[-v-]

Have a question for all you defensive minded Highroaders, on Seecamp's website I came across a blurb that implies that pistol sights on anything other then a target-pistol are for the most part pointless:

http://seecamp.com/faq.htm#No%20Sights
An exhaustive NYPD report (NYPD SOP 9) revealed that in 70% of recorded police shootings (the majority under poor lighting conditions) officers did not use sights while 10% of the time officers didn’t remember whether sights were used. In the remaining 20% of the cases, officers recollected using some form of visual aid to line up the target ~ which could be the sights themselves or just the barrel.

With both hands in front of one’s face, one is less able to recognize whether a possible threat is reaching for a gun or a wallet when the landscape below the target area is blocked from view.

Although I cannot backup his claims with personal experience, what he says does have a certain resonance to it. So what are your all's thoughts? Should those of us who train for SD begin to train to do snap-shooting using feel alone and intentionally ignoring the sights? Do any of you all already do that? Does this equally mean that those nice tritium sights are nothing more then fancy gun-ornaments :p?

Any 3-gun matchers and other folks who do a lot of "practical shooting games" want to chime in on their personal experience?

This article also made me recall that when I played pistols-only airsoft games, the sights were used for only the first shot, and even then only ~50% of the time. At the usual ranges of 15-25 feet, most aiming was done by instinct, and usually with good results. This is a little far for an average SD shooting, since I recall the average being 3-5 feet, but I feel confident that if I can snap shoot with no sights at 15 feet I can do so at 5 as well. Mandatory disclaimer airsoft is NOT a real gunfight, but I do think that at pistol distances it offers a sufficiently close simulation of one as to still have some educational and training merit.

Your alls thoughts?

[Brian Williams]

Rarely, then I only do it at nose-picking distances.

[rainbowbob]

At the range last week I tried shooting for the first time without using the sights or even the barrel as a reference. I was shooting my snubby at about 15 ft, rapid fire, from a down ready starting position. I wasn't too happy with my results, but decided it is something I will continue to practice to see if it can be improved. I can consistantly hit pretty nice groups at 20-30 feet with rapid aimed fire, but I know that picking up my sights will not be possible in many situations.

[rainbowbob]

Oops! Mistaken post deleted.

[Standing Wolf]

It took me a long, long time to think to shoot without sights. Once I tried it, the idea made perfect sense.

[The Lone Haranguer]

I've trained myself to use the "flash sight picture," a quick, rough visual index of the sights on the target - but not to the exclusion of all else. There are times when you cannot obtain a good sight picture. Perhaps your glasses got knocked off, the lighting is poor, you've already been injured, etc. For that I like to use a "silhouette point," a quick index of the rear of the slide or cylinder on the target. This is essentially what you are doing when you aim that Seecamp.

I am also a little skeptical of the claim quoted above. IMO Seecamp's justification or rationale for not using sights is that they will add bulk to what is supposed to be a tiny hideout gun, as well as snag on tight pockets, etc. - not that you won't use your sights anyway, so why bother. Jim Cirillo (in whose writings I learned the "silhouette point" from) has written of concentrating so hard on his front sight during a gunfight that he could see every serration on the ramp. I believe that if you train yourself to use sights in practice, you will use them "for real," but be ready to use a fallback technique.

Guns, Bullets and Gunfights by Jim Cirillo (http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=139)

[Chester32141]

I've always thought that this was one of the reasons to get plenty of practice w/ your carry piece ... if I'm target shooting I use my sights ... but ... I generally toss a few downrange at the end of each session w/o sights to retain my ability to hit my target w/o careful aim ... target shooting I try to get inside a 1" circle ... w/o sights I consider a paper plate good enough ....

Chester

[Zak Smith]

A few points to consider:

* The sights are always on the gun; I can either use that visual information or not.

* Studies that show that people who don't train regularly also don't use the sights in real life scenarios is almost a tautology. A better question would be, who has a higher hit percentage: people who train, or people who don't train.

* The vast majority of BTDT tactical pistol/rifle trainers teach to using the sights because they are lowest common denominator to make a hit: if the sights are aligned on the target when the trigger is pressed, the bullet WILL impact the target.

