Death Wish(the movie)and vigilantism


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vi9er
March 5, 2008, 10:59 AM
So i watched Death Wish for the first time about a week ago. And its been running on AMC seems like every night this week. The summary blurb in the guide for each movie(Death wish 1-4) always says "the Vigilante Architect".

In the first movie, was he really a vigilante?(i haven't seen more than a few minutes of the others) I have always considered vigilantism to be judging someone AFTER a crime has been committed. Hunting down and meting out justice to someone who wronged you. He was defending himself throughout the entire movie, albeit placing himself in dicey situations, he never initiated force, only responded.

What do you think? Is that vigilantism?

Ed

Sidenote: It seems to me that one of the most dangerous positions in the world is to be someone Charles Bronson cares about. Wife, daughter, girlfriend, girlfriends daughter, might as well have them all wear red shirts.

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FieroCDSP
March 5, 2008, 11:02 AM
I haven't seen the first one. The second one he was certainly hunting them down, albeit with good reason. The tag-line should read "Some people just need killing"

Redd Flynt
March 5, 2008, 11:10 AM
Certainly World history is rich with the operations of Vigilance organizations. When rule of law waivers or is in fact not present, then the Citizens have and will react. Walter VanTilburg Clark points out in "The Oxbow Incident" the dark side of such actions.

vi9er
March 5, 2008, 11:12 AM
In the first one, his wife was killed, and he armed himself with an old revolver, and would walk through the bad areas of town, waiting to get mugged, when the badguy would threaten him, he would burn them down.

HMMurdock
March 5, 2008, 11:16 AM
Good argument. I can see it as vigilantism (sp?) because of his motives. He wasn't just putting himself in dicey situations so much as seeking the vermin that will try to do him harm so he could beat them to it. It's a thin line and a good argument. Good post.

Yeah, excellent comparison on Bronson's loved ones to Red Shirts. Bronson's character is cursed!

BattleChimp Potemkin
March 5, 2008, 11:19 AM
Im personally 50/50 on these issues. Its a hard line to make. Feelings, emotions, "I KNOW THESE PEOPLE ARE EVIL". etc... versus justice, right, etc... I personally have a deathful hate of meth dealers (rampant in Indiana). I would love nothing more than to go after them , however, does that make my "justice" right? Not really. Those who fight monsters and looks into the abysss must take care not to become monsters themselves (actually touched upon in the beginning of DW3). I really dont like these sort of movies b/c the either have an agenda behind them (the brave one) or give people wrong ideas (Death Wish and similar).

Tribal
March 5, 2008, 11:20 AM
So...was someone watching AMC yesterday, then?

vi9er
March 5, 2008, 11:30 AM
Flipped between the Death Wish run on amc, and Family Guy/Southpark. ;-)

I don't see what he was doing as vigilante, so much as offensive defense, is the best i can come up with. He wasn't hunting anyone, and only responded with force when force, or the real threat of force, was used on him...

I see that as somewhat laudable.

Flame Red
March 5, 2008, 11:35 AM
I was watching the Death Wish series too on AMC and can see how so many movies that followed are just take offs. I believe that Death Wish 3 was made in 1985.

I noticed that he somehow managed to have a pistol shipped thru the mail directly from the manufacturer with out going thru an FFL. Also, everyone of course had an unregistered class 3 too.

Hokkmike
March 5, 2008, 11:38 AM
These movies are so old they seem funny now! They went up to Death Wish 4so I guess they made money. They are pure fiction.

1911NM
March 5, 2008, 11:41 AM
"When you look into the abyss, the abyss looks into you". Guess I was wondering how the Death Wish movies compared to the new Jodie Foster movie out on DVD. Haven't seen it, but sounded like another vigilante kinda thingy.

News Shooter
March 5, 2008, 11:43 AM
The DW series is better than watching snow on your TV screen, but only barely.

I forget which one it was III or IV, the one when he went back to NY. I actually liked that one the best because it turned into a campy take-off on running zombies

GhostlyKarliion
March 5, 2008, 11:46 AM
In my eyes a vigilante is someone who ignores an established justice system in favor of their own form of justice.

