[oneiron]

Today I used cornmeal for a filler loading my 58 Remington. I was so surprised at how clean the bore of the gun was when I went to clean It was just not fowled the way it normally is. New subject:
I used the rest of my bp, and I was testing out the load with Pyrodex P. I threw a charge of 35gr in my powder measure, and then tested it using lee's dippers, and it was less than 23grs. I had to move the field measure to 45grs to throw the proper charge of 28grs. I read a post on the board where the poster said he filled up the cylinder 777 and put a ball on top. I thought that was and outrageous statement until I did this test. I hope I am coming to the right conclusions.

[timothy75]

Pizza parlors use cornmeal to clean their ovens, and I've also hear it helps keep the barrel clean with bp. I use a 2.2cc dipper for 35grs bp btw. You of course know to measure by volume not weight right?

[Mike OTDP]

Try Cream of Wheat. Cornmeal compresses too much, in my experience. Leave about 1/2 inch clear for the bullet (more if you use a heavy powder charge).

[sundance44s]

Does it smell like hushpuppys when ya shoot ?

[oneiron]

I fill the cylinder up with it over the powder charge. I was shooting 40grs bp measured with my field measure that came with the Cabela's starter kit. all I have now is Pyrodex P. I shot up my bp. I was under the impression that you loaded Pyrodex P on a one for one basis with bp in the field measure. That is because of the greater volume of Pyrodex P you would have and automatic charge of 28grs of Pyrodex P with the gage set at 35grs. it just did not work that way. Bp can not be had here in East Central Georgia. I can't find any place that carries it, but Bass Pro Shop in Savannah. A two hundred mile trip there and back. Corn meal may compress, but it sure cleans the gun barrel.

[Im283]

I been loading my 58 in the following manner.

1.3 CC dipper filled with Pyrodex and a 1.6 CC dipper with instant grits. It leaves enough room for a ball and a little space left over to grease over the ball. A .40S&W casing works pretty well for both too.

[ArmedBear]

I left CoW in a powder flask for a long time. When I looked in it again, I'd raised a colony of some sort of insect.

I don't recommend leaving it in a flask indefinitely.:)

[Mausermike]

Anyone ever accidentally put the corn meal on the bottom of the charge?

[oneiron]

You can get meal worm lava in it if it is exposed. Im283 looking at your load I had to look at it twice. It seemed low for a 44. If it were regular bp I would be afraid the ball would not come out of the barrel. I like to load as close as I can to the maximum charge. Where I live every gun is loaded and would be used for hd. Any one that comes back where I live, I know they are uninvited. Any one know the maximum range on a 58 Remington?

[.cheese.]

You can get meal worm lava in it if it is exposed.

I'm guessing they aren't very happy when you pull the trigger?

[Im283]

looking at your load I had to look at it twice. It seemed low for a 44. If it were regular bp I would be afraid the ball would not come out of the barrel. I like to load as close as I can to the maximum charge. Where I live every gun is loaded and would be used for hd.

The 20 grains of pyro ejects the ball pretty much where I am aiming. I see no need to increase the load by 30% just to terrorize paper targets and pop cans.

I don't mess with c and p for home defense. Got proper cartridge stuff to take care of that just fine.

[sundance44s]

Range on the 1858 Remington ...I regulary ding the 100 yard Buffalo at the club I shoot at with mine .
I even tried the shot with my 51 Navy 36 cal ...the ding just wasn`t as loud .

[oneiron]

I just received my screw set for Brownell's Now it is the screw under the trigger guard that I am having trouble with. It is soaking in penetration oil. I will try to heat it up with a solder iron tomorrow, and tap it with a hammer and see what happens.
Sundance44, I think the drop at 100 yds is about 11-12". Does that sound right?

[Pancho]

Oneiron, that is a good idea about using a solder iron to directly heat a screw, thanks. Now if I can only remember it.

[Timthinker]

When I owned my ROA, I loaded cream of wheat as a filler and never experienced any problems. I can not say if corn meal or the cream kept the barrel cleaner after firing though. Of course, I only loaded the Ruger at the range, so maggots were never a problem or even a concern.


Timthinker

[Niner]

I used the rest of my bp, and I was testing out the load with Pyrodex P. I threw a charge of 35gr in my powder measure, and then tested it using lee's dippers, and it was less than 23grs. I had to move the field measure to 45grs to throw the proper charge of 28grs.

That seems to me you are measuring by weight rather than volume. 28 Grains by a black powder volume measure should be about max load for a 44 Remington with either bp or pyrodex. 45grs is way too much powder by volume.

How did you have any room to add any corn meal anyway?

[sundance44s]

OneIron ..thats probally about right on the drop at 100 yards , I`ve never considered it as a pistol range but was just playing around the first time I hit the Buffalo target , this target is 16inches tall and 18 inches wide and when I hit it I`m aiming at the top of the hump on its back ...thought it odd I could still have the thing in my sights with me shooting only 30 grs of powder in the 44 and 24 grs in the 36 .

