[walking arsenal]

whats everyones two cents worth on the .357 sig? Does anyone see it fading out or will it become as popular as the .40 S&W over time?

[10-Ring]

I really enjoy shooting the 357 sig much more than the 40 s&w. But like the 10mm, I the 357sig might end up a cult round :(

[mete]

Some LE agencies have adopted it but I think the 40 is more popular. Anyway there doesn't seem to be any difference 'on the street' between 357sig,40 and 45. Besides when you get tired of the 357sig just switch to a 40 barrel.

[WonderNine]

I think it will catch on more after the AWB dies. But it may never be as popular as 9X19 or (barf) .40.

[jc2]

I see it remaining a niche cartridge supported by a core of enthusiasts much like the 10mm and .41 Magnum. While it has enjoyed lmited some success in the LE market, it is really very, very small in terms of both total LE agencies and individual LEOs--the 10mm probably saw wider use as a LE round in its time.

The trouble with the 357 Sig is sooner or later most people realize: it really offers no improvement in terminal performance over the best 9x19s (including standard pressure, +P, and +P+); it is harder on both the shooter and the weapon than the 9x19; it has significantly more muzzle flip and muzzle blast than the 9x19; it reduces your ammunition capacity; it has a very limited ammunition available; it is relatively expensive; it is hard to find in many places; there is a limited number a handguns chambered (or at least readily available) for it.

If you want to shoot a .36 calibre round, the 9x19 just makes far better sense the the 357 Sig. There seems to be noticable trend of trying the 357 Sig to see what it's all about and the then going back to the 9x19. It's a good round, but it just doesn't do anything a number of other well established rounds do as well (or better)--not exactly a formula for success in the marketplace. It's jsut not a "better mousetrap."

[Geech]

Why don't you like the .40, WonderNine?

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

I love mine. Have it in a SiG P229 for almost 2 years. The Texas Department of Public Safety (Highway Patrol) and Dallas Police carry it as do several other other LE organizations in this state, in either P226 or P229 format. All those officers I know and speak with who carry it like it as well. From what I've read, it works well when applied.

The bark will surprise you as much as the bite does, and it bites hard downrange.

If you want to see info from a highly biased cheerleader for 357SIG, have a look at this.

Pete's 357SIG pages (http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/)

Regards,
Rabbit.

[krept]

on paper it looks like a good cartridge.

unfortunately, none of the places I shoot at rents them, even the place that rents a G20 :confused:

[Rich357]

I have several pistols that either started as .357SIG or .40 S&W and I have barrels for both loads. The .357SIG seems to consistently have an edge in accuracy from the same pistol with the same brand of barrel.

The .357SIG is highly reliable. The little bottle neck feeds vrey well.

The .357SIG 125gr has virtually the same performance as the .357Mag 125gr from a 4" revolver but much more comfortable to shoot than the .357Mag out of a revolver. The semi-auto action makes the recoil less harsh.

I like the 9mm for inexpensive range use and it is nice that it is easily available, but if something happend and I had to grab a 9mm or .357SIG for SD, I would rather take a chance with .357SIG.

Rich

[Rich357]

krept-
"on paper it looks like a good cartridge. unfortunately, none of the places I shoot at rents them, even the place that rents a G20"
-----------

Do you want to shoot a 10mm or .357SIG? The G20 and G29 both shoot 10mm. The G31, G32, and G33 are .357SIGs. And, a number of other brands have pistols chambered for .357SIG.

Rich

[Rich357]

Will the .357SIG fade out or become as popular as the .40S&W? I don't think it will become as popular as the .40S&W because people seem to like a cartirdge that looks larger in their hand. People also tend to follow what the police use. Currently, the .40S&W is more popular with police departments.

I don't think the .357SIG will fade out because it is so easy to shoot the .357SIG in many of the pistols that started life as a .40S&W. They don't need to buy a new pistol or pay for a lot of gunsmithing to make the change.

Rich

[jnb01]

While Pete apparently does still like and shoot the 357 Sig, his carry weapon and competition guns are now chambered in 9mm. 2 Glock 34's and a Glock 26 respectively.

He was the calibers biggest "cheerleader", but for one reason or another (I won't speculate as I don't know), he went back to the 9mm. :uhoh: ;)

Best, jnb01

[krept]

Rich,

I live west of Phoenix. The few places in my area that rent firearms for use on their range do not rent 357SIG. Only one rents a 10mm (G20).

So far I have not been able to try out either cartridge, but would like to.

btw... pretty sure the 10mm is here to stay. I think the 357 SIG is as well, simply because it only requires a barrel swap to shoot in weapons chambered for .40.

cheers

[litework]

I think it is definitely here to stay. I have one 357 Sig and like it as much as any other caliber I have (except maybe the 10mm). With a 22lb recoil spring, I have a hard time distinguishing recoil between it and a 9mm in a like gun. The state police in Virginia made the switch to 357 Sig; it is a viable alternative to the forty.

[LawDog]

Agencies that issue the .357 SIG:

Delaware State Police
Dallas, Texas PD
Federal Air Marshals
Federal Protective Services
Keizer Police Department, Oregon
La Porte County Indiana Sheriff's Department
Laurence County Sheriff's Office, Tennessee
Liberty Twp Police Dept, Ohio
Maine Aroostook County Sheriff's Office
Maine Game Wardens
Maricopa County [Phoenix] Arizona Sheriff's Office/MCSO
Montcalm County (Michigan) Sheriff's Office
New Jersey Division of Fish & Game
New Mexico State Police
Niles Police Dept, Ohio
Northwood Police Dept, ND
NC Highway Patrol
NC Wake County Sheriff's Department
NC Wildlife Enforcement Officers
Nueces County Sheriff Department, Texas
Oakland County Sheriff's Dept, Michigan
Orange Police Dept, CT
Oxford, Mississippi
Richmond, Virginia
Rocky Mount Police Dept, Rocky Mount, NC
Springfield, IL
Tennessee Highway Patrol
Union County Sheriff's Office, Marysville, Ohio
Texas, DPS
United States (GSA) - Office of Inspector General (OIG) Special Agents
United States Secret Service
Virginia State Police

LawDog

[caz223]

The 357SIG round is great, as are most of the guns chambered for it.
The problem is, that properly loaded 9mm is 90% as powerful, costs 50% less, and you can fit more of 'em in a magazine that is standard capacity.
The 10 round limit is what made this caliber competitive.
You can easily buy 9mm +p for the same price as 357SIG practice fodder.
Also, if you reload, 9mm can come closer to 357SIG performance than you think for the price of factory 9mm (Which isn't very much at all.)
I have several guns chambered in 9mm, .40, and 357SIG, and I shoot my nines the most.
Being cheaper to feed is prolly the biggest reason.

