Off-duty cop kills man in bar fight


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funnybone
March 10, 2008, 10:21 PM
'He just in a drunken rage started firing up gunshots'


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58585

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Bazooka Joe71
March 10, 2008, 10:24 PM
Wow.

rbernie
March 10, 2008, 10:31 PM
http://cbs2.com/local/Off.duty.police.2.673116.html

Huddog
March 10, 2008, 10:33 PM
Just goes to show that Firearms and Alcohol do not mix.

HK G3
March 10, 2008, 10:37 PM
Just goes to show that Firearms and Alcohol do not mix.

I'd amend that statement to say that "firearms and whackos do not mix" ;)

I still remember when the Daily Show mocked AZ for trying to allow guns in bars... The skit they did was pretty amusing. Had Colbert shooting a silhouette with a .38 snub, missing a lot. The he started drinking a lot of booze, and came back to the firing line holding a SPAS-12 or something, and blew the target to shreds! :)

plexreticle
March 10, 2008, 10:37 PM
>>Just goes to show that Firearms and Alcohol do not mix.

I agree but, I've been plenty drunk and it's never occurred to me to start shooting people.

Snipe315
March 10, 2008, 10:40 PM
I'll withhold comments until ALL the facts are in.

One side of a story is just that... one side. I read that the police officer had to go to the hospital to get stitches in his head. Darn unlikely that he sustained those injuries after shots were fired. If, has he said, he was attacked by several people, he might not have had any choice but to draw and fire his weapon.

:uhoh:

Right now we don't know enough of the details to say what happened.

:barf:

mekender
March 10, 2008, 11:05 PM
good point

Larryect
March 10, 2008, 11:45 PM
I read this recently and thought I had seen a lot more detail. Don't count on anything from the LA Times.....

So, here it is:


http://www.pe.com/localnews/temecula/stories/PE_News_Local_D_shooting10.38a622d.html

Killing jolts Old Town Temecula

By SARAH BURGE and HERBERT ATIENZA
The Press-Enterprise

TEMECULA - Old Town Temecula was teeming with visitors again Sunday despite a shooting Saturday night that left one man dead and another hospitalized just hours after the annual spring Rod Run had ended.

Organizers and Old Town business owners said Sunday they hope the incident will not cast a cloud over the popular biannual event.

An off-duty Costa Mesa police officer opened fire on a group of men who were beating him outside the Bank of Mexican Food restaurant at the corner of Old Town Front and Main streets about 7:20 p.m., said Riverside County sheriff's spokesman Deputy Craig Roberts.

The man identified himself as a police officer at some point before he opened fire, Roberts said, but apparently that did not deter the men, who were attacking him and might even have struck him with a chair. Roberts said he did not know what provoked the fight. The two men the officer shot were both taken to an area hospital, where one of them died Saturday night, Roberts said. The officer was treated for injuries that were not life threatening. None of their names was released Sunday.

Roberts said the law allows off-duty officers to carry firearms.

Craig Puma, owner of the Bank of Mexican Food, said the officer had been inside the restaurant celebrating his girlfriend's birthday with friends.

When the gunfire broke out, Puma said, he tried to tell everyone inside the restaurant to get down, but some patrons thought he was joking and that the gunfire was some kind of historical reenactment because of the neighborhood's Old West theme.

Annual Fundraiser

Puma called the shooting an isolated incident, adding that he hopes it will not reflect poorly on the neighborhood or the Rod Run.

"It was an incident that could have happened anywhere. It doesn't have anything to do with the Rod Run," Puma said. "We have no fear of this being an ongoing problem."

Organizers of the Temecula Rod Run are distancing the charity event from the fatal shooting.

Ray Waite, president of P and R Foundation, promoter of the event, said the Rod Run was over for hours when the shooting occurred.

"If somebody got shot two hours after the Super Bowl, do you blame the Super Bowl for it?" Waite asked. "It had nothing to do with Rod Run. I was home relaxing when it happened and everyone else associated with Rod Run was gone when it happened."

He said the 22nd year of the Rod Run attracted 20,000 people Friday and 60,000 people Saturday and the events were held without any hitches. The event featured 650 hot rods and classic cars and raised money for the Boys and Girls Club of Southwest Riverside County and other groups.

Temecula Mayor Mike Naggar said he was at the event both days and felt safe the entire time.

"This was one of the best Rod Runs we've had in years," Naggar said. "We had more than ample police presence."

He said there are no plans to reconsider staging the event, although a review could be done to avoid similar incidents in the future.

Event Draws Crowds

At the Rod Run in 1997, police arrested 57 people, most during a brawl that authorities said erupted between groups of drunken juveniles and young adults.

Waite said the Rod Run has been wholesome and peaceful in recent years. He said the event raised about $45,000 for charitable groups last year.

Thom Curry, co-owner of the Temecula Olive Oil Co. at the corner of Old Town Front and Main streets, said he had just closed up the store and left for the day when the shooting happened. When he arrived at the store early Sunday morning, the crime-scene tape was still up and evidence markers dotted Main Street. Curry said he was surprised to hear that two men had been shot, but not that there had been a fight. The Rod Run draws a lot of people and many drink, Curry said.

"There's too many people. There's a lot of obnoxious behavior. It seems to get worse over the years," Curry said. "I think it's kind of inevitable that something was going to happen. Maybe the event has outgrown this venue."

Curry wondered whether it might have helped if the increased number of police patrolling the Rod Run had stayed until the bars cleared out for the night, too.

"It's a shame that that had to happen," Curry said. "This used to be such a sleepy little town."

Reach Sarah Burge at 951-375-3736 or sburge@PE.com

Reach Herbert Atienza at 951-763-3464 or hatienza@PE.com

TexasRifleman
March 11, 2008, 12:38 AM
Right now we don't know enough of the details to say what happened.

Yeah, the second report almost sounds like self defense.

Hard to tell still.

Scanr
March 11, 2008, 12:44 AM
Ayoob tells a similar story in his book, Gravest Extreme. In the book the people that were shot ended up suing the city and the officer.

USMCDK
March 11, 2008, 01:09 AM
This is so BS on both sides. The officer knowing the law shouldn't have a firearm while drinking alcohol, it's a misterminor to do so and a felony to operate and or shot someone while under the influence, if I remember well from watching the show "Cops". Neeedless to say the officer shouldn't have had the weapon on his person while he had alcohol in his system.

Now to tell the other side of my opinion...

I can't see why the "group" (undetermined number) of men decided it would be a good idea to assault a man that just told them "Hey I am a cop". then again alcohol was involed and does impair judgement.


Also I have to agree with curry there should have and should be, from now on, more officers in the area until AFTER the bars close. I mean c'mon we here in New Hampshire have Motor-cycle week and weekend, and when that happens it cop city galore until the bars are closed, just for the sake of this same kinda BS incident that could have been, helped to be, avoided.