[oneiron]

OK, when you consult the Lee dipper guide for Pyrodex P 26.7 gr load use the 2.2cc dipper. When I did that I then measured it in my field measure that I use for bp. It almost filled the black powder measure up to 45 on the scale. Then I used my RCBS powder scale to measure the grains and it read about 25 gr. They sell Prodex by weight, and one pound has 7000 grains. I was just trying to find out what to set my powder measure on to throw a 26.7gr charge of Pyrodex. You can't use a bp powder measure to throw a correct charge of Pyrodex with out calibrating it.
Sundance44 i got that drop idea from ballistics of a Federal round I use in my 44 Special which drops 16" with a 25yd zero. I figure that 138 gr ball will not drop as much as a 246 gr bullet.

[RON in PA]

Pyrodex is supposed to be measured by volume as is black powder. Forget actual weights. Pyrodex has a different density than black powder and if you weighed the same volume of black and Pyro you'd find the Pyrodex weighed less. You get more shots out of a pound of Pyrodex than a pound of black powder because of this.

[oneiron]

Ron in PA, you are absolutely correct. The rule is to use 15% less in grains than bp. Calbel's list 28gr as the charge for my remme 44. I am trying to calibrate my field measure to through a 28gr charge. I used Lee dipper to dip a 26.7gr charge using a 2.2cc dipper, and I poured that charge into my field gage. It read just shy of 45grs. I then used Lee dipper 2.5 to dip a 30.4gr charge of Pyrodex. I poured that charge into my field gage and it read 47grs. I then weighted the charge in my scale, and reduced it by removing powder until it read 28grs. I did the same thing for the charge of the 2.2cc dipper, and added powder to bring it up to 28grs. Ipoured it into my field gage and set the gage. I then did the same thing to the 2.5cc charge,but i reduced it by removing powder to bring it to 28grs in the scale. I then poured it into the gage and adjusted the calibration. On my field gage which I use to measure bp it reads just below 45grs. so Pyrodex P is .20 denser than bp. To be on the safe side I used two Lee dippers a 1cc and a 1.3 cc dipper to throw a 27.9gr charge by volume of Pyrodex P and use that charge to set my field measure which is just below 45gr on the bp scale.

[Niner]

Oneiron, those dippers are measureing grains of powder by weight which is the way you do when you reload smokeless powder. The BP measure is by volume, not weight. BP and Pyrodex are equal by volume using the BP grains scale made for the purpose. You can also buy flask spouts that measure whatever volume amount you want to measure as well. Put away the dippers.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

I load my '58 with 30 grains of Triple Seven (3fff) setting behind a .451 swaged round lead ball with a Remington #10 cap on the nipple with a little Crisco over the mouth's of the chambers. No wads, no cornbread, no breakfast cereal, no nothing..No problems....

[oneiron]

Niner, I just received this from Lee Precision:
Sir,

Thank you for choosing Lee Precision. You can use our dippers to measure black powder or Pyrodex, regardless of what you might have heard. If you have a scale to double-check the actual charge weights all the better. Once you have established an average weight for each dipper, you could attach a label indicating the weight (the next can of powder will weigh slightly differently due to manufacturing tolerances at the powder manufacturer). Just remember that measuring by weight and volume are two different things; If you need an exact weight of powder, the only way to do that is the weigh every singe charge. If a very close approximation will work (and it does for the vast majority of handloaded ammunition) you can meter your powder charges by volume.

It is Cabela's gage that is wrong not the dipper or the RCBS scale. They calibrate there gages low to prevent someone that does not know what they are doing from blowing up the pistol.

[scrat]

REading this thread had me thinking. here where i live Bp is plenty available. so is triple 7 and pyrodex. Its not a problem to get BP. With that i still use wads. More so for lubricating and preventing chain fires. I can see where a low load of bp plus a filler to fill the chamber then the ball. This will help in making your bp last longer on reduced loads. I just dont see the need for the clean part. I guess using wads my self in some what of a way helps clean the chambers too. However when im done shooting i intend to take apart my guns completely and clean them up regardless of what i was shooting. here is my thought.

When im not shooting. I like to keep my guns in show room condition. Kinda like if you were to show someone they would not believe you actually shoot them. When im shooting it doesnt matter how dirty they get. I keep a patch on hand and some quick cleaners incase i need them. Otherwise im going to shoot until i cant anymore.

[Niner]

Just remember that measuring by weight and volume are two different things; If you need an exact weight of powder, the only way to do that is the weigh every singe charge.

Pyrodex is to be loaded to equal volume of grains of black powder not equal weight. So how is it your dipper is going to convert between the two powders since the density equals different weight for volume between the two?

While we are quoting.. I'll stick with Sam Fadala.." Under no circumstances should a powder measure designed for smokeless powder be used for tossing charges of black powder". Black Powder Loading Manuel page 14.

[oneiron]

It is obvious that you have your position. You have your references and I have mine. Thank you for your input.

