[miatchguy]

This is a very stupid question I'm about to ask and I know that. I understand how fully-automatics work, double actions, single actions etc. But one thing I don't get is what keeps a semi-automatic from being a fully-automatic. After it is fired once and you keep holding the trigger, what keeps the hammer from firing again?

[Kaylee]

little piece of metal called a disconnecter. Works a little different in different designs.

Any particular semi-auto you're thinking of?

=K

[MicroBalrog]

little piece of metal called a disconnecter.


Must... suppress... desire.... to remove...:D

[fish2xs]

MicroB -

of all the posts I've read since my discovery of THR some months
ago, your terse comments are consistently the funniest.

You amuse me - you know like Joe Peschi (sp?) in 'Good Fellas'. :)

Keep it up. I read this stuff at work. :banghead:

[Kharn]

Here's two CGI pics of how the 1911 works, the disconnector is the dark grey vertical piece that moves up and down:
http://www.m1911.org/images/searanim.gif
Notice how when the trigger is pulled, the disconnector no longer touches the sear until pressure is relieved from the trigger, this keeps the 1911 from firing as soon as the slide closes.
http://www.m1911.org/images/searanim2.gif
Another pic showing how all the parts work together.

Kharn

[MicroBalrog]

What does the word "terse" mean?

[TallPine]

I read a book about JMB

It seems his first "automatic" was an old lever action that he modified by adding a flapper (with a hole in it for the bullet to exit) mounted externally on the muzzle with a connecting rod to the lever.

Pretty crude experiment, but IIRC it dumped all six rounds out in about 3 seconds, somewhat to his surprise. :eek:

The part of the lever that your fingers go in must have been cut off, though :confused:

[fish2xs]

terse - Brief and to the point; effectively concise: a terse one-word answer.

[Bravo11]

Nice animation Kharn,
Did you create that model?
If so what program did you use.

[Kharn]

I should have said where I found it from, www.m1911.org I'm clueless when it comes to CGI stuff (I'm a network guy).

Kharn

[Bravo11]

I usually try to hit the 1911 forum and 1911.org pretty regularly, I guess I missed that one. I'm in CAD and we create animations similar to that demonstrating designs.

[MicroBalrog]

Notice how when the trigger is pulled, the disconnector no longer touches the sear until pressure is relieved from the trigger, this keeps the 1911 from firing as soon as the slide closes.

So the disconnector is what a gunsmith should modify/remove to make (theoretically) a full-auto 1911?

[Wanderer]

Yeah, then get a 15 round mag for it and you're all set. :evil:

[MicroBalrog]

Yeah, then get a 15 round mag for it and you're all set.

I can't have a 1911 anyway (I'm not in America, remember?), and KNOWING this is not a crime.

[Kharn]

If you wanted a crappy fullauto hack job, yes, a modified disconnector would work. But thats the totally wrong way to go about achieving full auto with a 1911. During the 1920s and 1930s, I believe select-fire 1911s were able to be had (Bonnie and Clyde had one, with a Tommy gun's vertical fore-grip added to the dust cover, a full auto 1911 is not easy to hold onto), one of those would be much safer.

Kharn

[MicroBalrog]

But theoretically the conversion is possible and even easy, right?

That's what I want to know.

[Archangel]

Like Kharn said, totally wrong way to go about it. If you simply remove the disconnector, one of three things could happen.

1. The hammer will follow the slide forward, but not ignite the next round, leaving you with the hammer down, live round in the chamber.

2. The hammer will follow the slide forward, igniting the next round after the slide has gone completely into battery, giving you FA.

3. The hammer will follow the slide forward, igniting the next round before the slide has gone into battery. :eek:

[MicroBalrog]

If you simply remove the disconnector

Not remove, modify. Surely that wouldn't be too hard?;)

[cordex]

fish2xs,
What dictionary are you using? Mine just says:

terse
Pronunciation: 't&rs
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): ters·er; ters·est
Etymology: Latin tersus clean, neat, from past participle of tergEre to wipe off
Date: 1601
Definition: See C.R. Sam

[illuminatus99]

here's the real trick question, how do you get 3 round burst?