In closing....

Alcohol and firearms don't mix and firearms and idiots don't mix. all to true statements.

point in case don't bring firearms to a bar you idiot.

Albatross
March 11, 2008, 01:20 AM
Sounds like a group of men thought they were going to stomp a lone dude and got a lot more than they could handle.

I don't see how being in a bar and having a drink factors into this at all. It's legal to carry in bars here in Oregon and people carry and drink (moderately) all the time without incident.

Just because a man has a couple drinks doesn't mean he suddenly becomes an irresponsible lunatic.

I just don't see how having a drink/being in a bar/partying with your friends means you should loose the right to bear arms. If he wasn't being assaulted and he really did just "start shooting wildly" string him up, but based upon the officers trip to the hospital to get stitches I'd bet this shoot was justified.

mekender
March 11, 2008, 01:37 AM
This is so BS on both sides. The officer knowing the law shouldn't have a firearm while drinking alcohol, it's a misterminor to do so and a felony to operate and or shot someone while under the influence, if I remember well from watching the show "Cops". Neeedless to say the officer shouldn't have had the weapon on his person while he had alcohol in his system.

and if it turns out that the cop wasnt drinking or had only had one drink... and the shooting was justified then what?

oh hell, even if he were trashed, what if his actions stopped a robbery, rape or other such crime?

i know if im at home and drinking and the SHTF, ill shoot and worry about the BAC% later... my state makes it illegal to carry at any place that serves alcohol so i couldnt drink while out and about... but strangely enough, its only illegal to conceal while under the influence, open carry is not addressed...

and even more so, we still do not have any hard evidence that the cop was indeed drinking or drunk... well if you coult news statements from the dead guys friends who were probably part of the altercation and mom(who probably wasnt there)

as a LEO, the IAB will damn sure find out what happened, and i would bet that he was forced to submit to a BAC test that evening

Yosemite**Sam
March 11, 2008, 02:01 AM
This is so BS on both sides. The officer knowing the law shouldn't have a firearm while drinking alcohol, it's a misterminor to do so and a felony to operate and or shot someone while under the influence, if I remember well from watching the show "Cops". Neeedless to say the officer shouldn't have had the weapon on his person while he had alcohol in his system.

Not so sure that it's a misdemeanor in California. But again gun's and alcohol don't mix. At the very least during the pending law suits the shooters sobriety will have an effect on the outcome.

Old Dog
March 11, 2008, 03:37 AM
misterminor Huh?

Maybe I'm missing something, but the only reporting that states the cop was drunk was WorldNetDaily (and if you rely on WND for accurate and balanced news stories ... well, good luck with that).

He was in a Mexican restaurant. Celebrating his girlfriend's birthday.

Yeah, he may have thrown down a couple Dos Equis. But wait 'til the facts come out, folks.

point in case don't bring firearms to a bar you idiot. That's right, only the criminals should bring their guns to bars.

Grizzly Adams
March 11, 2008, 03:17 PM
As Old Dog says, the only direct evidence presented is that he was in a "restaurant" celebrating his girlfriends's birthday. There has been not evidence brought forward that says that he was drinking. LEO are permitted to carry in bars! Whether you like it or not that is one of the privileges they have over us normal joes!

Eric F
March 11, 2008, 03:27 PM
So what the cop gets a pass just because he is a cop?

Mad Chemist
March 11, 2008, 03:32 PM
Some departments require their officers to carry off-duty.

Mad Chemist
March 11, 2008, 03:34 PM
Erik, maybe you should have reread to post immediately prior to yours before posting.

DoubleTapDrew
March 11, 2008, 03:45 PM
Apparently mexican food and firearms don't mix (was he even drinking)? Also, if you choose to have a beer with dinner leave your firearm in your vehicle where it can get stolen, criminals only attack people who haven't had anything to drink and NEVER hit restaurants or bars. :uhoh:

Eric F
March 11, 2008, 03:50 PM
he was in a drunked rage and just started fireing
right from the vid clip from a witness perhaps you did not heat the word drunken Mad Chemist. I beleive they may cary in bars so long as they are not drinking, but please correct me if I am wrong here.

buzz_knox
March 11, 2008, 03:57 PM
I beleive they may cary in bars so long as they are not drinking, but please correct me if I am wrong here.

Depends on the particular regulations under which they are carrying. My understanding is that some jurisdictions only prohibit excessive drinking while carrying a weapon.

There are too few facts in evidence to figure out what happened beyond 1) there was a fight, 2) a cop was involved and 3) the cop shot some of the participants. There are quite a few scenarios in which the only thing the cop did wrong in this situation was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Further facts will need to come to light before a reasoned opinion can be supported.

Old Dog
March 11, 2008, 04:01 PM
So what the cop gets a pass just because he is a cop?
Who's saying he gets a pass?

And, well, Eric, ya think it's at all possible that the only witness who referred to the cop as drunk just might've been a friend or acquaintance of the group of men who were beating on the cop?

An off-duty Costa Mesa police officer opened fire on a group of men who were beating him outside the Bank of Mexican Food restaurant at the corner of Old Town Front and Main streets about 7:20 p.m., said Riverside County sheriff's spokesman Deputy Craig Roberts.

The man identified himself as a police officer at some point before he opened fire, Roberts said, but apparently that did not deter the men, who were attacking him and might even have struck him with a chair.

In some states, you can carry concealed in bars ... even, shockingly enough, as a private citizen. At any rate, I've no problem whatsoever with any California cops packin' in bars, 'cause all the criminals down there are packin' in the bars, too. You see, Eric, the bad guys aren't like you and me -- they don't obey those pesky little laws. Now, if you're in the saloon when Stupid 1 and Stupid 2 pull out their heaters and start waving 'em around, or worse, shootin' 'em 'cause they're POed at each other over some biker chick or a pool game, do you want all the good guys to be unarmed?

AKCOP
March 11, 2008, 04:03 PM
One of the first things I was told by a seasoned cop when I started was if you are going to drink, put the guns away. If you are going to an event where alcohol is present and you pack you better make damn sure you are not drinking, not even one beer period. As an armed off duty officer you should never put yourself in a position to be tactically disadvantaged and drinking does just that. It will be interesting to see how this all turns out but the cop begins in a bad spot if he was consuming alcohol.

Titan6
March 11, 2008, 04:05 PM
Clearly it was not the gun's fault this time. It was the fault of the alcohol?

buzz_knox
March 11, 2008, 04:08 PM
Clearly it was not the gun's fault this time. It was the fault of the alcohol?

Alcohol doesn't kill people. People kill people. :D

Titan6
March 11, 2008, 04:11 PM
People kill people.