[jc2]

The problem is, that properly loaded 9mm is 90% as powerful, costs 50% less, and you can fit more of 'em in a magazine that is standard capacity.
The current generation 9x19 ammunition (in particular, the Ranger Ts--RA9T and RA9TA) are proving more like 100% as effective as the 357 Sig. The days of the 357 Sig offering any advantage in terminal effectiveness over the 9x19 are long past. The 357 Sig is truly "just another 9."

[caz223]

I believe that for the most part, too.
I just didn't want to incite an argument.
If you handload, you can load 357SIG hotter, you just can't shoot a person with it in defense of your life.
It works great on varmints. :p

[jc2]

I know about the arguments--some 357 Sig "true-believers" are so zealous!

[krept]

The reason I almost went with the 357 SIG is that the practice ammo is very much like the defensive ammo... i.e. closer to what you would have to use in real life.

Then a P7M8 found it's way into my hand...

[Sean Smith]

127 @ 1250 ft/sec (Winchester 127gr +P+ 9x19)

or

125 @ 1,400 ft/sec (Pro Load .357 Sig Gold Dot)
125 @ 1,425 ft/sec (Cor-Bon .357 Sig JHP)

I like 9x19, but those aren't comparable ballistics. Sometimes I think 9x19 fans doth protest too much, claiming to magically get equal performance with inferior ballistics. Sure, if attacking blocks of jello are the bane of your existence... ;)

[jc2]

Nobody said the 357 Sig wasn't faster, you just don't gain anything in terminal effectiveness from that few fps difference in MV. The current generation 9x19 and 357 Sig deliver virtually identical penetration and expansion in the lab and on the street. They are also delivering virtually identical results "on the street" when used by LE. So, yes, you get a few fps more with the 357 Sig, but you don't gain anything in terms of terminal effectiveness for those few fps--both bullets are delivering identical performances despite the small difference in velocity. The bullets are optimized to perform within their velocity range, and there is no difference between optimum performance of a 9mm Luger bullet and 9mm Sig bullet (using top of the line current generation bullets), period.

[krept]

What is the purpose? For me it's self defense. If you can load a 115gr +P+ 9mm to completely expand/fragment or can load a 124gr +P that fully penetrates, what do you gain by the extra FPS?

more energy and more penetration, like the 10mm relative to the .40.

I guess my honest question is... is that extra energy practical for bad guys, especially given the variety of 9mm ammo available?

I just don't know. Apparently the guys protecting the President think so.


cheers

[jc2]

more energy and more penetration
You really don't gain more penetration--the penetration and expansion figures for the top of the line 9x19 (e.g., the Ranger T loads) is virtually identical to the 357 Sig? What does the slight gain energy give you--energy is not wounding mechanism (at least with handguns)? Maybe, it does give you slightly slower follow-ups (more muzzle flip and muzzle blast), slightly more wear and tear on the weapon and the shooter, but it does not give you any greater effectiveness because the bullets are both designed for optimum performance at their respective energy levels (and there is no difference in optimum performance between these two .36 calibre rounds).

[walking arsenal]

well, although i think were getting a little off subject (i believe the question was does anyone see .357 fading out) i think it's a great round, i might even go as far to say it's better than .40 i think it's lack of popularity is because of the fact that it came out around the same time as .40 and kinda got left in the limelight. it's a great round shoots flat, great BG stopper, fast, it's everything i want in a .357 mag with the capacity of an auto loader. so 9*19 is cheaper and .40 does just as good a job, i think we all know that in the handgun defense biz there is no right way just the way that works best for you. personally, i'd rather run standard pressure .357 and get the hi velocity than super charge that poor little 9mm round and lose some fingers or be accused by a lawyer that i was using super hot killer earth destroying mega bullets:scrutiny: Note: i also keep all my carry handguns in the .38 caliber range so i can keep a small cleaning kit.

[walking arsenal]

what does velocity get you? have someone hit you with a volkswagon doing 5 mph then 15, 10 mph difference right? which one hurts worse?

[fastbolt]

I think the 357SIG will remain a viable, but lesser, caliber when it comes to pistols chambered for it, and ammunition selection & availability ... compared to the 9mm, .45 ACP & .40 S&W ...

The pending "shorty" 45Glock may even provide some unanticipated competition for the 357SIG due to the smaller frame being available in the new caliber. Pistol grip frame size, similar capacity due to case dimensions, and the allure of the "new" lightweight .45 ammunition may attract a fair share of the civilian & even L/E market, especially those who have wanted a .45 but found the grip frmae dimensions just fractionally too large for their hands. L/E are often the first to jump on anything newer, better, faster, more "tactical", anyway ... which doesn't mean it's any of the that except "newer".

Sure, the smaller ammunition manufacturers that specialize in higher velocity ammunition are often mentioned for their 357SIG loads, and their velocities ARE significantly faster than the major manufacturer's loads, including the commonly accepted L/E loads in 357SIG ... But, the commonly adopted L/E ammunition in this caliber doesn't offer much more than 50-150fps "advantage" in velocity over the "common" +P & +P+ 9mm L/E loads, and it's closer to 50-100fps in most cases.

All things being equal, the major manufacturer's 357SIG loads aren't able to offer any significant advantage in most "performance" aspects, even if they do offer 50-150fps faster velocities.

