[ceetee]

A Palm Beach County firefighter was killed Monday when a gunman entered a Wendy's restaurant during lunch hour and started firing.

He and the shooter are dead. Four others are injured.

The 42-year-old firefighter, who is not being named, had just eaten lunch at the restaurant with his wife, a Palm Springs police officer, and child. He had returned inside, maybe to retrieve a toy, said Paul Miller, a spokesman for the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office. The gunman shot him at point blank range near the restaurant's counter.

Miller said the gunman's motive is unknown and it appears to be a random act of violence.


Maybe it's just me, but it seems like there are more and more of these stories (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-303wendys,0,161608.story) every day. I mean this thread to not really be about the tactics of dealing with such an event, because I think each such event is really an animal unto it's own, and what tactic might work for one, wouldn't work for the next. Instead, I want to ask about dealing with the repercussions that come fron these events. When those of your friends that know you're a "gunny" ask whether a ban would've stopped this attack, how do you respond? (I already know what I say - that one armed citizen could've stopped the attacker...)

Do you discuss things like this with your kids? Your friends? Your family? Do you discuss ways to be prepared if something like this should happen near them? I know I do... but I'm always open to new ideas.

[El Tejon]

1. A ban is already in place. Murder is banned in Florida. Empty commands to the future are just that--empty.

2. If you wish to survive, stop stumbling around in White. Stay alert. When you go into a public place, your first question is "O.K., how do we get out?"

3. Training and only training will save you, not the government.

[Nitrogen]

3. Training and only training will save you, not the government.

This is something a lot of people overlook. Get all the guns, but no training.

Even a little bit of training and practice stays with you for a long time.

I just got back into a specific job type after a 7 year abscence. It's amazing how fast it all comes back. You work/fight like you train.

[El Tejon]

Nitro, that's because if you go to school, you have to admit your ignorance.

Doesn't everyone at the gun shoppe know everything already?:D

[Eric F]

situation awareness and as stated training.

[Cosmoline]

If something seems wrong, it is wrong.

[yokel]

When those of your friends that know you're a "gunny" ask whether a ban would've stopped this attack, how do you respond?

Burma is a good example of 'gun control', i.e. a state of affairs where firearms are a legal monopoly of the government forces. One side has good intentions and the other side has loaded rifles.

[Wolfgang2000]

I use to teach Observation and Perception to my Dept's academy.

I'll touch on 2 points.

No matter how "good" you are you can't you can't "see everything.

No matter how well trained and equipped, if you don't have the "Spiritual Armor" (Eph. 6: 13-18) you are not fully equipped.

In case you don't know what I'm talking about, it's easy. You can't get out of this world alive. Everybody's time will come, usually, "in the twinkling of an eye". Our training and equipment can help and maybe save you sometimes. But when YOUR time is here, there will nothing you or your gear, or your spidey senses will be able to do about it.

Whether you believe in a "after life" or not, something is coming. Ready or not!

[bogie]

There are a LOT of people out there who just look at things, and don't really see them. Three bum-looking guys walk into a quickie mart, and they're milling around, I'm assuming a coupla things... They're maybe looking to shoplift, they're maybe going to rob the place, or they're just agitated and trying to figure out how to get the most cheap beer for their pocket change...

My girlfriend sees three guys in the store.

[jwr_747]

as Eric F stated "situation awareness" is the key words.it borders on paranoia but it must be that way.it means every thing you look at is a potential "problem". I don't know if you can train to cover every situation,but you can be aware that there may be a situation that needs a response. jwr

[Harvster]

Someone pulls a gun at point blank range intent on killing you, you had better have training and it better be honed to the point where it is instinctual. In that situation you would likely have less than a second to react. No time to think "hey, that's a gun. What should I do now?"

[stubob2517]

Situational Awareness. Instinct. Muscle Memory.

[rainbowbob]

I will attempt to give a mostly speculative answer regarding what I might do in a real-world "random act of violence" scenario. I will use an event that recently occurred at the nearby mall in front of the shop where I go for eye-glass repairs as an example.