A vigilante is sometimes a person (such as the Punisher) who no longer believes that the established Justice system is capable of enacting justice and must be circumnavigated.

In my eyes, someone is not acting as a vigilante when engaged in self defense or enacting revenge, those two actions are incompatible with the concept.

And please note that despite media and liberal hype, a vigilante is usually a hero in the eyes of most.

98C5
March 5, 2008, 11:49 AM
Ah, Death Wish!! I had a thread about this series a while back. Love the Wildey .475!! "My friend Wildey will be here soon". Acting is horrible and low-budget, but I love the premise of the movie. He uses several different models, but the Wildey is the best. I guess he was rivaling Dirty Harry and the 44 Automag. Sound bites are almost identical.

TallPine
March 5, 2008, 12:05 PM
What's the difference between a Vigilance Committee and a government out of control ???

Kind of Blued
March 5, 2008, 12:40 PM
Some of the stuff makes me cringe when I think about how many a brainless anti across the country think that the only thing M16A2s are good for are blasting away in a crowded roller rink and lighting up a guy with the attached 37mm grenade launcher from "dueling" distance...

rocinante
March 5, 2008, 01:01 PM
I heard Sylvester Stallone is going to revive Death Wish as a film platform for himself. That man is the king of serial films.

Mainsail
March 5, 2008, 01:21 PM
Doesn't he (Bronson) form a militia in one of the movies? Some guy pulls an old WW2 machine gun out of his closet.

I also heard Stallone will be doing a remake of this series.

Zundfolge
March 5, 2008, 01:44 PM
They went up to Death Wish 4so I guess they made money.
Actually it went up to Death Wish 5 ... and probably would have gone higher if Charles Bronson hadn't passed.

Since Stallone is going to start doing DW movies its pretty clear that there's part of the American movie going public that still digs the premise (you can put me firmly in that camp).

Also note that Keven Bacon's Death Sentence is in essence a sequel/remake of the original Death Wish (since its also based on the novel that was the sequel to the novel the original Death Wish was based on)

I caught part of DW3 at the gym last night ... honestly the whole thing feels like a JPFO propaganda film (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Dirtypacman
March 5, 2008, 02:47 PM
One of my favorite movies - just a classic.

I call it "Street Justice" instead of vigilante.

FieroCDSP
March 5, 2008, 02:49 PM
I've been wanting to see the Bacon film. Those of you who have seen it, is it the usual anti dribble like The Brave One, or is it a genuinely good film?

MechAg94
March 5, 2008, 03:01 PM
The interesting idea that Death Wish put forward was that the city attorneys and cops were putting a whole lot of extreme effort into finding and punishing the "vigilante" all the while doing little or nothing about the actual criminals out there who were apparently very easy to find. It was a very common of view of things in the 1970's. One reason why that movie and the Dirty Harry movies were popular.

Fast forward to today and he wasn't doing anything (in the original) that a guy with legal concealed carry couldn't do (aside from chasing down the escaping bad guy).

Patrick_Henry
March 5, 2008, 03:27 PM
Yeah, the movies are premised on the idea that the police are more or less the bad guys. In DW 3 they take a gun away from a law abiding older couple who used it to defend themselves when someone came through the window. The charge was more or less "brandishing" and possession of a firearm in city limits. By the end of the movie the citizens stand up and kill most of the BGs. It is interesting to me that Hollywood tells us the cops are often corrupt and lazy and simultaneously tries to convince us to let them protect us...

ShunZu
March 5, 2008, 03:44 PM
What's the difference between a Vigilance Committee and a government out of control ???


Answer: One may be necessary at some point in time, and the other is a result of unabashed growth with an intent of complete tyranny at some point in time. Both will eventually meet their ends.

qwert65
March 5, 2008, 04:26 PM
I like the first death wish after that they got pretty crappy. In the first one I don't think it was vigilantism because he was trolling for muggers(I think thats dumb but not going after people) He didn't start anything. In relation to the Ox Bow Incident where they hung innocent men the difference being they hadn't caught them in the act-that was vigilantism

serrano
March 5, 2008, 05:49 PM
Bennett: They call him "The Giggler".
Paul Kersey: Jesus, he really moves.

