My Sig and UPS, WARNING TO 18-20 YEARS OF AGE


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BlazingAngel01
March 6, 2008, 02:51 AM
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/CSS10523/Picture034.jpg

I received my 229 back form Sig today and it is great. The Short Rest Trigger (SRT) works wonders. I Recommend you try it, they also install a new hammer with it.

Cleaning the stainless steel was a breeze all i really had to do was wipe it down after 100 Rounds thought it and I love the way it looks.

Well as we all know with all the fun with the Weapons we love and hold so dear there are set backs I had my share today.PEOPLE FORM 18 - 20 READ THIS. UPS WILL NOT GIVE YOU YOUR FIREARM EVEN IF THE BOX HAS YOUR NAME ON IT:banghead:. The Man came to my door and asked if i was me and I said yes handed him my ID,Slip form UPS and My Pistol ID card. He looked at them said I'm sorry but I cant give this to you, your not 21. Well after showing him UPS Regulations that said, I'm the owner of the Con tense of the Package, he still wouldn't give me the box and added that He thought I wouldn't get it EVER.:fire:

I went to the HUB and talked with his Boss well She said the same thing UNTIL I said that that would force me to make a report to the ATF and then her Attitude changed. "Well then Sir we can have him go back to your house or He will be back here by Six PM But you must have someone over the age of 21 sign for it at the same Address". The funny thing was the Desk lady thought it was stupid and said she always had problems shipping firearms even working there.

After all is said and done and now that the Flames are out of my eyes, Just let this lesson be learned, Have a FFL send it, or have a Parent so you save time and $75 in gas.:o

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Wes Janson
March 6, 2008, 04:31 AM
I'd have been strongly tempted to express other sentiments. What if you live alone, or have no contact with your parents (or don't have any)? I'd have no hesitation calling in ATF and the local PD on the issue. Ownership can't be relinquished because of some private corporation's idiotic internal procedure.

Firepower!
March 6, 2008, 04:38 AM
Just because they are shipping guns they think they are the police. This is true in many different way with different people such as Mall Security FORCE!

If UPS does not want to hand over packages containing a weapon to someone under 21 then they should make that clear before accpeting the order from the seller- and not handle those orders!

Feanaro
March 6, 2008, 05:08 AM
That's useful information. Disturbing information. They will take it from you but they won't return it. :cuss:

loop
March 6, 2008, 05:38 AM
The reason is pretty simple. It is illegal to sell a handgun to someone under the age of 21. People under the age of 21 may be in possession of a handgun, but cannot actually own one according to federal law. Some states require that anyone under 21 in possession of a handgun carry a note from a parent or guardian authorizing possession.

Transferring possession of a handgun to someone under 21 can lead to jail time. Their policy is correct.

I'm not saying I agree with it (or about 10,000 other stupid gun laws), but it is the right thing to do legally.

The following is from the BATFE Web site.

"Under the GCA, long guns and long gun ammunition may be sold only to persons 18 years of age or older. Sales of handguns and ammunition for handguns are limited to persons 21 years of age and older."

The language of the actual law is much more complex and refers to "transfer." This quote comes from their FAQs.

Feanaro
March 6, 2008, 06:59 AM
People under the age of 21 may be in possession of a handgun, but cannot actually own one according to federal law...
Transferring possession of a handgun to someone under 21 can lead to jail time. Their policy is correct.

Incorrect. An 18 year old cannot purchase a handgun from a FFL but, barring state law, can purchase a pistol privately or be given one as a gift. It is not unlawful, at the federal level, to transfer a handgun to such a person.

Title 18, section 922 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html):

(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile—
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess—
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun...

For purposes of this subsection, the term “juvenile” means a person who is less than 18 years of age.

