Big newby with some questions about Mosin Nagant


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ihaveworms
March 10, 2008, 05:31 PM
Hello all, I have been reading around on the forums some more about the mosin nagant. I would like to get one over the summer. I saw some people talk about http://www.classicarms.us/ . I was looking at their M44s and they seem to be in good condition. Would that be a pretty good place to get one?

I am not a not a very big guy so I kinda liked the shorter M44 compared to the M91/30. Is the M44 a good choice? Is the accuracy pretty good?

I am also 18 and live in Tennessee. With classic arms located in North Carolina, I would need it shipped over here. I read a bit about this 'FFL' license and well, I am not old enough to sign up for one. I also read about a process of having a rifle transfered to a dealer with a FFL and then getting it from them. Is this common? Would they do that?

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35Rem
March 10, 2008, 05:47 PM
Transfers are common. Probably cost around $20-30, look at gunbroker.com for the FFL finder.
http://www.jgsales.com/index.php/c/c-r-guns/cPath/290?osCsid=df14297719a9f3dd37b18a22f82c9d14
J&G Sales has the M44 for $70, or the full size 91/30 for $60. You will have to have it shipped. I doubt proximity to the dealer will change cost, too much.
Shipping will be around $20 (round numbers)

RenardSubtil
March 10, 2008, 05:48 PM
you may want to call around the local gun shops for these, they should go for under $100 ...if you pay for that rifle out of state, you will end up having to have it sent to a dealer in your area because you can't have that shipped to your door (without a special FFL03 license).

The dealer will accept it and he'll charge you a Federal Firearm License (FFL) fee which can go from $50 to $70 (I live in CA, so that's my fee).

So basically...

-If you buy from out of state, you need to first call a local gun shop who handles FFL transfers and ask them if they'll accept your firearm. ask for their FAX number.

-Then you would call the out of state dealer and make your purchase over the phone and give them the FAX number for the local dealer.

-Sit back and wait :)

Personally, on my trek for a nice milsurplus rifle, I ended up with a Mosin look alike trainer chambered in .22 LR (Polish WZ48) and also a Swiss K31 :D

Good luck buddy, have fun and be safe!

-M

Cosmoline
March 10, 2008, 05:53 PM
If you want an M44, GET THIS RIFLE or a similar Pole.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=94043818

It will last you the rest of your life, and these are far more accurate than the average M44. The little extra $$ is well worth it. Just don't cut on it.

ihaveworms
March 10, 2008, 06:00 PM
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=7006&dir=700|701

I found a rifle within just a few minutes from me. Do you all know why they would charge more for walk in customers ($30)? Seems strange because I would think walk in customers would be less of a hassle and you would receive the money faster.

At $100, is it still worth it? I guess I will have to go around to some more gunshops around here but I am not sure if they sell surplus rifles. Also, what are the chances of me getting one and it turning out to have poor accuracy and is just not a very good gun? I have seen some up close pics of these and even though I am not super knowledgeable about the mechanics of the firearm, it seems their construction is a little rough.

Ah and cosmoline, I was hoping to find one of these around $100~. This would be my first gun and don't have a whole lot of money will college expenses and all.

Cosmoline
March 10, 2008, 06:26 PM
If you're buying from a local dealer's stock there should be NO charge for the NICS process. The charge comes when you use a local license holder to transfer a firearm from another dealer.

ihaveworms
March 10, 2008, 06:43 PM
I don't know what NICS is. Also, I was just commenting on how he charges more for walk-ins, not necessary charging a FFL fee.

Cosmoline
March 10, 2008, 06:45 PM
That's not because you're a walk-in, it's because you're not a dealer. Mosins are very easy to find, so you can certainly just cruise local gun shops and find one.

iamkris
March 10, 2008, 07:11 PM
I was just commenting on how he charges more for walk-ins, not necessary charging a FFL fee

The "$30 more" is called his margin for owning the inventory and the work required to maintain his FFL. ClassicArms is pricing based on a transfer or direct-to-FFL price. It's how a business operates.

ihaveworms
March 10, 2008, 08:04 PM
Ok I have another question. If I decided to change out the bolt handle and put on a scope, how far would I be able to hit targets about the size of a milk jug?