* When I did force on force training the first time, my gun-handling and marksmanship "reverted" to what I do most often, which is to draw and shoot from an iso stance and use the sights.

* As I wrote over in the shotgun thread, there is a spectrum of aiming techniques, from total point-shooting or index shooting, up to a very strong front sight focus, with a bunch of nuance in between. Point shooting has certain physical requirements:
The downside to point/index shooting is that when the stance or grip or index or body position breaks down, or isn't just right, or maybe you have to shoot on the move, then the physical relationships between your body (kinesthetic awareness), the gun, and the target change, and this affects where the gun is actually "aimed" vs. where you've been trained to believe it is aimed.

[WinchesterAA]

I'm a snap shooter with everything. My 1911 doesn't even have sights yet but I still take it to the range and do surprisingly well for even target practice (4" groups at 15 yards). If I'm spooked, I probably won't use my sights, but if it's a matter of taking a shot sights definitely need to be there.

[DragonFire]

Police shootings and civilians shoots are very different. Police have to concentrate on the target (and bystanders and traffic and ...) as much as they do aiming. Civilians can usually concentrate completely on the sights/gun and let the "target" be fuzzy.

The idea that you will draw your weapon and yell "freeze" and then try to decide if the BG is going for a wallet or a gun just won't happen. You have to see an actual threat before you draw, and at that point the BG either stops completely or is shot.

And you should not be taking 20 yards shots. If the BG is that far away, your best bet is to run to cover or to escape.

You are also responsible for every bullet you fire. "Good results" may not be good enough if you're in court trying to say you intentionally didn't use your sights. You will do in real life what you practice (just not as well). If you practice using your sights, you will use them when the time comes.

That's not to say that you would ALWAYS use your sights. If the BG is real close, you sometime don't have room to raise the gun high enough to use the sights, and in low light you may not be able to see the sights.

So the idea is to get the best sight picture you can under the current circumstances, whether sighted or not.

[hnk45acp]

I practice both with and without. I carry in my place of business and it can become quite crowded and people can come really close to me so I've practiced point shooting at distances of 5-15 feet.
It's very difficult but I can get most of the bullets on a 12inch circle at those distances but it requires constant practice. If you practice it all the time you will get good at it but don't do it if you're not commiting to that particular manual of arms.
I usually point shoot from the hip with my elbow against my hip to prevent limpwristing. It also gives me a point of reference on my body that is consistant every time.
I was able to surreptitiously hit the bullseye on a target about 15 feet away just due to repetitive muscle memory.

[-v-]

I think hnk45 raises a good point there, under ideal circumstances the BG will be 5+ yards away where you can raise your weapon and cite it in. But, in an ideal world the BG would never have approached you and we would have world peace too :D. At the "average" ranges of 3-5 feet, raising and sighting your weapon might mean that the muzzle would almost be flush with the BG. Not a good situation if you want to focus on weapon retention. Likewise, if the situation escalates in a hurry, the opportunity to obtain a good sight picture, or a sight picture at all may not be possible. It may be a situation of draw and shoot as fast as possible.

Likewise, I would say as a defensive shooter you too have to think about by-standards. One of the easiest ways to not accidentally hit an other person is to realize there is another person. Going into tunnel-vision mode in tracing out every nook and cranny of a gunsight seem to me a good way to blank out what is going on around you and accidentally have a stray round go somewhere where it shouldn't. Not to mention it is bad for situational awareness. Plus, if I am focused on defending myself, I will be rushed, panicked, and have a bit of adrenaline coursing. Considering the event happens in 3-5 seconds, I doubt most shooters would have time to reason through establishing a proper sight picture prior to letting off rounds. In a situation like that muscle-memory takes over, and actions would seem to follow reflex over reason.

To some extent I even doubt that there would be enough time to bring a weapon up to eye-level to attempt to establish a sight picture, or even a proper 2-handed grip. Thus as hnk said, dilligence in sight-less shooting is needed so that you can develop the muscle memory to shoot accurately at close range with no sights.

