Have a SBR question around a 1911


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TCB in TN
March 10, 2008, 09:31 PM
OK this maybe a strange question, but I have been thinking about building a 1911. I have a family that are good machinists, and I was thinking about building a little gun that would be a lot like my quirky personality. If I start with a 1911 frame, have a shoulder stock machined, and only buy a custom barrel that is 16 1/8 inches are longer (would be the only 1911 barrel that I own) would I need to register it as a SBR? Think Browning Buckmark Rifle, in 45 auto!

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.cheese.
March 10, 2008, 09:44 PM
There's a 1911 rifle? Oh... guess not.

Where are you going to buy a 16 inch 1911 barrel?

When all is said and done with, wouldn't you just prefer to get a pistol caliber carbine premade for probably 1/2 of what that project will cost you?

ETA: Sounds like a nifty project. If you make it, I want to see a pic. I don't know the answer to your question though. Sorry.

bogie
March 10, 2008, 09:52 PM
There's actually a company that makes a dealie that you can use with a 1911 to make a carbine. Looks a little too duck-dogers for me tho... Remember - you need to keep that barrel free to move...

PTK
March 10, 2008, 09:52 PM
It would be a rifle, not a SBR, as long as the barrel was 16" or longer and the OAL was 26" or longer.

One thing to note is that 1911s do not function well with longer barrels without a LOT of tinkering. Good luck.

TCB in TN
March 10, 2008, 09:55 PM
The primary reason that I am not wanting to go with a pistol caliber carbine is that I kinda like being unique and different.

Conqueror
March 10, 2008, 10:51 PM
You can make a rifle from a pistol without SBR registration, but not the other way around. That's why MechTech 1911 carbine conversions are legal, the barrel is over 16" and the OAL is over 26".

TCB in TN
March 10, 2008, 11:13 PM
Wow, I have never seen one of those, but that is very similar to my initial drawings. I sat down with my uncle the other day and we talked about how to make it a go. He can machine just about anything but I might be better off just buying one of these for him to look at and then making a couple for my berreta/taurus 9mms also.

Phil DeGraves
March 11, 2008, 09:36 AM
The Boland 1911 carbine came out about twenty years ago.

Dionysusigma
March 11, 2008, 10:01 AM
I thought you were going to go the route of completely machining a mainspring housing with a stock coming out of it. Not sure how the barrel thing was going to work, though, unless you drilled out porting in some... very unusual places in the barrel so that it would move accordingly.

A MechTech, though? They work, but they're ugly. Making your own opens the possiblity of getting over that drawback. :)

bogie
March 11, 2008, 11:49 AM
And are you married to .45 ACP? There's plenty of carbines in other calibers... I have a .357 Winchester Trapper lever gun that's just a sweet little thing... And I'm considering getting an M1 carbine this spring...

BattleChimp Potemkin
March 11, 2008, 12:00 PM
There was a kit like that in Sportsmans guide. Came with a 16" barrel and a sholderstock/mainspring housing. It was about $240 I think. Anyways, you can also get a 16" barrel from Sarco. I thought at one time it would be cool to just put the stock on and keep the barrel 5" (SBR?). But the entire kit (no part missing or substituted) should not be a SBR, but just be careful around folks. They will yell ATF at you all day if you have something cooler than they do (;) ). Be really careful b/c would the ownership of both barrels and stock be "contructive ownership" or what not? Plus, wouldn't the longer barrel give lockup and cycling issues? I had the mectec conversion for my Glock model 19 and it was a PITA. Not to mention, .45 does not give that much velocity difference with heavier rounds (230) with longer barrel, only the light stuff (somewhat similar to 9x19) according to all the reloading manuals I have.

230RN
March 11, 2008, 12:09 PM
Hi-Point?

Would be almost as ugly as what you're proposing. :)

'Cept I guess they don't make them in .45 ACP.

Titan6
March 11, 2008, 01:09 PM
I see these from time to time on gun shops with either 1911 or Glock lowers. The Glock lowers are a little better as the Glock has higher capacity magazines (at least in the free states it does). They are not really as handy as a Carbine like the Hi-Point or Marlin but some people really like them.

I was going to buy one last year and then bought a Hi-Point instead. Can't say I am disappointed.

rcmodel
March 11, 2008, 03:12 PM
It is very doubtful you could get a 1911 with a 16"+ barrel to even function as a semi-auto.

