[PointOneSeven]

The little pocket guns (beretta bobcat/ or taurus clone) have decent kick for a .22, but they aren't for target work, that's for sure. Also the naa-mini revolvers will kick a bit.

None of them offer a realistic hold compared to 9mm or larger guns, and most don't have similar mag release/safety/decockers/etc. Closest match might be the Sig Mosquito or Walther P22. They're also the two biggest turds in the bowl.

[Caimlas]

My experience with flinching is that the best way to solve it is to stop looking at the pistol, or change your shooting techniqe. When I'm looking at the pistol's front site, using a weaver stance, I'll notice the slide flying towards my face much more than I would if I were looking "through" the site at the target.

So, to combat that, I've tried two things:
1) Learn how to point shoot. For nearly all non-hunting, non-target pistol shooting, aimed shots will not only be unlikely to occur due to your inclination to focus on the target, but it seems like a good skll to pick up anyay (you migh not have ideal lighting, etc.)
2) Shoot pistol one-handed, in the "old military style". The focal range of the pistol is a little longer from your face, and, I think due to the angle of your body, it seems to reduce recoil flinch.

[mgregg85]

probably the smallest .22lr revolvers NAA sells.

[Funderb]

Get snap caps for the pistol you want to shoot well,
and spend at least 3 trips to the range that you would have done, snapping away at a target you draw on your wall.
Concentrate on smooth operation and consistent force.
You will be surprised when you do go back out to the range.

When my grandfather was in the marines and my father the navy, both of them said they spent the first lot of range trips with no ammo in their firearms, just hours of click click click click.
while the sarge told them what they did wrong.

[Jordan85]

I think you just need to take that 9mm or .45 and concentrate on sloooooow trigger presses.

I do that, and it does help. But I also want a cheap gun to shoot that I can go and put a couple hundred rounds through and not put a couple holes in my wallet in the process. It would just be nice if it would also be useful for training/live fire practice to reduce my flinching. And I already reload my .40 and .45, so I am not going to be saving much more money on my ammo, even if I did go w/ a .9mm

Also, how much more $$$ is .22mag ammo compared to .22lr? Does this round produce more recoil than the .22lr?

[Brian Williams]

First use a ball and dummy drill to work on flinch.
Second, get a conversion kit for your full size handgun.

If you do not have anyone to fill your mags with dummies, get about 10 of them and fill them with a mixture of your regular ammo and some snapcaps. Mixed the mags in a bag and shoot them up at random that way you will not know which has what order of snap caps in them.

[Jordan85]

First use a ball and dummy drill to work on flinch

Doin' that too fellas. I appreciate all the suggestions, but....

Here's a short list of things I'm already doing to work on my flinching:
Ball and dummy drills
Double up on earing protection
Slooooow trigger pull concentrating on front front site
Let my self 'be surprised'
Not blinking
Holding follow through

and it is helping, but I am beginning to realize that no matter what way I slice it (reloading my own ammo, .9mm, bulk ammo, etc.) there is no cheap (using cheap as a relative term) way to shoot 500+rounds centerfire a week for me as a college-student , and therefore I need a .22 just to get the trigger time I desire. I was just hoping to get more recoil out of the .22 to more closely mimic the recoil of the larger calibers when I am getting my cheap trigger time in.

[Quack]

what guns are you currently shooting?
do you have anyone that has some shooting experience to help you?

i do not see a .22 help you from not flinching when you go to bigger calibers, since you already know that you don't flich when you shoot them now.

+500rds/week seems like alot of shooting and still having a flinching problem. practice doesn't always mean a high round count.

[NGIB]

Recoil and .22 are just not going to happen. I usually shoot my .22s much more than the others simply due to ammo prices. Any trigger time is time well spent. Get a good .22 and shoot the heck out of it...

[plexreticle]

If you're trying to cure a flinch there are better ways than your current plan.

[Jordan85]

+500rds/week seems like alot of shooting and still having a flinching problem. practice doesn't always mean a high round count.

Currently I am only shooting around 200 rounds per week due to the economics of it....

[Quack]

when you say "flinching" what are you actually doing?

[Jordan85]

when you say "flinching" what are you actually doing?

Anticipating the recoil and dipping the barrel before the shot breaks. I notice it when I use snap caps as well as when I have a FTF

[RyanM]

You know, despite what everyone else says, I've found that at least in my case, desensitization (i.e., shooting stuff with recoil on a regular basis) is a good way of overcoming a flinch. Ammo prices being what they are, I definitely know where the OP is coming from.

Anyway, if you can track down an old 1911 .22 conversion, with a floating chamber, that might be exactly what you want. Some of the expanding gas pushes the chamber away from the barrel, pushing the slide back quite hard. IIRC, those old conversions used steel slides, and the same recoil spring as the .45 top end. The recoil was basically identical to .45 ACP, thanks to the floating chamber.

