[Telperion]

So I'm waiting in the lobby of my workplace at lunchtime, and I notice an armed courier from Brinks coming up to the front door. Nothing special there. Except just as he enters the building, he places his hand firmly on the pistol in his belt-side hoster, and proceeds to walk through the lobby like this. :what: I look around, noting exits and anything I can use for cover. :uhoh: I've never seen ANY armed professional walk around like this (and I've seen this same guy do it twice) -- you put your hand on your sidearm and you're telling me you're about to draw. Is this normal practice (!), or would I be justified in noting the car number and phoning them up?

[Skunkabilly]

I saw a team where one lady was cleaning out an ATM and the other guy stood behind her ready to draw. I thought he was gonna shoot her in the butt-tocks.

[Kharn]

Did his armored vehicle have a bumper sticker for www.realultimatepower.net on it?

Kharn

[Johnpl]

As a Little Leaguer, we used to stand outside local banks to ask for donations...we once saw the armored car guards with drawn handguns as they walked from the bank to the truck. They looked a little too nervous.

[Walosi]

If you have ever observed a cash transfer between an armored truck and a bank, you may have noticed that one guard carrys/wheels the transfer, a second accompanies him with his sidearm in his hand, and a third man is in the truck, next to a window and a gun port. A single courier, delivering negotiable or valuable documents may well be following procedure by keeping his hand on his holstered gun. He is uniformed, therefore easily spotted,and entry/exit from a lobby can be a sensitive point in his route for a quick "smash and grab" attempt. Once upon a time, guards/couriers were up for a large bonus for killing an armed robber. I would be observant, when you see him enter, and hit the floor if someone rushes him.

[TallPine]

Is this normal practice ?

I would hope so, if the guy wants to protect his cargo and stay alive.

What's the problem?

Maybe he should leave his gun in the car ... he can always run back and get it if he needs it ...:rolleyes:

[Chaz]

Did his armored vehicle have a bumper sticker for www.realultimatepower.net on it?

Thats about the funniest thing I've seen in a while!

Back in the 80's I used to see the armored car folks moving money into banks and department stores with thier pistols in thier hands down by thier legs all the time. No big deal to me.

[HankB]

I've seen armored car guards carrying their revolver (Always seemed to be a M-10 or M-15) down by their sides when carrying sacks of money from a store.

I've also heard that some uniformed private security guards have been issued FAKE guns for appearance sake - their employers don't want them to have real guns. Don't know if this includes armored car personnel . . .

[Telperion]

Ok, since it's acknowledged standard practice, I'll take a chill pill on this. Each of us needs one occasionally...

and hit the floor if someone rushes him.

You bet I will, especially since I've had the misfortune of watching a batch of these guys "qualify" at a local range.

[spacemanspiff]

geez! its just money!

a few years back i had to dissuade my mother (who is a Jehovahs Witness) from approaching an armored vehicle to offer the driver some literature.

[Walosi]

There is a team that picks up at one of the malls in the county seat here - heavy white van with Nashville registration nos., no company logo. They are in their mid-fifties, salt and pepper, with very nice custom leather and N FRAMES :) They were in a jewelry store when I took the wifes watch in. I commented on the Nill grips on one of their guns, and asked if they were 627s. The black guy grinned, and said "629s". I think it might be worth the drive down to watch these guys qualify.

[4v50 Gary]

Paranoid? Yep. Is there a reason? Yep. Armored car guys tend to get bumped off. That's one heckuva lousy job. Even if these guys wanted to give up the money, they may get killed. In Hayward, CA, one guy was killed by his partner (felon & ex-con who should never have a gun anyway) just for the $.

