[Sylvan-Forge]

for nonlicensed folk

If this has been posted before, please direct me and delete this thread.

Ok, 1st, I am NOT a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.
This IS an academic exersize only. Proceed at your own risk.
Blah, blah, blah.


The BATFE website says:


(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.
[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]


(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b7



Well, let's just take a look then, shall we..
:scrutiny:


TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 83 § 1715
Firearms as nonmailable; regulations

Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable and shall not be deposited in or carried by the mails or delivered by any officer or employee of the Postal Service. Such articles may be conveyed in the mails, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe, for use in connection with their official duty, to officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps; to officers of the National Guard or Militia of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District; to officers of the United States or of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitments; to employees of the Postal Service; to officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States; and to watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District. Such articles also may be conveyed in the mails to manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein in customary trade shipments, including such articles for repairs or replacement of parts, from one to the other, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe. [see post #3]

Whoever knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail according to the direction thereon, or at any place to which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any pistol, revolver, or firearm declared nonmailable by this section, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.



TITLE 27 CFR CHAPTER II
PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION
§ 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and

(b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.


§ 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.
(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.
(b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

(c) No common or contract carrier shall transport or deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or receipt thereof would be in violation of any provision of this part: Provided, however, That the provisions of this paragraph shall not apply in respect to the transportation of firearms or ammunition in in-bond shipment under Customs laws and regulations.

(d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other container in which there is a firearm: Provided, That this paragraph shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger who places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the trip.

[Sylvan-Forge]

TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 44 § 922
Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—

(2) for any importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed under the provisions of this chapter to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, except that—
(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph
(A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,
(B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and
(C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;


(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

[Sylvan-Forge]

Ok,

The US Postal Service on mailing firearms:
http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_003.html#NL508_16

a. Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as "handguns") are nonmailable in the domestic mail, except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM 601.11.1.

b. The disassembled parts of a handgun or other type of nonmailable firearm that can be readily reassembled as a weapon are nonmailable, except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM 601.11.1 or 601.11.2.

c. Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are generally permitted, as specified in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM 601.11.2.

d. Unloaded rifles and shotguns may be mailed if the mailer fully complies with the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618) and 18 USC 921. The mailer may be required to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not excluded from mailing because of the restrictions in 432.2 b and c.

<snip>

Well, the Postal Service "shall prescribe", and so they have, according to the above and their website.

[Sylvan-Forge]

Summary ......... later ... will add more

...
...


NO HANDGUNS CAN BE SHIPPED VIA USPS,
contrary to a couple recent rumors.
Though I can see why folks might believe such.



UPS policy
http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/res.../firearms.html

FedEx policy
http://www.fedex.com/us/services/terms/us.html#firearms

DHL policy
DHL will not ship firearms
http://wap.dhl.com/wrd/commod/commod.html


I'll flesh out the current policies a bit later.

[ryanl]

Maybe not by individuals, but dealers can and do. I have been standing in my dealers place when the postman dropped off priority mail boxes containing handguns, one of them being for me from an out of state dealer. Ive also dropped off handguns to him to be shipped which he sent USPS priority mail.

[ryanl]

I believe the Post Office's Explorer site has more info on this

[Sylvan-Forge]

Yep, tis true.

I'm keeping this focused on us regular folk.
I need to put something up-top stating as much.

[ryanl]

Well then, I agree, individuals mailing handguns through the postal service is a BAD IDEA

[NGIB]

As I understand it (for handguns as that's all I deal with):

An FFL can use USPS for mailing guns to and fro (mine does for me at $15).

We mere mortals must use UPS/FEDEX overnight to send guns to and fro.

The receiver (with the serial #) is considered the firearm. You could take one apart and mail the parts EXCEPT the receiver.

If you send your gun in to the "manufacturer" for service (you have to overnight with UPS/FEDEX, FFL can mail), they can ship it directly to you as there's no change in ownership.

I was never inclined to read a bunch of legaleze so the above is the rules I live by when shipping guns. I know folks can and do skirt these issues; however, I've never been a big fan of prison so I choose to be safe not sorry...

[xjchief]

Did a search and came up empty so looking for guidance on moving...