I'm going out for some ice cream...

Cannonball888
March 5, 2008, 06:28 PM
http://www.irancartoon.com/radmandA/CHARLES.jpg

Paul Kersey: You believe in Jesus...
Stomper: Yes, I do.
Paul Kersey: Well, you're gonna meet him

Mainsail
March 5, 2008, 06:39 PM
The conspiracist in me believes that Stallone is remaking the movie with the hopes that it will lead to copycat killings, and then further gun control. Even if it doesn’t create copycat vigilantes, they can use the movie’s release to twist bona fide self defense shootings into a media circus.

Cosmoline
March 5, 2008, 06:40 PM
Stallone is looking to bring his career back from the dead.

I'll take "Death Hunt" over any of the "Death Wish" sequels, though the original was OK.

Vigilantism implies a group of people literally taking the law into their own hands. Often by forming an ad hoc court and following through with summary execution.

CZ-100
March 5, 2008, 06:46 PM
Check out "Death Hunt" also starring Charles Bronson, Great film..

My CWP, is signed by Charles Bronson

Florida's Commissioner of Agriculture...

MechAg94
March 5, 2008, 06:47 PM
Occasionally, the History Channel does a show on the history of vigilantism in the US. The US has a fairly storied history of vigilantes over its history. It seemed to normally pick up with organized crime got bad or politicians got in bed with criminals. They almost always started out good and did some good things then got out of control and eventually disband. I think one incident had a 2nd vigilante gang spring up to oppose the first one.

It makes some sense, human nature being what it is.

MechAg94
March 5, 2008, 06:48 PM
Is Death Hunt the one that takes place up in the Canadian Rockies? It had the guy from Dirty Dozen.

DougDubya
March 5, 2008, 06:49 PM
It's a movie. Before that it was a book. It's entertainment, with a small bit of philosophical examination of the metaphysics of violence, justification and how the world reacts to such actions. Leave it to the Liberals to seek out deeper meaning and condemnation, so that the rest of the thinking world actually applies their minds to SOLVING problems, not POINTING THEM OUT.

bonza
March 5, 2008, 06:52 PM
Is Death Hunt the one that takes place up in the Canadian Rockies? It had the guy from Dirty Dozen.

Yes, Lee Marvin, played a Mountie tracking down Charles Bronson's character based on the factual story of a 'mad trapper'.

another okie
March 5, 2008, 06:57 PM
In the first one he doesn't ever find the bad guys, and neither do the cops. He just sort of shoots over a baited field, if you know what I mean.

In the second one and third ones he goes after the guys who hurt his family, which is more what I think of as vigilante action.

In four he's sort of a one man "clean up LA" committee, and in five he's back to seeking revenge.

I may have some of these wrong, because they do kind of run together, and I didn't see them when they came out. They really take me back to the 70s and the cocaine-driven crime wave that swept over the cities, along with disco. I'm not sure which was worse.

BigO01
March 5, 2008, 07:26 PM
No matter what you call it he was taking out the trash , which is always a good thing .

Some people use cans , some bags , so he used a gun , to each his own LOL !!

LeonCarr
March 5, 2008, 07:40 PM
The movie Death Wish 3 has a .475 Wildey Magnum as the featured firearm. According to Wildey Moore, owner of Wildey Firearms, he sells one everytime Death Wish 3 comes on TV :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Ratshooter
March 5, 2008, 07:58 PM
They really take me back to the 70s and the cocaine-driven crime wave that swept over the cities, along with disco. I'm not sure which was worse.

Disco was worse.

There was a thread here earlier about this movie. Its one of my favorites. The first one was the best. The second o.k. and after that they are pretty corney.

The first DW had a Colt police positive in 32 s&w long. I almost won an auction for one on GB but got outbid at the last moment. This movie is also one of the resons i like 32s so much. I have 3 32 longs and 5 32 mags.

Death hunt was a good one also. Lots of neat guns. Savage 99s, 303 Enfeilds, Winchester 94 and the very best, a Bristol Scout Biplane from WW1.

Hokkmike
March 5, 2008, 08:04 PM
and probably would have gone higher if Charles Bronson hadn't passed

You mean he is dead!? I actually didn't know.......

