[takhtakaal]

A guy at the range had a JA-380 totally, and I mean totally, locked up in the slide with only forty rounds through it out of the box. I could just manage a press-check to make sure that it had nothing in the chamber, nothing more. Last I knew, they were talking about beating it open with a hunk of wood.

Maybe there is something to all this stuff against Saturday Night specials?

[Funderb]

I have a Bryco 380, and as much as I trash talk it,
it is phenomenally reliable, and accurate for having a 3" barrel.
.380 is a cheap round, and I like to have something I can just pour rounds out of for relaxations sake, and after about 250 rds, i have had one stovepipe.
For every 10 pos saturday nighters, there must be one good one, right?

[boots]

jimenez arms???

are they related to sanchez armory???

[HOME DEPOT GEORGE]

I believe jiminez arms is the name that jennings is using now.

[armoredman]

The new J. Same old garbage.

[Average Joe]

A What ?

[takhtakaal]

Here's a scary website: Taming the Jimenez J.A.-380 (http://concealed-carry.5u.com/)

[lee n. field]

ere's a scary website: Taming the Jimenez J.A.-380


Wow.

Quoth them:

The bolt-face on this handgun had become damaged by a few cartridges that had become jammed against it, before I worked the gun over. There was a damaged area in the side of the recess. The edge was smashed down, and this caused a small amount of metal to mushroom out onto the bolt-face.

A jammed cartridge damaged the bolt face?!?!:what::what: Did they make that thing out of congealed chocolate pudding?

Sounds like a gun to walk away from, fast.

[armoredman]

Now I know what happened to that old pudding I threw out.

[-v-]

Dear...god....Wow that is a piece of refuse. Granted a gun is better then no gun, but a gun where you can reshape the chamber with a pocket-knife because the metal is so soft is a hand-mounted IED waiting to happen. Not to mention the brittle cast-iron firing pin?!

[Gator]

Makes Hi-Points look pretty good, huh? :)

[DrLaw]

What is the point in getting a gun made of zinc or some other soft alloy that you can shape with a pocket knife? What is the point in producing this thing at all? It's like going to a McDonalds and cooking your own dinner, cheap and you still have to fix it. :confused::eek::uhoh::what:

I can't fathom why this gun is even being sold, but then, I did graduate High School. :neener:

The Doc is out now. :cool:

[romeo212000]

Jiminez and Jennings are crap. I dont really like Hi-Point at all but even they are a world away from those two.

[Cougfan2]

Just to make the point that this phenomena doesn't just happen on cheap guns I just got my replacement Dan Wesson CBOB back from their warranty dept. My first one was locked up so bad after only THREE rounds that the slide woudn't budge.

To their credit, the gunsmith at DW said he fixed my gun, but could never get the accuracy out of it he wanted to so he pulled two new pistols off the rack and put 5 magazines through each one, picked the most accurate one and sent it to my FFL. Just picked it up yesterday. Will try it out this weekend, but hopefully my problems are solved. Just goes to show that every company puts out a lemon once in a while. Some just do it more often than others.

[rdrancher]

Makes Hi-Points look pretty good, huh?

Now there's something you don't hear too often.

rd

[Jim K]

There is even a web site dedicated to those guns, calling us gun snobs.

http://bryco-jennings-jimenezarms.com

Actually, those guns make the High Points look very good. I have never owned a High Point, but have fired a couple extensively. They worked and were reasonably accurate, though awkward. IIRC, when Jennings went out of business, his shop manager, Jiminez, bought the company. Quality did not improve.

I don't like government regulation of guns, even under the guise of "consumer protection." I would rather let the market place decide on those guns, even though my opinion is that they are junk. The "low cost gun for the poor" argument has validity, but I think low cost need not mean trash.

Jim

[lee n. field]

http://www.bryco-jennings-jimenezarms.com/forum/

A-****-stonishing. A SNS fanboy forum.

(Don't get me wrong. "Inexpensive guns for the poor" does carry weight with me, being not too far over that mark myself.)

[Feud]

http://www.bryco-jennings-jimenezarms.com

Oh my...