I'm shipping all my belongings in one 40 foot shipping container. Do I have to do anything special, notification?, if I just leave them in my gun safe and put them in a shipping container along with all my other household stuff? Also, I have a bunch of ammo I'd like to take with me. What's the best way to get it moved as well? My container is going by land and boat....

[American_Pit_Bull]

I see you didn't point out the inaccuracy of the ATF FAQ, in regards to the notification requirement.... That is usually a point of confusion.

Many think that the "overnight requirement" is required by law, but that is not the case. It, like the notification requirement, is just FedEX and UPS policy.

[hanno]

An FFL can use USPS for mailing guns to and fro (mine does for me at $15).

I understand what you are saying but it is better worded to say - dealers and manufacturers can send handguns to and from each other via USPS. C&R license holders are FFLs and they cannot use USPS.

[akodo]

A couple of questions.

If you break a US Postal Service RULE, who comes after you? who is their enforcment branch?

If I break a UPS "RULE" I am simply breaking company policy. While I might not be able to claim my goods, or get them to pay insurance on lost goods, I face no criminal charges. USPS is of course governmental, but is there a distinction between USPS RULES and LAWS?

Is USPS part of the legislative branch? Can they create law by creating policy? Who exactly creates postal law/policy?

[hanno]

If you break a US Postal Service RULE, who comes after you? who is their enforcment branch?

It is not a simply a "RULE", it is federal law. Violation is a felony.

"Section 1715.
Firearms as nonmailable; regulations Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable and shall not be deposited in or carried by the mail or delivered by any officer or employee of the Postal Service. Such articles may be conveyed in the mail, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe, for use in connection with their official duty, to officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps; to officers of the National Guard or militia of a state, territory, commonwealth, possession, or district; to officers of the United States or of a state, territory, or district whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitments; to employees of the Postal Service; to officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States; and to watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a state, territory, commonwealth, possession, or district. Such articles also may be conveyed in the mail to manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein in customary trade shipments, including such articles for repairs or replacement of parts, from one to the other, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe. Whoever knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail according to the direction thereon, or at any place to which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any pistol, revolver, or firearm declared nonmailable by this section, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
18 U.S.C. 1715"

Short version - you are forbidden to mail a handgun unless you meet one of the very limited exceptions in the statute or "under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe." The USPS regulations are set out in the Domestic Mail Manual. You mail a handgun in vioaltion of the DMM, you have violated a federal statute and can expect a visit from the FBI.

[Hkmp5sd]

I'm shipping all my belongings in one 40 foot shipping container. Do I have to do anything special, notification?

You are shipping them to yourself, so you are legal in that aspect. Technically, you must inform the carrier there are firearms being shipped in the container.

[Sylvan-Forge]

To summarize:

(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.
[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]


(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]



27 CFR § 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.
(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped

So, I take this to mean there is no (legal) need to notify the carrier if you are shipping a firearm to a dealer, manufacturer, or licensed collector interstate (outside of your state).






Carrier Policy Update:
Contrary to UPS stated policy, I have been told by two seperate supervisors and one customer center manager as well as an email response from corporate, that handguns cannot be shipped intrastate (within the state) between residents, even though this is in accordance with federal and (my) state's laws. I asked them via email to clarify this mess and please update their website thusly.

http://www.ups.com/media/en/terms_service_12312007.pdf

Bleh .. the .pdf says yes, so do two other UPS pages, but yet they say no ... jeez.

FedEx says no to intrastate, DHL won't touch firearms at all.


I call all this obstruction to intrastate commerce (if there is such a thing), thanks all to 1715.

A nonlicensed resident of a state should be able to send to another nonlicensed resident of the same state, but no common carrier will do it.

So ... I've asked my local rep to sponser a bill to amend 1715, in order to allow us to send handguns intrastate via the US postal service.

I'll let y'all know what happens when I get a response.

[wally]

FedEX demands you overnight handguns which is a rip off (~$50) but last time I needed to return one I went there about 3:30PM on a Friday, after their overnight deadline for Saturday delivery.

Either they couldn't charge me for overnight delivery they could not gaurentee, or the counter person made a mistake and let me ship it third day for $15. Gun was at the manufacturer's on Monday.

Give it a try!

--wally.

[akodo]

It is not a simply a "RULE", it is federal law. Violation is a felony.

I say again, who wrote the law? Where is the line between US Postal Service setting up regulations and laws? Was it an act of congress that dictated handguns could not be mailed except by FFLers?