Warren
March 6, 2008, 07:42 AM
So what would have happened if you just took it from him?

chilie
March 6, 2008, 08:02 AM
Take the package from the UPS driver? That's theft. It is "UPS's" in the legal sense, until 1. they drop the package at your door 2. They hand the package over to you or 3. The package is signed for. Until any of these things are accomplished, then the package is still UPS's in terms of legallistically. The OP did the right thing by going to the hub and getting it figured it out. Trying to negotiatie with the driver will not get you anywhere, and trying to steal it from him will only land the police on your front doorstep as well

98C5
March 6, 2008, 09:29 AM
Good Lord people. Most drivers/shippers/carriers do not know ALL the rules like we do regarding handguns. Why did he not give it to you? Simple. What they know and hear is "No handguns under 21". AND...LIABILITY. They don't know about "gifts" or "private sales". To them shipping a pistol back to you is like trying to purchase it from a dealer under 21. No dice.

Fisherman_48768
March 6, 2008, 10:14 AM
BlazingAngel01: Your a resident of Michigan where it is legal for a 18 yr old to own a handgun, you just can't buy one from a FFL dealer.
Go to the Mich State Police website and copy the law that so you can present it to that fine UPS lady that is so law abiding.

Deer Hunter
March 6, 2008, 11:03 AM
You think that's bad? You should have been there when a serious anti-firearm SNOB (no better use of the word) looked down at me from his thick-rimmed glasses and told me that UPS would never TOUCH what was in my package.

What was in my package, you ask?

A shotgun barrel.

I don't think he was an anti because of his store policy, but simply by the tone of his voice and how his expression changed when I answered his simple question, "What's in the package that you need shipped?"

thinking back, I should have said "metal pipe".

PPGMD
March 6, 2008, 11:44 AM
Nice, I am still waiting on Sig to send my smith the SRT kit. Been waiting a couple of weeks now.

hawkeb
March 6, 2008, 02:47 PM
Next time I would try have a local FFL send firearms back to the factory. I may even be cheaper cause an FFL can send it USPS. Just talk to your local shop and see what they are willing to do for you. Heck even it they charge ya a little more they what the shipping charge is it would make I worth while not to have to deal with UPS

waterhouse
March 6, 2008, 03:30 PM
Next time I would try have a local FFL send firearms back to the factory.

This would be a problem. Not only can an FFL not sell a handgun to someone under 21, they can't transfer one to someone under 21. If Sig had sent the gun back to the FFL he'd have had more problems getting it back than from UPS.

Was there any sort of signature label on the box from UPS that said "Adult Signature Required."? My shipments from Sig always require and adult signature. I don't know if your did or not. If it did, then I don't blame UPS. If Sig sent the gun "adult signature required" then UPS has basically agreed to follow their customer's (Sig's) orders.

BlazingAngel01
March 6, 2008, 03:44 PM
I showed him all the state Requirement and he still blew it off UPS, State Law, and Federal. All he said was he could get fired and went on his way.

Feanaro: That is the Youth Firearms Act. In Michigan, every Time you but a Firearm you get it. Its a yellow Pamphlet as well as Safety Laws.

wdlsguy
March 6, 2008, 03:45 PM
Not only can an FFL not sell a handgun to someone under 21, they can't transfer one to someone under 21.
I'm not sure SIG can legally return his handgun to him, seeing as SIG is an FFL...

waterhouse
March 6, 2008, 03:47 PM
I'm not sure SIG can legally return his handgun to him, seeing as SIG is an FFL

No transfer was done, and no 4473 was filled out, and no background check performed. Manufacturers may return guns to their owners without going through an FFL.

I showed him all the state Requirement and he still blew it off UPS, State Law, and Federal. All he said was he could get fired and went on his way.

Right, but if there was an adult signature required sticker, he could have been fired. If there was a sticker, UPS agreed to only deliver the gun to someone 21 years of age or older.

Funderb
March 6, 2008, 03:51 PM
umm withholding mail is a felony. mail fraud, right?
ad yes, you only have to be 18 to buy a handgun, just
21 for the munitions.

waterhouse
March 6, 2008, 03:52 PM
umm withholding mail is a felony. mail fraud, right?
ad yes, you only have to be 18 to buy a handgun, just
21 for the munitions.

