Case Lubrication


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moosehunt
March 5, 2008, 02:11 AM
OK gents. I've been at this reloading stuff for neigh on 45 years, but I have failed to satisfactorily solve one issue--lubing of case necks when neck sizing. Of course it is the inside that is the issue. I've tried all sorts of approaches, but none that I feel real satisfied with. I'd sure like to hear what some of you are doing. Oils/greases/waxes all cause the powder to stick in the neck to some degree, and the dry lubes I've tried just don't get in there very well. There has to be a good, efficient way. Help?

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dakotasin
March 5, 2008, 02:27 AM
tumble after sizing but before loading.

ReloaderFred
March 5, 2008, 02:51 AM
What dakotasin said, plus polish the expander to make sizing easier.

Hope this helps.

Fred

USSR
March 5, 2008, 08:21 AM
OK gents. I've been at this reloading stuff for neigh on 45 years, but I have failed to satisfactorily solve one issue--lubing of case necks when neck sizing. Of course it is the inside that is the issue. I've tried all sorts of approaches, but none that I feel real satisfied with. I'd sure like to hear what some of you are doing. Oils/greases/waxes all cause the powder to stick in the neck to some degree, and the dry lubes I've tried just don't get in there very well. There has to be a good, efficient way. Help?

moosehunt,

The solution is to not use a lube on the inside or outside of your necks. Let me explain. You get yourself a set of Redding bushing necksizing dies, remove the decapper and expander ball (remove your spent primers with a Universal Decapping die), and get yourself the proper size TiN bushing. In addition to not having to use any lube whatsoever, you are also working your brass much, much less. It's a win/win situation.

Don

layusn1
March 5, 2008, 09:33 AM
For the inside of the case necks I just use Imperial Sizing die wax. Just put a little dab on my finger and run the case mouth against it at an angle so the inside of the case mouth grabs it. A little dab will do ya and a tiny tin lasts a LOOOONG time. It is possibly a little slower than other methods but it works really well. Replacing your dies is another option I suppose....the Bushing dies, or if I understand correctly the Dillon carbide rifle dies do not require lubing the inside of the case but you sure do pay a pretty penny for them. Hope that helps.

John4me05
March 5, 2008, 09:55 AM
I use the RCBS case slick... Roll the batch across the lube pad and then when the batch is lubed roll a neck brush on the pad and brush in and out 1 stroke on the neck.. Then retumble for 20 minutes or so to remove the residue... or tumble a few hours to polish them

ranger335v
March 5, 2008, 10:20 AM
Bushing dies are, IMHO, the least desirable "solution" for all but BR shooters. Why? 'Cause our case necks vary in thickness. That means that when sized in a die without an expander they inside diameters also vary, which changes the bullet tension randomly.

Perhaps the ideal solution would be to use a body die AND a Lee Collet Neck Sizer. The Lee die does not need lube at all and it works the necks only the amount needed as it sizes down to a consistant inside diameter.

TooTaxed
March 5, 2008, 10:40 AM
I use an un-inked rectangular stamp pad for my full-length case sizing, with a small amount of regular gun oil on it...lay a bunch of cases on it, give a quick one-cartridge roll with the flat of my hand, and go to resizing...nary a stuck case.

For neck sizing, I use the same pad, but simply push the case mouth down onto it. Gets just enough oil for the sizing, but not enough to cause powder problems.

moosehunt
March 5, 2008, 12:50 PM
Thanks for the input. As to Redding bushing dies, I'll be honest, I can't afford 13 new sets of dies! I've tried the Imperial wax method exactly as described, and using a pad of lube touching the ends. These both work from the lubing point, but invariably, grains of powder stick to the lube residue inside the case neck. Maybeso tumbling is a viable answer, but sooooo much hassle and time consuming. Of course I can address the whole issue by incorporating an extra "cleaning" step, but that extra step is what I'd like to eliminate. I'm still listening, guys!!!