To reply to DragonFire, I'm not advocating that we should intentionally forgo the use of sights, the point I want to raise is that in realistic conditions we may not have the opportunity to use those sights, thus we need to be able (as responsible defensive shooters) to shoot accurately without having to use sights, since we may not always have that luxury.

That's so far my $0.02

[Zak Smith]

To some extent I even doubt that there would be enough time to bring a weapon up to eye-level to attempt to establish a sight picture, or even a proper 2-handed grip.
Take some force on force training if you haven't already. It's a huge eye opener.

[jaydubya]

During my weekly range sessions, I usually practice half iron sights and half Crimson Trace lasers (I have them on three handguns). Today, by coincidence, I decided to try point shooting as well. Although I threw some rounds completely outside the silhouette at seven yards, I was impressed with the overall results. The laser will remain my primary sighting device, but I am going to practice point shooting a lot more.
Cordially, Jack

[LUPUS]

I do practice shooting without using the sights.
And it should done regularly, IMHO.

Regards.

[Ankeny]

To some extent I even doubt that there would be enough time to bring a weapon up to eye-level to attempt to establish a sight picture, or even a proper 2-handed grip. I practice shooting without sights from retention and along the draw stroke. It's a good tool to have for those times when the support hand is preoccupied or when the distance is so close firing at extension could risk losing the gun.

As for time, at five yards there is approximately .05-.10 difference between my 1/2 hip draw and drawing the gun to a two handed grip to eye level. This is assuming an A box hit on a USPSA target.

[AZAndy]

Any gun I actually carry, I practice shooting from around the hip up to just below the eyes. I try not to look at the gun at all. Gotten so that I feel pretty confident of a head/throat shot out to 15 feet, which wouldn't be what I was aiming for in a bad situation anyway. The pistols I don't carry, like the 1911 and CZ52 and Nagant revolver and so on, I use the sights always-- and have even replaced the sights on the 1911 for faster acquisition.

I guess I've separated the guns into two classes-- self-defense and fun. The former, I'll shoot one-handed, wrong-handed, upside down, whatever, just to know that I can hit what I need to hit no matter what. Someday I'm going to add a revolver to my carry rotation and I intend to shoot it from inside a pocket, just to see how that would be. Can't wait. :-)

[crebralfix]

rogerphillips.oregonshooter.com

Everything you need is there.

[mavracer]

I practice without sights every time I shoot my seecamp or AMT backup 45

[Archer1945]

Out to three yards I can put a full magazine COM from my XD45 without even looking at the sights. And that is not with practice ammo, it is with Winchester Ranger 230gr and Remington 230gr Golden Saber. Haven't tried beyond that distance yet but I have a feeling a full mag will still be on target at seven yards.

[2ndamd]

I do practice point shooting for 50 rounds through each carry gun twice-a-month.

I like revos and can see myself having my hand on a gun inside a coat pocket and then BOOM. The threat esculates to deadly force proportion. I do not even need to draw the gun. Just point and shoot.

I practice at 7 yards and have even practiced at 15 yrds.

[jungleroy]

On a regular basis when at the range and if I have one of the pistol bays to my self, yes, you bet, I most certainly do practice without sights.

My target practice is not always about getting one ragged hole thru my target at 20 yards. There is a time and place for simple target shooting, and like i said above, when conditions are safe for point shooting, I do.

I start about 10 feet from the silhouette, draw and fire 2 rounds, then holster my sidearm, take 2 steps back and draw and fire 2 rounds, until the magazine is dry.
Point shooting is not for everyone, but many people can safely learn and be quite proficient at it.

[M2 Carbine]

Do you practice shooting without sights?
Yes, quite often I practice without using the iron sights.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/CTlefthand15shots.jpg

I do use a laser though.;)

[Markbo]

I practice shooting without sights about as often as I practice driving without a steering wheel.

[sm]

Yes.

I had Chuck Yeager eyes until I hit my 40's.

Zak is correct, one needs to get some training, even if they do have younger eyes.

I started shooting handguns at age 3, rifles at age 4 and shotguns at age 5.
Mentors had guns without sights, for me to use in getting lessons.