I think handloading & custom/performance ammunition can offer some interesting loads in this caliber ... which can also be said for 10mm & .41 Magnum ... but then there's the increased wear & tear on the platforms. 357SIG IS harder on pistols, even those pistols designed from the drawing board for this caliber. That's a fairly common theme if you talk to ammunition companies, armorers & firearms manufacturers.

There are some excellent pistols chambered for it, and many folks like it. Terrific. I'm always in favor of anything that generates production of quality firearms and encourages shooting sports ...

We may be living in the peak period of the caliber's popularity, though ... The accumulating "street results" haven't exactly shown this caliber to be the "Thor's Hammer" of the pistol ammunition world, so far ...

Let's talk about it over a beer in another 6-8 years ... ;)

[fastbolt]

Oh, and in a good-natured response to the comment, have someone hit you with a volkswagon doing 5 mph then 15, 10 mph difference right? which one hurts worse? ...

I'd submit that a more fair comparison of the 9mm +P/+P+ & 357SIG velocity issue might be better phrased ... which would hurt worse, being hit by a VW traveling at 65mph, or 75mph?

I think it hardly matters ... :cool:

[Preacherman]

Street results with the 357 SIG are pretty impressive, certainly better than the 9mm +P or +P+ rounds - at least, that's the feedback I get from reading LE post-shooting reports. There have been a number of comparisons between the 357 SIG in 125gr. JHP and the .357 Magnum in the same bullet type and weight. Several Texas cops have commented that both of these rounds produce the "hit-by-a-lightning-bolt" effect when perps are struck with them. I've not seen the same comments about 9mm., even in the higher-velocity loads.

There seems to be a "sweet spot" in handgun performance where energy is above 450-500 fpe, velocity is above 1100 fps, and bullet weight is 125-165 gr. Rounds that deliver excellent results in this range include the Cor-Bon 165gr. JHP and Pow'rBall in .45 ACP, the 155gr. and 165gr. JHP's in .40 S&W, the 357 SIG and .357 Magnum in 125gr. JHP, and the 10mm. The .357 Magnum is still the "gold standard" of street stopping power as far as many cops are concerned, and the loads mentioned above come within a few percentage points of its stopping performance. The high-velocity 9mm. loads are a little behind, but not so much as to be of major concern. I agree that they do offer faster recovery from recoil in most guns, which may be of importance for rapid follow-up shots.

[jc2]

Street results with the 357 SIG are pretty impressive, The results that I've seen from LE shootings has the 9x19 Ranger T loads (RA9T and RA9TP) running neck and neck with the 357 Sig--i.e, no significant difference. In fact, the last information I've seen on the RA9T had it effective in two shots or less in 113 out of 114 shootings (with the one shooting being simultaneous multiple hits so no it didn't count). The 357 Sig is just plain not beating the performance of the RA9T.
There seems to be a "sweet spot" in handgun performance where energy is above 450-500 fpe, velocity is above 1100 fps,
First, there is ammunition in that range that does not deliver adequate anti-personnel performance because of bullet design. There is plenty of ammunition that falls outside that "sweet spot" that delivers as good (or better) results (e.g., the aforementioned RA9T). Your inclusion of the 165-grain .45 ACP is at best problematical in that they really has not been an extensive of this weight in the .45 ACP (and the fact the top-performing bullets in .45 ACP are all 230-grain). While the 125-grain SJHP .357 Magnum had fearsome reputation in the sixties and seventies, we need to remember a couple points: first and foremost, bullet design has come a long, long way in the last ten years (five years for that matter)--that energy level is no longer required to obtain adequate bullet performance; and secondly, in real life (and well-documented I might add), at least one major LEA has stepped up and publicly admitted that the 180-grain .40 S&W ( a round outside your "sweet spot") performed better in actual use (actual "street results" for their agency) than the mythical .357 Magnum 125-grain SJHP it replaced.

Velocity/energy alone never has been the wounding the agent in handgun ammunition--it has always been the bullet. Historically, it has taken more velocity/energy to insure adequate performance (penetration and expansion) from a bullet--SuperVel was not "better" because it delivered more velocity/energy; it was better because it delivered enough velocity/energy that the bullets of that generation worked most of the time (hence, false assumption that velocity/energy alone is better), but with the current state of bullet design, we have 147-grain .36 calibre bullets at 1000 fps delivering the same results as 125-grain .36 calibre bullets at 1350 fps. Fastbolt has the analogy right.

Barring any major ammunition developments (which I don't see), I believe we are seeing the peak in popularity for the 357 Sig. While it is a good round, it just plain doesn't do anything better than the current top 9x19 loads while proving itself much harder on the weapons chambered for it (and somewhat harder on the shooter as well). In a way, it's in the same position as the 10mm was--it doesn't offer any performance advantage (at least in anti-personnel terms) over it's competitors (and even as impressive as the list of agencies authorizing (not the same as using, BTW), it's still really not comparative in popularity/LE use to the 10mm in its heyday). It's kind of a pity because, even though it primary reason for existence was marketing (helping SIG reclaim some of the market share it lost to Glock by capitalizing on the myth of the 125-grain .357 Magnum), it is a good little round (albeit not without its problems). It may be a case of too little, too late--it is a good round, but it is just not a "better mousetrap."

[Vapor63]

Regardless of the Velocity and testing statistics, most people I know aren't blobs of gelatin nor do they wear 12 layers of denim. Regardless, the true proof is in actual use. Reports from police state how it has taken ragin pitbulls down on a single shot where 9mm takes 4-8. It takes armed felons down in one shot even when not hitting them in the chest. When youre defending yourself you should be thinking "how big of a bloody hole can I blow through this guys face" but rather incapacitate him as quickly and accuratley as possible. .357 SIG seems to manage, from the reports given by LEO's, better than 9mm and even .45 when shooting at auto glass. Simply it is more effecient to have a super fast round that can strike an opponent down as quickly as possible. If you can spray 25 9mm rounds at a felon from 30 yards and injure him its a lot less effecient than striking him down quickly from the same distance with 2 shots. .357 SIG not only has more outdoor animal protection use, but it's great for close environments as well especially where metal or glass is in the way. I don't think price matters when when your life is on the line and that extra 5 rounds won't matter if none of them knock them down. As more and more LEO's and agencies use it, the bigger the statistics and stories will grow, the more appealing it will be, and the more agencies and ranges will offer it. Its a rising star in terms of self-defense against humans and animals alike and will come to be known as such the more it is used.

