[marinepilot81]

A buddy of mine pulled the "armed people will just end up shooting and killing everyone. We don't need the OK Corral inside a mall or classroom" on me during a discussion so I thought I'd try a few things out at the range.

This is my carry gun (XD45 4in with competition trigger job) and my carry ammo (Doubletap 200gr +P). So in other words, if you found me in a hypothetical mall shooting, this is what I'd have on a standard day.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z146/marinepilot25/XD45.jpg

**Yes, I understand there's no adrenaline, it's a stationary target, etc**
All shots were fired with a sense of urgency (no slow fire).

Target 1: Split half and half from 10-15yds. I drew from a concealed carry and fired 2 rounds at the chest, switched mags, then fired 2 at the head.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z146/marinepilot25/range2edit.jpg

Target 2: Half 20 and half 25yds. I drew from a concealed carry and fired 1 round at the body. For the head shots, I drew from a concealed carry, braced myself on the counter (to simulate taking cover in a mall), and fired 1 round at the head.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z146/marinepilot25/range1edit.jpg

Here's what I learned:
1. Most self defense engagements are 3-7yds. At 10-15yds, I'm confident I can hit my target (and so can other CCW holders).
2. Though only done to separate groups, aiming for the head is dangerous. None of my chest shots missed, but several head shots went into the "unknown".
3. Aim small, miss small. The body shots were more spread out because I was focusing on a larger area. Pick a point on the torso and engage, don't just shoot at the torso.
4. CCW holders reported being within 20-30yrds of the last mall shooter. The range only goes to 25, but I think I effectively engaged the target (and so can other CCW holders).
5. The braced/covered position increased accuracy (no kidding, right?) which would mean that if someone in the Virginia Tech dorm could have posted up in the hallway or someone in the mall shooting could have covered behind a directory, bench, kiosk, etc an accurate shot could be placed at 25yds.
6. EVEN IF I didn't hit my target, these shots are definitely close enough to suppress a gunman and allow the other people to flee.
7. I shoot left. Damnit.

Was this of any use? Any suggestions or tips?

[ZeSpectre]

Tried a similar experiment a while ago with an airsoft gun that went something like this.

Outdoor range, I was the only person there so I had free run of the place. Set up target on a wooden stand. I then ran around the range full tilt until I was good and winded. Walked up to the target and ran a "close quarters drill"

http://www.policeone.com/writers/columnists/POSA/articles/121328/
Drill #1 -- No time to draw.

Situation: A deadly force attack that comes so close and so fast that you don't have time to draw your gun. Since most such attacks occur spontaneously and at very close distance, this is a typical attack.

Drill 1A: Face the target, 1 yard away. On cue (such as the command "danger") drive towards the target and strike it with an effective, devastating empty hand technique. (Don't know any? Learn some. Also, you'll need sturdy target stands for this one.) While maintaining forward pressure on the target, draw your gun and fire several shots onto the target with your gun hand's fingers touching your ribs (sometimes called a "gun retention position".)
(I slap my "off hand" fist to my chest before opening fire. Do not try this drill unless you've been trained!)

I shot three rounds "point shooting" while backing off and to the side, then slowed up and did two more aimed shots to the head of the target. The results would have been effective.

Then ran around some more and tried some 30ft shots (this time with a real firearm). Still managed to pull a mostly pie-plate sized group but it was a real eye opener to fight against a slamming heart and trembling muscles!

[matt87]

I wonder if you could get a group of your friends together, each kitted out with airsoft goggles. You carry an airsoft version of your carry piece, concealed as usual. Same for your friends. Everyone goes about their business, say, listening to music, fixing up cars or whatever you do with your friends (other than guns!). You could simulate a defense situation by having a certain person, randomly and secretly selected by a seperate person draw and start shooting. Practise target ID, surprise, accuracy etc.

[marinepilot81]

Sure, let me pitch that to my friends Matt haha.

This experiment was mainly for my liberal friends, but I thought I'd include it here as well.

For my own knowledge, an IDPA match satisfied and doubts I had about carrying. I keep forgetting that, no matter how many experiments I run, you can't argue against emotion.