Reading the "history" section is almost funny, were it (the history) not so mind numbingly inept. So the company gets closed down by a lawsuit settlement over what has been determined an unsafe design, and the genius who buys it decides to resume full production and sale without ANY changes to the model, only to be shut down again. Brilliant.

[Robert Hairless]

How could an anti-gun attornay who has an ax to grind be trusted to submitte an undoctored, unbias test results. Its sad to say the gun snobs eat this kind of ant-gun histeria up!

The above is from that site at http://www.bryco-jennings-jimenezarms.com/news_gallery.html

I wonder how big an ant gun might be and how the ant practices shooting it.

[Moonclip]

I so need to join that forum:) The irst handgun I bought with my own money was a Sundance Boa! POS!!! I do have 2x functional ravens though. Among other "SNS" type guns.

[Onmilo]

When "poor people", translation, folks in the welfare system, can affords to drive Cadillac Escalades, I am pretty sure they can afford a $250.00 S&W revolver.
That 'guns for the poor' argument doesn't hold any water in my book, these guns are intended for the ill informed, the gun ignorant, and those intent on doing all the wrong things.

These guns work well enough to do a drive by, enough said.

[customizedcreationz]

High points, my buddy like his first one so much he bought another. I thought I was going to buy their "compact" 9 once, but after I picked it up , I put it down. The guy behind the counter said, dont like it eh ? I said yeah, I am not fond of picking up an airsoft gun that is made to shoot really 9mm LOL. But my buddies works and only broke twice, they replaced the parts for free and mailed them for free to him. I guess thats not bad considering he only paid $150 for it. But I guess I ll stick with my Sigs, which never break no matter how much I shoot or abuse them. My life is just worth a little more then $150 I guess.

[lee n. field]

But my buddies works and only broke twice,

"only broke twice"

[BHPshooter]

Here's a scary website: Taming the Jimenez J.A.-380

Wow. Just think, now he has a personalized, one-of-a-kind polished turd that can be passed down from owner to trash can. How proud he must be.

There is even a web site dedicated to those guns, calling us gun snobs.

It looks like we haven't gone unnoticed there, either. http://www.bryco-jennings-jimenezarms.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1240

I don't think there's necessarily any correlation between a person's economic status and the guns a person chooses to buy. I'm a prime example. A person who is strapped for cash can still end up with a high quality firearm. It took me 3 years to save enough for my first pistol, a BHP. It wasn't even remotely cheap, but I have a fine firearm that will hold up to IDPA and other rigorous use, and still be passed down for my grandchildren to use someday... that is, if I end up with grandchildren. :o

Wes

[MASTEROFMALICE]

If you can save up $100 for one of these, you can save up $200 for a used Smith or $300 for a new Taurus. If it takes longer, it takes longer.

I've said it before. The Jennings is built for one thing. It's meant to fire one magazine then be thrown down a storm drain.

[junyo]

When "poor people", translation, folks in the welfare system, can affords to drive Cadillac Escalades, I am pretty sure they can afford a $250.00 S&W revolver.
That 'guns for the poor' argument doesn't hold any water in my book, these guns are intended for the ill informed, the gun ignorant, and those intent on doing all the wrong things.
My first job out of my parents house, not really that long ago, $250 was two week's pay. And I was driving a POS Civic. I lived it up and got the aluminium bat instead of the wood (bling bling!) to keep under the bed, and lusted, lusted after a used Comanche revolver. Think is was $100. Where the heck were you back then to point me to my free luxury SUV and the tree where this cash grows?

[MASTEROFMALICE]

My first job out of my parents house, not really that long ago, $250 was two week's pay.

Then save up for two weeks or four weeks or eight weeks if need be.

[junyo]

I've said it before. The Jennings is built for one thing. It's meant to fire one magazine then be thrown down a storm drain.
Which of course, is a bad thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator).

[wideym]

I will admit to buying a jenning .22 pistol many, many, moons ago. I saw a sign in a local pawn shop that said "Back to School Specials" and listed bikes, boomboxes, and Jennings pistols. All were listed for $49.95 each.