Just my giant heap of biased propaganda-I mean 'advice'.:D

[EdipisReks]

Regardless of the Velocity and testing statistics, most people I know aren't blobs of gelatin nor do they wear 12 layers of denim. Regardless, the true proof is in actual use. Reports from police state how it has taken ragin pitbulls down on a single shot where 9mm takes 4-8. It takes armed felons down in one shot even when not hitting them in the chest. When youre defending yourself you should be thinking "how big of a bloody hole can I blow through this guys face" but rather incapacitate him as quickly and accuratley as possible. .357 SIG seems to manage, from the reports given by LEO's, better than 9mm and even .45 when shooting at auto glass. Simply it is more effecient to have a super fast round that can strike an opponent down as quickly as possible. If you can spray 25 9mm rounds at a felon from 30 yards and injure him its a lot less effecient than striking him down quickly from the same distance with 2 shots. .357 SIG not only has more outdoor animal protection use, but it's great for close environments as well especially where metal or glass is in the way. I don't think price matters when when your life is on the line and that extra 5 rounds won't matter if none of them knock them down. As more and more LEO's and agencies use it, the bigger the statistics and stories will grow, the more appealing it will be, and the more agencies and ranges will offer it. Its a rising star in terms of self-defense against humans and animals alike and will come to be known as such the more it is used.


false dichotomy and red herring abound.

[natedog]

Does the .357 Sig 125gr load really compare to the .357 Magnum 125gr load? Anyone have some velocity comparisons?

How much faster is the .357 Sig 125gr than the 9mm +P+ 125gr?

[jc2]

Reports from police state how it has taken ragin pitbulls down on a single shot where 9mm takes 4-8. It takes armed felons down in one shot even when not hitting them in the chest.
Yep--that's just about as good as the reports can get that say, "they all fall to hardball," or "the .45 ACP is effective 19 out of 20 times will ball ammo." What is really happening is actual LE usage is that it is performing no better than the top 9x19 loads (or any other top service loads). It's proving just another choice with nothing to distinguish (except maybe noise).
If you can spray 25 9mm rounds at a felon from 30 yards and injure him its a lot less effecient than striking him down quickly from the same distance with 2 shots.
By the same token, "you can spray 18 (taking into the reduced capacity) 357 SIG rounds at a felon from 30 yards and injure him, but its lots less efficient than striking him down from the same distance with 2 [well-placed 9x19] shots."
I don't think price matters when when your life is on the line and that extra 5 rounds won't matter if none of them knock them down.
BUT the 9x19 will "knock them down" (and has been "knocking them down") just as well as the 357 SIG. Price will matter when you shoot more, practice more, maybe get some good training, and become more proficient with your weapon because you can afford it.
As more and more LEO's and agencies use it, the bigger the statistics and stories will grow, the more appealing it will be, and the more agencies and ranges will offer it.
BUT that's not how it's working out. As more and LEOs and agencies use it, the statistics are showing it is no better (or no worse) than any of the other service calibres with which it is competing. It is becoming clear it is just another choice. If anything, its growth has pretty much leveled out (almost to the stagnation point). Its use is not growing all that rapidly at all. It's just not "taking off."
Its a rising star in terms of self-defense against humans and animals alike and will come to be known as such the more it is used.
Wishful thinking. It is proving no more capable than any of the other service rounds, and in fact is just another choice.

[Vapor63]

Can I have my colon back if your done with it? :D I'm gonna need to pull some answers out of it...

[krept]

it's cool to see responses from almost a year ago

Does the .357 Sig 125gr load really compare to the .357 Magnum 125gr load? IIRC the most significant difference is related to bullet construction. I think the renowned 125gr .357 Magnum bullets that established this cartridge's reputation violently expanded and even fragmented in the bad guys, causing much trauma.

My understanding is that with the current 357 SIG technology the bullets are frequently bonded or constructed in such a manner that they stay together much better than the older .357 Magnums. Therefore, more penetration and less violent expansion is the result. (could be wrong)

The velocities, IIRC, are very similar with the 125gr bullets.

How much faster is the .357 Sig 125gr than the 9mm +P+ 125gr?

Sean posted this a little further back...
127 @ 1250 ft/sec (Winchester 127gr +P+ 9x19)

or

125 @ 1,400 ft/sec (Pro Load .357 Sig Gold Dot)
125 @ 1,425 ft/sec (Cor-Bon .357 Sig JHP)

cheers

[outofbattery]

My favorite pistol is my Sig Pro 2340 in .357 Sig . Why ? I don't really know other than I'm able to shoot it as well , if not better 95% of the time than my 9mm and .45 Sigs , .40 Glock , .45 Kimber , .40 Browning , 9mm Smith and Wessons and .357 Ruger but most importantly it's lots of fun and I fully trust it . Does it matter to me if it offers marginally better performance than 9mm or +/- /= .357,.40,.45 ? Nope , if I didn't think any of the above would get the job done I wouldn't own and carry them . I'd rather rely on what I know I can shoot well than worry about what does what to blocks of jello or clay . I'm not a law enforcement professional , I just play one on weekends , but from most I have seen and read about LE shootings it's all about shot placement : I happen to feel like I can place my 115gr CorBon's close enough where I need them to feel safe with my Sig on my hip and that's all I really care about .

Disregarding that fact than 99.98% of us will never be in a position to make any of this bench talk relevant , .357Sig is lots of fun to shoot . If you don't like it : fine , but it's proven to be as effective as anything else within reason and the issues of relative cost and reduced lifespan aren't really show stoppers for anyone that owns multiple pistols and shoots them regularly anyway .

[jc2]

I'd rather rely on what I know I can shoot well than worry about what does what to blocks of jello or clay .
That's the key. It's all about the shooter, what fits the shooter, and with what the shooter is comfortable. When it comes to the service calibres, the calibre of the weapon does not make a difference--the shooter and the weapon do.