An altercation, later reported to have involved rival young mall thugs, escalated into a non-fatal shooting incident. Young men who had reportedly been arguing at the food court met up again in the parking lot and began beefing. It ended with one of them being seriously wounded by a firearm.

One witness inside the eye-glass shop heard three loud pops and the sound of breaking glass which turned out to be a round entering the shop through a window.

Another witness in the parking lot saw and heard them arguing, heard gunfire, and took cover behind a car. She reported seeing other young men running toward the fight. It was later speculated that these individuals were associated with those involved in the incident.

So...Without using too much imagination, I think I can reasonably project myself into the scene in the place of these witnesses as an exercise in personal threat management. It is much easier to speculate on my responses from a computer desk than it would be to make those split-second decisions in a real event.

Here is what I came up with:

First witness’s point of view:
I’m in the shop (where I have been many times) when I hear loud pops and breaking glass.
• My first response is to hit the floor and take cover, while loudly suggesting others do likewise.
• Second, I would draw my weapon and my cell phone and call 911.
• Third, without unduly exposing myself to fire, I would attempt to see what was happening in the immediate vicinity in order to assess the danger.
• Fourth, I would remain behind cover with my eyes on the door and my weapon ready. This threat response evolution would (hopefully) succeed in securing my safety, and that of the other innocent people in my immediate vicinity (i.e., inside the shop).

I have no way of knowing who is involved, who is armed, or who is at fault. I do not have enough facts to do any more than I have outlined.

Second witness’s point of view:
I’m walking to my car (from the eye-glasses shop, as I have done many times) when I hear angry shouting and belligerent exchanges, followed by several loud pops.
• My first response is to hit the ground and take cover, while loudly suggesting others do likewise.
• Second, I would draw my weapon and my cell phone and call 911.
• Third, without unduly exposing myself to fire, I would attempt to see what was happening in the immediate vicinity in order to assess the danger.
• Fourth, I would remain behind cover with my eyes on the fight scene and my weapon ready. This threat response evolution would (hopefully) succeed in securing my safety, and that of the other innocent people in my immediate vicinity (i.e., in the parking lot).

I have no way of knowing who is involved, who is armed, or who is at fault. I do not have enough facts to do any more than I have outlined.

I’m beginning to recognize a response behavior pattern here. Thinking out reasonable responses in advance and training regularly with the firearm I carry are things I can do to prepare myself for dealing with "random acts of violence".

[ceetee]

But getting back to my original questions... how do you discuss these things with your kids? Your family and friends? My wife, my daughter, and I had an hour-long discussion at the dinner table over this episode. It seems that the firefighter that was killed never saw it coming - he was shot in the back. Situational awareness is all well and good. We pretty much came to the conclusion that if your time is up, it's up. Just like the worker that had a bullet graze his pant leg, and his work boot, but never touched him. It's pretty obvious that his time was NOT up.

But... How have you prepared yourself and/or your family for something like this? Do you discuss it at length? Do you have contingency plans - like... "I feint right, while you dodge left, and junior sneaks out under the table... we all rendezvous back of the salad buffet..."? Okay, maybe that's a little tongue-in-cheek. Seriously, how deeply do you take the threat of something "random" happening, and how do you best prepare your family for it?

[jakemccoy]

ceetee wrote,
When those of your friends that know you're a "gunny" ask whether a ban would've stopped this attack, how do you respond?

Here ya go...

Not all situations can be countered with a firearm. If the criminal draws and fires on you in a blindside surprise, that's not a situation that can be countered with a firearm if you're incapacitated immediately. Yes, you may have situational awareness and training. A criminal can still blindside you.

Nevertheless, a criminal will likely pick an easier target than a place where people are known to carry CCWs. A criminal like in the original scenario wants either to off himself or to take off uninhibited. We know this by looking at real cases. The criminal takes a guess that there are no cops around to take out the criminal. He's probably right! In a gun free zone (complete gun ban), the criminal is safe to carry out his plan.

In the net sum of people with guns, it's better to have more good guys with guns. The bad guys will have their guns regardless of a gun ban.