I thought the sign was hilarious an bought that POS. It jammed constantly, and when I took it back the pawn shop told me no refunds but offered me $10.00 for it. I ended up throwing it in the Arkansas River to save some poor guy the troubles I had.

[junyo]

Then save up for two weeks or four weeks or eight weeks if need be.I'll ask the burgular if he wouldn't mind forgoing killing my family this week, and stop by in a month or so. I'm sure that'll work.

[MASTEROFMALICE]

I'm sure that same burglar isn't going to wait three weeks for you to whip out your pocketknife and reshape your bolt face.

Besides, if you have such an immediate pressing need for a gun that you can't wait three weeks, then SELL SOMETHING YOU DON'T NEED!

Cancel your cable TV. Sell your Playstation. Hock your CDs. Ditch your internet service. Everyone cries poverty but very few are willing to get rid of luxuries.

You know how I would have solved your problem? I'd have worked harder. Longer hours, maybe a second job. In fact, I do that now!

[junyo]

I'm sure that burgular doesn't knew whether or not I already have, or that he isn't a walking encyclopedia of gun ratings to the extent that he says, "Oh, that's a Jennings, there's a significant but statistically small chance that won't work, so I'll continue my crime!" And realistically, even if he did, he's still more likely to be dissuaded by the POS in my hand than the S&W that's still in the case at the store.

No internet at the time, no PC. No game consoles. A bed, a B&W TV in the corner,with rabbit ears, a metric ton of ramen noodles and some books. Two part time jobs, plus school. I know, I know, it was very swanky, but you only live once.

[BattleChimp Potemkin]

It seems instant gratification even extends to the "poor" (I agree with the better pistol crowd).

[MASTEROFMALICE]

Sorry, Junyo. I didn't realize you grew up in Mypos with Balki Bartokomous (old Perfect Strangers reference for those who've seen it).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balki

[junyo]

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. This isn't a case of instant gratification, this is gun control masked as a value choice. Throw out all the qualifiers you want, some people are poor. Not all the people that claim to be, but there are some people that are geniunely, bone crushingly, poor. And those people have the exact same right to self defense as anyone else. Everybody bitches about the artificial hurdles that you have to jump through for a silencer, or a NFA weapon, and it's another version of the exact same thing. Not illegal exactly, not inaccessible exactly, but priced far enough beyond the riff raff to be practically inaccessible. Poor people are the most likely to live in dangerous neighborhood and thus the most likely to actually NEED a firearm. Not next week, not a month from now, but right freaking now. Now when the methhead's trying to kick your door in. That the onerous burden of liability and litigation and and regulations have moved the "quality" firearms out of the pricerange of some people is something to be concerned about; because that's a battle lost for all of us. Woopty freaking do, you can a afford a quality piece so screw lazy stupid poor people. Yeah, but can you afford it when they tack on more regs and more liability and a "quality" piece starts running at $1k, or $2k, or $5k? Yeah, Jimenez guns are usually pot metal junk, but sometimes pot metal junk is better than nothing. And to basically say that you should go without until you can afford a real gun is to validate one of the gun grabber's arguments for them; that below a certain cost threshhold you don't deserve to be armed. That someone else should get to decide for you how you're going to defend yourself or your family. Go ahead and ban "Saturday Night Specials" Even legitimate gun owner's agree they're just for crime - "It's meant to fire one magazine then be thrown down a storm drain." Then, when they use the same template to regulate gun ownership beyond the means of the middle class I wonder how many will be making these same arguments?

[MASTEROFMALICE]

Well spoken, Junyo, and you're only forgetting one thing. I'm not simply spouting meaningless rhetoric, I'm actually speaking from experience.

If you need a gun to save your life, you'd better get a gun that will save your life.

[Ash]

I once owned a Bryco 9mm with 13 round magazine. Taught me a lesson about pistols. Mine was a real piece of crap. It hurt to shoot, being blow-back, and was not reliable in the least. A real jam-o-matic. But, it was reasonably accurate.