It's not mail if it is going UPS. The post office handles mail.

wdlsguy
March 6, 2008, 04:00 PM
...
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliveró

(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;
...
18 USC 922 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html)

waterhouse
March 6, 2008, 04:06 PM
Point well taken. My mistake. Part of that law includes

who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe

My guess is that Sig sent the gun "Adult Signature Required." That sort of covers them under the law you posted, and all shipments I've gotten from Sig came that way.

In fact, it appears that UPS was actually trying to prevent a crime from occurring, since Sig shipping the gun back to its owner was in violation of the law you posted.

Funderb
March 6, 2008, 04:09 PM
that's funny because YHSA says 18 years.

waterhouse
March 6, 2008, 04:12 PM
that's funny because YHSA says 18 years.

The YHSA notice is meant for people who are not dealers. Non-FFLs play by different rules.

Funderb
March 6, 2008, 04:14 PM
ooooh!
Now I get it.
I've been puzzling over the contradiction for a while now.
thanks much.

waterhouse
March 6, 2008, 04:19 PM
Don't worry, you aren't the only one who was puzzled. When I got my FFL the ATF gave me a big poster, basically saying what the YHSA notice says, except in bigger font. I'm required to hang the poster at my place of business.

I had never really read it carefully, but one day I did, and I called to tell them that the poster had a typo. They explained that the poster was for the customers, not for the dealer. The guy laughed and said he always hears about the typo on the poster.

I feel like some dealer somewhere has been selling handguns to 18 year old for years, since that's what the big poster says you can do.

Caimlas
March 6, 2008, 04:29 PM
Was there any sort of signature label on the box from UPS that said "Adult Signature Required."? My shipments from Sig always require and adult signature. I don't know if your did or not. If it did, then I don't blame UPS. If Sig sent the gun "adult signature required" then UPS has basically agreed to follow their customer's (Sig's) orders.

Since when is 18 not considered a legal adult?

waterhouse
March 6, 2008, 04:32 PM
Since when is 18 not considered a legal adult?

Well, that's a valid point, but UPS requires someone of 21 years of age for their "Adult Signature Required" packages.

From the UPS webpage:
Adult Signature Required: UPS will obtain the adult recipient's signature and provide you with a printed copy. Adult recipients must be at least 21. You may also view the adult recipient's signature online.

Guapo
March 6, 2008, 05:26 PM
All the 2A stuff is irrelevant. If a shipper has selected the "Adult (over 21) Signature" option on the shipment, then UPS will be liable for the contents of the package if they fail to get a 21+ signature. It doesn't matter what is inside. It could be a box of marbles, and they are still beholden to the shipper for fulfilling the services paid for.

denfoote
March 6, 2008, 06:05 PM
You experienced the UPS definition of "Adult Signature Required".
Personally, I don't screw around with them or Fedex any more!!
I have a friend with an FFL.
I take the gun and $5, hand both to him, and he drops it into the mail!! ;):)

BlazingAngel01
March 7, 2008, 12:36 AM
I made a phone call to the ATF Field Office to work thins out if it ever happens again and this is what they said. "If you own the weapon it is yours". " Only the ATF or Law Enforcement can Stop someone from owning a Weapon", "If I have work done one the weapon from a FFL they will return my Weapon or I must report it stolen"."If I ship a weapon and UPS, FedEx fails to return it I must call Local Law Enforcement or the ATF'.
"IF you are 18 -20 you own a handgun it is YOURS"."Don't let someone play you like it is not". "The Serial Number is it your name it is YOUR Responsibility treat it as such".If you have a problem Call Law Enforcement".

waterhouse
March 7, 2008, 11:07 AM
I have also spoken to the ATF about this. I had a 19 year old that wanted me to sell a gun for him on consignments. It was a .22 pistol. I did not want to take possession of the gun and log it into my books until I was sure I could get it back to him if it did not sell.