[Duncan Idaho]

I would probably have the money slung over my back (along with the shotgun) and have both hands on my pistols. Thank God I'm ambidexterous. ;) :p :D

[gunsmith]

I have caught crack heads sneaking up on me,armed
security lose guns that way all the time.
if I am in those neighborhoods while I am working
& I've got 10 thousand$$ 20 crackheads & 10 rounds
one in the pipe then yeah,I'm gonna be keeping
my hand on my gun.
Maybe they had been warned that there may be an attempt.
cops can stop some one for suspicious behavior,we've just got to
be ready for shootouts.

you might be surprised at how many idiots will
mess with you when your an armed courier

[Bart Noir]

Was out with the family, two half-grown girls included. We went to a store with an ATM, armored car guys were putting money in it. Then we went to another store with an ATM, same guys came along to put money in it. Then we went to a gas station with an ATM, same guys came along to service that one. At this point, I was the subject of some intense attention from the one that had his gun hand free. Don't blame him, after 3 places in a row. And I didn't even notice what the handgun was. That was the screw-up.

Bart Noir
When guns are outlawed, only outlaws and the government will have guns.

[DDGator]

I have never seen armored car guards with guns unholstered, but I have seen them with their hands on their guns in the holster, with the retaining strap clearly unfastened.

[Telperion]

Thanks for the insider perspective, gunsmith. Makes sense to me now.

[Quartus]

Oh, I wish I had been able to get a picture. It would fit in here perfectly. Picture this - I'm walking to the office from my hotel in Guangzhou, China. (Bout 18 months ago) Here's the local version of an armored car making a pick up from a bank. The "guard" looks all of 16 years old, and is wearing an Army looking uniform complete with steel pot, shiny leather belt with a diagonal belt across one shoulder. Nothing mounted on it - just for looks I guess.

He's glancing around, doing his best to look menacing, while holding a PPK sized piece in a firing grip (finger properly in register) with his left hand firmly grasping the slide, ready to rack in a round.

It was all I could do to keep from busting out laughing. :D

The "armored" vehicle itself was good for a laugh. Looked like a van version of a rice burner - covered in plastic "armor". Phony as a three dollar bill.

They had their first actual bank robbery in that city while I was there. I guess they're making progress towards capitalism! :D

[Correia]

I saw some guards doing a pickup from the bank in the student center at Utah State a long time ago. One guard had a Mossberg 500.

Only problem, it was the first week of school and the halls were packed. Hundreds and hundreds of people, walking literally shoulder to shoulder.

Just what the heck did he think he was going to accomplish with that shotgun? Buckshot in an area like that? Maybe a slug. (wonder how many people a slug will go through at close range?)

[Psssniper]

Big 5 sporting goods store, I am just wandering. Guard comes out of office bag in hand and gun drawn, and speedwalks out to the truck. The look of intensity on his face was interesting.

[DMK]

Only problem, it was the first week of school and the halls were packed. Hundreds and hundreds of people, walking literally shoulder to shoulder.

Just what the heck did he think he was going to accomplish with that shotgun? Perhaps crack the thief's skull with the butt stock.

[bogie]

Musta been a lot of cash...

Only time I've been surprised by displays of firepower was in the Army - The credit union on post would have MPs with shotguns stationed on payday.

[Redlg155]

The credit union on post would have MPs with shotguns stationed on payday.

Kinda reminds me of the stories my day used to tell me when he was in the Army back in the old days. (I consider the early 60's old since I wasn't born until 69! :D ) Anyway, they used to line up at payday muster to recieve their pay in cash. They always had a soldier tasked to stand armed guard during payday.

I guess what makes me laugh the most is that wives often accompanied the soldiers. The soldier would sign for and recieve his pay and then immediately hand it off to the wife! :D


As for Armed Security...I feel for you guys. Still..I would think that if they were that concerned with gunplay and having their weapons snatched more of them would have a high retention level holster. Most if not all that I have seen still carry in what looks like Uncle Mikes snap type holsters. Just generic cheapos.

Go figure...

