[hawkeye1]

I bought 500 cast 40 caliber 155 grain SWC bullets from a guy at work. They look good and are lubed with Lee Tumbele Lube.

The problem is that when I seated them in the case I had about 4 of them literally break in half at about the case mouth. I asked the guy that cast them and he said I was using too much crimp. OK. I backed the crimp ALL the way out, and seated some more. Again, about 4-5 bullets broke off at the case mouth. Not a crimp problem. Is this bullet too hard? Has anyone ever run into this? I've been casting and reloading for 20 years and have never come across a bullet that broke in half.

Any info would be appreciated.

good shooting

[paperpuncher49]

hawkeye1

I quit casting in the early 80's but cast thousands of bullets prior to that time. In all my time, I never had a bullet break, and I've never heard of this happening. I would not think crimping would cause that problem. Lead, even when alloyed, is relatively soft. I think I would challenge the person who cast them to come to your place and show you just what it is that you are doing wrong. Should he not be able to "fix" the problem, it would be interesting to hear his explanation.

[rcmodel]

I would guess he is dropping them out of the mold into a bucket of water in a misguided attempt to harden them.

If the bullets are still too hot/soft inside they may crystalize when they hit the cold water.

It's also possible he is dropping them on a bench too hot/soft and they are cracking from the impact before they solidify completely.

NO cast bullet should break in two from any outside force except perhaps shooting them into a hard backstop. Even then, I would never expect it with pistol bullets, just very hard rifle bullets.

rcmodel

[Grizzly Adams]

I agree. I've been casting since the mid 70's and the only way I've ever heard of this is by cooling to fast by crystalizing when they hit water!

[ReloaderFred]

Interesting.... Pre-fragmented bullets. In all the years I've been casting, I've never been able to do that. Or, never had it happen.

Try crushing one of them slowly in a vise and see what happens. If it crumbles, rather than just deforms, there's the possibility of some zinc in that alloy, since zinc won't allow the lead molecules to bind.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[345 DeSoto]

I'll bet ReloaderFred hit it right on the head...

[GREYGHOSTt]

casted for years never had it that bad..
always droped im in cold water does a good hard shell outside
i think the guy is using a multi cavity mold and not getting all of the holes filled before moving on and coming back and finishing the pore causing a cold joint.:)

[GP100man]

are the boolits filled out nice & sharp corners?????
if not zinc for sure,how `bout it reloader fred the melt that i had zinc in would`nt cast for spit!!!

GP100man

[cpaspr]

The multi-cavity partial fill/finish fill was my first thought as well.

[ReloaderFred]

GP100man,

I've tried real hard to keep zinc out of my two lead pots for the last 40 years, so I really don't know how it casts. The only zinc bullets I've had were the old Winchester .357 Magnum Metal Piercing rounds they made for police work. It was just a thought about how the alloy was acting. I'm still curious about crushing the bullet in a vise to see how the alloy reacts.

Fred

[forquidder]

I'm with Greyghost on this one. Are there any detectable seam lines on the bullets when viewed under magnification? If you find seams on a couple bullets, try loading them and see if they break along that line.

[moosehunt]

Whether it is a multi cavity mold or not, I'm with the two pour theory. That was my initial thought; you guys beat me to putting it in print. You should be able to see evidence if you look close, but it is probably only in a few bullets, as you said, only 4 or 5 broke, so it might take a lot of looking to find another bad one, but I'm betting that's it.

[jon123]

I would guess he is dropping them out of the mold into a bucket of water in a misguided attempt to harden them.

If the bullets are still too hot/soft inside they may crystalize when they hit the cold water.

Just getting into casting but have been reloading for years. I plan on casting for 44 mag and will be using ww. My question is, how long will it take until you can drop the bullets into a bucket of water. I don't want them to crystalize :eek:

[rcmodel]

Once you start casting, you will be able to tell when you cut the sprue.
You can watch it cool, suck more lead into the mold, & then harden.
If you have to whack the sprue plate to cut it, that means the lead has pretty much set up in the center of the bullet.

If it cuts very easily and smears lead across the mold & sprue plate, you didn't wait long enough!

As for dropping into a bucket of cold water, I have never done it in my life, and never will.

At best, it hardens the bullet, and I do that by choosing the alloy I need for the intended purpose.
At worst, you start out with a bullet that is too hard and causes leading, and will change hardness anyway over the next 30 days or so.

I drop hot bullets on a folded up bath towel to cushion the fall, and let the bullets cool slowly on their own accord.

IMHO: Best to start out with a slowly cooled bullet that doesn't have a chance of crystallizing.
And won't change temper on me between the time I cast it, the time I load it, and the time I shoot it.

rcmodel

[ReloaderFred]

I also drop the bullets onto a soft cloth and let them cool. In the past, I've oven tempered bullets, but it's a royal pain, and they do soften again over time, though slowly. It's just best to use an alloy suited to the purpose. Hardest isn't always best, nor is softer always best. Decide what you want the bullet to do, and then alloy your metal accordingly.

When bullets are dropped into water while still very hot, it hardens the outside of the bullet, but when it's run through a sizing die, it work softens the lead again to a certain degree. I've never found it worth the mess and effort, so I've just stuck with my old tried and true method, which works for me.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[WSM MAGNUM]

Crimping is not the problem, nor is heat treating or cold treating (dropping them in cold water) them the problem. That just gives the bullet a higher BHN. I think the problem is the guy that casted those bullets used Linotype in the lead. Linotype has a high antimony. Makes the bullets brittle. I can bet on it if you take those bullets and drop them on a concrete floor, every one of those bullets will break.