[moojpg2]

i think someone is seriously screwing up the weight vs. volume thing here. :banghead:

If you go from black powder to pyrodex you need to use an equal or lesser charge by VOLUME (the amount of space something takes up, ie the field powder measure),

pyrodex is much less dense than black powder.

which means that a large charge of pyrodex (too much for the gun) will probably weigh the same as a normal charge of bp

If you are shooting equal charges by weight of black powder and pyrodex, you are really overloading that pistol.

30-35gr by VOlUME of either pyro or black is about the safe maximum load for most 1858 replicas imho

put away the dippers before you ruin your gun or hurt yourself.

[arcticap]

Theoretically 100 grains by volume of black powder is suppose to weigh 100 grains. So once you know the weight or dipper volume of an "X" number of grains of BP, that volume should equal the equivalent volume of Pyrodex.
Pyrodex P is slightly more potent than ffg by about 10% max which isn't usually a factor for such smallish loads, but even that can still be compensated for.
So that's probably why Lee feels that using the same dippers for both BP and Pyrodex is safe, because BP's grain weight also equals it's volume in grains.
There's very little difference in reality, even when using a good volumetric powder measure and a scale. :)

[oneiron]

I is not unsafe to use the dippers. A 2.2cc dipper throws a 35gr charge of bp. That same dipper throws 26.7gr charge of Pyrodex P.
Both charges are with in the safe range for a Remington. which is 35 for bp and 28 for Pyrodex P.
The problem comes when you transfer that charge to the field gage and it will fill it up to 50grs as marked on the field gage. Which has to be incorrect. The actual charge is reduce by 10% by the powder selection scale for the Lee dippers.When you weigh the bp charge on the scale it will weigh 33grs snd the Pyrodex will weigh 24grs.. Either charge will fill up the gage that came with the Cabela's starter pack. The reason they do that is to protect them from a law suit if the gun blows up. But on the other hand a 10gr charge by the field is a 5.35gr charge when you weight it. That may be a safe charge, I don't know ; I cut the charge down to 10grs of bp and the ball never left the cylinder. I am just trying to find the limits of my gun.

[whosyrdaddy]

Oneiron, could you convert the field measure's idea of 50 grain to ml/cc for us? I just filled 2 different styles of volumetric measures to their respective 100 grain marks and then poured them into a couple of those dosing beakers that you get at the pharmacy. one threw ~ 6.75 ml the other just slightly less.

[Im283]

I have been shooting both Pyro and BP lately. I use the Lee Dippers most of the time.

According to the conversion chart that was included in the set of dippers, to shoot 20 grains of fff black powder I would use a 1.3 CC dipper. That dipper full of BP equals 20.7 grains.

The same dipper used for Pyro equals 15.8 grains.

[oneiron]

In a water test it is 2.5cc. The same as 39.8 grs bp Lee dipper. The I.3 dipper reads 20.7 on the scale. Which surprised me because on the powder selection slide it said the loads are the max and that they are reduced 10%. That was not the case for the bp in a 1.3 dipper but it was for the Prodex P which weighted 14.1grs The bp charge read 27grs in my field gage.

[oneiron]

Deleted

[whosyrdaddy]

Oneiron, if I am understanding correctly, your field measure of 50 grains converts volumetrically to 2.5 cc/ml. If this is the case, then your 50 grains is considerable shy of the two 50 grain charges I measured at +/- 3.375 cc/ml. If it were me, I would literally throw it back across the counter at the jackass that sold it to me.

[oneiron]

It came in a kit. There starter kit they call it. Maybe if I were using Swiss or the special powder they used to proof the pistol, It may read correct. I think the 44 Remington is pretty much a 44 Special in modern terms. I think a good load would be 25.5gr bp and a 240gr conical bullet if you can find one. A 200 gr Conical with a 35gr charge of bp would be strong loan if the conical had a little alloy adder to make the bullet harder for penetration.

[mainmech48]

Personally, I just bought a set of spouts for my flask, tried a few cylinders-full from a selection of them and use the one that threw the charge that gave the best goups. I have only reasonable guess at the volume and no idea of what it actually weighs. It shoots the way want it to, and that's enough for me.

Curiously enough, the conical bullet load that shoots closest to POA in my 5 1/2" 1860 Army replica is the 180 gr. Buffalo Bullet Co. swaged slug over a 30 gr. Pryodex pellet. Almost dead-on for both windage and elevation at 25 yds and as accurate as my best round ball loads in this revolver. The 'authentic' reproductions duplicating the conicals supposedly loaded in the factory-made combustible cartridges of the period sold by Dixie, both for Remingtons and Colt .44s, don't come anywhere close, no matter what charges and lubes I've tried.

[oneiron]

30gr Pyrodex pushing a 180gr conical is moving about 900fpm. If you had a chronograph to check that round with, I bet it is moving over 900fpm. These guns will do everything a modern gun will. Have you checked how many 1" board it will go through. The Army acceptance test on the Colt Army was to go through 12 1" boards with a gap between each board.