Not in California. It always the fault of something else. There is no personal responsibility for anything in that state.

buzz_knox
March 11, 2008, 04:15 PM
Not in California. It always the fault of something else. There is no personal responsibility for anything in that state.

Yup. The Nanny state mentality is never quite so profoundly expressed as the product safety labels on everything (including hotel doors) that might contain chemicals "known by the state to cause cancer." The Hotel del Coronado has them in a very nice brass, but they still stick out like a zit on a supermodel.

I wonder when California is going to put a sign on exterior doors stating that the sun is known to cause cancer.

Biker
March 11, 2008, 04:30 PM
I shoot better after a few brews. I've been involved in ultra-violent situations while imbibing. I won and survived the civil aftermath.

Don't believe everything you're told or everything you read folks.

Live your life as you want and to hell with the bad guys.

Biker

Larryect
March 11, 2008, 04:30 PM
BTW, in California if you have a CCW you are allowed to carry in a resturant that serves alcohol, but not a bar. Not sure about drinking, but I suspect it sure wouldn't look good. By most reports this was a resturant. And I wonder about the motivation by the people intervied on camera....

mekender
March 11, 2008, 06:50 PM
right from the vid clip from a witness perhaps you did not heat the word drunken Mad Chemist. I beleive they may cary in bars so long as they are not drinking, but please correct me if I am wrong here.

and i believe that said witness was identified in the video as one of the dead guys friends... my suspicion is that this supposed witness was either part of the attack or at the very least urging it on...

now if the bartender was the one claiming the guy was drunk, ok thats one thing... but to me the dead guys friends arent reliable witnessess

Larryect
March 11, 2008, 08:43 PM
The story just gets more murky.

http://www.pe.com/localnews/temecula/stories/PE_News_Local_S_shooting11.3bccfa4.html

Accounts of fatal shooting in Old Town Temecula differ



08:29 AM PDT on Tuesday, March 11, 2008

By SARAH BURGE
The Press-Enterprise

TEMECULA - Sheriff's officials on Monday identified the two men shot Saturday night in Temecula by an off-duty Costa Mesa police officer, but declined to release the name of the officer who fired the shots.

Shaun Vilan, 30, of Temecula, died Saturday at a local hospital. Taylor Willis, 22, also of Temecula, was hospitalized with gunshot wounds but survived.

Sheriff's spokesman Jerry Franchville said Riverside County will leave the decision about releasing the officer's name to the Costa Mesa Police Department, which is conducting its own internal investigation into the shooting. Costa Mesa police, in turn, referred all questions about the shooting to the Riverside County Sheriff's Department.

Friends and family of Vilan, as well as the owner of the restaurant where the incident began, are speaking out.

Stories Conflict

But their accounts of what happened could not be more different.

The restaurant owner says the officer was not drinking and was merely defending himself from a group of drunken men. Vilan's family and friends say the officer was drunk and confrontational.

Investigators on Monday were still interviewing witnesses and sheriff's officials would not say whether any of those involved might have been intoxicated.

Riverside County sheriff's spokesman Deputy Craig Roberts said during the weekend that an off-duty Costa Mesa police officer opened fire on a group of men who were beating him outside the Bank of Mexican Food restaurant at the corner of Old Town Front and Main streets about 7:20 p.m. The officer, who was treated for injuries that were not life-threatening, identified himself as a police officer at some point before he opened fire, Roberts said. Roberts said he did not know what provoked the fight.

Craig Puma, owner of the Bank of Mexican Food, said Sunday that the officer had not been drinking alcohol at his establishment. He said Vilan and his friends went after the officer, presumably because they were angry about an encounter with him earlier in the evening. Puma said the officer had slapped the behind of a woman with Vilan's group, thinking she was his girlfriend. It was an innocent mistake, Puma said, and the officer apologized.

Vilan's friends agreed that they first encountered the officer in the open-air bar about an hour before the shooting. Nicole Kitley, 28, a friend of Vilan's, said the officer hit her on the behind.

"He slapped me really hard," she said, and when she turned around, "He said, 'Oh, I thought you were my sister.' "

"I could tell he was drunk," she said, and he did not apologize. "He was being very confrontational," she said, and Vilan spoke up in her defense.

Dara Lewenthal, 27, Vilan's girlfriend, said she was upset to see the restaurant owner on the television news saying that she and Vilan had been drinking excessively and had been kicked out of several bars.

"He had his 7-year-old son with him," said Kevin Kitley, 29, a friend of Vilan's.

"It's not like they were bar hopping," added Vilan's mother, Karen Crowley.

Vilan had come out to see the Rod Run on Saturday afternoon with several friends -- all classic car enthusiasts -- and his son, Dillan, Lewenthal said. Although they had had a few drinks, they were not intoxicated, she said. Lewenthal said the group was only at the Bank of Mexican Food for about an hour and she stayed outside with Dillan.

Vilan's friends and family said the officer and a couple of his friends waited for Vilan outside. The officer confronted Vilan and four others as they were leaving, they said. There was an argument, but Vilan's friends and family say no one struck the officer.

They said the man did not announce that he was a police officer before he fired. He identified himself, they said, when the Temecula police arrived.

Mike Brooks, Vilan's brother, said he saw the officer shoot Vilan in the chest. Everyone scattered, Brooks said, but the officer kept shooting. Vilan tried to run away, too, but collapsed on the pavement, Brooks said.

"He shot two people and he had alcohol in his system and they just sent him home," Kevin Kitley said.

Gathered with Vilan's friends and siblings around her kitchen table Monday morning, Vilan's mother, Crowley, said she is worried that investigators will be too quick to side with the officer. She fears they will not give her son the benefit of the doubt because he served six years in prison for an assault.

Crowley said she felt that investigators treated her disrespectfully at the hospital, too.They were at the hospital for four hours, she said, before police finally told her her son was dead.

Second Man Wounded

Crowley said the other man who was shot, Willis, was still hospitalized Monday, with two gunshot wounds and broken bones.

Crowley said Vilan graduated in 1995 from Temecula Valley High School, where he had been a good student. He earned a bachelor's degree while in prison and he was working on a master's. He had been out of prison for more than two years and was employed as a day trader. He owned a house in Temecula, Crowley said, and drove a BMW.

Asked what Vilan's interests were, Lewenthal said, with a grin, "Working out and snakes."

Kevin Kitley said Vilan bred rare snakes. He kept about 30 snakes in his Temecula home, he said.

They said Vilan woke up at 4:45 a.m. everyday to check the stock market and was in bed by 9 p.m. He worked out regularly after work, they said.

"It's hard to summarize somebody's life," Kitley said, tearing up as he talked about being friends with Vilan as a child.

"Shaun was a very loved person. He had a lot of friends," Lewenthal said.

At 6:30 p.m. today, she said, they plan to fill the Old Town street where Vilan was shot to hold a vigil in his memory.