Jenrick
March 5, 2008, 03:19 PM
I just keep a toothpick handy to poke down the occasional errant piece of powder that sticks to the lube. As far as lube goes I use (yeah go ahead and laugh), lube. Actual store bought "Personal Lubricant," it's water soluble, the only other things in it are basically sugar so it dries to a kinda gooey film that doesn't rust anything and doesn't deactivate primers or powders. A 4 oz bottle is about $1 and will probably last me a decade. It can be thinned to spray or you can just use your fingers and dab it on. Little goes a long way.

I just size, let cases dry over night and then load. If I don't want to go the toothpick route, a quick swipe around the case neck with a cotton swab cleans it out.

-Jenrick

Otto
March 5, 2008, 03:42 PM
Carbide expanders is the way to go.
They are made for Hornady, RCBS and Redding.
In most cases, it eliminates the need for inside-neck lubrication.

ADKWOODSMAN
March 5, 2008, 05:18 PM
White mica in a 1/2 inch long pill container or something the size of a 35 mm film canister. Put the neck end of the case in the mica to the bottom of the neck, tap the case with your finger so the excess falls out and you are lubed.

Now run the case into the die and sixe.

USSR
March 5, 2008, 07:38 PM
...the least desirable "solution" for all but BR shooters. Why? 'Cause our case necks vary in thickness. That means that when sized in a die without an expander they inside diameters also vary, which changes the bullet tension randomly.

That's just plain bunk. If I had varying amounts of neck tension, it would surely show up at the 1,000 yards I shoot;it does not. Seating the bullet in the neck does exactly what any mandrel or expander ball does: forces any variation in inside diameter to the outside. This is empirical data, not something gleaned from the internet.

Don

moosehunt
March 6, 2008, 01:07 AM
More thanks. The white mica is the one I have settlled on for quite a while. I just was hoping for a method that made it unnecessary to wipe the exterior after sizing, which of course you have to do with the mica. But it works.

I'll answer before someone calls me lazy--yes, you're basically right, though I like to call it being efficient! I was hoping to stumble on to a more efficient method.

moosehunt
March 6, 2008, 01:08 AM
More thanks. The white mica is the one I have settlled on for quite a while. I just was hoping for a method that made it unnecessary to wipe the exterior after sizing, which of course you have to do with the mica. But it works.

I'll answer before someone calls me lazy--yes, you're basically right, though I like to call it being efficient! I was hoping to stumble on to a more efficient method.

Me thinks this newly installed system has it's problems, eh. Sorry for the double--I only entered it once.

snuffy
March 6, 2008, 01:22 AM
Much to do about nothing. So what if a couple of chunks of powder adhere to the inside of the neck? Do you think it will stay there? The bullet will push it down into the powder charge.

As long as the lube used is powder/primer safe, it won't hurt a thing. Thats why I use RCBS case slick spray lube. It won't de-activate primers or affect powder, so leave it there.

moosehunt
March 6, 2008, 01:50 AM
Basically true, Mr. Snuffy, but I have had several of those grains spill out when I snached 'em out of the block to put in the bullet. Still probably not a big deal, but it just doesn't sit well with me esthetically (either of the two issues).

Hoosier Reloader
March 6, 2008, 06:42 PM
I use Hornady One Shot spray lube.

mc223
March 6, 2008, 07:01 PM
Just for the purpose of example:

6 kernals of H4895 = .01 grain.

I would not worry much if a few kernals fell out. I doubt seriously if yoou would notice it downrange either.

kennedy
March 6, 2008, 09:55 PM
I use a lee collet neck sizing die in .308 and don`t lube, never had any problems

jenrob
March 7, 2008, 12:15 AM
...the least desirable "solution" for all but BR shooters. Why? 'Cause our case necks vary in thickness. That means that when sized in a die without an expander they inside diameters also vary, which changes the bullet tension randomly.

That's just plain bunk. If I had varying amounts of neck tension, it would surely show up at the 1,000 yards I shoot;it does not. Seating the bullet in the neck does exactly what any mandrel or expander ball does: forces any variation in inside diameter to the outside. This is empirical data, not something gleaned from the internet.
I have to agree and disagree with both of these.

Bushing dies are great if you turn the necks or ream the necks.

I wouldn't say they are just for BR shooting, but would say that if you take a ball mic and check the neck thickness on 10 cases you will probably come up with 5 different measurements if not more.