The best thing anyone can do is forget all the silly calibre debates, pick a weapon that fits you, and you can shoot well the practice and train (a lot).

[pwrtool45]

My caliber can beat up your caliber.

[stealthmode]

my head hurts reading all this back and forth:banghead:

[rolltide]

The 357sig will remain a significant caliber because:

1. There is a prominent trend for major calibers in small packages (i.e. Glock, Kahr, Kel-Tec) due to CCW laws being passed in most states now. The 357sig has the best stopping record in barrels 4" or less**:

357sig - Rem 125gr JHP - 91% stops in actual shootings
45acp - Rem 185 gr GS - 90% stops in actual shootings
40s&w - 3 different loads Speer 155gr GD, Rem 165gr GS, Corbon 135gr JHP -
89% stops in actual shootings

** 357mag in 4" revolver is still No. 1 at 96%, but the smaller semi-autos are nearly 50% smaller and much more concealable and much more popular with CCW holders for that reason.

2.While the top 3 stoppers in ultra compact guns are statisically equal in stopping power, the 357sig is probably the most accurate of the 3 top loads. Since the first three rules of surviving a gun fight are:
1. Shot Placement
2. Shot Placement
3. Shot Placement
The most accurate round wins.

3. Of these top 3 rounds in ultra compact guns, the 357sig is probably the most managable in the recoil department, considerably smaller than the compact 45's and considerably more accurate than the 40's.

4. One of the reasons that the Texas DPS switched to this caliber is the anecdotal evidence coming back from LEO's in their own department citing actual shootings where the "struck by lightining" effect of a single shot of 357sig has been observed.

So at present, the 357sig has the edge in the class of gun that is coming to be the most popular class of handgun for defense - the ultra compact gun in major caliber. While these top 3 may be about equal, it is hard to simply disregard the top performing caliber in this pouplar category.

Roll Tide
http://www.geocities.com/mgsdrs/DARE.jpg

[cratz2]

I think the 9mm, 357 SIG, 40S&W, 10mm and 45ACP are the top five choices in self defensive chamberings in pistols. A reliable gun loaded with top ammo in any cartridge will do a reasonable job of doing what a handgun can be expected to do... I just don't see why there is always such arguing over trivialities... :p

If shooting a bad guy through a car door, I'd probably favor the 357 SIG. If shooting directly into soft tissue, I'd lean towards the 45ACP. For general every day carry by a civilian, I could live with any of the five as long as I was comfortable with the platform.

Having said that, I daily carry a 9mm and I can't personally see making the jump to 357 SIG in the same platform. I'd rather make the jump to 40S&W or even... shudder... 45GAP.

:uhoh:

As to the original question, I don't believe it will be fading away into oblivion anytime soon. It is a formidable cartridge, esp for highway patrol and state police as well as many other users. As lawdog pointed out, it has been adopted and/or issued by several major agencies and I just don't think it will be reduced to 41AE status anytime soon.

[MJRW]

"1. There is a prominent trend for major calibers in small packages (i.e. Glock, Kahr, Kel-Tec) due to CCW laws being passed in most states now. The 357sig has the best stopping record in barrels 4" or less**:

357sig - Rem 125gr JHP - 91% stops in actual shootings
45acp - Rem 185 gr GS - 90% stops in actual shootings
40s&w - 3 different loads Speer 155gr GD, Rem 165gr GS, Corbon 135gr JHP -
89% stops in actual shootings"

While it was nice of you to take the portions of the marshall and sanow study which most endorse your argument, even their evidence has various .45, 9mm, and .40 loads exceeding 91% if I recall. I think they even show a .380 load having a 91% stop rate. But that M&S data is damn near useless. It has so many flaws it needs to be completely ignored. There are only two things that are really comparable when talking about effectiveness, in my opinion: penetration and expansion.

"** 357mag in 4" revolver is still No. 1 at 96%, but the smaller semi-autos are nearly 50% smaller and much more concealable and much more popular with CCW holders for that reason."

Even if M&S data didn't have .357 mag being the king of that hill, it would still be popular as a result of the popularity of the round and the revolver package.

"2.While the top 3 stoppers in ultra compact guns are statisically equal in stopping power, the 357sig is probably the most accurate of the 3 top loads. Since the first three rules of surviving a gun fight are:
1. Shot Placement
2. Shot Placement
3. Shot Placement
The most accurate round wins."

I've yet to notice a real difference between various rounds fired from the same gun. There is nothing magic about the .357 sig which makes it seek its target regardless of shooter input.

"3. Of these top 3 rounds in ultra compact guns, the 357sig is probably the most managable in the recoil department, considerably smaller than the compact 45's and considerably more accurate than the 40's."

While it may the most managable of those three, if you put 9mm in there you find yourself in the #2 spot for managable recoil.

"4. One of the reasons that the Texas DPS switched to this caliber is the anecdotal evidence coming back from LEO's in their own department citing actual shootings where the "struck by lightining" effect of a single shot of 357sig has been observed."

A lot of stories get told in Texas. Of the millions of Texas tales, exactly four of them are actually true.

"So at present, the 357sig has the edge in the class of gun that is coming to be the most popular class of handgun for defense - the ultra compact gun in major caliber. While these top 3 may be about equal, it is hard to simply disregard the top performing caliber in this pouplar category."

Top performer? In which category? It doesn't beat .45 or .40 in expansion. It doesn't beat 9mm in managable recoil or capacity. It may beat some types of .40, .45, or 9mm in penetration but lose to others depending on which .357 sig you use. I think it is only just as good as the other major calibers out there. Not an unignorable magic sword.


To address the original post:

That said, I think it will fall into the niche market category. Enough people still consider the .40 to be the unnecessary compromise between .45 and 9mm. While LEAs may have taken to the .40, it doesn't seem to me that shooters have embraced it at a level nearly proportional to the number of LEOs using it. I don't think the market is there for the .357 sig. Making a round that is the bastard child of the .40 and 9mm may just be sticking a hose in the ocean. I do like the round, though. I prefer shooting it over .40, but not over 9mm or .45.