Ash

[littlegator]

Junyo - good link on your post #30 - I'd never heard of the "Liberator" before. Very interesting.

My take on this is that I'd rather be confident in that my skill set (or lack thereof) is not compromised by the tool being used to supplement the same. I obviously agree that a person's financial status should not be a precursor to self protection. However, I believe that a handgun merely for the sake of having a handgun may provide a false sense of security.

Indeed, though, never bring a knife to a gunfight is a truism, but this issue reveals yet again the need to have multiple levels of home defense without having to rely on a gun as your only level of defense. Irregardless of whether my nightstand gun is a JA or a HK, if I'm half asleep, groggy and stumbling in the middle of the night, it won't really matter. However, it would be nice to know that when I finally have to resort to using the gun, which for me would be the last level of defense other than my hands, etc., the gun that I've chosen as said last level will work. As Master of Malice said, if you can afford $100 to pay for a JA, save another $150 for a revolver or even a shotgun. Meanwhile, find ways to butress your other defenses, including and especially, your skillset and personal level.

[junyo]

Well spoken, Junyo, and you're only forgetting one thing. I'm not simply spouting meaningless rhetoric, I'm actually speaking from experience.

If you need a gun to save your life, you'd better get a gun that will save your life.Apparently anyone else's life experiances constitute "spouting meaningless rhetoric" so good luck with that. I'll stop wasting my time and yours.

[lee n. field]

If you can save up $100 for one of these, you can save up $200 for a used Smith or $300 for a new Taurus. If it takes longer, it takes longer.

It did. It did. Back in the day, it took me years to pull together a couple hundred bucks spare for my old Taurus 66.

t looks like we haven't gone unnoticed there, either. http://www.bryco-jennings-jimenezarm...pic.php?t=1240


Wave everybody!

I am not a "gun snob". I had a Jennings j-22. It was every bit the POS that it's reputation around here makes it out to be. If you've got one that works, wonderful for you.

Cancel your cable TV. Sell your Playstation. Hock your CDs. Ditch your internet service. Everyone cries poverty but very few are willing to get rid of luxuries.


Didn't have any of that, back in the day. Nobody had internet. We didn't even have a TeeVee for a long time (and, IMHO, getting one was a mistake). For a while, roughly half of what I brought home went to food.

[El Barto]

I've have an Davis P380, part of the "Ring of Fire" clan. It was given to me new by my brother and sister many years ago. I know they were excited to give it to me and I have kept it and I still shoot it every now and then. It has been reliable and I have trusted it when that was the only thing I had. It is now more of a paperweight then anything else, since I have others that I have for home defense.

I think that there are 2 types of people that buy these "Saturday Night Specials"; those that want them for the novelty and those that think that for some reason these are the only things they can buy:

- SNS are the only "economy" arms that the local gunstore/pawnshop carries.
- No mainstream media ads for good quality, economy firearms so there is nothing to compare to.
- Incorrect knowledge gained from friends, family, tv and movies.
- Failure to go to a place to gain knowledge; Bass Pro Shops are a bit intimidating to inner-city folk.
- The belief that new is better than used.
- Unknown reasons.

[Ash]

El Barto, that hits is largely on the head.

I bought my Bryco out of ignorance and based on what the dealer told me.

Davis

[-v-]

One thing I want to also point out is while a Jenings/Jiminez/Bryco is $150 a CZ-82 or a Makarov clone is only $170-$200. Heck I found some after a quick google search for $90. For about $20-$50 someone could get a piece that is not only as tough as the Venerable AK and Mother Russia which berthed it, but also get something that will hold up for long use and be something that can be pass down the line too. Thus I think I too have to back up El Barto's observation.

[Cannonball888]

My first pistol was a Jennings-22. Brand new, out of the box, the extractor broke on the first shot. What a POS.

[bladecp]

I still have an old Jennings .22. Damn thing slamfires and double or triple taps all the time. I'm waiting for a gun buy back so I can at least get something for it. More than once I've had someone not even wanting it thrown in with something else for a trade in.