This will cause different neck tension as the bushing die has no expander to push the difference back out.

Now back on the lube I use mica with neck brushes on a forster case neck lubricator. It's nice as the excess drops back into the pad.

Redding (Imperial) has a new deal out this year that has small ceramic media balls that you put you mica into then roll the neck in the media.

Haven't tried it but looks like it might be on my bench before long.

I have also started buying carbide expanders one at a time with each order but still use the mica with them (not needed).

Bullet
March 7, 2008, 01:43 AM
You could try this -

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=RECLCTCL&item=NLK&type=store


.

Bullet
March 7, 2008, 05:32 AM
USSR
You get yourself a set of Redding bushing necksizing dies, remove the decapper and expander ball (remove your spent primers with a Universal Decapping die), and get yourself the proper size TiN bushing. In addition to not having to use any lube whatsoever, you are also working your brass much, much less. It's a win/win situation.

ranger335v
Bushing dies are, IMHO, the least desirable "solution" for all but BR shooters. Why? 'Cause our case necks vary in thickness. That means that when sized in a die without an expander they inside diameters also vary, which changes the bullet tension randomly.

Perhaps the ideal solution would be to use a body die AND a Lee Collet Neck Sizer. The Lee die does not need lube at all and it works the necks only the amount needed as it sizes down to a consistant inside diameter.

USSR
That's just plain bunk. If I had varying amounts of neck tension, it would surely show up at the 1,000 yards I shoot;it does not. Seating the bullet in the neck does exactly what any mandrel or expander ball does: forces any variation in inside diameter to the outside. This is empirical data, not something gleaned from the internet.

jenrob
I have to agree and disagree with both of these.

Bushing dies are great if you turn the necks or ream the necks.

I wouldn't say they are just for BR shooting, but would say that if you take a ball mic and check the neck thickness on 10 cases you will probably come up with 5 different measurements if not more.

This will cause different neck tension as the bushing die has no expander to push the difference back out.

I’ve wondered about case neck tension and turning necks and bushing dies, but never knew the answer for sure. Seems there are different views so I asked here -

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50184


.

stubbicatt
March 7, 2008, 09:08 AM
I dissolve a tube of Lee case lube in a water iso alcohol mix in a ration of about 1 to 7. Put it in a spray atomizer bottle. Squirt a few pumps into a ziplock freezer bag, throw in cases, let them roll around awhile in there, and quite a bit gets in the neck.

Spread the cases out on a towel and let them dry. I get no expander ball squeek at all. This is because it is a dry lube with no tack or anything. Powder doesn't bridge in the necks or anything. You can either tumble the cases afterwards, or leave the lube on the cases. They shoot equally well.

Best of all, you can lube up a bunch of cases and store them indefinitely in this condition, ready to go whenever you are. No lint, dirt, or anything sticks to them.

moosehunt
March 7, 2008, 12:51 PM
That Sinclair dealiobob sounds interesting. The moly, I savvy, but I don't savvy the function of the stainless balls (shot). And I am curious about the statement "good for loading moly bullets" (paraphrased). What has that got to do with lubing case necks for sizing? Anyone out there tried one?

The Lee lube approach doesn't sound too bad, but I'm hoping, praying for ease, simplicity, efficiency. When I get a chance to load, I like to sit down with 50 or a hundred cases and when I get up, have that many loaded rounds, as opposed to doing part today, then waiting for them to dry or whatever. Obviously, when major processes, such as annealling, are in the picture, it doesn't all happen at once.

Grizzly Adams
March 7, 2008, 03:34 PM
I take a Skoal case and pour a container of dry graphite into it and dip just the tip of the case mouth into the graphite and then bump the case against the edge of my bench to knock any excess off and your ready to size.

Eb1
March 7, 2008, 04:04 PM
I am a novice, and new. I use a Lee Loader, and it neck sizes, but I do not have need to lube the case. I am not high jacking, but does the OP really need to lube for neck sizing? This in my answer/question to him.

moosehunt
March 7, 2008, 04:13 PM
Unless you have a carbide expander plug, which isn't available (to my knowledge) in all calibers, then without lube, the force to pull the expander plug will stretch the neck and shoulder, or occasionally worse. Perhaps you're using a collet sizer?