[rolltide]

MJRW,
I would not swallow everything I read over at firearms tactical (I read it a long time ago), although there is some very good information there about different rounds. We are having this discussion about M&S in another thread here. You may want to check out some of that discussion.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93133

1. The 9mm only has one round at 91% and it is +P+ so it will void your warranty on most guns and will probably shoot most small guns loose in short order. I have never seen ANY 380 round at 91%. Tops for the 380 is 71%, only slightly better than the 32acp and the 38 snubsnose at 66% and 67% respectively. The best standard velocity 9MM load is 82%, about half way between the 380 and the top major calibers.

2. That same 91% load drops to 84% effectiveness when shot out of 4" barrels or less (which is the class of guns I was discussing in my previous post on this thread.) Likewise, the loads I listed for the 45 and 40 are the very best loads in barrels 4" or less, not loads taken out of context to prove my point. Taking the top numbers for a caliber IN FULL SIZE GUNS and assuming those numbers apply to COMPACT SIZE GUNS is a VERY COMMON MISTAKE.

3. That +P+ 9mm load in a 4" barrel or less probably does not have less recoil than the 357sig, even though it has much less stopping power in short barrels.

4. You got me on the Texas tall tales. I can't argue with you much on that point (I lived in Texas for about 6 years), except I think that Texas DPS officiers know where the tall tales stop when discussing a subject that could mean life or death for themselves or their brother or sister officiers.

5. I never claimed there to be anything "magic" about the 357sig, but it is the top stopper, marginally, in barrels 4" or less (except the 357mag out of a revolver) as I stated above. In full size guns I prefer the 357mag revolver or the 45acp for personal defense. Even in a full size gun, you have to push the 9mm so far past safe pressures to get comparable stopping numbers that I am just not comfortable with that. If you get a little bullet setback in a 9mm +P+ round, you could wreck a gun and maybe your own face while you are at it. When I want the most effective round in the smallest package, the 40s&w or the 357sig definitely beat everything else (but I am EXTREMELY careful about bullet setback with these rounds as well, even though these guns are designed for the higher pressures.) I carry an AMT BACKUP in 40s&w quite often. I may switch to the 357sig in the same gun after I have had a chance to test fire enough rounds in the gun to prove it to be 100% reliable (like it is with the 40s&w.) I may stick with the 40s&w though, because Corbon has their Power Ball ammo with the polymer tip and a rolled groove on the case behind the bearing surface on the bullet. This makes bullet setback VERY unlikely in this round and it is my carry load mainly for that reason. I understand that some 357sig bullets are actually superglued into the cases because there is so little bullet to case bearing surface due to the bottleneck case. That, to me, is the biggest drawback of the 357sig round in general. It must be pointed out the the 357sig must be generally safe in this respect since it has been adopted by so many LEO agencies.

Best Regards,

Roll Tide

[MJRW]

When did I ever reference firearmstactical.com? I didn't. You seem to zealously believe in the M&S information even though it is clear from simple inspection that it has some major flaws.

1. Why are you talking standard velocity when 9mm is safely capable of more? I mean if the goal is to get "stopping power", why are we excluding some rounds which make your poster child seem less relatively effective.

2. Do those same numbers drop for .357 out of compact guns? What are the "stopping power" stats for .357 sig out of full sized vs compact guns? You never addressed that at all and the numbers from your post I found correspond to full size guns. Taking the top numbers for a caliber IN FULL SIZE GUNS and assuming those numbers apply to COMPACT SIZE GUNS is a VERY COMMON MISTAKE.

3. What is the "stopping power" of a 115 or 125 grain +p+ load out of a short barrel?

4. No comment.

5. "It must be pointed out the the 357sig must be generally safe in this respect since it has been adopted by so many LEO agencies." No, it mustn't be. One has nothing to do with the other.

[fastbolt]

Well, it's been about a year since I've seen this particular thread ... and very little has changed, including my opinions.;)

The 357SIG hasn't yet taken the world by storm ... it still seems to be much more popular among gun magazine writers and the general public than among L/E agencies ... and people are still discussing the M&S publications (which is probably good for commercial sales, if nothing else) ...

Winchester has provided a new Bonded 357SIG load, though, which appears to offer some improvement over the T-Series at the same velocity (1350fps as factory rated). The published factory testing indicates the potential for the new Bonded 357SIG load to perhaps "equal" the performance in the Auto Glass Barrier test of the Winchester .40 S&W, .45 ACP & 45 G.A.P. offerings in the T-Series line. On the other hand, while it appears to offer the user a bit "more" potential penetration in some of the other Ballistics test situations, like the Bare Gel, 4-Ply Denim & Heavy Cloth testing, it seems to exhibit just a bit "less" penetration in the Steel Barrier test than the T-Series 357SIG load.

It's sort of interesting that the new Bonded load in 357SIG just about "duplicates" the performance of the 147gr 9mm T-Series load, even in the Steel test, with an "edge" going to the 147gr load regarding expansion ... with the exception of the Auto Glass test, in which the 357SIG offers a slight advantage.

Aside from increased muzzle velocity, muzzle blast & perceived recoil ... the 357SIG is still apparently offering the reduced capacity of .40 S&W pistols, and the defensive "performance" of some of the better 9mm rounds. Granted, a lot of folks may enjoy an exhilarating range session, due to the "fun" of increased muzzle blast and some snappier perceived recoil in some loads.:)

It's still just another choice ... and I think the introduction of the 45 G.A.P. is going to eclipse the 357SIG for a while, if only because it's now being offered in 230gr loads as well as the earlier 185gr & 200gr loads ... and the "mystique" of the .45 ACP attracts some folks, and it's produced in a smaller platform similar to the 9mm & .40 S&W pistols (and yes, the 357SIG) ...

Time will tell ...

[fastbolt]

Oh yeah, since some folks bring up the subject of dogs every once in a while ...

Dogs acting in a feral manner, and presenting the immediate threat of serious bodily injury or death to a person, are difficult to "stop". I've listened to other cops discuss their experiences, too, including how their newest "powerful" .40 S&W pistols "failed" to quickly stop a charging, threatening, vicious dog with multiple hits. It can happen.