I spoke to the ATF office in San Antonio and they very specifically told me that if I took possession of the handgun I would not be able to transfer it back to the guy since he was under 21. I have seen no law that makes me believe that what I was told over the phone is untrue.

I don't know whether there is a good answer to this kind of situation, but I wouldn't transfer a handgun to someone under 21 unless I could be shown a law, in writing, that said it was lawful.

But back to the case at hand, did the box Sig shipped to you come "adult signature required?" If so, then Guapo nailed it. It isn't a 2a issue, it is a contract issue between UPS and Sig. That gun may be rightfully yours, but the UPS guy doesn't know that. He just knows that his company agreed with his company's customer to deliver the gun to someone over 21 years of age.

Wes Janson
March 7, 2008, 11:33 AM
My understanding, and this could be completely erroneous, is that the key question is whether a transfer is taking place. When you take a firearm to a gunsmith, you don't fill out a 4473 to have it returned (I'd presume because the ownership remains yours). Direct to and from the factory does not require a 4473, so no problem. Involving an FFL suddenly brings in a 4473, and boom, you're stuck.

hawkeb
March 7, 2008, 12:15 PM
My understanding, and this could be completely erroneous, is that the key question is whether a transfer is taking place. When you take a firearm to a gunsmith, you don't fill out a 4473 to have it returned (I'd presume because the ownership remains yours). Direct to and from the factory does not require a 4473, so no problem. Involving an FFL suddenly brings in a 4473, and boom, you're stuck.

Not really sure what that means. How does taking a firearm to an FFL to ship back to factory and have factory ship back to FFL cause you to fill out the form again. The transfer of ownership never changed, it is still your firearm. I have shipped firearms back to factory for warranty repairs and I took it back to dealer I purchased from and they took care of everything. When firearm was returned dealer called me. I picked up and that was it no paper work to fill out. The reason people will take handguns to FFL to have them ship them is because an FFL can ship handguns using USPS and it is way cheaper.

Miked7762
March 8, 2008, 03:16 AM
My understanding, and this could be completely erroneous, is that the key question is whether a transfer is taking place.

There is an important distinction between two kinds of transfers. A transfer of ownership (to a non-FFL entity anyway) requires the 4473 and always implies the second kind of transfer: transfer of possession. It is this possession transfer which is the sticking point. If you ship a firearm to a dealer or manufacturer, or if you leave it with a gunsmith/shop beyond the close of business, the dealer or manufacturer is legally in possession of the firearm. This is something which must be logged by them in the so-called bound book. Anyone with FFL credentials (manufacturer, dealer, gunsmith) may not transfer possession of a handgun to anyone under the age of 21 even if the person is the legal owner of the firearm. That's where the problem is -- you may own it, but the entity in possession of it cannot transfer it back to you. The entity also cannot transfer it to someone else over the age of 21 without the 4473, in which case the person over 21 is now the legal owner of the firearm. It's an ugly situation.

Coronach
March 8, 2008, 03:06 PM
That's funny. I have had the opposite problem. Back when I used to live in a very bad neighborhood, I came home to find a package on my front porch. "CONTAINS FIREARM" and "ADULT SIGNATURE REQUIRED" were plastered all over it. 30' away the bums, hookers and drug dealers were ambling back and forth, plying their respective trades. Fortunately none of them looked closely enough at the package to notice.

Mike

Coronach
March 8, 2008, 03:17 PM
I also agree that the 2A/RKBA/Handgun issue in this is moot. The shipper specified that an adult signature is required. The shipping company defines "adult" as 21 and up, which is stupid, but they are the company the shipper elected to use. The actual content of the package is a non-issue. It could be an Ipod for all that it matters.

Now, it is a very valid point that if you're 18-20 years of age and you're shipping stuff back and forth, you need to make sure that your gunsmith/company is using a company that will not make it prohibitively difficult for you to get your package.

Mike

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