Reach Sarah Burge at 951-375-3736 or sburge@PE.com

buck00
March 11, 2008, 10:25 PM
Sounds like a group of men thought they were going to stomp a lone dude and got a lot more than they could handle

I'm really wary of this. It always seems like people who advocate carrying in bars are the ones who have never been in a bar fight.

The issue at hand here, beyond the alcohol and impaired judgements, is a bar fight is completely different than a street fight or home invasion. Stay with me here, if a guy in a ski mask tackles you on your front lawn at 3 am, you have a right to do whatever you have to do to neutralize him (including lethal force). If a guy tackles you in a bar, and you shoot him- that is murder. You can argue "but what if he was attacking me?!?" yeah that happens in bars, you deal with it like a man, you don't shoot people.

When I was younger and still going to bars, I was in a lot of fights. And yes, I've been attacked "by a group of men who thought they were going to stomp me". And back then, if I had a gun, and I shot them- I would have been guilty of manslaughter, plain and simple.

This cop is going down for this.

jcoiii
March 11, 2008, 10:51 PM
if a guy tackles you in a bar, and you shoot him- that is murder.

Not necessarily. I get what you're saying, but if someone employs what you reasonably perceive to be lethal force against you, it doesn't matter if you're at home or in a bar.

At least one account says that a group of men, at least the two that were shot, attacked the officer after he identified himself as an officer. Another account above states that the officer received stitches in his head. A reasonable person might conclude that they were in mortal danger.

Sir Aardvark
March 12, 2008, 12:28 AM
Here's more:

http://www.knbc.com/news/15569025/detail.html?rss=la&psp=news

Costa Mesa police Lt. Paul Dondero said the decision to withhold the name of the officer who killed Shaun Vilan is intended to protect the officer.

Riverside County sheriff's Investigator Jerry Franchville said the officer could be the victim of a possible assault. The officer was hit by a chair or other large object and knocked down, then attacked by a group of men, a sheriff's investigator said Tuesday.

An autopsy has been completed on Vilan, 30, but the results were not released, pending the investigation by sheriff's homicide investigators, according to the Riverside County coroner's office.

Franchville said an initial investigation determined that the officer was sitting in a chair outside a Mexican bar-restaurant when someone struck him with a chair or other large object from behind. The officer fell and was momentarily stunned but before he recovered, a group of men attacked him, Franchville said.

The officer was bleeding from the head and identified himself as a police officer, Franchville said. This determination is based on witness statements, Franchville said.

When the men did not stop the attack, he pulled out his gun and fired at the two men nearest him, Vilan and Taylor Willis, Franchville said.

Vilan was struck in the chest and left arm, and Willis was struck in a thigh and buttock, Franchville said.

Vilan's friends and family are expected to observe a moment of silence and share memories during a candlelight vigil in Old Town scheduled to start around 6:30 p.m. near the intersection of Main and Old Town Front streets in Temecula.

Kevin Kitley, who said he was Vilan's best friend, said the coroner's office has not allowed the dead man's family to see his body.

"All I want to do is go see my brother so that I could (say) goodbye," Kitley said.

"I'm just completely distraught," Kitley said. "I don't know what to do."

Witnesses claim that the police officer inappropriately touched Kitley's wife, Nicole, at the bar/restaurant in the 42000 block of Main Street on Saturday night. Vilan and several friends were celebrating the end of the annual Temecula Rod Run, a three-day car show, when a fight broke out about 7 p.m., authorities said.

Craig Puma, the owner of the restaurant, told the Riverside Press-Enterprise he did not think the off-duty officer had been drinking.

Vilan's family and friends, however, contend the officer was drinking so heavily he was cut off by the bartender.

Several witnesses told Riverside County sheriff's investigators that Vilan confronted the off-duty policeman when the officer slapped the behind of Nicole Kitley, who was with Vilan and his girlfriend, Dara Lewenthal.

Lewenthal said the officer pulled a handgun and began shooting into the crowd, striking Vilan in the chest and hitting his 22-year-old friend, Taylor Willis, in the leg.

Vilan's 7-year-old son was standing nearby, in the line of fire, but was not hurt, according to Lewenthal.

Temecula Police Chief Jerry Williams said witnesses saw the off-duty officer being punched and kicked by several people just before shots rang out. The officer reportedly suffered a gash on his head that took several staples to close.

Williams said the officer identified himself as a policeman before the shooting.

The officer was recuperating at home.

Franchville would not say if the Costa Mesa officer's service weapon was used in the shooting.

Anyone with more information about the shooting was urged to call sheriff's investigators at 760-393-3500 or 951-696-3000.

This story reports so much contradictory information that I need a scorecard to keep things straight.

Until the facts are in, the jury's out.

Bailey Guns
March 12, 2008, 07:54 AM
I'm really wary of this. It always seems like people who advocate carrying in bars are the ones who have never been in a bar fight.

The issue at hand here, beyond the alcohol and impaired judgements, is a bar fight is completely different than a street fight or home invasion. Stay with me here, if a guy in a ski mask tackles you on your front lawn at 3 am, you have a right to do whatever you have to do to neutralize him (including lethal force). If a guy tackles you in a bar, and you shoot him- that is murder. You can argue "but what if he was attacking me?!?" yeah that happens in bars, you deal with it like a man, you don't shoot people.

When I was younger and still going to bars, I was in a lot of fights. And yes, I've been attacked "by a group of men who thought they were going to stomp me". And back then, if I had a gun, and I shot them- I would have been guilty of manslaughter, plain and simple.

This cop is going down for this.

What??? Are you trying to say that the rules of self defense are void because you happen to be in a bar?

I don't know about the laws where you live but here they don't differentiate from one location to the next, other than inside a dwelling where one is afforded more protection in using self defense. If one is justified in using self defense, including lethal force, what does the location have to do with anything?

BattleChimp Potemkin
March 12, 2008, 08:24 AM
Actions inappropriate for Officer's conduct. That is why I always wait until about page 2 or 3 on these posts before going nuts! :) Anyway, the officer was in a bar, I would assume he was drinking and acting inappropriately. Why is information regarding a alcohol test not released? Fires into crowd? Bloody moron. I think I will go and sign that poll to make officers subject to same firearms laws as civilians... I dont care what some LEOs in here think, this is insanity. They have so many stringent tests that they let so many morons through the sieve. What about that LEO that beat the bartender rather recently? What about the guy in Ohio who killed his loved ones? When are PD going to take responsibility and focus on quality, rather than quantity?

cassandrasdaddy
March 12, 2008, 08:35 AM
ya'll are funny
the "witnesses" for the dead guy are his family and they claim the cop just opened fire. no one hit him. then after shooting thee two guys i guess he beat himself up. some folks aree right peculiar about cops. guess they never got over that speeding ticket or that cop who talked mean to em when he took their bag of weed

buzz_knox
March 12, 2008, 08:40 AM
ya'll are funny
the "witnesses" for the dead guy are his family and they claim the cop just opened fire. no one hit him. then after shooting thee two guys i guess he beat himself up. some folks aree right peculiar about cops. guess they never got over that speeding ticket or that cop who talked mean to em when he took their bag of weed

Let's not go down that path. There's enough prejudice and division on both sides.