They knew a little kid, kid getting bigger, teenager and young adult with good eyes, and especially someone like me with better than average eyes, needed to be able to shoot without "sights".

Clarification - if the sights gets busted off, big blob of grass, mud was on a sight in a fight for survival , or I got something in my dominate eye ( sand, dirt, ) ..."sights" as we often use in context might not be the "sight" one has in a serious situation.

This is why my mentors harped, and I now harp, about gun fit, correct basic fundamentals, learning one gun platform really well , lessons and quailty practice.
The human computer is remarkable, and just like a computer GIGO (garbage in/garbage out) one is wise to program the human computer with quality data in order to receive quality data.

My take is, and comes from my lessons , experiences, and observations, Mentors were correct.

If one has a S&W Model 10 for example, and that gun has stocks that fit them, and they get lessons and training and continue quality practice, shoots that gun without glasses on - even use a gun with the front sight removed on purpose for training as they have "good eyes"...

This transitions to having to use a Colt Detective Special, Ruger Six Series, SP101...whatever.

Ditto for a semi-auto...say a Kel-Tec P-11 , Beretta Tomcat...

So at some private places I have assisted, sights were removed on purpose from Model 10s, Glocks, Kel-Tec P-11 and other guns as young eyes can see better.
Even the older folks shot these guns, even with glasses off, and they say they cannot "see" a sight, in essence some eyes will "see" something.
We took it down to the "worst" level, by removing sights totally for lessons.

Gun fit and correct basics really are "seen" with the sights removed, and especially if lessons are stepped up a notch or three with added pressures.

Put a patch over dominate eye for instance to replicate that eye having sand or dirt , or blood in it.

[Chris Rhines]

Sight focus is an analog, rather than a binary decision. I've trained at shooting with varying levels of sight focus, from none all the way up to a very hard front sight focus. As the shot gets more difficult, I read more information from the sights.

There is no hard and fast rule for how much you should use the sights. The only solution is to train on different targets at different distances under different conditions, and figure it out for yourself.

- Chris

[Tom Fury]

I do it too: Index the highly visible back end of a 1911 firing pin with center mass. I have a belly gun with no sights (Very like Colt New Agent or RCP) and this is useful for me.

Cheers, TF

[Lonestar49]

...

Inside 16ft up to 5ft away, point and shoot but from 16ft and out I use sights, or both eyes open with CT laser grips on my Sig P229 9mm (night, and night stand) gun.


Ls

[Mad Magyar]

Having been trained in point shooting (R.Applegate-Brad Steiner disciple), watching Personal Defense TV where a GunSite instructor is showing Tom Gresham a 2-hand, up to Sighted Grip at 3 YDS!!...
I was squirming in my seat.....Tom; you didn't survive.....:scrutiny: Too much time....
Unaimed fire practice is a must at close range....:)

[Arkady]

Working on point shooting and push-off drills is simply good sense if you carry a gun for self defense.
In a defensive shooting, you may not have the time or the DISTANCE to properly use your sights.

MarkBo's comment makes an irrelevant comparison--you're much more likely to lack either the time or distance to establish a proper sight picture in a defensive action than you are to find yourself in a car with no steering wheel.

[MCgunner]

Well, the people at Seecamp probably don't do any handgun hunting or outdoor carry, apparently. Actually, sounds like they're trying to justify the gun not having sights. That is the main reason I wouldn't want a Seecamp. Sights are mandatory on my handguns and for some uses, adjustables. My carries are fixed sighted except for my Taurus 66 3" .357.

I do point shoot practice, but only up very close. At 15 feet, I'll shoot from about chest high and reference the barrel. I practice shooting at contact distance from the body as in if I were wrestling with the bad guy, hold the gun close to my body, but I don't stick my hand out except to contact the target, then bring it in. Got to be real careful doing that with live ammo. I wouldn't bring it in during a life threatening situation. I've also practiced that in the house with those Speer plastic bullets and a home made plastic bullet trap. Good thing to practice because that's likely what you'll get into if you have to use the gun. For this sort of work, a laser grip would be real handy. I may spring for one on my home defense .38 someday.