Zedicus
March 5, 2008, 08:17 PM
You mean he is dead!? I actually didn't know.......

http://imdb.com/name/nm0000314/

Defensory
March 5, 2008, 08:55 PM
Director Sergio Leone (A Fistful of Dollars; For a Few Dollars More; The Good, the Bad and the Ugly) once called Bronson "the greatest actor I ever worked with".

Bronson was Leone's first choice for the starring role in the above three classics, but Bronson turned down all three. Clint Eastwood was thankful for that, since those were the three movies that launched Eastwood's career as a movie star.

yokel
March 5, 2008, 09:05 PM
When Charles Bronson wants to sit alone and read his paper on the subway, leave Charles Bronson alone.

dmazur
March 6, 2008, 12:49 AM
For a really bad remake, look at "The Brave One".

I don't like any of these, as they make it appear that self-defense is

1) Something nobody thinks about until after a life-altering, horrifying experience, and

2) Something that results in cursing the person who decides to do it, turning them into a monster who lusts after killing again and again, like eating potato chips.

On the other hand, a "good CCW shoot" wouldn't make much of a movie: Bad guy jumps good guy. Bang-bang (double tap). Credits.

Evil Monkey
March 6, 2008, 01:09 AM
On the other hand, a "good CCW shoot" wouldn't make much of a movie: Bad guy jumps good guy. Bang-bang (double tap). Credits.

LOL:D That sounds hilarious.

"Watch 'Sarah Hotty' and 'Billy badass' in.....A Good Shoot

COMING TO A THEATER NEAR YOU!

Rated:R, under 17 not permitted without a parent or guardian, due to intense violence, nudity, sexual behavior, and minor drug use.

Leif Runenritzer
March 6, 2008, 03:26 AM
I've been wanting to see the Bacon film. Those of you who have seen it, is it the usual anti dribble like The Brave One, or is it a genuinely good film?

Death Sentence is an ugly movie, but it's basically good and not anti in any way i could see.

Dumpster Baby
March 6, 2008, 04:26 AM
Paul Kersey: You believe in Jesus...
Stomper: Yes, I do.
Paul Kersey: Well, you're gonna meet him

A bit of trivia - the actor that played this bizarre goon played Rafterman in Full Metal Jacket. Forgot his name.

ttinlv
March 6, 2008, 04:45 AM
Kevyn Major Howard ~ Rafterman - Full Metal Jacket 1987 (IMDB)


As MechAg94 eluded to,

It was the underlying theme of the 70's. Quit being sheeple, one person can make a difference and if each of us does even one small thing, this country and the world would be a better place.

That 70's theme does seem right for a revival now. There are far too many people that just let "stuff" happen.

One act of kindness, etc etc

I'm not trying to say get all lovey/dovey, but something as small as a smile and a hello to a passing stranger is sometimes all that's needed to make a person's day a little more pleasant.

Titan6
March 6, 2008, 04:56 AM
More Trivia- In DWII Laurence Fishburne had a supporting role as one of the key bad guys. One of his first movie roles.

ttinlv
March 6, 2008, 05:04 AM
Lawerance Fishburne III ~ Cutter ~ Death Wish II 1982 (IMDB)

Also in Death Wish II
Kevyn Major Howard ~ Stomper

Titan6
March 6, 2008, 05:08 AM
Lawerance Fishburne III

Yes he is the same person. If I played that role I would not use my real name at all.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082250/fullcredits

ttinlv
March 6, 2008, 05:19 AM
I noticed it was Laurence, Lawerance, and Larry. Only one missing was Lars.

Maybe he knew someone that owned an inn in Vermont and they were all just brothers.

98C5
March 6, 2008, 09:22 AM
Yeah, Lawrence could have been on "So you think you can dance" show with those stellar moves in DW2. :D

Mk VII
March 6, 2008, 01:57 PM
Sidenote: It seems to me that one of the most dangerous positions in the world is to be someone Charles Bronson cares about. Wife, daughter, girlfriend, girlfriends daughter, might as well have them all wear red shirts.

And don't, whatever you do, make friends with Jessica. You'll either be murdered, or end up being tried for murder.

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