Perhaps this is the most convincing argument: This video (at 2:32) shows violent criminals who admit that they’re most afraid of CCW holders; the criminals also admit that a gun ban will not stop them from carrying a gun…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVu1tV7kqcQ&feature=PlayList&p=602DBCB676195B87&index=1

See my collection of other videos too…

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=602DBCB676195B87

[Eric F]

there are no promises in life other than death...........the Firefighter in question was aparently the first one shot....In his back.....at a busy fast food establishment where folks are constantly walking in and out of the door.......and in uniform aparently......Who kills firefighters?........I am guilty of thinking this on my way to and from work some times. I likely would not have noticed this guy either for what ever reason it was this guys time. I am religous but not a fanatic about it either. There was little this guy could have done even had he seen the BG comming through the door it is aparent he was going to be the first target either way.

[jakemccoy]

fixed

[chris in va]

But when YOUR time is here

I used to believe in that, not any more. When a whole plane comes down and everyone on board is killed, they can't ALL have their time be up at once.

how do you discuss these things with your kids? Your family and friends?

I've tried this, everyone calls me paranoid. They uniformly agree I need to stop reading about this stuff. Then again I don't have an actual 'family' of my own, maybe that's why I don't have any credible voice.

[bogie]

A lot of times, you can see the guys "working themselves up" to doing violence. It just isn't natural to a lot of folks... They get twitchy. They look angry. They put out a vibe.

It's the ones who don't have to do that that you really have to watch out for. Because you get little or no warning...

A good cinematic comparison would be using some of the characters in A History of Violence. The two sociopaths in the beginning oozed a sort of weird vibe... Doing things that weren't normal, around the door of the diner, etc... Put you sort of on guard...

The protagonist, however, didn't have any of that... He just acted. Because he didn't need to think about it. He knew what he was going to do, so he just did it... Arguably, he was more dangerously violent than the two killers. Or the other thugs he eventually deals with.

[ZeSpectre]

as Eric F stated "situation awareness" is the key words.it borders on paranoia but it must be that way.

I wanted to touch on this. Folks, "Paranoia" is a specific feeling that someone is out to get you. This is a far different situation from general alertness and the knowledge that you must be alert to protect your own safety. Is it "paranoid" to look both ways every time before you cross the road?

Look I hate to admit it but I've been caught "flat footed" before as have others I've known.
"Caught Flatfooted" (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=254200)
"Ambushed in DC" (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=274291)

So sometimes you just get surprised. Even so it's far better to have thought out some sort of "game plan" ahead of time as it makes it far easier to "catch up" to a situation that is taking place. There's a reason I sit away from the door but close to the wall and facing the door in a restaurant if possible. Loonies that come in and open up tend to walk in the door, shoot forward, then start sweeping around. God forbid I should ever be in such a situation at least I might have SOME kind of warning.

[Skirmisher]

I met a woman friend in a store the other day who I had not seen in 20 years. We renewed our acquaintance and talked about my shootout with an armed robber in a convenience store chain both of us worked for. She expalined to me that her husband had problems with his hands and probably could not use his gun to defend them and she had never fired a gun before. She was certain that if there was ever a need to use her husband's gun, she would have no problem.

The problem with her thoughts and many others is that when you are in a life or death situation the adrenlin kicks in, the fight or flight response takes over and you react as you were trained. Not only do you have to know how to shoot your gun, you must be mentally prepared to defend your life with no hestitation. I encouraged her to go out and shoot with husband; join the local sportsman club and learn to shoot. I really hope she takes my advice.

[Wolfgang2000]

Chris in VA
I used to believe in that, not any more. When a whole plane comes down and everyone on board is killed, they can't ALL have their time be up at once.


Why not? Is there a rule somewhere? Seriously, why not?

[skidmark]

Eric F wrote: there are no promises in life other than death...........the Firefighter in question was aparently the first one shot....In his back.....at a busy fast food establishment where folks are constantly walking in and out of the door.......and in uniform aparently......Who kills firefighters?........I am guilty of thinking this on my way to and from work some times. I likely would not have noticed this guy either for what ever reason it was this guys time. I am religous but not a fanatic about it either. There was little this guy could have done even had he seen the BG comming through the door it is aparent he was going to be the first target either way.