[hanno]

I say again, who wrote the law? Where is the line between US Postal Service setting up regulations and laws? Was it an act of congress that dictated handguns could not be mailed except by FFLers?

Federal laws are passed by Congress and signed by the President. The statute cited above is a law, passed by Congress and signed by the President. The statute prohibits mailing handguns with limited exceptions. For example, one exception is made for dealers and manufacturers who can mail handguns between themselves - "Such articles also may be conveyed in the mail to manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein in customary trade shipments, including such articles for repairs or replacement of parts, from one to the other, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe."
The statute itself says that dealers and manufacturers can mail handguns between themselves and leaves it to the USPS to prescribe regulations to work out the details.

Now if you want to know who specifically authored this particular law way back when, I suggest you do a search for the legislative history of this statute.

If you want to know how federal regulations are made and incorporated into federal law, I suggest a good course in admin law. I'm not being flippant, understanding this subject took me the best part of a summer.

Look at it this way - Congress passed a law saying that the mail cannot be used for handguns. In the statute, Congress carved out a limited number of exceptions to this prohibition. Then Congress left it to the USPS to work out the everyday details of how to carry out the Congressional mandate.

[Desertscout]

So, I take this to mean there is no (legal) need to notify the carrier if you are shipping a firearm to a dealer, manufacturer, or licensed collector interstate (outside of your state).

Yes, there is. The law doesn't say that you have to ship overnight but it DOES say that you must notify the shipper that you are shipping a firearm. When you tell them, they will make you ship it overnight. It's a scam but that's the way it is.

[chefman]

a long gun last month to a permitted resident of Nev. I,a resident of AL, was refused by USPS, UPS, and Fedex and was told by my local PO that I cannot ship guns through the mail, long or handgun, unless I was FFL. I am legally premitted to carry as well as the recipient. I called BATF in Atlanta and was told that I could. Correct me if I am wrong here but the isn't the USPS a company separate from the US government and therefore operate according to "company policy"? Frustrated in Alabama.

[Desertscout]

Your permit means absolutely nothing when you're talking about shipping guns.

You cannot ship ANY firearm across state lines without going through an FFL unless you are shipping it to yourself. If you ship it to yourself and someone else opens it and you get caught, it's Federal felony.
Your post office is wrong though. IF you were shipping to an FFL, it would be perfectly legal for you to ship a long gun via U.S. Mail. Sometimes you just have to over the counter people's head.

[chefman]

thanks for responding so quickly. I was trying to ship to an FFL and I got the counter person to call their super who in turn called their immediate super,whoever that was, and I was turned down. My local dealer who eventually shipped it for me was as curious as I was and just chalked it up as small town ignorance.

[Sylvan-Forge]

Desertscout,

No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier


I'm still seeing that one can ship out of state to a dealer without notifying the carrier that the package contains a firearm.

[nalioth]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=323555

[Sylvan-Forge]

USPS is a federal government entity.

UPS is a corporation.

[Rob62]

Lots of very good information with references cited here.

As some have pointed out alreday, the biggest joker in the deck when trying to ship a firearm will be the counter clerk at whatever service you use.

USPS, UPS, FedEx, whatever, all have counter clerks that are confused when shipping firearms. Its up to the shipper to know the law and company policies, and have references handi to make sure your firearm is accepted for shipping/mailing.

[Gator]

I'm still seeing that one can ship out of state to a dealer without notifying the carrier that the package contains a firearm.

Correct, but not notifying them violates the carriers policy and may lead to any insurance claim being denied.

Its up to the shipper to know the law and company policies, and have references handi to make sure your firearm is accepted for shipping/mailing.

Yep. I always take a copy of the carriers policy with me when shipping, and I have needed them more than once. :rolleyes:

[MAKOwner]

Just use a online FedEx account to create a shipment, pay, print a label, and go. Then all you do is drop off the package at a FedEx hub. You can list the contents in the shipment form you're filling out if you wish, no one will check it and it doesn't get printed on the outside of the box. No questions asked when I've done that, literally just say "hello" and plop down the package which is promptly carted off for sorting/shipping. Couldn't be much easier. UPS probably has something similar for creating your own shipments and labels and paying online too.