Until more evidence comes in, everything is based solely on he said/she said and personal biases.

ilbob
March 12, 2008, 08:46 AM
it appears that the dead guy may have been a bit of an unsavory character.

the cop slapping the dead guy's wife on the butt does not seem like a real bright thing to do in a bar.

sounds like plenty of dumb to go around.

MakAttak
March 12, 2008, 08:47 AM
I will have to say, the waters are significantly murky here.

However, this sounds like a good shoot: the only people saying he just went nuts and started shooting are the deceased's friends.

Also, six years in prison for assault?...

Bailey Guns
March 12, 2008, 08:51 AM
Actions inappropriate for Officer's conduct. That is why I always wait until about page 2 or 3 on these posts before going nuts! Anyway, the officer was in a bar, I would assume he was drinking and acting inappropriately. Why is information regarding a alcohol test not released? Fires into crowd? Bloody moron. I think I will go and sign that poll to make officers subject to same firearms laws as civilians... I dont care what some LEOs in here think, this is insanity. They have so many stringent tests that they let so many morons through the sieve. What about that LEO that beat the bartender rather recently? What about the guy in Ohio who killed his loved ones? When are PD going to take responsibility and focus on quality, rather than quantity?

Based on that logic you could reverse the argument and say civilians should be required to receive the same amount of training, or in fact more training - and refresher training - than do police officers. Because a couple of permit holders screw up are you willing to be subjected to monthly training (that you have to pay for) and quarterly qualifications (that you have to pay for)? After all, if all the training a cop receives isn't adequate how is the average CCW class/training adequate? Yeah...those states that issue permits should focus on quality, not quantity.

Not to mention you said you "assume" he was drinking and acting inappropriately, even though witness accounts (other than those close to the dead & wounded guys) disagree. And you say he's a bloody moron for firing into a crowd? Well, I can't comment on his intellectual abilities but his shooting abilities seem to be OK. After all, it sounds like he hit his intended target after being struck in the head with an object and being beaten. Even more impressive IF he had been drinking.

I'm not saying the guy was totally in the right. But to lay the blame squarely on him without regard to the actions of the other idiots, both convicted felons from what I can tell, is assinine. Until all the facts are known I'll admit to being more likely to side with the officer over two convicted felons, especially one who did 6 years in the joint for assault, any day.

BattleChimp Potemkin
March 12, 2008, 09:00 AM
Thats reasonable. I am actually in favor of stringent training for CCW holders (yeah, yeah, beat me up all you want, I already hear soap bars being put into pillow cases). I took a course or two in defensive pistolry (not a word?) and only after alot of personal training did I feel safe enough to go get my CCW. Its said he fired into the crowd, doesnt take a lot of skill, drunk or not. The article did not say he fired a failure drill into each suspect or similar. A drunk person can fire good enough at close range to hit a target, but maybe not to police ability, but that was not mentioned in the article. I hear of an off duty officer being beaten up and firing his gun into a crowd.

1. What was he doing in a bar? Investigation? Or just a little drinking (leading me to believe the bar folks b/c drinking has always brought out the worst in folks).
2. Why did he feel necessary to deploy a sidearm in a bar, with intent on lethal force? Should off duty officers be allowed to carry weapons in bars? (civilians generally arent allowed, so why should we have officers, who are stressed out after a long day, be able to carry a weapon and get into a clouded state of mind?)

I am not entirely sure of this case, however, I do have reservations as the officer's intentions and operandi...

ptmmatssc
March 12, 2008, 09:13 AM
1. What was he doing in a bar?

Read the news stories and posts etc . He was in a RESTAURANT celebrating his girlfriends birthday .


2. Why did he feel necessary to deploy a sidearm in a bar, with intent on lethal force? Should off duty officers be allowed to carry weapons in bars? (civilians generally arent allowed, so why should we have officers, who are stressed out after a long day, be able to carry a weapon and get into a clouded state of mind?)

Again , it wasn't a "bar" . And why does location matter when it comes to defense? It has also not be ascertained as to whether or not he was actually drinking .

I'm not defending actions by the officer since there are still "unknowns" , but I find it funny how people are more than willing to string him up based on limited and speculative info .

Grizzly Adams
March 12, 2008, 09:23 AM
There are a lot of confleicting reports coming out about this and the authorities will have to sort it out, but here is one I find insteresting.
Craig Puma, owner of the Bank of Mexican Food, said Sunday that the officer had not been drinking alcohol at his establishment. He said Vilan and his friends went after the officer, presumably because they were angry about an encounter with him earlier in the evening. Puma said the officer had slapped the behind of a woman with Vilan's group, thinking she was his girlfriend. It was an innocent mistake, Puma said, and the officer apologized.

Vilan's friends agreed that they first encountered the officer in the open-air bar about an hour before the shooting. Nicole Kitley, 28, a friend of Vilan's, said the officer hit her on the behind.

"He slapped me really hard," she said, and when she turned around, "He said, 'Oh, I thought you were my sister.' "

What I also find interesting is if the LEO wasn't attacked prior to the shooting how did he get the cuts to his head. I don't believe that someone was foolish to get close enough to hit him while he was wielding a gun!

Vilan's friends and family said the officer and a couple of his friends waited for Vilan outside. The officer confronted Vilan and four others as they were leaving, they said. There was an argument, but Vilan's friends and family say no one struck the officer.

They said the man did not announce that he was a police officer before he fired. He identified himself, they said, when the Temecula police arrived.

Mike Brooks, Vilan's brother, said he saw the officer shoot Vilan in the chest. Everyone scattered, Brooks said, but the officer kept shooting. Vilan tried to run away, too, but collapsed on the pavement, Brooks said.

BTW these are things I find interesting. I am not coming to any conclusions, just trying to balance things out a little. Let's let the process work and the experts do their job and present all the evidence to a grand jury!!

Bailey Guns
March 12, 2008, 09:27 AM
1. What was he doing in a bar? Investigation? Or just a little drinking (leading me to believe the bar folks b/c drinking has always brought out the worst in folks).
2. Why did he feel necessary to deploy a sidearm in a bar, with intent on lethal force? Should off duty officers be allowed to carry weapons in bars? (civilians generally arent allowed, so why should we have officers, who are stressed out after a long day, be able to carry a weapon and get into a clouded state of mind?)

Did you even read the articles?