If it is truely a random act of violence, there will probably be no warning signs for anybody's spidey sense to tingle at. It will just come out of nowhere and tag you.

That said, there are few truely random acts of violence. IMHO the problem is that the folks who see the warning signs (changes in behavior, stopping taking meds, wolfing, whatever) do not share that information with the rest of the world. I don't know, so I'm asking - did anybody see the shooter pull out his weapon? How long was it between seeing the weapon and the first shot being fired? Were there any other warning signals?

*edit to add: when Blake, who witnesses said was wearing a baseball cap and business suit and was visibly shaking, reportedly walked out of the bathroom and shot Vazquez, killing him.

http://www.wpbf.com/news/15474521/detail.html

seems to me he probably came into the Wendy's wearing a baseball cap and business suit, which is just a tad odd, even for Florida. Did anybody see him go into the bathroom? Did they see shaking then? Was he also sweating? Was he also talking - to himself? - to someboy that nobody else could see (and I do not mean a bluetooth cellphone!)? - to strangers in a strange, crazy-person sort of way?

Too many of these "random" acts involve someone deciding that it is necessary to take several (apparent) strangers with them in their suicide event. I wish I had a clue as to why that is, as opposed to quietly going to a vacant lot and offing yourself after pinning a suicide note and a check to the local government for the cleanup costs to your shirt. At least that way folks would have some idea of what made you decide you could no longer tolerate whatever it was that bugged you, and the taxpayers would not have to foot the bill.

I may not be my brother's keeper, but I am seeing more and more benefit to watching out for the other guy before it becomes "tactical awareness and response".

I suppopse that is because the alternative is to retreat inside my fortified castle, unless I venture out in my up-armored vehicle accompanied by my security detail. If that's going to be the case, I might as well re-join the Marines so I will be allowed to shoot back.

Getting back to the original question - how do you discuss this with your significant other/kids? My answer is to tell them to get their heads up and out of their personal fog, to take note (but not become obsessivly paranoid) of who and what is around them, and to communicate. When my kid was little and living at home we used to play people-watching, and discretely share our thoughts (OK - and wild imaginings) about the various folks around us. Kid would point out the hermit multi-millionaire old fart guy trying to keep everybody from seeing he had $3.00 when the burger&drink price was less than $2.00, or the wicked witch trying to masquerade as some little kid's mommy. When the kid got older we shared info on the different ways various folks were acting "hinky" - an old-fashioned term for making your spider senses tingle. Of course, that meant I had taught the kid what "hinky" meant and how to recognize when somebody was acting that way. We also discussed how to act/react when we saw various things people did - like my explaining in the xar why we left Mickey Dee's when we were next in line and are now headed to Burger King which the kid did not like. Or the kid suggesting we head for the other end of the mall when it got real crowded with kids where we were in front of the over-priced clothes store - even tho the kid had a birthday check's worth of cash to buy over-priced clothes.

As for the truely random act of violence? I guess the best advice I ever heard was to be sure to tell the folks you care about how you feel about them every day.

stay safe.

skidmark

[yhtomit]

From the news report quoted:

Miller said the gunman's motive is unknown and it appears to be a random act of violence.

Gee, thanks!

That's about as useful as the always-handy "only time will tell" line. Or perhaps a report from the Antarctic that "It appears snow fell at some time in the past."

Saying "it appears random" just means "we don't know if there were specific, articulable reasons." True enough -- just not useful. It may seem "random" to those of us left, but this act was the culmination of some (however fractured) chain of events on the part of the shooter.

timothy

[chieftain]

stuff Happens.

Be prepared. Have all the training and practice you need. If you are alert and the guy comes up behind you, you are dead. End of story.

In any firefight, luck matters. Doesn't matter how good, trained, tough, aware, or experienced you are. The bad guy giving up and dropping the gun can kill or hurt you and/or your loved ones.

The safest answer is to avoid the fire fight. That gives you the best odds, once in the fire fight, finish it as quick as you can. Max violence released on the bad guy. Even if you are better trained, armed and prepared, the Bad guy can still win. The longer a fire fight lasts, the greater the odds that you get hit. Finish it fast. Max violence on target, while at the same time you are moving off the mark as fast as you can.