Too much moving mass and inertia when the barrel links down to unlock, then again when it tries to go back into battery.
It would be flapping up & down out on the end like a broken barn door!

rcmodel

TEDDY
March 11, 2008, 04:15 PM
during WW! we had a 1911 with shoulder stock a la luger and a 25 rd mag.used in aircraft to shoot at enemy planes.there was a Luger carbine with 12" barrel and 32 rd mag and wood forgrip. theres nothing new only some did not work.:rolleyes:----:confused:---:uhoh:

entropy
March 11, 2008, 04:20 PM
You wouldn't want to have any barrels shorter than 16" in your possession while owning said carbine either, even if in another pistol; a couple minutes swapping out slide assemblies and you're on your way to Club Fed.....:what:

the naked prophet
March 11, 2008, 05:01 PM
I'm pretty sure that as long as there's a legal way to assemble the parts you have, posession is legal. That was established with the Thompson/Center guns, being very modular single shot rifles/pistols. Some people had both a rifle and pistol of the same frame type, and it was possible to assemble them in an illegal configuration. However, because they could use all the parts to assemble legal firearms, it was not illegal to own parts that simply could be assembled illegally.

RPCVYemen
March 11, 2008, 05:04 PM
Too much moving mass and inertia when the barrel links down to unlock, then again when it tries to go back into battery.
It would be flapping up & down out on the end like a broken barn door!

I don't quite understand how it would work for the same reason. My sense is that the 1911 design more or less requires the barrel to pivot on/near the bushing.

It seems to me like for your design, either the slide has to be long enough to keep the weight of the barrel behind the pivot. If you do that, you are moving a pretty massive slide around.

If you don't make the slide near as long as the barrel, won't the barrel want to "seesaw" on the bushing?

I also don't know how the timing will work out. With a 1911 pistol, my impression is that the slide doesn't move very much until after the bullet leaves the barrel. With a very long barrel, won't the slide start to move while the bullet is still in the barrel? If that's right, won't that make accuracy a challenge?

Mike

Eightball
March 11, 2008, 05:55 PM
http://www.mechtechsys.com/1911.html

That's easier.

Though, is it legal to go from pistol, to that thing, back to pistol again? Or is it a "once done, it stays like that" type deal?

TCB in TN
March 11, 2008, 11:45 PM
And are you married to .45 ACP? There's plenty of carbines in other calibers... I have a .357 Winchester Trapper lever gun that's just a sweet little thing... And I'm considering getting an M1 carbine this spring...

I am a big lever gun fan own several currently, and have a buddy who is supposed to be bringing me a little 16in 30/30 saddle carbine when he come in from West Tn, but I wanted to do something VERY different.

I don't quite understand how it would work for the same reason. My sense is that the 1911 design more or less requires the barrel to pivot on/near the bushing.

It seems to me like for your design, either the slide has to be long enough to keep the weight of the barrel behind the pivot. If you do that, you are moving a pretty massive slide around.

If you don't make the slide near as long as the barrel, won't the barrel want to "seesaw" on the bushing?

I also don't know how the timing will work out. With a 1911 pistol, my impression is that the slide doesn't move very much until after the bullet leaves the barrel. With a very long barrel, won't the slide start to move while the bullet is still in the barrel? If that's right, won't that make accuracy a challenge?


I have read of several different people who have done it successfully, and my uncle (who does pretty decent machine work and owns and shots 1911's) has looked over the materials, diagrams and played a little already. (especially with light weight material for a longer slide) and feels like he can overcome the issues. I am just concerned about staying legal when and if I get this thing worked out. Both he and I may be wrong, but he has the equipment, and we have the time to play, so as long as we don't do anything to get the BATF boys upset with me!

Conqueror
March 12, 2008, 12:08 AM
Though, is it legal to go from pistol, to that thing, back to pistol again? Or is it a "once done, it stays like that" type deal?

You can go back and forth all you want. Perfectly legal on a pistol receiver - not legal on a rifle receiver. That's why mechtechs are for pistol lowers.

Eightball
March 12, 2008, 12:32 AM
You can go back and forth all you want. Perfectly legal on a pistol receiver - not legal on a rifle receiver. That's why mechtechs are for pistol lowers.That clears it up a heckuva lot. Just so long as it qualifies as a rifle, and not an SBR, you're golden?

Conqueror
March 12, 2008, 12:45 AM
Correct.

Pistol receiver, barrel under 16", no stock: legal
Pistol receiver, barrel over 16", shoulder stock: legal (if OAL over 26")
Pistol receiver, barrel under 16", shoulder stock: SBR

Rifle receiver, barrel over 16", shoulder stock: legal
Rifle receiver, barrel under 16", no stock: SBR
Rifle receiver, barrel under 16", shoulder stock: SBR

Taking a carbine upper off/onto a pistol lower simply swaps you back and forth between the top 2 options, both of which are legal.

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