1. As has been noted several times this was a restaurant. He was there celebrating his girlfriend's birthday.

2. If you were to hit me from behind with a chair or any other potentially lethal weapon you'd better be wearing some pretty good body armor. Bar, restaurant, church or anywhere else. Cuz I'm liable to shoot ya.

3. If you believe the "bar folks" then you must believe he was NOT drinking because that's what the "bar folks" said. Again...the only people who claimed he was drunk and out of control were the friends/relatives of the dead/wounded convicted felons who attacked the officer as he sat at a table having dinner with his girlfriend and celebrating her birthday.

4. Rules vary from state to state as to where one can carry. Here, there is no restriction on carry in bars unless the property owner disallows it. Regarding alcohol, the law states it's illegal to be in possession of a firearm while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or drugs or both. Do you know the ins and outs of concealed carry in California?

5. Having said all that, the totality of the circumstances are still unknown. It's possible the officer's actions were totally justifiable in terms of the law and his dept's policies or it could be they were not.

MakAttak
March 12, 2008, 09:29 AM
WARNING WARNING WARNING

SPECULATION AHEAD!!!:

With what has been reported, if it is discovered that the officer did require staples the deceased family will either claim:

1. He did it himself (possible, but less likely)

or

2. Yes, there was a MINOR incident but that in no way required the officer to shoot anyone.


Anyone wanna bet me it's gonna be #2?

Bailey Guns
March 12, 2008, 09:32 AM
The article did not say he fired a failure drill into each suspect or similar.

Do you actually think there are many reporters who would have a clue what a "failure drill" is? He still hit only his intended targets. He didn't just fire wildly into a crowd.

buzz_knox
March 12, 2008, 09:36 AM
What I also find interesting is if the LEO wasn't attacked prior to the shooting how did he get the cuts to his head. I don't believe that someone was foolish to get close enough to hit him while he was wielding a gun!


This isn't offered as a possible scenario but as an observation. Isn't "closing" with the shooter to take him down what so many suggest after every school shooting? Yet, it's considered to be even in the realm of possibility in situations like this. Granted, it's not plausible that this occurred here, but there's still that strange disconnect.

BattleChimp Potemkin
March 12, 2008, 09:42 AM
It does not matter what he was doing in a bar in my mind. One should NEVER mix alcohol and firearms! Never! It does not matter if you are a LEO or civilian. It does not matter what the law bloody is! This guy obviously missed that part of firearms safety and ethics. The guy was running around slapping behinds! This isnt a football locker room! This guy (regardless of alcohol or not) was not acting like an officer. When you accept that role in society, that is what they pay you for. You are to be the shining palladin of society,not hanging out in bars, slapping people's behinds.

Baily, I read the article. Im saying that people should really understand what they are to represent 24 hours a day when they take on the mantle of an officer. LEOs are not above the law and as of late, they have been taken off the hook a little more than I am willing (and you all should be too) to stomach. The guy was involved in a bar fight, meaning, even if it was not his fault, he was doing SOMETHING to make someone mad. Not too gentlemanly now is it? Do I want an officer to "have an arguement" with me, then waste me in a bar? No! Who wants that? Cops are getting too frisky with thier power and need to be reminded of what thier roles in society are. "I carry a gun, therefore, dont make me mad or I will bring down the fury of god's own thunder" seems to be a recurring theme on this forum and in armed society in general. Lets go back to "I'm armed, I will defend myself, but I have the self control not to kill one arbitrarily". The cop obviously did something in the arguement or did something before said arguement to make the folks mad enough to lash out against him. Did he id himself as an officer before deploying lethal force? Lets get things straight. I do agree I'm flying off the handle and need a chill pill though :(. But, it seems a little fishy for a cop to open up in a bar and no details, such as BAC levels or official statements, being released to the public. Seems to happen alot with cases involving cops (tin foil hat off).

cassandrasdaddy
March 12, 2008, 09:43 AM
if we edited the story so there was no mention of the shooter being a cop some of the same usual suspects, assuming the even read the articles, would be screaming how the shooter was being unfairly prosecuted and some would be chest beating about how they woulda handled the mob even more harshly. it does make a feller laugh though

cassandrasdaddy
March 12, 2008, 09:44 AM
you should read it again you seemed yo have missed a few if not most of the facts somehow


and please leave the hat on it might help and it can't hurt

buzz_knox
March 12, 2008, 09:49 AM
if we edited the story so there was no mention of the shooter being a cop some of the same usual suspects, assuming the even read the articles, would be screaming how the shooter was being unfairly prosecuted and some would be chest beating about how they woulda handled the mob even more harshly. it does make a feller laugh though

Agreed. But it cuts both ways. You would also see other "usual suspects" suggesting he shouldn't have been there, that he was looking for a fight, etc.

The presence or absence of a badge changes the way a lot of people see a situation, based on their own biases.

qwert65
March 12, 2008, 10:04 AM
6 years sounds like a long time for just assualt

Sans Authoritas
March 12, 2008, 10:13 AM
I'm not the biggest fan of the coercively-funded monopoly police trade. I'm seldom willing to give the badged civilian the benefit of the doubt.

We don't nearly have all the facts (or any facts) pinned down yet. But I want to make some clarifications.

1. You are never under any obligation to take on three unarmed people with your fists. A willingness to do so when it is not absolutely necessary is not "manly." It is stupid. Kind of like the idea of "we made a mistake going in, but it's not a mistake to stay there, because we've got to 'stay the course.'" It's stupid, prideful saving of face, and the price of saving face is people getting killed, in both cases.

2. If the cop smacked a woman on the rear that he thought was his friend and apologized when he found out it wasn't, it was stupid horseplay. If he knew it wasn't his sister/girlfriend, it was really stupid. Neither case merits a beat-down by three men.

If he was blindsided with a chair, that's more than enough to merit a response with potentially lethal force.

-Sans Authoritas

ilbob
March 12, 2008, 10:17 AM
The presence or absence of a badge changes the way a lot of people see a situation, based on their own biases.It also often changes the way an investigation is done, and how things are reported. It just muddies everything up to the point where it is unlikely anyone outside of those directly involved will ever know what really happened with any certainty.

ptmmatssc
March 12, 2008, 11:46 AM
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/03/11/news/top_stories/1_20_213_10_08.txt

TEMECULA -- The off-duty Costa Mesa police officer who shot and killed a Temecula man Saturday night in Old Town was hit from behind, possibly with a chair, then attacked by several men before he fired the fatal shots, investigators said Tuesday.

Those details come from independent witnesses who were not with either the officer or the man who was killed and corroborate statements given to investigators by the off-duty officer, said Sgt. Dennis Gutierrez, spokesman for the Riverside County Sheriff's Department.

Shaun Vilan, 30, was shot in the chest and arm, according to an autopsy conducted Monday.

Also shot was Taylor Willis, 22, of Temecula who was hit in the thigh, Gutierrez said.