[fish2xs]

cordex: www.dictionary.com

[Sleeping Dog]

here's the real trick question, how do you get 3 round burst?

Method 1 - put 3 rounds in the mag of a full auto gun, let it rip.

Method 2 - put 1 round in each of three guns, then you and 2 buddies let it rip.


There's two parts to this full-auto stuff. Yeah, when you pull the trigger, you want to start spraying bullets. But, when you let go of the trigger, it would be nice if the shooting stopped. Can modifying the disconnector produce a runaway gun? (usually a bad thing)

Regards.

[cordex]

fish2xs,
Sorry, you're relatively new here. C.R. Sam is a member, moderator - and something of a cultural icon for all curmudgeons and curmudgeons-in-training - who is well-known for his compendious responses. Hence: "See C.R. Sam" as a definition for "terse".

Cordex can be seen at many local comedy clubs the night before they go out of business. He swears that this is simply a coincidence.

[4v50 Gary]

While the disconnector may be removed, the real issue is safety. It's best to leave the disconnector and disconnector spring alone.

You don't want the hammer to fall before the action is locked up. This could cause an ignition while the action is still unlocked (open). Besides damage to the gun, there's a possibility of injury to the shooter and to bystanders. Select fire firearms generally have a "trip" or auto-sear that "times" when the gun will fire. That timing is based on when it is safe for the hammer to drop. The M-14 did it through a connector that worked off the op-rod being closed (and along with it, the bolt). The M-16, German G-3 (and MP-5) also rely on a trip lever that operates off the position of the bolt carrier (bolt carrier on either and the bolt have to be in a certain forward position for the trip lever to operate). This ensures the operator that the gun in full auto mode discharges only when it's safe.

[TallPine]

What does the word "terse" mean?

It comes from a reference to the Tersians, an ancient people group from an area in northern Europe known as "Tersia"

No one is sure anymore exactly where Tersia was located.

The Tersians were a stern and hard-working people who spoke very little to outsiders, and were best known for their "Terse" replies, mostly consisting of "Nope" and "Ayup"

The Tersians were scattered from their ancestral homeland, and some migrated to the English isles, and later to North America, especially Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont.

[4v50 Gary]

Tersians ;) were probably distantly related to the Laconians who were known to speak sparingly. Yet when the Laconians spoke, people listened. The term "laconic" was coined after them. We also know them as Lacadaemonians, Spartiates and Spartans.

[Thrash1982]

megcatia:

It looks like the animations were made in 3D Studio MAX.

[Mike Irwin]

Years ago a friend's High Standard HD (?) .22 target pistol failed while we were shooting it.

Sometimes the gun will jam. Sometimes it will go full auto for a few rounds and jam.

This one, with this particular ammo, though, was stone cold reliable as an automatic pistol.

It would dump a magazine of 7 rounds in what seemed to be about 1/4 of a second, just BWAPPPP!

[Archangel]

Not remove, modify. Surely that wouldn't be too hard?

Good point. Modifying it into a "leave-connecteder" would produce the same results. To get safe FA you'd have to turn it into a "disconnect-and-then-reconnecter."

[Hkmp5sd]

Can modifying the disconnector produce a runaway gun? (usually a bad thing)

A very bad thing and a good reason not to take a file and make a "do it yourself" machinegun.

here's the real trick question, how do you get 3 round burst?

They use a cam that ratchets with every round fired. After the 3rd round, it allows the disconnector to catch the hammer until the trigger is released.

Yeah, then get a 15 round mag for it and you're all set.
I have a 30 round magazine for the 1911. Where can a get a select fire government model? :)

[Kaylee]

Since I gotta be a spoilsport (part of the job) just thought I'd reiterate Gary and Archangel's points -- homebrew auto conversions are a good way to end up in jail if you're lucky... and in the hospital with missing body parts if you're not.

Here follows the "dont try this at home" speech.