On the other hand, I know a fellow that reacted to an attack by a large dog (pit), and his "close combat" single shot with a generic 147gr 9mm JHP "dropped" the dog in mid-leap, killing it, as it was described. What's that mean? Is the 147gr 9mm JHP suddenly the "best" load & caliber for this sort of perceived danger? Of course not.

It may mean the fellow's training and reaction under the stress of a perceived deadly threat was sufficient for the situation, though, and he experienced proper shot placement for his needs at the time ... ;)

These are just defensive handguns, you know ... not rifles or shotguns.

[Tamara]

I mostly opened this thread just out of curiousity. I was wondering how many posts it would take for jc2 to show up and start flashing .357 Magnum gang signs. ;)

Anyhow...

While it has enjoyed lmited some success in the LE market, it is really very, very small in terms of both total LE agencies and individual LEOs--the 10mm probably saw wider use as a LE round in its time.

Demonstrably false. .357SIG has already lasted longer as a major LE cartridge than 10mm, and is used by more agencies than 10mm was in its fifteen minute heyday. (Bear in mind, I own three 10mm's and no .357SIGs, nor do I have a desire to own any; I ain't here to flash gang signs.)

Nobody said the 357 Sig wasn't faster, you just don't gain anything in terminal effectiveness from that few fps difference in MV.

I'll remember that the next time he touts the .357 Magnum. ;) Why not just carry a .38 Spl +P? Much less wear & tear on the gun, you know...

[jc2]

Hey, Tam, you didn't open this thread-- walking arsenal did (almost a year ago--6 Aug 03). I don't think you even posted in this thread before today, did you? Heck, the stuff your quoting I posted almost a year ago.

I though part of your charter as a moderator was to try keep personal crap like this from happening--not trying to stir it up. That's not exactly the "High Road" is it? ;)

BTW, I only "tout" the .357 Magnum when some of the 10mm "true-believers" become a little to fervent in the proselyting (and to occassionally pull their chain). It's good to remind them that the lowly 75 year old .357 Magnum actually generates more KE out of a four-inch revolver than a 10mm does out of Glock 20.

When it comes to carrying, I never have (and never would) carry the super hot 125-grain SJHPs. I do like the 145-grain Silvertip though, but to be honest, I'd just as soon carry the old FBI load if lead wasn't such a mess. Heck, I carry (and recommend) the 147-grain Ranger T in 9x19. I'm definitley not a "velocity freak."

You're barking' up the wrong tree here, ol' gal! :p

[BryanP]

Hey JC2, as a fellow .357 magnum enthusiast I have to jump in here.

Hey, Tam, you didn't open this thread-- walking arsenal did (almost a year ago--6 Aug 03). I don't think you even posted in this thread before today, did you? Heck, the stuff your quoting I posted almost a year ago.

I suspect that by "opened" she meant "clicked on the thread to see what was in here", not "started." I opened a good book today but I didn't write it.


I though part of your charter as a moderator was to try keep personal crap like this from happening--not trying to stir it up. That's not exactly the "High Road" is it?

She may be a moderator but moderators are still entitled to their opinions. They're even entitled to make jokes and poke fun at people. I didn't see any personal attack in her message. Just a wink and a grin.

BTW, I only "tout" the .357 Magnum when some of the 10mm "true-believers" become a little to fervent in the proselyting (and to occassionally pull their chain).

Looks like Tamara was pulling your chain and you fell for it. :D

[jc2]

Looks like Tamara was pulling your chain and you fell for it.
Naw, it was offered in the same spirit--go back and read my last sentence!

[BryanP]

*blink* *blink* :uhoh:

That'll teach me to post when I'm half asleep. (gotta love allergies ...)

[walking arsenal]

I have to admit im fairly surprised at the resurfacing of this thread, for two reasons.

1. I opened this thread after receiving a glock 33 in .357 sig as a present from my dad and grandfather at my bachelors party (my bachelors party was held at a machine gun shoot, cool huh?) almost a year ago.

2. this thread popped back up almost to the date of when i posted it.

so far i like the round and its platform, it has performed well for me, i carry it daily.

My chosen loading for this gun is the 125 grn corbon jhp, which im also fond of.

up here in northern MN though the round isnt very popular and ammo is sometimes scarce or reaaaaaally expensive...........or both.

[JohnKSa]

up here in northern MN though the round isnt very popular and ammo is sometimes scarce or reaaaaaally expensive...........or both.I think you're mistaken. It costs exactly the same as anywhere else in the continental U.S.

http://www.grafs.com/
http://www.ammoman.com/

[jc2]

Only if you're willing to buy over the internet (and in the case of ammoman.com, in bulk)--not everybody wants to so. Frankly, it's hard to find and expensive (and a lot of the dealers don't even want to take a 357 SIG in because they sit around too long) here as well (Central Texas) unless you want to drive two or three hours. Some folks just prefer to be able to run to a local gunshop or Wal-Mart and buy what they need--not always possible with the 357 SIG.

[JohnKSa]

Only if you're willing to buy over the internet...not everybody wants to...Do you think it's the great prices, not having to leave the house, or perhaps not paying sales tax that dissuades most people from buying on the web? ;)

I suppose in the case of the two companies I listed, the free shipping might scare some folks off. :) :)

[jc2]

I don't know why. It's about the only way I buy ammunition, but a lot times when you recommend it as a way to say money or get hard to find ammo, they're just not interested. I guess it's just not for everybody.

FWIW, you don't really save any money by buying 9x19 over the internet--I can buy 9x19 locally (and pay the tax) as cheap as I can over the internet without the hassle.

[rolltide]

MJRW,
The numbers I have quoted are just as I have said. If I said they were from short barrels, that is correct. If I said they were from standard barrels, that is also correct.

The best 357 sig number in a standard barrel is 92% and the best from a 4" barrel or less is 91%. That is exactly my point and what makes the 357sig unique because it retains most of its stopping power even in short barrels. That is what will probably help keep it around for a good long time.