Also, those "ring of fire" companies not only were under pressure for an unsafe design, but they had a LOT of new firearms go "missing" and couldn't be accounted for. That and they disproportionately turned up in high numbers for crime recovered handguns.

[Confederate]

Ah, I wish Jennings were still for sale. I wish Beretta 950s were still for sale. I have this Davis .32ACP that's a purty paperweight. Still have never shot the thing and I have only one box of ammo. I often wondered if I loaded it and pulled the trigger whether it would fire an entire clip. I have a Jennings that's great. Very reliable, but this thing's like a giant Raven .25, and I did have good luck with those.

It is kind of purty if you look at it just so in the light.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/jriler/DAVIS_380_2.jpg

[357WheelGun]

Yeah, Jimenez guns are usually pot metal junk, but sometimes pot metal junk is better than nothing. And to basically say that you should go without until you can afford a real gun is to validate one of the gun grabber's arguments for them; that below a certain cost threshhold you don't deserve to be armed.

Sometimes junk is indeed better than nothing. Driving a Yugo or a ZAZ 968 is better than walking, and even a Jimenez is better to bring to a gunfight than a Louisville Slugger. But you go too far here. Junk is junk. And while they may be better than walking, Yugos and ZAZ 968s are still junk. Jimenez pistols are still junk. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't be made. It's not about expense. HiPoint firearms are inexpensive, but have a decent reputation. Same for the Bersa Thunder 380 and the Makarov or the FEG PA 63.

Can a person take a Yugo and make a reliable car out of it? Sure. It's going to be a labor of love and if it's at all possible then for most people it's better to just spend a little more to start out with. If the person wants the Yugo because he finds it fun to work on the car and make it reliable through his own sweat and ingenuity then more power to him. But just because some people may enjoy that isn't going to suddenly make the Yugo a good choice for a person who is looking for reliability without having to turn a wrench.

The bottom line, there's nothing wrong with enjoying a cheap gun for the challenge it presents to one's tinkering skills. Just don't expect everyone else to love it too.

[RyanM]

I have to wonder, how much more expensive, if at all, would it be to make a reasonably compact firearm out of steel stampings, with minimal machined parts?

I'm thinking something like a miniaturized Mac 11, with a bolt that recoils partially out of the back of the gun, like a Ruger Mk. II. With single stack mags and sticking to .32 and .380, such a gun could be made quite small.

[junyo]

Sometimes junk is indeed better than nothing. Driving a Yugo or a ZAZ 968 is better than walking, and even a Jimenez is better to bring to a gunfight than a Louisville Slugger.Which is absolutely the only point I was trying to make.

Junk is junk. And while they may be better than walking, Yugos and ZAZ 968s are still junk. Jimenez pistols are still junk. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't be made. It's not about expense. HiPoint firearms are inexpensive, but have a decent reputation. Same for the Bersa Thunder 380 and the Makarov or the FEG PA 63. But I'm going to disagree with you there. Plot cost versus utility (measured as efectiveness which should be a constant by caliber and barrel length, with reliability of operation as a variable) on a graph and invariably utility would track with price up to some upper limit where the diffrence are so negligible as to be inconsequetial. But considering that we count instances where the mere appearance of a homeowners gun ends a confrontation, even a gun shaped object has some utility (plot those on the graph and you have a lower bound beyond which a replica is more cost effective). So junk isn't junk without qualifiers. And considering a) that most any gun, no matter how poorly made, usually is delivered functional, and b) the statistical rarity with which the average non-criminal citizen would have to actually discharge their weapon in a life or death struggle, the cost to increase the utility by a small margin is disproportionate. If I go from a gun that's 90% reliable (which is truly a absurd POS, 90% reliability means that I can't cycle a 10 round mag without a failure, I'd wager that discounting poor QC the worst gun maker on the planet can consistently produce something that's >95% reliable) to something that's 99.999 percent reliable (saying you "know your gun will work" is a crock of BS, there is no mechanical system more complicated than a pointy stick that's 100% reliable, otherwise the Glock boys wouldn't practice stoppage drills) but the price goes from $150 to $200 you've netted a <10% gain in utility for a 33% increase in cost. And real world, in absolute numbers, if you had a <50% chance of being a victim of a crime where your firearm could've come into play, you in all likelihood spent extra money for a marginal increase in utility only useful in a limited number of events (confrontations resulting in an exchange of gun fire where you fire more than 10 rounds) that aren't likely to occur. That also doesn't factor the opportunity costs of whatever you went without for that marginal increase in utility. That's fine, we buy insurance hoping we don't need it. But a smart man doesn't buy more insurance than he needs.