Good Shooting
Red

[Matt G]

I was in Austin (attending U.T.) back in Fall of 1990 when an armored car courier was carrying the moneybags out to the armored car from a local supermarket. While passing through the breezeway, a robber walked up behind him, shot him in the head, picked up the moneybags, stepped into a waiting car, and was gone before the smoke cleared. IIRC, the take was only about $50-80k. People will murder you for a LOT less than that kind of cash. The most dangerous time for those guys is when they're out of their cars, making a routine pickup.

As long as they're safe about it, I've zero problem with them taking a firm grip on their pistols, everyime they make a pickup. After all, they carry the pistols for a reason. Always be clearly vigilante and convey that an attack will be met with immediate use of deadly force, and EVERYONE is thus a lot safer. That's what the concept of "An armed society is a polite society" is all about, is it not?

Funny story: I was on duty as a patrol officer one Saturday, and had shoved the department patrol cell phone into my pocket. When I squated next to my car to look under the passenger seat for the remote control for the dash radar (which the previous driver had let rattle around-- grrrr!), the suppository-shaped cell phone "squibbed" out of my pocket, unbeknown to me. I suddenly got a call of a theft-in-progress, and when I hopped in my car and backed out of my parking spot, I drove over the cell phone, causing it to fail that particular stress test. Finding it smashed in the P.D. parking lot an hour later, I proceded to the cell-phone store to procur another for our department. I walked in, asked a guy at a front counter who to talk to about that, and he pointed me to the very back of the store to speak to the shift manager. The shift manager saw me, in a very standard midnight blue uniform and basketweave gunbelt, and nodded. He stopped talking to the customer he was with, saying "Yeah, just a minute," and stepped to a back office. He came back out with a big (2 quart? One Gallon?) ziplock bag full of bundled cash with a totaled reciept in it and a 6-digit hyphenated number on the front of it, and, saying ,"Here you go," handed it over to me and began to continue his conversation with his customer.

I smiled, handed him a paper bag with the earthly remains of the department cell phone, and said, "Thanks! And here you go." He looked... confused.
"Wait...! Aren't you the...? You're not the... Your uniform is different!"

I had apparently preceded the armored car company pickup by a few minutes. :)

[VaughnT]

This one's right up my alley! Here's the lowdown from someone that does this stuff every day.

First, in SC, having your weapon out of the holster is considered "brandishing" and is a felony offense if someone wants to press the charge....boy did I get in some heat over this one!

Second, there are more idiots in this world than you can shake a stick at. I'm not talking about robbers so much as morons that think it's funny to jump out at you trying to spook you. I've seen it a million times (and don't get me started on those asses constantly quipping, "givin' out any free samples" or the like. It wasn't funny after the millionth time!!:cuss: )

Third, everyone thinks we have a million dollars in our bag. Ain't true at any time.

Fourth, and this is the kicker, if you kill a cop all you get is a shiny badge and, maybe, some extra clout in your gang. If you kill a transporter, you get that imaginary million dollar payoff! There is literally a price on your head.

The bottom line, as I try to teach it to our guys, is that you have to look like one mean wolf if you want to keep the other wolves at bay. If you look a ******, you can't complain when you get **********. It's the law of the jungle.

The most important thing I try to get across to these guys is that you don't have to be good, you just have to look like you are. The skills will come with practice, but you need to look the part right off if you want to get along in this world.

It's kinda like Mike Tyson. He looks light a hardcore warrior...then he opens his mouth and sounds like an ignorant sissy-boy. He talks like a girl, fer crisakes! However, as long as he has that physique, aint nobody gonna bother him.

In the armed arena, that gun is the equivalent of Tyson's physique, and looking like you can handle yourself, or are prepared to try, gives you the edge.

Any other questions?

[geegee]

I worked as a security guard for Brinks, while in college in Ottawa, Ontario during the mid '70's. It was a great job for a student-very flexible hours (they almost always needed someone at some hour of the day or night), pay was ok, and I got to meet a lot of bank tellers. ;) The job was really pretty tedious, which unfortunately can result in people getting lax at the worst times.