[Majic]

Now put away your modified pistol and add a totally stock 2 or 3 inch pistol or revolver that a lot of CCW holders carry. Add the excitement of possibly being shot at and the noise and distraction of people running everywhere. Now do you think you can repeat your feat?
6. EVEN IF I didn't hit my target, these shots are definitely close enough to suppress a gunman and allow the other people to flee.
What if those missed shots hit the people trying to flee?

[bensdad]

What if those missed shots hit the people trying to flee?

What if psycho shooters run free? What if we hunker down under a table in the food court and wait for the cavalry?

[marinepilot81]

Now put away your modified pistol and add a totally stock 2 or 3 inch pistol or revolver that a lot of CCW holders carry

I found the caliber, style, trigger pull, etc that allows me to conceal the weapon and hit the target when necessary. If you choose to carry a revolver or 3in 1911, it is the responsibility of the individual to be proficient.

Add the excitement of possibly being shot at and the noise and distraction of people running everywhere. Now do you think you can repeat your feat?

Eh...here:
**Yes, I understand there's no adrenaline, it's a stationary target, etc**

What if those missed shots hit the people trying to flee?

1. I'm not going to fire into the masses.
2. I even tell my liberal friends "it's unrealistic to assume a zero casualty situation. CCWs have the ability, in certain circumstances, however, to limit the death toll."
3. I'd feel horrible about killing someone fleeing, but If they're close enough to get hit while I'm shooting, they're probably next on the bad guy's list.
4. We live in a liberal society so I'm assuming that if I ever defend myself or other people, I will be spending time in jail. "I give us...one chance in three."

[Wes Janson]

Nice Red October reference there.

From a standing or sitting position, using a 5" 1911 under reasonably calm circumstances (mildly competitive, no time limit), I'm pretty confident I can hit COM fairly often out to 50 yards or so (target was approx 4" wide, 10" tall). Out of nine rounds in the weapon, I'd expect at least three or four to hit.

[marinepilot81]

No one will ever create realistic training for this. Paintball and simulator rounds for the military may come close, but when the bullets aren't real, you get the Medal of Honor winners everywhere.

It is important to know whether or not you can do it at some level of tactical replication and to be able to show the Antis, too.

My friend's response? Standard.

"Well maybe you can, but there's a lot of people out there that shouldn't own guns and I think the laws we have now make us safer."

[xd45gaper]

if you are dropping mags after 2 rounds you are going to be out of ammo quick!!!:neener:

[marinepilot81]

Good call. All the more reason to carry 10 mags.

[Pat-inCO]

7. I shoot left. Damnit.
Just relax a bit more. You are anticipating the shot. :D

I know because my first 100 at the range (after a winter of little shooting) went right (I'm Left Handed). :banghead:

[Tom Servo]

Shooting left is usually caused by tightening the grip. You may also have too little finger on the trigger.

After Westroads mall, I looked closely at several public shootings. There were several similarities:

An observant person would have noticed the shooter acting suspicious. Any of us would have put space between us and the shooter.
The shooters seemed to take their time acquiring targets. They seem to assume they've got control of the killing floor.
None of these guys were very good marksmen. They'd have a hard time hitting a moving target, one with cover, or one that's shooting back.
All the shooters were abject cowards and would likely flee if confronted by armed resistance.


Taking this into account, a CCW holder could have stopped any of them. Would the good guy have stopped it completely? No, but they could have ended it much earlier. Look at Hawkins: he sauntered in with SOMETHING large under his jacket, and he took his time pulling it out...well, I'D notice.

In such a situation, it's unlikely I'd be the primary target for this guy (they're looking for the oblivious and vulnerable), so I'd have time to draw and fire from distance. This is a different scenario than having a crazed junkie rush me on the street. It won't be as close, and I won't have to worry about being quick.

What I will have to worry about is accuracy. I've talked to Air Marshals about this. They train to fire down a narrow aisle or right over peoples' heads in a cramped plane. I'll be under similar circumstances if I choose to take the shot; I can't risk collateral damage, morally or legally.

And I'm up against someone who couldn't care less about such things. Drat. Double drat if they have a rifle and all I've got is a pistol.