And realistically people talk massive smack about Keltec, Bersa, Highpoint all the time on this board. "I fired a Hipoint pistol once and it fell apart in my hands and killed my dog. That's when i vowed to never buy one of pieces of junk." Never mind the other 20,000 of the model that were fine, or the "gunsmithing" done by the previous owner. Immediately followed by the Glock fanboys, with the XD fanboys hot on their heels, and the various 1911 fanboys and the wheelgun fanboys, all testifying about what utter crap every other gun on the planet is. You could have a gun that destroys planets and a truism of thehighroad is a) some other guy had one and it didn't work therefore they're all crap, and b) if you were serious you would have saved up and bought the gun that destoys galaxies.

...for most people it's better to just spend a little more to start out with.Agreed. I'm an XD fanboy with a CZ carry piece; at this point in life it's usually worth it to spend more on gaining the extra utility and reliability. But the initial premise I responded to was the blanket statement that spending more made sense for everyone. Accepting that is pretty much accepting a de facto ban by price.

[357WheelGun]

You could have a gun that destroys planets and a truism of thehighroad is a) some other guy had one and it didn't work therefore they're all crap, and b) if you were serious you would have saved up and bought the gun that destoys galaxies.

The same is true on the automotive forums I frequent. And on any internet forum really. Honestly, I'd put money on better than 95% of us all getting along and swapping stories over a good beer if we were interacting face to face but the nature of a forum lends itself to quick responses that don't get fully thought out and to phrasing that seems harsher than intended.

A lot of people write very differently from the way they speak. I know that I come off a ****load more "professorial" in writing than I do when I speak; it's just the nature of the beast that things will get taken more seriously than they ought to at times.

But the initial premise I responded to was the blanket statement that spending more made sense for everyone. Accepting that is pretty much accepting a de facto ban by price.

I have to disagree here. There's a difference between a mandated restriction (e.g. a "ban") and a blanket recommendation. I would never recommend riding a motorcycle without a helmet, but that doesn't mean that I think helmets should be legally mandated in case someone disagrees with my own evaluation of the risk/reward curve.

People should absolutely be free to buy a Jimenez pistol, but that doesn't mean that I would ever recommend one other than as a novelty or something on which one plans to tinker. I wouldn't accept only 95% reliability from my car (that would be 1 failure every 20 starts, which would translate into the car failing once every 8-9 days on average for me) so I'm not going to recommend something with that level of reliability as a life-saving item.

My evaluation is that there is an immense amount of utility in the little bit of reliability gained. If someone disagrees with me, that's all well and good. They are free people and I encourage them to make their own decisions. To suggest that just because I wouldn't recommend something I am encouraging what amounts to a de-facto ban is ridiculous. A recommendation is one person's opinion; nothing more, nothing less. It is up to the person receiving the recommendation to assess whether or not his own evaluation of the utility is commiserate with the additional cost and from there to either follow or not follow the advice.

[Gator]

Hmmm.....The thread on the bryco-jennings-jimenezarms forum (http://www.bryco-jennings-jimenezarms.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1240) is more "High Road" than this one. Some of us do sound like elitist gun snobs. :uhoh:

[BHPshooter]

I have to disagree here. There's a difference between a mandated restriction (e.g. a "ban") and a blanket recommendation. I would never recommend riding a motorcycle without a helmet, but that doesn't mean that I think helmets should be legally mandated in case someone disagrees with my own evaluation of the risk/reward curve.