[Vern Humphrey]

The only two times I have shot a human being with a handgun, I used the sights. I have used rifles and automatic rifles, and always used the sights. With a true machinegun, "strike of the bullet" (walking a burst into the target) is an effective method of engaging.

I practice aimed fire, but when working for speed, I see the sights stacked one above the other, and the target about equidistant above the top of the front sight. In other words, I use the sights, but not in the conventional manner.

This method also allows me to keep the target in full view -- so if someone were reaching for something, I would be able to see what it was before dropping the hammer.

[grizz5675]

of course all the time

[Phil DeGraves]

Use the sights. What SOP 9 said was that only 20% of the officers used their sights. It also said that as a department, only 20% of the rounds fired in combat hit their target. Hmmm. 20% use sights. 20% hit targets. Which 20% do you think it was that hit their targets?
Use the sights!

[Phil DeGraves]

"I was squirming in my seat.....Tom; you didn't survive..... Too much time....
Unaimed fire practice is a must at close range...."

Nonsense. With practice, sighted fire is as fast (and more accurate) than so called "point shooting."

And I can prove it.

[Vern Humphrey]

Massad Ayoob has pointed out that interviewing the survivors of gunfights, there is a big difference between the winners and losers who survived.

Winners usually recall seeing and using the sights. Losers don't.

[jlbraun]

People will often miss a target when shooting from retention at a distance of 3 feet! I remember the first time I tried it. Draw-bangbang... ***??? :scrutiny: No holes in the target at all!

[Geno]

What people recall after a shoot-out is questionable. Even highly trained LEOs can experience extreme memory-creation.

Our Advanced Tactical Shooting instructor told us of one LEO who was involved in a "shooting". He had recently transitioned from revolver to a pistol.

The perp physically attacked the LEO, who defended himself with his firearm. After the attack, as the perp was being loaded into the ambulance, the paramedics noted extreme amounts of blood and were looking for the bullet wounds...couldn't see any.

They asked the LEO where, and how many rounds he had fired into the perp. The LEO responded that he had emptied the magazine into the perp.

An investigation into the case revealed that the officer had pulled his pistol, ejected the magazine and had beaten the perp unconscious with the pistol. During the investigation, by my ATS instructor, the LEO persisted in fact, insisted, that he had fired all of the rounds. The magazine lay on the ground...full. The chambered round lay on the ground, unfired, and simply ejected.

This ATS instructor is still a Sergeant in Southfield PD, so I believe him about this incident. He assured us that this is not at all uncommon. Given the extreme amount of created memory here, I would assume that recalling use of the front sight is not a far strength to assume it to have been "created by the mind's eye."

[Vern Humphrey]

There is no question that people under extreme stress will undergo strange psychological phenomena. But if this officer's experience was typical, it would mean experience is worthless -- since no one would have an accurate memory of what he did under stress!!

There are people who can remember, in great detail, exactly what happened. And when you have two distinct groups of people -- the losers and winners of gunfights -- and their accounts of what they did and remember doing are quite uniform -- then you have valuable data.

[phoglund]

I'll admit to not practicing enough. But when I do get out and practice with my carry handguns I practice with sights, without sights and everything in between and from many positions, supported, unsupported etc. My goal is to become comfortable with the firearm and able to get rounds on target from any situation or hand.

[Geno]

For my part, I practice mostly sight shooting. Frequently placing tape over the sights. Other times I take my carry pistol, a Colt 1911A1 New Agent, that has no sights. :)

I do practice some precision shooting as well, but not near as much. We were taught that sight shooting is for the 7 to 15 yards range.

[SeanSw]

Yes, I practice without using sights every time I make it to the range. With a 9mm or .38 it isn't more than a single magazines or a few cylinders, but that's where the .22 comes in. Using my S&W 617 I'll practice shooting without the sights for hundreds of rounds. Usually anywhere between 10 to 50 paces. Up close my groups don't suffer (Notice I did not say accuracy) but it can be hard to lock on for that first shot further out, and in a self defense scenario you definitely wouldn't want to "walk" your shots into a target.

It's fun and practical practice assuming you know when to use your sights and when not to.