Cosmoline
March 10, 2008, 08:06 PM
The same distance you could have before you put a scope on it.

ihaveworms
March 10, 2008, 08:20 PM
Right right. But how far do you expect an M44 to shoot accurately at a target the size of a milk jug in yards?

transformerguru
March 10, 2008, 08:32 PM
If you have a Big 5 around look at them also they seem to have the M44 on sale every other week to every two weeks for $89+ transfer fee.

alemonkey
March 10, 2008, 08:42 PM
Honestly, the accuracy on Mosins varies a lot, from sub 1" groups at 100 yards to mine, which is more like 6" :). Or even worse. It really depends on how good the bore is. But, the great thing is that they're so cheap that even if you get a dog it's not a big loss.

Cosmoline
March 10, 2008, 09:00 PM
But how far do you expect an M44 to shoot accurately at a target the size of a milk jug in yards?

A rebuilt USSR M44 from the bargain bin will likely shoot 3 MOA to 5 MOA at best. The one I linked to will likely shoot much better than that. Neither will work well with a traditional scope, so you need to learn how to use tangent irons.

jpwilly
March 11, 2008, 02:12 AM
They aren't tack drivers. Everything has to come together. I have 1 out of five that shoots good by todays standards that's 1-2" at 100yards with handloads with mil Surp ammo it shoots 2-3" groups. It's a PU sniper reproduction. The rest shoot 3-5" groups with some that are even bigger for whatever reason again that's surplus ammo from a sandbag.

RP88
March 11, 2008, 02:27 AM
unless you live in a place that breaks balls over guns...transfer fees usually wont run you more than about 20-30 bucks. Dont forget shipping, either.

The best thing to do is pretty much add an extra fifty bucks onto the price of a gun found online (unless it says that transfer fee is included in the listed price). Then, you figure shipping and the NICS check fee (usually $5 for that)

Vityaz
March 11, 2008, 05:35 AM
$100 is a pretty good price for an M44.
About what I've seen them going for everywhere but Gander Mountain.
Freakin $150 for an M44...

silverlance
March 11, 2008, 06:05 AM
Where do you live?
There are a lot of finish-worn Finnish M39s. These guns have beat up stocks, with multiple repairs; they usually have almost no finish left.

But their bolts and receivers match, and they are capable of quite good accuarcy. let me put it this way - with CZ silvertip I have hit a one liter (the small bottles) soda bottle at 75 yards, dead on.

they can be had for as little as $120.

xsquidgator
March 11, 2008, 07:13 AM
Classic Arms is a good place to buy from. Decent and better quality, but what really made the difference for me was the great customer service attitude. I bought a 91/30 from him that had a minor problem that took me a while to figure out. I was finally able to fix it by dremeling away part of the stock on the inside that was interfering with the action, but when I spoke to the Classic Arms guy over the phone about my problem (before I'd figured out exactly what the problem was) he told me no sweat, he'd make it right. I like that.
If I buy any more C&R rifles he's the first place I'll look.

ihaveworms
March 11, 2008, 11:26 AM
Like I said, I am a newby so I do not know what MOA stands for. As for where I live someone asked, I live in Tennessee.

iamkris
March 11, 2008, 03:02 PM
Since you are a newbie, might I suggest 3 things?

1) Wait on buying a 91/30 or M44. The full power cartridge / metal buttplate / poorly designed stock / crappy triggers / crappy sights / so-so accuracy is not really the best to learn on. It will frustrate you, induce a flinch and otherwise make marksmanship an afterthought.

2) Buy a 22 rifle. Learn to shoot it. Rifle will be inexpensive, ammo will be inexpensive and you will learn good traits.

3) Get some instruction. Even if it is from a family friend who takes marksmanship serious.

I know the lure of the big boom is contagious when you're 18, but time spent actually learning to shoot rather than just making noise will pay off for you in the future.

I can't tell you how many guys I can outshoot at the range with my milsurp Swede 96 and iron sights, compared to their Remington/Winchester/Savage Magnum-boomer with 3-9x40 scope. Mostly because they learned to pull the trigger instead of actually learning to shoot.

Vityaz
March 11, 2008, 03:42 PM
MOA stands for minute of angle. It translates to roughly 1" at 100 yards, 2" at 200 yards, 3" at 300 yards and so on.

porsche
March 11, 2008, 03:54 PM
what Jamkris said . there's a website article on the M44 that tells of a burly weight lifter, ex marine, who is having trouble with the kick and muzzle blast from this short, light, hi-power rifle. this is a military rifle and when the adrenilin flows the shooter will not feel the kick. target shooting is something else. starting with a .22, and asking for instruction from someone who can teach the basics is a critical foundation to your enjoyment of this sport. to me, starting with this rifle is like learning to shoot a handgun on full power .357 loads.