Exactly my view on them. I certainly don't support any kind of legal decision regarding them -- I'd prefer to let the marketplace decide, and they're doing that quite nicely. We sell a TON of Hi Points and Cobras at work. I usually only recommend them to people who absolutely, positively cannot afford anything else, or for someone who is just starting in the hobby and doesn't know if they will like it or not.

I think there can be a distinction made between Budget firearms and Crap. Kel-Tec, Bersa, and Firestorm, IMO, are good guns at an unbelievable price. Jennings, Cobra, et cetera -- also IMHO -- are Crap. We see enough of them at work to know the difference. Hi Point, in my estimation, is right on the borderline. Their saving grace, however, is their ironclad warranty, which is nothing but terrific.

Hmmm.....The thread on the bryco-jennings-jimenezarms forum is more "High Road" than this one. Some of us do sound like elitist gun snobs.

I very much disagree. I find it funny that those who happen to own less expensive people insist on name-calling anyone with something more expensive. I haven't yet seen where one of us "elitist snobs" has called anyone a name. We did comment on the pistol. We never called their owners any names.

There is a real one-sidedness to this. It's okay to have a nice pistol, but it's not okay to talk about it, apparently. It's also not okay to talk about brands that are less expensive, so I guess somebody with a Korth isn't allowed to talk guns at all.

But the other side, however, gets to massage their egos by calling us "elitist," "gun snob," and "Richie Rich." They also get to tell us how they customized their "metallurgically challenged" pistols, but we're not allowed to comment. Most amusing of all, we get to hear about how their $75 gun is "just as good" as a $750 Sig.

I respect your right to own whatever you want -- but that doesn't mean there isn't any difference. There's still a good reason why no police force or military issues Hi Points.

Wes

[Ash]

The spelling is "chitterlings" and while I prefer them stuffed with meat and called sausage, they are no more a racial thing than cornbread or collard greens, both of which I eat with tremendous satisfaction. Of course, folks might try to make it a racial thing, as did some factory workers 20 years ago who were insulted at being served "soul food" on MLK day. Like Lewis Grizzard said, instead of being insulted by "soul food" be glad you have "good food" because frankly a bowl of collards or turnips with some pepper sauce and crackling bread cannot be beat. Neither can a bowl of dried beans, crackling bread, and several thick onion wedges.

Ash

[Old Dog]

Are we following the script yet?
I won't go there, but I can guess what the conversation will be like for a few days until something else comes along to vent about:
1. A bunch of posts will rail against "potmetal junk."
2. A bunch more will go so far as to say anyone (anyone like me) is stupid for owning potmetal junk.
3. A few posts will barely hide their racist and socio-economic predjudice.
4. One or two won't bother to hide anything.
5. Some folks will chime in and apologize for owning a piece of potmetal junk, even though it has never given them trouble.
6. One or two brave souls will go so far as to say there's nothing wrong with the potmetal junk they own, and that it's a free country.
7. "Louder" voices will shout down anyone who makes any sense..until someone finally does, and then
8. Some folks will post denials ("I'm not a snob...", I"m not racsist... etc..)
9. then the thread will end and another one will catch the mob's attention.

Rather seems so.

Frankly, I do regard some of the comments made in the other forum's thread as having some validity. We are indeed guilty as charged of "eating our young" over here, although I'd posit that most of the more senior members here don't engage in that behavior. And as one poster over there noted, "Even Taurus handguns are considered SNS's by some THR members."

The problem I have with SNS's is that most of those who would buy them -- and possibly have to use one in a legitimate defensive situation -- probably have no idea how to clear a malfunction with one of these pistols -- which could be a really bad thing.

[denfoote]

Shining Star Investments LLC

Distributor of
Jimenez Arms


Why does this sound like a front company for the People's Liberation Army or the Shining Path Maoist rebels of Peru ?? :scrutiny:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shining_Path

http://www.shiningstardist.com/home.htm

[Jim K]

When it comes to defense guns, I have one criterion. Reliability. Nothing else much matters. If those cheap guns worked (as High Points do), I would be the first to say they are OK. But they all too often don't and won't work on the first shot. I have seen plenty that wouldn't fire at all, or fired one shot and quit. No matter how poor you are, there is no point in having that kind of a gun, it only gives false confidence. As to being poor, been there, done that, don't want to do it again.