The officer -- who has not been identified by authorities -- had not attended the Temecula Spring Rod Run, but went to The Bank of Mexican Food to eat, Gutierrez said.

Witnesses and the officer say he was sitting in a chair near Old Town Front and Main streets when he was attacked, the sergeant said. The attack was unprovoked, according to the investigation, and may have spilled over from an earlier encounter between the two sides inside an Old Town restaurant.

Witnesses told investigators that the officer identified himself as an off-duty officer and asked his attackers to stop, but the men continued to beat him, Gutierrez said.

It was then that he pulled out his off-duty weapon and fired five shots, hitting Vilan and Willis, the sergeant said.

Interesting what witnesses saw/heard compared to the story given by the group of the man killed .


.

cassandrasdaddy
March 12, 2008, 11:55 AM
funny how that works

should quiet down the thread though

cassandrasdaddy
March 12, 2008, 11:58 AM
removed

LeoC
March 12, 2008, 12:45 PM
http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/homepage/abox/article_1997168.php


Off-duty Costa Mesa officer jumped from behind, police say
Investigation continues into Temecula shooting that left one dead, one wounded.
By KIMBERLY EDDS and JON CASSIDY
The Orange County Register
Comments 42 | Recommend 7

An off-duty Costa Mesa police officer was jumped from behind and beaten by a crowd of men outside a Mexican restaurant in Old Town Temecula before pulling his gun and opening fire Saturday, the Riverside County Sheriff's Department said Tuesday.

The officer killed one of his attackers and injured another. The beating left the officer with at least six staples in the back of his head.

The officer, whose name has not been released, had been eating with a group of family and friends at the Bank of Mexican Food restaurant in the heart of Old Town Temecula on Saturday evening, when he felt ill and stepped outside for some fresh air, said Riverside County sheriff's spokesman Jerry Franchville.

The officer was sitting outside the restaurant about 7:15 p.m. when he was suddenly hit from behind with a heavy object, possibly a chair, Franchville said. The blow knocked the officer to the ground, temporarily dazing him.

Bleeding from the head and blood running into his eyes, the officer realized he was being attacked by four or five men, Franchville said. The officer identified himself as a police officer and begged for the men to stop beating him.

Several witnesses not connected to the officer or his attackers heard the officer identify himself as a police officer, and some even saw him flash his badge, Franchville said.

Despite the officer's cries for the attack to stop, the beating continued, Franchville said. The officer pulled out his gun and fired five times, hitting Shaun Adam Vilan twice in the chest and arm, and 22-year-old Taylor Willis twice in the thigh.

Vilan, who was on parole for assault with a deadly weapon, later died at a local hospital. Willis remained hospitalized Tuesday evening.

The attack was unprovoked, Franchville said.

Vilan and Willis had spent the day at Temecula Rod Run, an annual three-day custom hot-rod and car show that draws tens of thousands. Vilan's 7-year-old son, who went to the car show with his father, witnessed the attack on the officer and the shooting of his father. The officer did not attend the event.

It is unclear whether the men involved in the melee were intoxicated.

Authorities have not released the identity of the officer, citing protection under the Peace Officer's Bill of Rights. Police officers are allowed, under California law, to carry guns while off-duty.

Investigators from the Riverside County Sheriff's Department are investigating the shooting. The results of their investigation will be handed over to Riverside County prosecutors to determine whether the officer, a 10-year veteran of the Costa Mesa Police Department, should face criminal charges in the shooting.

The officer, who is recovering at home from severe head wounds, is on paid administrative leave, said Sgt. Bryan Glass of the Costa Mesa Police Department.

Vilan, who was on parole after spending six years in state prison for two assaults, had a lengthy history of ganging up on people and attacking them, according to court records. His convictions included two unprovoked assaults in 1996 and 1998, which involve Vilan smashing two people in the face with beer bottles.

In a 1996 attack, Vilan smashed a man in the face with a beer bottle, and continued to hold the broken bottle over his victim's face until the man's brother hit Vilan over the head with a wrench.

In the 1998 incident, Vilan, who was on bail at the time, approached a guest at a birthday party and sniffed him, saying, "You smell like white trash." The two men squared off, but before any punches could be thrown, Vilan smashed a beer bottle in the face of the man who stepped between them, court records show.

An October 2001 opinion by Court of Appeal, 4th Appellate District, also show a series of allged assaults for which Vilan was never charged, including a birthday party in August 1996 when Vilan and a friend were said to have brutally beat a guest who tried to stop them from ransacking the bedroom of the host's father, punching him and stomping on his head with steel-toed boots.

A month later, Vilan and two other men were accused of jumping the brother of one of Vilan's previous victims, punching him, knocking him to the ground and kicking him, court records show.

In November 1997, according to court accounts, Vilan and two other men attacked a man eating in his car with his girlfriend outside a fast-food restaurant, punching and kicking him.

Two months later, Vilan punched a man in the face three times just for looking at him, according to court records.

"None of the victims did any provoking Vilan and his cohorts did all the provoking. All the victims were outnumbered. All the encounters featured 'low blows,' i.e., unfair fighting by Vilan and his cohorts," wrote Manuel A. Ramirez, presiding justice of the California Court of Appeal, 4rth Appellate District, in the October 2001 opinion rejecting Vilan's appeal that evidence admitted in his two trials was improperly admitted.

Vilan worked as a day trader after being released from prison 2.5 years ago.

Family and friends held a candlelight vigil in Old Town Temecula on Tuesday night to remember Vilan.

Contact the writer: 714-796-7829 or kedds@ocregister.com

cassandrasdaddy
March 12, 2008, 12:50 PM
a real loss to society and his family.
reminds me of what the head of the military tribunal in el salavador said after sending a guy to the wall for dui

"i feel sorry for his wife and kids but they are better off without him"

classic example of the "he was a good boy " syndrome from his family and friends.

buzz_knox
March 12, 2008, 12:53 PM
i knew a guy in high school that attacked a cop and didn't stop even after the guy identified himself.... son of a gun he got shot too its a conspiracy i tell you! and they are all powerful cause randy lived and when he sobered up and got outa the hospital apologized to the cop.they must rubber hosed him to get him to do that. damndest thing though they let him slide on the assault on the officer charge.figured he's paid the price already. they were correct he became a model citizen

This kind of rhetoric doesn't help from the other side, so why perpetuate it from your side?

MakAttak
March 12, 2008, 01:21 PM
Vilan, who was on parole after spending six years in state prison for two assaults, had a lengthy history of ganging up on people and attacking them, according to court records. His convictions included two unprovoked assaults in 1996 and 1998, which involve Vilan smashing two people in the face with beer bottles.

In a 1996 attack, Vilan smashed a man in the face with a beer bottle, and continued to hold the broken bottle over his victim's face until the man's brother hit Vilan over the head with a wrench.