I once met a man shooting in the desert who modified his AR in a similar fashion. (No Mr. ATF man, at this point I couldn't even begin to describe him other than short, fiftysish, and in one of the many informal shooting spots in rural Idaho. Good luck finding him.)

Anyhow... at the time I thought his solution to the problem was a little crude, but clever. Knowing what I know now about the AR lockup.... it's a miracle he hadn't blowed himself up yet. :what:

So, for all the antis like to talk about how easy our Evil Black Semi-Autos are to convert to FA.... no, it ain't that easy. Sure you might be able to engineer a runaway gun (like the dude who accidentally stuck his SKS firing pin in backwards and ended up putting a round through his brainpan when he dropped the runaway rifle in surprise).. but unless you really know what you're doing, and have access to a good machine shop and the right parts it's not easy to make a good, reliable, SAFE full-auto.

(And if you have access to aforementioned shop and knowledge, you could make your own FA from scratch... coming soon to a neighborhood near you if we ever go the British way of gun control. )

Finally, being all law-abiding and such, I have to say that THR is not a place to discuss "how to" for breaking the law, stupid as the law is.

Thus ends the "dont try this at home" speech. Have a nice day.



-K

[C.R.Sam]

What Kaylee said.
Dont...
Discuss it here;
Don't ...
Do it at home.

Sam

[Art Eatman]

Tersians are rarely found in New York, California, or inside the Beltway.

:), Art

[Hkmp5sd]

Tersians are rarely found
in the democratic party or news media.

[Bravo11]

Thrash1982,
I was thinking 3D Max too.

[TallPine]

But a few Tersians made it to the more remote parts of Texas and Arizona. :)

[keyhole]

:D

Oh goody! A geography lesson!

I do have a friend, who has an AR that will occasionally go FA, especially when it's dirty.:rolleyes:

Bet it's due to worn out parts.

Pistol would be hard to control. Fun though:evil:

[AnotherLurker]

Glock full auto adapter -- Patent number: 5,705,763

US Patent office search page:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm


$350.00
http://www.rushusa.com/html/products/fssg.html

[miatchguy]

I would never have thought that a full-auto, a superior weapon, would be less complicated than a semi-auto.:D

[Kaylee]

I would never have thought that a full-auto, a superior weapon, would be less complicated than a semi-auto.

much simpler. Look up the schematics on a Sten sometime. Think "plumbing pipe, spring and a nail" more or less. Which again is why should we ever get *really* stringent gun control in the US, expect to start seeing homebrew Sten type zipguns popping up all over... cheap and easy to make.

I wouldn't call it "a superior weapon" though.

-K

[miatchguy]

Yeah, may not be a superior weapon in many cases, but for combat what, close range anyway, what it lacks in accuracy it makes up for in firing rate and then some.

[MeekandMild]

I think most of us in the Deep South have Loquacian ancestry. There was a family of Tersians up around Chattanooga but nobody would talk to them so they left.

After it is fired once and you keep holding the trigger, what keeps the hammer from firing again? If you're shooting an SKS the device which does this is called The Hand of Divine Providence and it is found somewhere in the heavens, only coming out on Sundays unless otherwise occupied.

[redneck2]

there are some less than knowledgable gunsmiths who will try to lighten the trigger of a 1911 too much, and they'll go full auto

have a friend who works at a gun shop, but when he was starting out, this happened to him

he said "Sounds like it'd be cool, but trust me, it isn't"

Suppose the gun recoils 30 degrees per firing....

after 6 shots it's turned over 180...


:what:

he got his stopped a little past over center. Coupla holes in the roof...

[miatchguy]

Ok, now I know how a semi-auto works; I know how a simple full-auto works, but I don't get how a select fire works. I can see how a semi-auto would be a full auto if that thing sticking out at the bottom of the disconnector we're a little higher so it wouldn't come out from under the hammer catch thing.(I'm usin' real technical terms:D.) But for a select fire what happens, does it just raise the disconector up? If so, how doesn't the sear get in the way? And for safety does the disconector just come al the way out of the catch?