[abrink]

have you considered getting a laser? You can keep an eye on your BG's movements and still know where you're defensive firearm is pointed.

[Phil DeGraves]

"And you should not be taking 20 yards shots. If the BG is that far away, your best bet is to run to cover or to escape."

Most of the time this is true, but there can be exceptions to this. The Bank of America shootout for example. That's why you still need to be able to hit at distance under stress. And if my life depends on it, I want precision shots that will stop the opponent, not some course arrangement that MIGHT hit and leave me with no more ammo.

As far as lasers, try using lasers in Force on Force training. It takes much longer to find the dot than it does to find the sights. The only thing a laser is good for is training to determine flinching or to practice point shooting, or in a confrontation where you can see the BG but can't see your sights, such as shooting from behind a ballistic shield. I'd rather pay the extra money for night sights than for a laser.

[Phil DeGraves]

There is no replacement for good, realistic, relevant and FREQUENT practice with your firearm.There are no magic techniques or gadgets that will replace it.

[Mad Magyar]

Nonsense. With practice, sighted fire is as fast (and more accurate) than so called "point shooting."

And I can prove it. Prove what? Do you know what point shooting is all about?
So-called?:rolleyes: Too many bullseye shooters have this idea they can crossover into area they know little about, limited shooting at close range, and have a closed mind on the subject. I suggest that any CQ shooting from a few feet to 15 feet call for some flexibility based on no set rules of engagement & one's training.
No doubt that sighted fire is advantegeous under most conditions, sometimes it's not possible. I know some shooters that absolutely cannot fire a pistol at any distance w/o the use of 2 hands; a credit to J. Weaver... Why I find this so amusing & sad is that when I used to defend Condition 3 the biggest argument I received was "what if your other hand is incapacitated?"..Well, you can't win for trying.....:)

[GLOOB]

I practice aimed fire, but when working for speed, I see the sights stacked one above the other, and the target about equidistant above the top of the front sight. In other words, I use the sights, but not in the conventional manner.

This method also allows me to keep the target in full view -- so if someone were reaching for something, I would be able to see what it was before dropping the hammer.

+1

I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one doing this. I have been doing this since I was a kid with a BB gun. :) I get my shots off much quicker with this sight picture without losing much precision. I will try to stretch to see how far I can take this and still remain accurate, to the point I'm almost quasi-hipshooting. I will also experiment with shooting slightly from the left or right. Then, when I go for a quick shot, instead of just one correct sight picture, I have a continuum of correct sight pictures. I imagine my mind subconsciously sorts through these and gives me a "green light" quicker than when trying to get that perfect 3-dot picture.

[2ndamd]

You guys realize that Ed McGivern and Bill Jordan (arguably two of the fastest shots) did not use sights?

Mas Ayoob even recounts when he held a 1911 pistol in his hand and cocked. All Mas had to do was pull the trigger. Bill jordan drew his 4" revolver and sqeezed the trigger faster than Mas could pull the trigger..........twice.

[PzGren]

I did it once with a Glock 26. Before changing over to new night sights, I took the sights completely off:D.
I shot it for accuracy at about 10 yards on a paper plate and had all shots on. It was slower than with sights but that might have been because it felt pretty unusual.
At 7 yards double tapping there was less of a difference to shooting with sights using a flash sight picture..

[ruger45]

yes, all the time. If your not you should be.

[Mikhail Konovalov]

I practice shooting sans sights whenever the range starts to get dark and my little hump and bump GI 1911 sights disappear.

In all seriousness, though, I practice instinctive shooting with my Jericho all the time, and this is probably the most effective method I have come across for me. The sights are used... sort of.

A benefit of high-visability sights is that they can be used without conciously looking at them. I am focused completely on the target, and firing without re-acquiring the sights (or blinking, for that matter), and somehow I sub-conciously line up the out of focus sights and end up shooting fairly tight groups (For me, anyway.)

That's not the only way I shoot by any stretch, but that's about as close to point-shooting as my range will allow.

I don't believe this is the best technique for everyone, but I find it quite effective at medium range. Medium range lying somewhere between "You have room to escape" and "Stick it up his nose".