Working for Brinks was considered extremely safe in Ottawa (since they had never been held up), until one of our crews had a guard murdered. Mo Prudhomme was a very friendly, young father who was killed by a shotgun blast, for no reason at all. Like most guards, he would have gladly handed over the dough, if given the chance.

There was also an incident in 1976 when there a big robbery took place in Montreal. The Brinks truck driver had a very regular habit of reading his morning paper, while parked in an alley at the rear of a bank. One morning a delivery van pulled up directly in front of the truck (while the crew was downstairs getting the morning delivery of deposits), and when the driver heard a rap on the window, he was instructed to look ahead at the van. When he did, he saw the doors swing open and a .50 cal. machine gun mounted in the van , pointed at him. Being a military veteran, he realized what that .50 could do to an armored truck, and so complied with the request to get out and wait for the rest of the crew. When they returned, the robbery took place. AFAIK, the money (around $15mm) has never been returned.

It's a job that can positively lull you to sleep at times, but you definitely have to stay alert. geegee

[PrudentGT]

On the topic of putting your hand on your weapon for a little added comfort, my father's old service revolver has this funny thumb-shaped wear mark on the upper front side of the left grip. I know he only drew once or twice in his career, but that wear mark tells the story of a lot of nervous moments in his lifetime.

And, while we're on the topic of armed guards (just to get everyone in a tizzy), remind me again why there are provisions for them to carry weapons when you can't use deadly force to protect property?...
;)

[Mike Irwin]

I've never seen a courier for an Armored Service pick up/drop off cash at a financial institution with a side arm drawn.

I worked for Navy Federal Credit Union for 3.5 years and never did I see this.

I have, however, seen teams armed with shotguns.

And, once, many years ago, I saw the "money train" come through the DC metro station as I was waiting for the last train with some friends.

I wasn't doing too well (drunk as a skunk) so I just put my head down and started walking toward the train.

One of my friends grabbed me and said something relatively unintelligible and drunken, at which point I looked up and saw TWO guys with shotguns giving my group the skelly eyeball.

I got a lot more sober right about then. :)

[SoCalGeek]

They know how to do it over in ireland. I happened to be walking through the downtown area of a tourist city during an armored car pickup. They have people armed with Steyr AUGs up and down the street, dressed in BDUs, looking around, and generally being intimidating. It was very different from what i normally see in America, where one guy gets out of the car carrying a wonder 9 in his holster while the other guy sits in the car and looks bored.

[sm]

Used to assist with some armored car and security guard quals.
Some were newbies, some had experience with other companies, other states, some had some years under their belts.

Basically its what company policy dictates, in the respective state they are in. .38spl revolvers are chosen because of MOA for Armored Guards. Familiarily of weapon, sharing of ammo if things were to get bad. Every 6 months one company required revos to be inspected and cleaned by an authorized gunsmith.(nelphs) Before each shift revo was to be inspected before carry and holstered. And yes, Hand on weapon when entering/leaving/ attending ATM. Even if you were knew you were a decoy.
Some situations dictated another accompany guards with a SG. There is time even for a second man to be inside with 2nd SG.
All of the guards we dealt with HAD to also qual with PG SG, I hate PG SGs but I'd draw short straw and teach it. arrgghh

Security guards usually had more flexible choice on firearm,had to qualify, and we usually "suggested" even if qual'd with a semi, to qual with a revo...liability, they use partners revo, or if for some reason their semi is in repair they could work with a company revo.

Some interesting rules and regs.

[Orthonym]

Do not most of our govt. people, and lots of the members here, counsel us to use deadly force only in defence of our lives? Nonetheless, the laws in some states authorize only people who have valuable property to protect to go armed. Not that I object to anyone shooting an armed robber, I just see some hypocrisy here.

[Griff]

Orthonym, I'm not a security guard by profession or choice, so this will have to be the opinion of an interested reader. Bear with me.