[Jordan85]

Anyway, if you can track down an old 1911 .22 conversion, with a floating chamber, that might be exactly what you want. Some of the expanding gas pushes the chamber away from the barrel, pushing the slide back quite hard. IIRC, those old conversions used steel slides, and the same recoil spring as the .45 top end. The recoil was basically identical to .45 ACP, thanks to the floating chamber.

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANT! Any ideas where to start looking for one, or even what i should search for in terms of search words?? Will '1911 .45acp to .22 conversion kit' bring up what I'm looking for?

But that is perfect. .45 recoil at .22 prices. Exactly what I wanted. Is the recoil really that heavy?

Can this be harmful to my gun?

[RyanM]

I really have no idea. All I know is those conversion units are old, and may be rare, collectible, and/or expensive. The floating chamber conversions fell out of vogue several decades ago. New manufacture .22 conversions use a lightweight aluminum slide and a regular chamber, so they kick like any other .22. Here's a very old writeup on the 1927 Sistema Colt, as well as an original Colt floating chamber .22 conversion. http://www.cruffler.com/review-june-00.html

"The conversion kit's recoil was unlike any .22LR we'd ever fired. Not that it was hard or unpleasant; the issue was that there *WAS* recoil in the first place. Indeed, the pistol would jump as if one were firing a .45! While this didn't detract from the gun's accuracy, it made for a unique experience. We believe that this makes the conversion kit an excellent training tool for those who wish to practice a great deal without the expense of .45 ACP ammunition."

Back then the conversion was $500. But the Sistema was $350. I think Sistemas go for like $900 nowadays. Don't know what's happened to the conversion price. That should give you an idea of what to look for, though. I'm sure one of the resident 1911 gurus, like Old Fuff and 1911 Tuner, could tell you more.

Edit: Found some info on http://www.coltautos.com/

Can't link directly to pages there, so use the menu to select ".22-.45 Service Model Conversion Unit."

[icebones]

try to catch yourself flintching, have a buddy randomly load in both live ammo and snap caps at the range, you dont know if your going to get a bang or a click, and this will greatly expose how bad your flinch is.
aside from that, most of what we percieve as "recoil" when shooting a handgun is actually from the muzzle blast, unless your shooting something big, like a .44 magnum, recoil isnt that bad, try some lighter and lower velocity loads and wear both ear plugs and ear muffs, they will help to drown out the "concussion" effect from a .45 handgun's short barrel.

i know a 1911 has some solid recoil, and 1911's are some of the heaviest recoiling .45 handgun out there but it isnt that bad.
but then again your talking to someone who shoots 12 guage 3.5'' magnums for fun...

lord knows my glock 30 is a short barrel .45, and firing that thing in a indoor range is impressive even with ear plugs in. massive muzzle flash and the concussion wave feels like it blows back your hair!

but there is one thing to remember, its not how MUCH you practice, its HOW you practice...

[The Lone Haranguer]

A Colt "ACE" conversion kit will be scarce and expensive, a complete gun even more so. I like the idea of a conversion kit for an existing pistol a lot better.

[offshorebear]

For what its worth, my only .22 handgun is a Heritage Manufacturing 22/22mag convertable. Neither rounds have any kick compared to a "real" handgun.

[WinchesterAA]

The violence of recoil is something to behold, but as long as you keep your hands tight it'll feel just fine. Don't think about pulling the trigger.

[OMGWTFBBQ]

Yeah, those Colt conversion kits ain't cheap. Here's (http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=93776694) one on gun broker going for $570(7 bids) with over 4 days left. I think your best bet is to get use a "normal" gun with a conversion kit for getting your trigger time in to override your flinching with practice and familiarity with the weapon.

[chris in va]

Probably a derringer.

[Brian Williams]

A couple of exercises to try.
first, stand right at the shoulder of a friend and sight down their arm as they sight(you are not getting the sight picture, they are making sure the gun is on target and aimed in a safe direction) and with both eyes open watch the front sight as they shoot. This takes the flinch/recoil out of your eye picture and while they shoot, concentrate on watching just the front sight all the way through to the return of the sight picture. This gets your eye adjusted to the movement of the gun through the process of the gun recoiling and enables you to learn/teach your eyes to follow through better.

Second, move up close to the back stop/berm, with no target in front of you, MAKE SURE OF WHERE YOUR ROUND WILL HIT and with both eyes open bring the gun up to eye level and only focusing on the front sight, work on pulling through the shot and watching the front sight all the way through the recoil of the gun. When working on stopping Horrendously terrible flinch many people fail to forget about working on just the flinch and try to increase their accuracy or rate of fire at the same time. Get rid of the flinch and then go back to rebuilding the basics of perfect sight alignment, target aquisition, and speed.

[Conqueror]

I find shooters lose their flinch better if they DON'T have a heavy-recoiling practice gun. Get a regular .22 pistol. You're probably flinching because of the recoil and the sound - if you buy a .22 kit that mimics those, you're not going to lose the flinch any faster.