Jim

[Freightman]

We had a J.C. Higgins pump shot gun at the shop in almost new condition for $100 I have one just like it and have had since 1956 never failed and I have shot a truck load of quail with it. Why am I saying this that is cheaper than the gun we are talking about and a whole lot better home defense than a .380. If you are serious about home defense you can get thoes old shot guns that haven't had a box of shells through it and they are quality firearms and a pump shot gun will get the bad guys attention fast.
We have two of the J guns at the shop and I will not even try to sell them as I know what they are POJ and care less about the boss he can sell them I refuse.
O by the way I just work part time at his request and if he is not happy I will be gone.

[Caimlas]

I have absolutely nothing wrong with inexpensive, cheaply made firearms. I just wish they'd be made well enough to be reliable and safe!

So it's pretty safe to say I've got a problem with these pot metal guns. $100 is not that much, but then neither is $300, when you consider that a box of ammo for it is going to cost you $15+, and that's only for one box. Also take into consideration that most people do not know that things like milsurp pistols (available for under $100) are available. The problem is availability.

And I can definitely sympathize with the need for an inexpensive handgun for self-protection. I don't currently "need" one, and I've been fortunate enough to have somewhat better my entire life, but what about the person with a family who really is "just getting by", with bills stacked high? $100 is a lot of money for some people, and more excess than they'll have to spend over a period of months (save $30 one month, and the next month something happens and you're $50 in the hole - never fun).

When you think about it, a pistol could probably be made - and made to be reliable - for around $100. It wouldn't be pretty, no - I imagine a large part of the cost of a gun these days comes from the fancy machining that needs to be done to make it look "nice". Some sturdy sheet metal/polymer for the frame, decent metal for the bolt face, firing pin, and barrel, and you'd mostly be set, I'd think: it'd not be able to run thousands of rounds, but you'd get several hundred from it reliably, I'd think.

These guns - the Jennings and similar - shouldn't exist, but not for any gun control snobbery. They shouldn't exist because they're as dangerous to the shooter as they are to the target - if not because they'll malfunction when they're needed, then because they'll blow up in your hand and hurt you directly.

[DiN_BLiX]

My first hand-gun was a MAK, I paid 150 bucks for it, dead reliable and accurate, built like a friggin tank. It sits in the top of my closet in the box now. It served it purpose and is now retired from defensive pistol role. I could have gotting a bryco/jennings/steaming pile of dog excrement for cheaper, but my father taught me to "Never listen to what that jackass working in the pawn shop tells you." No RESPECTABLE gun dealer will sell/deal with those from what ive seen. If that makes me a snob, so be it, I am a snob of guns that work everytime.

[BHPshooter]

$100 is a lot of money for some people, and more excess than they'll have to spend over a period of months (save $30 one month, and the next month something happens and you're $50 in the hole - never fun).

Why do you think it took me 3 years to save for my Browning? I know what it feels like to barely scrape by. That's why it's so uproariously funny that some guys call me "classist."

If I'm a bigot, then it's only against shoddy quality.

Wes

[rockinrussky]

As I just mentioned in another thread I've shot a 380 Jennings and it just felt like a cheaply made pot-metal tin. For such a caliber, I felt like it would break my wrist (and I own a 357 sig so I'm used to snappy recoil). Its one thing that a firearms is inexpensive and I'm just going by my limited experience, but I'd rather spend an extra $100 for a makarov or a cz-82.

In reference to the bryco-jennings forum, appearently we're not only elitist but also quite 'racist' for our criticism. From what I've seen they're the ones using the SNS (saturday night special) designation... Ah well, I gotta get back to my bourgeois ways of shooting my milsurp Mosin and AK.

[takhtakaal]

... appearently we're not only elitist but also quite 'racist' for our criticism ...

There is a considerable amount of racism displayed here at THR, and it isn't very THR. I'm not suggesting that you're denying it, but saying that it doesn't happen is wrong.

[Brian Williams]

It's done.