While I can understand your question, it bothers me that you don't draw a line between choice and duty. Put yourself in their shoes: go walk around dressed up as a target for your small paycheck, carrying lots of what everybody wants, then split your attention between ethical issues and survival. It becomes a different story.

(Please don't see this as an attack on your person, I just think that you've missed something here)

Regards

[Orthonym]

Why should I be put into a self-defense position to protect someone else's property? And for small pay? But now we're getting into politics.:)

[c_yeager]

They arent armed to protect the bag of money. They are armed to keep from getting killed by someone who wants the bag of money. if someone comes up to me and puts a gun to my head and wants my wallet im more than willing to give it to him. BUT, if i get even a moments chance im not going to wait to see if he will be charitable enough not to kill me afterwads.

[Orthonym]

If someone points a piece at me and doesn't kill me then and there I figure all bets are off and I get to: Abjectly surrender; Pretend to abjectly surrender, then wait until I get the drop on HIM (even if I have to wait 20 years or so); Charge like a kamikaze at the very moment; OR ANY OR ALL OF THE ABOVE, or anything in between!

[Griff]

Those are all very interesting plans of action, but the context of the thread is the job. I think that the members here who have actual experience in it have illustrated the realities quite well, from a perspective that we civilians can't understand.
What you do with your time and money is your choice, they don't have that option.

[Autolite]

It's a very good question. Either you can or can't use deadly force to protect property. The value or amount of property should not be a factor. Nor should who the property belongs too. Also, the guards 'chose' to be guards so they do/did have the option of not being placed in a dangerous situation. I would like to hear a legal opinion on this subject ...

[VaughnT]

Gentlemen, we don't carry sidearms because we are protecting currency or other liabilities. We carry because anyone attempting to take said transferables has already demonstrated a disregard for the law and their next action cannot be predicted. If they are willing to steal, there is no reason to assume that they are not willing to do murder.

And more importantly, that pistol serves very much as a talisman to make others think twice about robbery. Sure, that guy might be sixty years old and look feeble as all get out, but he just might be a hard-core shooter with war experience under his belt and reflexes like a cat. Do you really want to chance it against someone whose potential you don't know and who's armed?

As a side note: we just had one of our guys robbed and he lived. Unfortunately, the living wasn't because of anything he did right (wouldn't have been robbed if he had been on his toes), only that the bad guys didn't want to kill him. If any of a hundred variables had gone the other way (stoned, nervous, angry...), he would be dead. You cannot rely on the goodwill of a thief.

[PrudentGT]

Thought I'd resurrect this thread because I had an odd experience today, and wanted everyone to chime in before I take any action.

I was sitting outside Armadillo Willy's (restaurant) having lunch with a coworker, and casually glance over my shoulder and the first thing I see is a Glock in someone's hand, sort of in the low-ready position. The second thing I see is that the hand is attached to a youngish armed courier guy making a pickup from the restaurant. He holsters it as he goes in the restaurant, and then as he comes out he pulls it out *again* and tucks it between himself and the bag he's just picked up. Now my first instinct is to give the company (ACS?) a call about this -- I've seen these guys qualify in the past with revolvers and it's not pretty, so this yahoo holstering/unholstering for no apparent reason and having the muzzle point all over God's green earth seems like an accident waiting to happen. I subscribe to the idea that it stays holstered unless you're going to use it, but perhaps this courier company encourages lots of scary brandishing for some reason?

So my question is, should I give the company a call and let them know that this is going on or am I being a ninny who should just mind his own business?

[BluesBear]

If the courier is breaking any of the 4 rules then someone higher in the food chain needs to be made aware of it.

A good company wouldn't want any bad PR.

[Orthonym]

All of you good-fer-nuthin fellow two-legged predators please see my posts above in this thread.

[VaughnT]

By all means, report the actions you witnessed if you feel that it was overboard. It is only by being made aware of instances like this that a company can work to better their workforce.