Rule #4 is of mortal importance in a situation like this, but to misquote Wyatt Earp, just be slow in a hurry and make every shot count.

[jakemccoy]

marinepilot wrote,
A buddy of mine pulled the "armed people will just end up shooting and killing everyone. We don't need the OK Corral inside a mall or classroom" on me during a discussion so I thought I'd try a few things out at the range.

Ahhh, the good ol’ OK Corral argument…

I'd ask my friend to describe out loud the alternative to having a CCW holder counter the shooter. (Of course, we already know the alternative from real cases - Omaha mall, Vtech, Columbine, Amish school.)

I'd then ask him to recall real cases where a CCW holder has countered a shooter. If he couldn't, I'd start him off with the Colorado church case and then move to some lesser known cases. They're lesser known because there were no dead bodies to report!

It gets on my nerves when people think their own imaginations trump real cases that we can analyze.

[Tom Servo]

Don't forget Joel Myrick. (http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OthWr/principal&gun.htm)

[marinepilot81]

That article was written in Boulder, Co. As a graduate od CU Boulder, I can tell you he has a long, hard fight ahead of him in that town.

Both my parents are teachers in Colorado. My dad's a little bit like Rambo, so I don't worry about him, but I've been trying to talk my mother into carrying a pistol ILLEGALLY just in case. I think a 5'1, 60 yr old woman might be able to make her case if caught.

Of course, the friend I sent those pics to, has never fired a gun...and never wants to.

His answer..."I'm not scared of them and yes, I think that if it would save one more life, I'd support removing the RKBA from 300 million people."

All emotion...no facts.

[crebralfix]

7. I shoot left. Damnit.

(of course, not seeing you shoot makes it really difficult to troubleshoot, so....)

TRIGGER CONTROL!

People will say "press" the trigger. This is meant to influence the way you think about it.

If you look at how your trigger finger REALLY works, you will see that it does a sort of "question mark" movement. It's not straight at all; it's a curve. That means you need to be conscious of the fact that the trigger may only move straight back. It actually requires you to CHANGE the relationship between the pad of your finger and your trigger AS THE TRIGGER MOVES BACK. A long double action trigger will require more change.

I call all this more of a pull/press as a reminder for the actual movement.

Try this with your "air gun" very slowly and you'll see that your finger cannot move straight back without adjustments at the knuckle (even then, I can only do 1/4" of an inch). Now try it with your empty pistol. Look at how the pressure needs to change on the face of the trigger.

You can validate your trigger work in three ways: 1) results on paper with live rounds (expensive), 2) using a laser sight, or 3) placing an empty shell casing on top of your front sight. If you dry fire and the case falls off or moves, then you did something to cause it to do so.

Furthermore, downrange.tv has a video called "The Bump Drill". Try it. Also try "The Wall Drill".

[32winspl]

10 or so years back, when still living in a large city in the South (and carrying concealed), I was a weekly competitor in USPSA shoots. My wife had a number of friends involved in paint-ball, and she/they, for a while, were after me to join them. I did attend twice as an observer and it looked like a hell of a lot of fun. I thought a lot about trying it but chose not to because of the old adage that "what you do in practice, you'll do in real life"... and I didn't think it would be a good thing for me (as a CCP) to get in the habit and mindset of actually shooting at real live people. I suppose that some, most or even all of you might disagree with me on this, but I think I'd rather risk (in the event I ever had to draw my gun) not shooting for a half-second or whatever, rather than having trained myself to shoot things at people in a "game" situation without serious consequence.
In no way am I passing judgement on anyone else. I was later involved in a holdup inside my own van; me with my 1911 vs a guy and his Raven .25. The situation was resolved with no shots being fired, and I got to keep my van, tools, money, and got to go home to my family. I'm not saying that all these things are related, but they might be.

[Deavis]

What if those missed shots hit the people trying to flee?

Considering that most people are either running or on the deck while the shooter is standing up, it really does minimize the chance of hitting a bystander. Is it a possibility? Sure, but it is a small chance wheras if you don't hit the shooter then there is a a big chance he'll shoot someone else. Targets cowering behind tables praying for 911 aren't too tough to hit.