Better you don't get hit, than you hit the bad guy. The purpose of the fight is to get out as unhurt as possible. If you are in the fire fight you have already lost. Keep that loss to a minimum. Finish it FAST. Better yet avoid the fight. And don't be in the area of any fire fight.

But as the new bumper sticker states: Stuff still happens.

Oh yea, don't ever get in any fight if you and yours don't want to be hurt too. Because folks get hurt even when they win. That is the norm, not the exception.

Go figure.

Fred

[WayneConrad]

No matter how much training you get, you can't do it all alone.

Get your spouses and friends involved, too.

Then keep spreading the word. To combat so-called "random acts of violence," we need more good citizens, not just a few people wound up tigher than a high tension wire.

[1911Tuner]

The first step to being prepared is being aware. We've been force-fed the reality of sudden, random acts of violence, so we can stop believing that it can't happen.

If you're working at your desk and a man steps into the room with a shotgun...you've lost that one. If you see him coming onto the property with the shotgun...you've probably won that one, assuming that you have the means at your disposal to stop him. If all you carried today is your briefcase and your umbrella...you've probably lost that fight unless you have an escape route that doesn't force you to cross his path. Then, you can listen to the screams of the others who were caught with their pants down...but at least you can hear it from a safe distance.

When in public...if possible, position yourself so that you can observe people as they use the entrance(s) and don't forget to use that vantage point every so often. If something seems wrong...it probably is.

Have a plan for your family if they're with you. A prearranged cue to drop to the floor without question and/or hesitation is important. If you wait until it's on you to tell them to get down, their first reaction will be to look around and ask: "Why? What's wrong?" Too late. They're in the kill zone.

Be alert. Be calmly aware. If a person's behavior gets your attention, don't take your eyes off him/her until you're satisfied that it's nothing to be alarmed over. Don't ignore your gut. You don't have to seem paranoid in order to watch people...but you do have to watch'em.

[another okie]

Nothing is a 100% guarantee of safety. Alertness and training can increase the odds in your favor, but taking those steps does require you to admit that the world is full of danger. Some folks don't want to admit that.

[1911Tuner]

taking those steps does require you to admit that the world is full of danger. Some folks don't want to admit that

And you, sir, just said a mouthful.

I read somewhere...don't recall who wrote it...

"A man should have to run for his life at least once, so that he can understand that eggs don't come from the supermarket...and protection doesn't come from policemen."

[bloodedsky]

Sometimes, I don't think you can prepare for random acts of violence.

Once upon a time, a few friends and I were spending an evening sitting peaceably in front of a restaurant that had closed for the night and that was owned by one of said friends.

A black Lincoln Navigator pulled into the parking lot and about four people seemed to explode from the SUV. They were indeed looking to rob us, but we managed to convince them that we had no affiliations with the restaurant and that, furthermore, we were broke.

Even if all three of us had been carrying (only one of us was), those four thugs would have shot us all dead, had my armed acquaintance drawn to fire. Sometimes, life is all about being a cell inside of a centrifuge. Situations like these make me believe in Fate.

As it is, I fervently respect eggs; and I understand that the police, though only a block away, were as useless to us in that situation as a toothbrush would have been. :P

I think protection comes from self-awareness combined with heavy doses of good luck and helpful spirits.

[Six O'clock Tactical]

I look everywhere. period. I constantly look behind and around me, cross the street often in high-crime areas, look for people with hoods up during springtime or glasses on without sun, hands in large pockets, etc.

The number one priority accoarding to the law is your own life, and thats it. No jury will convict you for protecting your family or other close-by victims, but what it comes down to is that if you sprint across the parking lot (in NY anyhow) to engage a ROV gunman, you have committed a crime because you were not at risk. So far as the other people, well... screw them. (says the law.) If they arent wise enough to defend themselves, the law essentially states that theyll just catch the guy and make him do some time behind bars, provide you with a comfy black bag for your second to last car ride, and everyone will be happy.