Eb1
March 7, 2008, 04:22 PM
Moosehunt,
If your last response was to me. I do not know if it is a carbide expander. It is the 30-30 lee loader (the one you hammer). I have not had an issue.
This is why I was asking the if the OP even needed to lube the case.
Granted they have a ton of calibers. I will back out and learn some more.

Bullet
March 7, 2008, 10:45 PM
moosehunt

I have used the Sinclair moly for neck sizing. The stainless balls are in a container with some moly. You shake the container and the balls get coated with moly. There are enough balls in the container to be of enough depth that when you push a case into the container the balls go into and around the neck of the case distributing moly both inside and out of the case neck. Itís real easy, just push a case into the balls and give it a little turn and itís lubed ready to size. Works good. You could call Sinclair to answer any question you have.

moosehunt
March 8, 2008, 02:03 AM
Thank you, Bullet. For the past 40 of my 45 years of loading, I've been looking for a "better" neck lube. Everything brought forth here is good, and I've tried virtually all of them before at one time or another. This Sinclair deal may be what I'm looking for. Being from Sinclair, it's not surprising. Is this thing new, or is it something I've overlooked?

I wonder why it can't be shipped by air? Not that it matters to me, just curious. I wouldn't think stainless balls or moly would present a hazard. Is there something explosive or highly flammable about moly?

Bullet
March 8, 2008, 03:31 AM
Is this thing new, or is it something I've overlooked?


It’s not new but as my signature line says (Half the time I don't even know what day it is). Since you’ve tried virtually all of them before at one time or another please post how you like the moly lube if you purchase some. I don't know why it can't be shipped by air.
I don’t use moly anymore. I bought a bushing necksizing die that doesn’t require lube. I also have Carbide expanders.


.

dagger dog
March 8, 2008, 01:35 PM
Hornady makes an aerosol case lube called ONE SHOT. When you get ready to size I tilt the block where it sprays into the case necks you have to do it from two angles to get both sides of the insides of the case necks. This stuff drys very well and leaves little or no moisture. Try some!

moosehunt
March 8, 2008, 02:44 PM
I've done decided that I'm going to get it, Bullet. Don't know when I'll get a chance to get on it, but I will let you know what I think of it.

Maybeso it's just me, but I don't like those sprays (except for FL sizing) cause they get crap all over hell! I'm thinking Bullet may have pointed me toward my valhala!

rogn
March 8, 2008, 02:59 PM
Ive had the best luck with Lee's case lube, its a water soluble wax and it dries to non sticky film. I use my fingers to lube the cases and run a Qtip with th lube into the necks. Its an exelent(sp) lube and wont give you a powder grabbing film unless you run the case from the sizer to the powder measure. I find it takes less effort to size cases with this lube than most others.

Bullet
March 8, 2008, 09:31 PM
moosehunt
Its been awhile since I used the moly. I reread your posts and you said -

The white mica is the one I have settlled on for quite a while. I just was hoping for a method that made it unnecessary to wipe the exterior after sizing, which of course you have to do with the mica.

You will probably have to wipe when using moly too. I’m not sure moly would be better than the white mica.

moosehunt
March 9, 2008, 03:16 AM
I'd contemplated about that, Bullet. If so, not much gain over mica.

What a lot of guys are missing, I think, is that the lube has to get down to the base of the neck, inside. The expander plug doesn't nomally touch on the up stroke, then the neck is sized down and the plug pulls through with tension. Even with mica or graphite, it seems that the expander picks it up and carries it. Check the expander after a few cases and you'll find a big dose being carried on top of the plug, and the lubrication is not really that great. From the standpoint of pure lubrication, I have found that the greases and waxes do best, but you are left with residual (I guess that's why it works) that grabs powder granules. Plus you have to wipe the outside. As earlier mentioned, maybeso those sticking granules don't hurt, but it sure doesn't sit good with me. Maybeso I'm reaching for the moon, but I've tried everything but the moly and getting 13 new Redding neck collet dies. The latter is not very high on my desirables list. Economics, you understand.