35Rem
March 11, 2008, 04:17 PM
If it's what you want, go to Wideners. Hopefully you can look at the rifle before you buy it, too. The difference in cost is $20, not $30. The reason i bring this up is even if you bought the cheapest Mosin ($60 at J&G) plus shipping ($16) plus a local FFL transfer (this is where you fill out the Federal form and the dealer calls in for a background check (The NICS thing) (cost about $20 to $30).
This will make the $60 wholesale rifle cost $96 to $106.
If Wideners is close enough to you, go there are pick one out for $99, plus tax (I'm sure).

ihaveworms
March 11, 2008, 06:07 PM
starting with this rifle is like learning to shoot a handgun on full power .357 loads.
Actually prosche, the first round I ever fired was a .38 special and then a .357 mag.

I have shot a .22. I want more power. I liked the .223 that my uncle let me use, but it is pretty expensive and I can not afford that. I have also fired .45 ACP 1911. It was pretty beefy.

The .22 was a good plinker, but I want something more powerful.

Cosmoline
March 11, 2008, 06:29 PM
The recoil isn't that bad at all. An M44 is nine pounds of rifle firing a .30'06 class cartridge. The steel buttplate can give a little more smack than a plastic one, but most of the rep on the M44 comes from the psychological impact of the huge muzzle flash.

If you want *real* recoil, try B Bore .45-70 +p out of a Ruger No. 1.

cracked butt
March 11, 2008, 07:21 PM
Don't buy a Russian* M44 sight unseen. Do buy it if you personally inspect it and find that the bore looks brand new- I've seen a few of these around, I've also seen a few that the bore was so corroded out that you couldn't see rifling. Wholesalers advertise a lot of these rifles as 'arsenal refinished' or 'arsenal refurbished' which really means nothing more than the stock was refinished- the bores can vary from new to completely worn out.


* I have to emphasize the word 'Russian' or Cosmoline will beat me over the head with a 'Tikka' stick. LOL.

elmerfudd
March 11, 2008, 07:43 PM
Accuracy of MN's is highly variable and adding a scope isn't necessarily a good idea. I've got a decent shooting M39 Finn. Not great for a Finn, but it shoots better than 90% of Russian MN's. My buddy bought one of the $79 91/30's and refinished and scoped it. He was all stoked up to outshoot my other buddies $900 Bushmaster with a $79 surplus rifle. Anyway, I challenged him first with my M39 and iron sights and I smoked him. We fired 10 shots each at 100 yards and all ten of mine were in the black with about 8 of them in a 2" circle. Even with the scope his were in about a 5" group with none of them particularly grouped together.

I've got 4 other MN's in my safe. Only one of them is a decent shooter. My M44 will shoot about 2.5" groups with good ammo, (the bore on that one looks like new and the metalwork is excellent). I have a 91/30 hex receiver that shoots about 3.5" groups another that shoots maybe 6" groups and one that can't hit the side of a barn from inside. It literally shoots about 12" patterns at 10 yards.

Franco2shoot
March 11, 2008, 09:44 PM
For me, it starts with the bore. There is no substitute for good rifling. I picked up my 91/30 pulled the bolt out and saw sharp grooves. Next is a solid stock. Again, the one I purchased had a solid stock with no repairs. Finally, I took it apart, at least into the three major pieces, inspected everything and found no faults. Since the initial purchase, I used blue thread lock on the tang screw and the screw in front of the magazine. They are torqued down nice and tight. I have used J&B bore polish on the barrel, and I put a shim under the barrel to tighten the clamping effect of the forestock. Mine shoots 1 inch groups at 100 yards with almost any ammunition. With high priced ammo it does only marginally better. The stock has been refinished, and the Scope is a Bushnell 60-18x50 $125. buck special from Wally world. I think the real key is inspecting the bore and getting the best/sharpest rifling you can. It seems to produce a slightly tighter pattern without the bayonet attached, but its more of a hoot to shoot with that pig sticker sticking out over the firing line.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=74026&d=1204314137

Total investment $195 bucks.... and a pack of 20 7.62x54r for 5 bucks, what's not to like.

KKKKFL

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