[Sylvan-Forge]

Well, here's the canned response to my email asking my rep if he would consider sponsoring/writing a bill to amend USC Title 18 §1715, to allow intrastate mailing (USPS) of handguns between nonlicensed individuals.

Dated 3/11/2008:
Thank you for contacting my office. I appreciate your opinion and will send you a response as soon as possible. In the meantime, please feel free to call my office should you need more immediate assistance.

Sincerely,
Connie Mack
Member of Congress, FL-14



Here's the letter I received in the regular mail.
Dated 3/18/2008:
Dear Mr.

Thank you for contacting me to express your opinion regarding the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution. I appreciate your taking the time to share your thoughts with me on this matter.

The Second Amendment guarantees that responsible individual citizens will always be able to freely own a firearm and have the ability to protect themselves, their families, and their property. I am, and always will be, a strong and consistent defender of the Second Amendment and our right to bear arms.

You may be interested to learn that I have added my name as a cosponsor to the District of Columbia Personal Protection Act (H.R. 1288) which would restore the Second Amendment rights of citizens in Washington, D.C., as well as the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (H.R. 800) which would stop frivolous lawsuits from being brought against gun manufacturers. As a champion for freedom and security, you can be sure that I will continue to stand firm in defense of this right.

Again, I want to thank you for taking the time to contact me. Please feel free to contact me if I can be of any further assistance. I also invite you to visit my website at mack.house.gov for additional information on issues facing Congress.

Sincerely,
Connie Mack
Member of Congress


Another canned response...
[Yawn]
Time to get on the phone.


.

[Sylvan-Forge]

Update to provide workable UPS links (the 1st UPS one appears to be broken):


UPS Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms:
http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/prepare/guidelines/firearms.html

UPS Shipping Firearms Including Handguns:
http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/service/terms/firearms.html

UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service:
http://www.ups.com/using/services/details/terms.html



Note that the Terms (.pdf) do not state one must verbally notify.


.

[Sylvan-Forge]

Update to provide links to the applicable laws:


USC TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 83—POSTAL SERVICE 01/02/2006
§ 1715
http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C83.txt
If using MS Internet Explorer: Click Edit, then find, then type: 1715


CFR TITLE 27 CHAPTER II SUBCHAPTER B PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION 03/26/2008
§ 487.30 and § 487.31
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title27/27cfr478_main_02.tpl


USC TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 44—FIREARMS 01/03/2005
§ 922
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC922


.

[American_Pit_Bull]

Posted by Sylvan-Forge:
Note that the Terms do not state one must verbally notify.
That's interesting...

It is referenced in the policy though, but only as if it is paraphrased. That could be due to the well known error in the ATF FAQ, that stated that you must inform the shipper.
http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/res.../firearms.html
When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk.

[Sylvan-Forge]

Aye, they direct you to that webpage that then states that you must notify for handguns..

The .pdf, entitled:
UPS TARIFF/TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE
FOR SMALL PACKAGE SHIPMENTS IN THE UNITED STATES
Effective December 31, 2007

J. Firearms and Ammunition
UPS accepts packages containing firearms, as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the
United States Code, from and between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers and
licensed collectors, as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code, law enforcement agencies,
from and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law, and
when such shipment complies with all federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient and
package. The shipper must use Delivery Confirmation Adult Signature Required service for each package
containing a firearm, including handguns. UPS, in its sole discretion, may require the shipper to select a UPS
Next Day Air Service for any package containing a firearm. Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921, will be
accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air Services. Firearms, including handguns, will not be
accepted for transportation via UPS Drop Boxes, Internet Shipping, in response to a request for On-Call
Pickup Service, or when presented for shipment at locations of The UPS Store or any Third Party Retailer.
Small arms ammunition, as defined in 49 C.F.R. § 173.59, will be transported only when packaged and
labeled in compliance with 49 C.F.R. § 172. Firearm parts, which do not constitute firearms as defined under
federal law, including without limitation Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States
Code, and which otherwise comply with federal, state, and local law, will be accepted for transportation. UPS
Returns Services are not available for packages containing firearms. Firearms, including handguns, and
firearm parts are not accepted for shipment internationally. For more information, access
http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/service/terms/firearms.html, or contact UPS.


If you do not notify verbally, as long as you are otherwise in accordance with the law, the most you would be breaking is UPS corporate policy, but, possibly forfeiting your insurance due to loss or damage.