It sounds like you want to argue just for the sake a arguing, so I will leave the argument to you and move on. I have said about all I know (and it didn't take long) in response to the original question on this post. Anything else would be repetition, digression or bickering and I respect everyone here too much to go there.

Best regards,
Roll Tide

[JohnKSa]

you don't really save any money by buying 9x19 over the internet--I can buy 9x19 locally (and pay the tax) as cheap as I can over the internet without the hassle.I suppose you are referring to the hassle of being able to order from your keyboard. :D You are absolutely correct about 9mm. On the other hand, the less popular calibers like .357 SIG, (to pick a random example) are typically quite a good deal on the net. ;)

[twoblink]

It's gotta be a cost issue...

For selfD, maybe better, but for punching paper, a 9mm is just fine and 50% cheaper..

[jc2]

I suppose you are referring to the hassle of being able to order from your keyboard. You are absolutely correct about 9mm. On the other hand, the less popular calibers like .357 SIG, (to pick a random example) are typically quite a good deal on the net.
No, the hassle can be finding it (if you don't know where to look or you normal supplier don't have what you want), using a credit card, checking the charges, tracking the shipment, messing with UPS (or FedEx), etc. It's a whole lot easier just pop down to the local firearms emporium, pick-up what you want, write a check and go shoot. Generally speaking, internet shopping is relatively hassle-free (if you have/use credit cards) but not always--I've have been charged more than I should have been, experienced delays (sometimes quite lengthy) in shipping, had UPS leave not leave the shipment (or leave it at the wrong address), had UPS leave it setting up my front porch in a pouring rain (ever had a 1000 loose rounds in your front yard--that needed mowing :) ).

The other thing you are forgetting, is that for the most part, you really have to buy in bulk to realize any savings over the internet (even with the hard to find calibres like the 357 SIG)--particularly if you are buying from suppliers that actually have a wide selection of ammo (e. g., Natchez). There's a lot of people who may not want to lay out for 500 rounds of ammunition at one time, or who don't shoot enough to make it worthwhile.

For me, the internet is generally the best source for ammunition (even though it's not as hassle-free as you represented), but I shoot a lot of ammunition, can afford to spend two or three hundred dollars at one shot for ammunition and am not afraid to use my credit card over the internet, but I am probably the exception not rule.

It really boils down to most people really need to shoot a lot more than they do, and it's considerably less expensive and easier to do it with a 9x19 than a 357 SIG. When you couple that with the fact that there is not enough difference in effectiveness between the 9x19 and 357 SIG to make a difference, the 9x19 just makes better sense (unless you're a hobbyist or just like loud noise ;) ).

[JohnKSa]

finding it ...using a credit card, checking the charges, tracking the shipment, messing with UPS (or FedEx), etc. ...I've have been charged more than I should have been, experienced delays (sometimes quite lengthy) in shipping, had UPS leave not leave the shipment (or leave it at the wrong address), had UPS leave it setting up my front porch in a pouring rain (ever had a 1000 loose rounds in your front yard--that needed mowing ).

The other thing you are forgetting, is that for the most part, you really have to buy in bulk to realize any savings over the internet (even with the hard to find calibres like the 357 SIG)--particularly if you are buying from suppliers that actually have a wide selection of ammo (e. g., Natchez). There's a lot of people who may not want to lay out for 500 rounds of ammunition at one time, or who don't shoot enough to make it worthwhile.Geeminy! I guess I've been doing it wrong--I just place the order and pick it up from the doorstep when it gets here. Maybe I've just been lucky with the last 20K rounds or so... :D

[jc2]

Overall, I've been lucky though I've been a less than happy camper a few times (and I buy about 90% of ammo on-line). I have on a couple of occassions been overcharged (usually on S/H), Georgia Arms has sent me the wrong ammo twice, and another company once. Unfortunately, there's been a time or two when the order has been really slow getting here when I needed it NOW. Part of my problem with UPS is that I now live in an apartment, and the office is not always open when UPS delivers, but the rain story was before I moved, and while I exagerrated the consequences a little, it really was a big mess. I daresay you watch it your transactions a little closer than you're admitting--or maybe I just like to keep better track of my money and my ammo than you do. I hope you good luck continues, but I've been ordering on line for well over ten years so I guess if you do anything long enough something can go wrong.

I usually recommend it when asked and am surprised by the number of people who simply don't want to do it for one reason or another. I think, sometimes, those of us who are relatively gun savvy and computer literate just assume everybody else is naturally, but it doesn't really seem to work out that way.

We're way off topic here. Are you about ready to can this line of exchanges?

[JohnKSa]

We're way off topic here.How do you figure? Ammo availability is surely one of the major factors in the viability of any caliber--.357SIG included.

[jc2]

Because we're really not talking about ammo availability. We're really talking about the trials and tribulations of mail order ammunition, and maybe the fact that some people just flat won't do it (mail order ammo). It really has nothing to do with the 357 SIG (and probably more with you just wanting argue :p ).

[JohnKSa]

not talking about ammo availability...talking about the trials and tribulations of mail order ammunitionTribulations of mail order ammo = ammo availability issue. On this planet, anyway. :)probably more with you just wanting argue :D :D A brief search of .357Sig threads will prove just how amusing this statement is.

[Gameface]

Talking about being off topic…

I just have to chime in. The statement “there's been a time or two when the order has been really slow getting here when I needed it NOW,” Really got me laughing. It just made me think of a situation where you’ve got somebody beating in your front door and you run to the computer to order ammo for your 357sig.

Sorry jc2 but I thought it was funny.

Gameface

[jc2]

An amusing thought--and a good comment on depending on the internet for your ammunition.

My situation wasn't as dramatic. I had a weekend of shooting planned (on my only free weekend that month), and of course, the ammo didn't come until the following Tuesday (and yes, I had ordered early). Fortunately, it wasn't a calibre for I was dependent on the internet for ammunition.

The internet is in general a convenient and less expensive alternate source of ammunition. I think it is foolish (or at least very poor planning) to be totally dependent on it for your ammunition. If there is not at least fairly reasonable, dependable source supply for your ammunition locally, you really should be looking at a different calibre.