Powder difference?


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PecosRiverM
March 9, 2008, 02:10 PM
Is there any major difference between H4831 and IMR 4831?

I've got a .243, 25-06, and .270 and IMR4831 can be used in all of these. I can't find any data on H4831 for the 25-06 tho.

Just trying to stay with one powder if it'll do the job.

Thanks

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ranger335v
March 9, 2008, 02:27 PM
No "major" difference but a difference that is significant enough that we can't simply swap one for the other.

rcmodel
March 9, 2008, 02:38 PM
You must not have looked in the right place.
Like Hodgdon's, for instance!

They list 25-06 / H4831 data for 7 different bullet weights.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

rcmodel

PecosRiverM
March 9, 2008, 02:47 PM
Oops I have it backwards. No IMR 4831 data for 25-06 with a Nosler 115gr bullet. Duh I feel silly now:banghead:

ArchAngelCD
March 10, 2008, 01:10 AM
Oops I have it backwards. No IMR 4831 data for 25-06 with a Nosler 115gr bullet. Duh I feel silly now
Data from the Hodgdon site for the 25-06 and a Nosler 115gr bullet using IMR4831:
115 GR. NOS BT IMR 4831 .257" 3.175" 50.7gr 3030 fps 60,000 PSI

Data from the Hodgdon site for the 25-06 and a Barns X 115gr bullet using IMR4831:
115 GR. BAR X IMR 4831 .257" 3.175" 46.2gr 2830 fps 60,000 PSI

They aren't showing data for H4831 and a 115gr NOS bullet but they are supplying data for H4831 and a 117gr Hornady SP BT bullet. The 2gr different won't matter if you decide to use a 115gr Nosler BT bullet.
117 GR. HDY SPBT H4831 .257" 3.165"
48.0gr 2748 fps 43,000 CUP
52.0gr 2937 fps 50,900 CUP

PecosRiverM
March 10, 2008, 02:04 AM
Thanks ArchAngel just found it..
I thought the (IMR) was like a Ackley.

Okay another silly question.

Why are the presures so different on the two powders? (60k vs 50.9k)
Would this be because of one burning faster than the other?

ArchAngelCD
March 10, 2008, 02:12 AM
I can't answer that question but I did notice Hodgdon powders will produce less pressure than IMR powders with the same number while still producing similar velocities. I've been using more H4895 instead of IMR 4895 because of that very reason in my 30-06 rounds.

rcmodel
March 10, 2008, 02:34 PM
H4831 is slower then IMR4831 by a few clicks.

Looking at the Hornady manual Powder Burn Rate table, IMR4831 is #69, followed by AA3100, RL-19, and RL-22.

H4831 is #73, followed by IMR7828.

I have always thought it was unfortunate Hodgdon used the H4831 name after I almost blew up a rifle with it when I switched from H4831 to IMR4831.

In my younger days about 45 years ago, I was foolish enough to be pushing a max load with one 4831, and switched to what I thought was the same 4831 from a different company without backing off and starting over.

It blew a primer in an 03 Springfield and welded the case to the bolt-face!

At one time, H4831 was the same as IMR4831.
In fact, it was IMR4831!

Hodgdon got started in business selling surplus powder from WWII.
After the surplus IMR4831 ran out, they came up with a new commercial replacement and changed the burn rate, but not the name!
They shoulda called it H4832, or something more descriptive!

rcmodel

moooose102
March 10, 2008, 04:51 PM
you can go to the imr website and request a copy of their free reloading manual. i did, i use mostly imr powders, but a lot of my load data come from other sources as well.

ArchAngelCD
March 10, 2008, 07:20 PM
you can go to the imr website and request a copy of their free reloading manual. i did, i use mostly imr powders, but a lot of my load data come from other sources as well.
You can go to the Hodgdon, Winchester or IMR site and order their free yearly guide. You will get the same guide no matter which site you order from. They aren't publishing a different guide for each company any longer. (2008 is the first year)

David Wile
March 11, 2008, 05:31 PM
Hey RC,

I think you may have things backwards on which came first: H4831 or IMR4831. If I read you correctly, you are saying IMR 4831 came before the Hodgdon 4831. Your are right that Hodgdon started business with a surplus powder which they labeled simply 4831. I think Hodgdon sold 4831 in the early 1950s and even before that. I know I started using Hodgdon's 4831 in 1959 or 1960, and I am pretty sure that Dupont did not come out with their IMR 4831 until maybe 1970 or later.

IMR 4831 was not the same as Hodgdon's surplus 4831; they were similar in burn rates, but not the same. Around the same time that IMR 4831 was introduced, Hodgdon ran out of the surplus 4831 and introduced their "new" 4831 which was then called H4831. Like IMR4831, The new H4831 was not the same as the surplus 4831, and the various load book data began to change.

In any case, all three of the 4831 types are slow burners and fairly close in their burn rates. If you are shooting medium loads, you could probably interchange any of the three 4831 powders safely. I remember a time when we would take a 30-06 case newly sized and primed, dip it in a coffee can full of the original 4831 and fill it to the top. We would then dump the powder from the case into a scale pan and weigh it. We found our "dipped" charges to be pretty consistant in weight, and they were several grains below maximum loads cited in different books of the day.

In fact, to get up to a maximum load with 4831, we would usually have to fill the case to the top and then compress the powder a good bit before pouring the rest of the maximum charge in the case. 4831 was a great powder back then because you could buy it for less than 75 cents a pound when IMR powders were perhaps $2.50 a pound. You just had to love that 4831.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

rcmodel
March 11, 2008, 06:33 PM
What I meant was that Hodgdons was selling WWII surplus Dupont IMR-4831 (Improved Military Rifle #4831) as H-4831 until they ran out.

You are correct that commercial Dupont IMR-4831 didn't come out until later, but as I recall, what Hodgdon was selling early on was surplus Dupont IMR-4831 until they ran out of it.

rcmodel

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