[AEA]

I am in Texas and I inquired yesterday (by phone calls) to both UPS and FedEx Local HUBS about me (an individual) shipping a pistol to another individual in Texas.

Both of their replies were that I could not do it with them unless I was a Licensed FFL, and all the other BS........

I informed BOTH of them that is not what the ATF Says. They BOTH said "I know, but it is our company policy".

So, according to this, we as individuals can no longer ship to another individual within our State by these two companies.

This forces us to use FFL's at both ends. I don't mind that, but it is a bit cumbersome.

[Sylvan-Forge]

My problem is, I like to be honest .. and when I am, UPS won't ship my handgun intrastate.

So it's either break (spoken, not written) policy and risk insurance forfeiture or use a local FFL, who will be required by law to ship only to another FFL.

It can be cheaper, I suppose, but still extra work in order to lawfully do with my own belongings as I please.


...
Just saw your post, AEA.
Agreed, cumbersome.


This whole deal started for me when I had to drive over forty miles to use the UPS (customer center), which was the only carrier I could find that had written policy that did not forbid intrastate shipping of handguns, only to be confronted with a manager that refused not only to ship, but refused to produce the tariff/terms in writing.

I called and emailed UPS corporate, and they all say the same thing.

I guess that's what I get for trying to do it right.

I told them that they should just amend the stupid website, so people know what is going on. They have yet to do so.




To hell with them.
FedEx too.


.

[American_Pit_Bull]

They BOTH said "I know, but it is our company policy".That's the one problem... It isn't UPS's policy. It is clearly FedEx's policy, not to ship to an individual.

As I stated in the other thread... I drafted a letter to Corporate HQ of UPS specifically asking them about their policy. Their policy states that if it is legal, they will ship. Intrastate to an individual is legal.

I wonder if they will even respond.

[Sylvan-Forge]

They might, but it will probably be gobbledegook.

Want to see what I sent and the response I got?

It's kind of funny in a strange way :rolleyes:

[American_Pit_Bull]

It can't be worse than the one from your rep., but I would be interested.

[Sylvan-Forge]

I'll dig it up ... :)

Here 'tis..

Me to UPS:
Comments:Attn: Corporate

To whom it may concern,

On Friday, March 07, 2008, I attempted to send a handgun to an individual who resides in the State of Florida, via: UPS Customer Center, located at: xxxx xxxxx xx. Florida xxxxx.
I am also a Florida resident.

Per your policy, I verbally notified the Clerk that the package contains a firearm.
Specifically a handgun.
The clerk was unsure of the UPS policy and proceeded to contact a supervisor.
I spoke with one on the phone (xxxxxx) and one at the center itself. Her name is
xxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx.

Both stated that it was against UPS policy for a (nonlicensee) resident to ship a handgun to
another (nonlicensee) resident of the state of Florida.

I asked Mrs. xxxxxxxxxx to provide the Terms and Conditions of Service, so that we might settle the matter one way or the other. She refused.

Please allow me to direct you to the information that I found on the web,
regarding applicable laws and policies:
:::

UPS web page, entitled:
Transportation of Firearms:
http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/service/terms/firearms.html

states, in part,
'UPS will accept firearms for transportation only according to the
UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service.'
also,
'UPS accepts handgun shipments from UPS daily pickup accounts and through UPS Customer Centers.'


UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service:
http://www.ups.com/media/en/terms_service_12312007.pdf

states, in part,
',from and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law, and
when such shipment complies with all federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient and
package.'


UPS Shipping Firearms:
http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/prepare/guidelines/firearms.html

also states, in part,
',and from and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law and when such shipment complies with all applicable federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient and package.'


BATFE Firearm Shipping FAQ:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b7

states, in part,
'A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State '


FedEx and DHL will not send my handgun.
Everything I can gain access to, including UPS policies as well as
local, state, and federal laws, indicate that I can send a handgun to
a resident of my state. UPS is the sole entity and I am denied.
I realize the Federal and State governments are ultimately setting
the stage for this predictament. I only ask that you resolve and make
clear your policy to myself and to the management of the Customer
Center noted above.


Thank you,
Michael




UPS response to me:
Dear Michael,

Thank you for your inquiry regarding shipping firearms through UPS. Please note that automatic weapons are not authorized for shipment via our general UPS service offerings. In addition, there are multiple restrictions and requirements associated with transporting firearms in the UPS system.