[ReloaderFred]

I cast some rifle bullets from straight linotype and they aren't brittle enough to break if dropped on the concrete floor. There's something else going on with these bullets.

The original poster, Hawkeye1, hasn't been back to tell us what he's found out about them, so everything else is just pure speculation on our part.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[rcmodel]

+1
Pure Linotype bullets won't break from dropping them on the floor, or from seating & crimping them.

I've used pure Linotype bullets, and alloyed Linotype with lead for 40 years.

And I have never seen one break from any normal reloading procedure, or rough handling.

The only bullet breakage I've ever seen was ones dropped from the mold while still mush inside.

rcmodel

[hawkeye1]

Wow, thanks for all the replies. I did not expect such a great turn out. This one had me stumped, but after reading the replies, some of them start to make sense.
First, the guy who cast these bullets does indeed add some linotype. That would explain the brittleness.

I just took one of the bullets from my can and put it on the concrete and smacked it with a hammer. It broke in half! From top to bottom. The others all broke off side to side at the top of the case. Leaving behind a crystal looking inside to the bullet. But as I said, the one I hit with a hammer broke top to bottom leaving the same crystal look inside.

So, the question then is, is this bullet brittle from too much linotype or is it crystalizing inside from something else? You guys seem to have some good thoughts on this "broken bullet" thing. I will be anxious to hear back. Lets keep up the brainstorming. I think we are about to figure this thing out.

As I said, I have never come across anything like this in 20 years of casting and reloading either.

good shooting

[rcmodel]

Sounds like he's got something in the Linotype besides pure Linotype.
Little too much antimony or zink wheel-weights perhaps?

If you think about it, type metal has to be fairly hard, but certainly not crystalized & brittle.

Printing presses used to put type through it's paces, and they can't be shut down resetting broken type every time they turn around.
Or they'd never have got the newspapers out on time! :D

rcmodel

[ReloaderFred]

Antimony is crystilline in it's pure form, but doesn't melt readily unless alloyed with tin and lead. For there to be enough antimony to cause what you describe, it would have to be a very high percentage, possibly as much as 20%, but that's just a guess on my part. Whatever it is, the person you bought the bullets from doesn't know his alloys and needs to return your money and probably look for another sideline....

Hope this helps.

Fred

[moosehunt]

Linotype won't make brittle bullets. Indeed, it is THE choice of a lot of old casters, but not vey available today. If these bullets have enough antimony in them to be brittle, then don't just get your money back! Sell them for the antimony content and make enough profit to buy a bunch of bullets! Antimony is pricy stuff. It's hard to believe they'd have that much in them, though. See if you can find out what temperatures this guy uses in his pot. If he's getting way up there, he could be melting zinc and getting it in the mix. At proper melting/casting temperatures, zinc won't melt and skims off with the dross, but if he's really getting things hot, could well be the answer.

[345 DeSoto]

I still maintain that there's Zinc in the mix, too. I'm wondering if they can all be remelted and the zinc skimmed, or once it's alloyed with the lead, is it there to stay...

[par0thead151]

newbie caster here...
how can i tell the difference between zinc and lead besides the throwing iton the floor and listening method?

[345 DeSoto]

The lead will melt at a lower temperature than the zinc. The zinc, steel mounting clips, "junk", and oxides will all float to the top as the lead melts. If the lead melting point temperature can't be regulated, then as soon as the lead looks all melted the dross needs to be quickly skimmed off the top. If in doubt, better to loose a bit of lead than to contaminate the whole pot...

[GP100man]

reloader fred
ive had a batch of about 28# that was (given) to me & i should have suspected summtin then but you know how it is ,you gotta know!!
i cast with a bottom pour now but then it was a ladle& no matter how hot & a dose of tin still no fill out!!
so i went on a pc binge & found
castboolits .com& glean info about temps that different metals melted .
found a thread talkin bout zinc & paid attention to what i was doin.
i melted the pot full all at one time to good & hot ,no fluxin & no stirin then i let the pot start coolin & the zinc started solidifying & i could skim this off ,now yer gonna dip some good off with the bad but i did this a few times & the finished alloy was used for plinkers,i didnt want to try it 50/50 with good metal ,since it only about 20# or so .
i should have made fishin sinkers with it ,too much time spent on the amount of return.
but we all do this to save $$ rite
LLLLOOOOLLLLL!!!!!!
wanted to add :i keep a pair of pliers when sortin out trash & valve stems ,any funny lookin ones that are either shaped funny or shiney gets the squeeze test ,then any ?? ones gets watched close in a small melt that i keep at 625F & i watch my smeltin close ,just as soon as the clips start floatin i start stirin & if you hit zinc weight youll hear it tink on the dipper

GP100man

[ReloaderFred]

GP100man,

I've been real lucky and been able to screen out any and all zinc over the years. It will mess up a pour and the bullets aren't worth a thing with zinc in them, unless they're pure zinc, such as the old metal piercing bullets I mentioned earlier. I just acquired another batch of wheel weights, and there is some zinc in there, which I'll screen out before I smelt it. I've also got about 300 pounds of linotype squirreled away that I use for special bullets.

Hope this helps.

Fred