It is surprisingly interesting how much discussion this rather minor topic has ginned up. I love it!!!

stubbicatt
March 9, 2008, 11:01 AM
Moosehunt: The time factor in using the Lee lube is minimal if you mix your solvent 50/50 tap water and iso alcohol. the "carrier" or "solvent" portion of the lube evaporates in 15 minutes or less, leaving you dry, ready to load, cases. Even better, if you want to lube up a whole lot, the process takes 10 minutes to lube up 1,500 223 cases, which you can then store for the future.

Don't have to tumble them afterwards in order to shoot them. The lube inside the neck is completely dry, with no tack, and no static to attract or bridge your powder kernels.

So do whatever you want, make several steps, lubing the body, powdering the necks, standing on your head wearing wolfsbane cuffs and collars, while barking at the moon, applying moly, graphite, or anything your heart desires. Really. I've done all of these things (except the wolfsbane). But since I started with the dissolved Lee case lube and freezer bag approach, I haven't stuck a case, and have had ZERO expander ball issues.

Best of all it is $2.00 in product to lube 10,000 cases.

There seems to be a culture of disdain with respect to Lee products, and some of their products are deserving of this. But sincerely, try the Lee case lube and see for yourself if I've led you astray.

jcwit
March 9, 2008, 12:46 PM
I deprime by hand with punch and rubber hammer. I then neck size prime load and shoot, doing this 5 rds at a time when shooting from the bench. I NEVER lube my cases and have cases with over 50 reloadings through them. Why do you need to lube inside the case necks? Does it make the bullet slide out easier? Just kidding. BTY using this method in .223 I shoot .010 ctc at 100 yds 5rd. groups.

WayneConrad
March 9, 2008, 12:50 PM
Tumble

Lube

Size

Tumble again to get rid of lube

Prime, Charge, etc...

cpttango30
March 9, 2008, 02:12 PM
I have tried
RCBS Case Slick: good but, sticky nasty and gooy.

Hoenady One Shot: Good works but you have to use a lot.

Midway USA Spray Lube: Great spray lube. For lube spray This is the best stuff out there. It lubs well drys completely. Powder does not stick to it and cost less that Hornady.

I have one load block that I spray them in. I spray from all four sides and on a 45 * angle from the top to get some in the case neck. I have found if I take a good Q-tip I can soak it with the spray and get 10 to 15 inside necks lubed.

I do think I might switch to the Imperial Sizing wax.

NEVER EVER clean your dies them use if you are using spray lube. I always give them a shot in the sizing die of the case lube. I made the mistake of cleaning out my 223 Hornady die once Thank god hornady sent me a new decaping pin for free. Even after I told them I used it to drive the case out of the die. They young lady on the phone chuckled when I said I will pay for the parts seeing as it was my own dump ares fault for doing what I did. She said that is ok we will still ship you new parts for free.

Bullet
March 9, 2008, 02:21 PM
jcwit
BTY using this method in .223 I shoot .010 ctc at 100 yds 5rd. groups.

WOW, thatís a world record isnít it.

jcwit
March 9, 2008, 07:33 PM
Not quite

jcwit
March 9, 2008, 07:35 PM
also thats for group not for score

Bullet
March 9, 2008, 10:03 PM
And I thought .100 was good.

jcwit
March 9, 2008, 10:09 PM
It is

moosehunt
March 10, 2008, 03:00 AM
jcwit--Yes, that's a great procedure, but you are doing a different type of loading for a different purpose. I suspect that you know that when you use dies for production shooting, you have a bit more brass movement involved. I may try the Lee stuff. Does it build up on the outside with repeated uses? I only FL size about every 7th loading, thus I don't need any lube on the outside of the case. But if it doesn't build up, that may be a good approach. Oh, what's the "wolfsbane" deal? You didn't try that one--maybeso I will.

I don't tumble but at about the 7th loading, which is generally when I anneal the necks--and I ain't going to start! Pretty doesn't mean squawt to me. Nothing wrong with it, I just consider it an unnecessary beauty step.

USSR
March 10, 2008, 09:18 AM
Keep practicing, jcwit, all mine go into .005".:rolleyes:

Don

jcwit
March 10, 2008, 10:14 AM
Now that would be a new record.

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