The following lists explain who can send and receive shipments of firearms through UPS:

A Licensed Collector can ship firearms to the following receivers:

- Licensed Collectors
- Licensed Gun dealer
- Gun Manufacturer (as a result of repair or adjustment only)
- Law Enforcement Agency (not a police officer at home)

A Gun Manufacturer can ship firearms to the following receivers:

- Gun Manufacturer
- Licensed Gun Dealer
- Licensed Collector
- Individual (as a result of repair or adjustment only)
- Law Enforcement Agency (not a police officer at home)

A Licensed Gun Dealer can ship firearms to the following receivers:

- Licensed Gun dealer
- Licensed Collector
- Gun Manufacturer (as a result of repair or adjustment only)
- Law Enforcement Agency (not a police officer at home)

An Individual may ship firearms to a Gun Manufacturer only, for the purpose of repair or adjustment only. This is contingent on the individual not being prohibited by Federal, State, or local law to ship firearms. Please be aware that the shipment of a firearm from an individual to an individual is prohibited in the UPS system.

I apologize for any confusion caused by the UPS Terms and Conditions. Unfortunately, we are fundable to accept your shipment based on the information provided.

Please contact us if you need any additional assistance.

xxxxx xxxxxx
UPS Customer Service


My final response to UPS:
Mrs. xxxxxx,

Thank you for your timely response.

I ask that you please forward our communications to the proper department with a request to amend, in no uncertain terms, the previously noted UPS web pages and UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service .pdf.


Sincerely,
Michael








:what::scrutiny::cuss::banghead:

[American_Pit_Bull]

Interesting... If they would like that to be their policy, then why don't they PUT IT IN THE POLICY! http://www.anarchic-x.com/forum/images/smiles/nonono20.gif

[Sylvan-Forge]

Indeed

[pbearperry]

It must have been nice around 1880 when you could jump on your horse with your handgun strapped on your hip and ride anywhere in this country?What we really need is a Time Machine so we can transport ourselves out of this mess.

[akodo]

Do we have legal ways of sidestepping UPS policy?

Example, it is law that you notify the carrier that you are shipping a firearm per my understanding. Most people think that means walking up to the counter and say 'i am shipping a firearm' at which point the compay institutes it's policy.

What about sending them a registered letter stating your intent to send a firearm. That would meet the legal notification part, right?

Then just show up a day or two later with pre-boxed package, "i'd like to send this to address XYZ, as cheaply as possible" and they box it up and send it away.

That wouldn't be breaking the law, correct? as you did inform them, they just didn't take the time to connect the dots of your name on the letter and your name on the forms, check, visa card.

[nalioth]

I am in Texas and I inquired yesterday (by phone calls) to both UPS and FedEx Local HUBS about me (an individual) shipping a pistol to another individual in Texas.

Both of their replies were that I could not do it with them unless I was a Licensed FFL, and all the other BS I have shipped quite a few handguns to fellow Texans. You should print out the shipping policies nad take them with you to the UPS hub. If hte counterperson won't come off the "you can't do it" stance, ask for management.

Do we have legal ways of sidestepping UPS policy? Company policy is not the law, sir.

If you don't tell them what it is, they can invalidate any insurance claims or take other steps for you misrepresenting your contents.

[American_Pit_Bull]

Posted by akodo:
Example, it is law that you notify the carrier that you are shipping a firearm per my understanding.No, it is UPS policy that you notify them... The law requires you to notify if you are shipping to individuals that are not licensed FFLs, manufacturers, dealers, etc...

If you are shipping to an FFL, you are not required by law to notify them.

[Hkmp5sd]

The law requires you to notify if you are shipping to individuals that are not licensed FFLs, manufacturers, dealers, etc...


The law requires you to notify them only if shipping interstate or to foreign addresses, not intrastate.

[American_Pit_Bull]

Posted by Hkmp5sd:
The law requires you to notify them only if shipping interstate or to foreign addresses, when the recipient isn't an FFL, not intrastate.I fixed that for you. :)
And yes, you are correct about the intrastate exemption... I actually called the ATF about this several years ago and they told me that if the firearm isn't crossing state lines that they could care less how you mailed it.