[jgo296]

i nhave a naa 22lr minirevolver and it doesnt really kick

[TimboKhan]

I don't want to be rude, but the basic flaw in your plan to beat the flinch is that you want to replace recoil with recoil. Thats like saying that you want to stop driving Ford trucks by downgrading your F150 to a Ranger.

The idea to get a .22 is a good one, but I wouldn't worry yourself about the recoil. The idea is simply to get used to the gun going "bang" without you flinching. There are several ways to do that, most of which have been mentioned here already, with Brian Williams making a great point: Work on your flinch first, not your flinch plus accuracy plus greater speed plus whatever else. When I was learning to shoot trap, in order to keep myself from flinching I simply shot my shotgun in a safe direction with my eyes held wide open (googly eye style) and I flat out forced myself to keep them open as I shot. Eventually, I was able to lose all flinching with a shotgun. I don't think that works quite as well with a handgun, although I suppose it's worth a try.

[Fumbler]

Here's a good place to read about conversions for 1911s.
http://forum.m1911.org/forumdisplay.php?f=47


You know...I did start shooting my 45ACP real well after getting my 480Ruger...

[woad_yurt]

Here's a pic of the hardest recoiling .22LR pistol I own (or ever shot) and they're cheap, too. It's a very light, very tiny gun. Fill it with 40 grainers and go to it. I bought one for $85.00 and another mint example for $150-something, both found online. Just make sure that it's in decent shape & guaranteed functioning properly before you buy it. They were very cheap back in the day and most were just never cleaned or maintained. PS: They're really good for pocket carry.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/977002078/Guns/Pistols/Iver-Johnson-Pistols/US_REVOLVER_22LR.htm

[owlhoot]

I have a Colt 1911 .22 Conversion unit. New it sold for around $150 in 1972. It works just fine on any conventional 1911 frame by any maker. It is almost as accurate as a quality target pistol. And it gives a level of recoil about like a .38 wad cutter load, not nearly as great as a standard .45 load. But it is a great little unit, completely trouble free, and evidently they will last forever.

But, as others have pointed out, that is not the solution for your problem. And you are not alone. Most handgun shooters have a little tendency to flinch and they have to fight it constantly. But they are lucky because the bullet usually has left the barrel by the time they give in to their flinch and the flinch is thus hidden by the recoil of the weapon. But let them hit a dud round and you will see the flinch.

Brian Williams is giving you some good advice, but there is something that needs to be added. The problem lies between your ears. It is NOT a stimulus/response reaction. As wonderful as the brain is, it can only consciously think of one thing at a time. In order to anticipate recoil, some part of your brain has to be thinking about recoil. The solution is simple. You should be devoting all of your concentration to the front sight alignment. It takes a lot of work to learn to really concentrate. There are plenty of competent shooters who have not yet learned to truly concentrate. They will become much better when it finally dawns on them that for these many years they have only thought that they were concentrating.

Now obviously, trigger control is just as important, but you should not need to think about trigger control. You sure as hell can't think about trigger control and sight alignment at the same time. And don't worry about sight picture. If you do, you will try to ambush your target. Just keep good sight alignment until the shot breaks. Everything else will take care of itself, including the flinch.

Now when it comes to combat shooting, your concentration priorities will need to be modified. But before you try to master combat shooting, you should first master the fundamentals. And that means getting rid of the flinch.

If you shoot with a friend, have him stand immediately behind you and repeat to you "concentrate on the front sight" over and over as you aim and fire. If you shoot alone, then you give yourself the same instruction repeatedly. You should be able to beat your flinch in an afternoon.

Now one last important point. Dry firing is a two edged sword. Yes, if done properly, it is almost as good as time on the range. But, if you do not concentrate on the front sight with the same intensity as you would if you were actually firing, then you are teaching yourself NOT TO CONCENTRATE. So when you do go to the range, the old brain feels quite at liberty to think about recoil, or a thousand other things. So I suggest you dry fire for no more than ten minutes at a stretch and teach yourself to focus total, intense concentration on each shot. Once you have mastered this, you need never check your target to see where you hit. You will know because you will know exactly where the sights were when the shot broke.

[Beagle-zebub]

Ah yes, the Colt Service Ace, brain-child of David Marshall ("Carbine") Williams. Someone ought to bring that one back, what with the price of ammo now and all.

He made some conversion units for the Browning 1919 around the time of WWII, but I don't know whether any production models were ever ordered. (Seems like the kind of thing I'd have heard about if they had.)

[loop]

How about you practice with something that kicks like a mule then go to your regular fare?

Try a short-barreled 12ga with a pistol grip then shoot a .45 acp and then a .38 Special...

Flinching is a mental error. Exercise your wrist until it can withstand the shock and practice dry firing with a dime on top of your slide and work until it doesn't even wobble.

The flinch is in your head. Overcoming it requires one thing - focus.