In the 1998 incident, Vilan, who was on bail at the time, approached a guest at a birthday party and sniffed him, saying, "You smell like white trash." The two men squared off, but before any punches could be thrown, Vilan smashed a beer bottle in the face of the man who stepped between them, court records show.

An October 2001 opinion by Court of Appeal, 4th Appellate District, also show a series of allged assaults for which Vilan was never charged, including a birthday party in August 1996 when Vilan and a friend were said to have brutally beat a guest who tried to stop them from ransacking the bedroom of the host's father, punching him and stomping on his head with steel-toed boots.

A month later, Vilan and two other men were accused of jumping the brother of one of Vilan's previous victims, punching him, knocking him to the ground and kicking him, court records show.

In November 1997, according to court accounts, Vilan and two other men attacked a man eating in his car with his girlfriend outside a fast-food restaurant, punching and kicking him.

Two months later, Vilan punched a man in the face three times just for looking at him, according to court records.

"None of the victims did any provoking – Vilan and his cohorts did all the provoking. All the victims were outnumbered. All the encounters featured 'low blows,' i.e., unfair fighting by Vilan and his cohorts," wrote Manuel A. Ramirez, presiding justice of the California Court of Appeal, 4rth Appellate District, in the October 2001 opinion rejecting Vilan's appeal that evidence admitted in his two trials was improperly admitted.

What are the important facts from all of this?

Criminals don't need guns.

Criminals will attack in groups.

Criminals will attack people for getting in their way.

Criminals use whatever weapon they can get their hands on.

Criminals can only be stopped through use of force (sometimes even the threat is not enough).

And, apparantly from this story: A gun can equalize a fight against multiple opponents.

Also, well done officer: 5 shots, 4 hit his attackers.

80% hit rate? FAR above the average AND this was done while bloody on the ground (if the witnesses are correct).

wheelgunslinger
March 12, 2008, 01:22 PM
Seems like the last article sweeps away the initial act that started the ball rolling. The officer allegedly slapped a female companion or wife on the backside.

Before that, everyone in that restaurant, including the apparently rabid and psychotic Mr. Vilan, were minding their own business and having a good time.

Just because someone has done time in prison doesn't make them a bad apple. And, just because someone is wearing a badge doesn't make them a good apple.

Don't start none, and there won't be none.

Biker
March 12, 2008, 01:24 PM
Vilan just needed shooting. End of story. I've known men like him and most are dead or in the joint.

That's fine with me.

Biker

buzz_knox
March 12, 2008, 01:40 PM
Just because someone has done time in prison doesn't make them a bad apple. And, just because someone is wearing a badge doesn't make them a good apple.

Assuming Vilan's record and prior deeds are accurately reported, I doubt that he was anything other than a bad apple.

As for the officer's alleged action, you cannot engage in deadly force against someone for that kind of conduct, and having a couple people pile on quickly becomes deadly force. A person may commit a truly stupid act, but that person is entitled to self-defense if your response is unreasonable.

wheelgunslinger
March 12, 2008, 01:57 PM
I understand what constitutes deadly force, and I understand the idea of sudden escalation of force.

We can wade all day in the murky whaters of "if, then," legally speaking.

Whether Vilan needed killing or not, I couldn't say. I've known people who needed killing too. Same story. They're either in the ground or behind bars. All I have to go on here are the details in the paper.

But, if you carry, and you don't want to shoot someone unless you have to, there's a good set of lessons to be learned here:

Keep your hands to yourself and mind your manners, or you could wind up with some mean sonofabuck stomping your head off with 4 of his dinner guests unless you have a firearm to scrape them off of you. Even then, you may not get lucky like this guy and come away with a couple of dead guys that everyone is ready to hate, and a few bruises and cuts.
If you can't hold your liquor, and you're a cad, don't drink in public because you may mess with the wrong guy(s).

Officers'Wife
March 12, 2008, 02:02 PM
Two drunks get in a fight...

And this is news because?

cassandrasdaddy
March 12, 2008, 02:44 PM
Vilan just needed shooting. End of story. I've known men like him and most are dead or in the joint.

That's fine with me.

Biker
the unfair part is its often some nice guy minding his own buisness that has to do the dirty deed and his life changes forever.

and whats with all this 4 on 1 nonsense anymore? that was unacceptable when i was coming up. heck i'm a dainty lil thing and never hada get a group to hunt someone. course i did get bmy head handed to me once or twice maybe 3 times but thats the price of the ride. that 4 on 1 stuff will get you shot

ptmmatssc
March 12, 2008, 03:15 PM
Two drunks get in a fight

That's funny , I didn't read anything about TWO drunks fighting , but I did read about someone eating with family/friends getting attacked .

The officer, whose name has not been released, had been eating with a group of family and friends at the Bank of Mexican Food restaurant

MarcusWendt
March 12, 2008, 03:51 PM
This entire thread is great, but lacking for this board.

From the beginning we had the usual suspects, with very few details, willing to hang this officer from the rafters. Then we hear what actually happened from reputable, and uninvolved witnesses and now everything is all crimson and clover. How about each and every one of you who said this officer screwed up, without any facts in hand, publicly apologize in this tread?

What saddens me most in this thread is that we don't know what type of weapon this officer was carrying, or in what caliber.

As for the "victim" and his group of loser family and friends....

BAAWWWWHAAAHHAAAHHAAAA. Too bad the officer didn't plant more of you morons. Typical lowlifes. "Oh, they treated us badly". "The officer just gunned my poor mijo down without provocation".

NASCAR_MAN
March 12, 2008, 04:01 PM
I wonder if the Shaun Vilan shot by the policeman at a Temecula Resteraunt is the same Shaun Vilan who launches felony attacks (with beer bottles) on other Temecula Residents.

http://www.dui1.com/DuiCaseLawDetail16900/Page1.htm

MarcusWendt
March 12, 2008, 04:03 PM
I'm betting he is.

Vilan's female co-defendant poured a beer over the victim's mother when she came outside and hit the victim over the head with a can of beer, which exploded on contact

I'm betting she's the one that got patted on the ass.

NASCAR_MAN
March 12, 2008, 04:13 PM
How about each and every one of you who said this officer screwed up, without any facts in hand, publicly apologize in this tread?

=====================================

I agree 100%.

jlpskydive
March 12, 2008, 04:15 PM
As reported above he is one in the same. Good for the officer for defending himself. Good riddance of the scum bag that jumped him. My .02 YMMV

TAB
March 12, 2008, 04:19 PM
I still don't have a clue what happend, so I won't pass judgement...

Lots of Qs, no As.


I will say this, if the officer envoled in this shooting turns out to have been drinking, I hope he is charged with a crime. Since we all know any CCW holder would be.

buzz_knox
March 12, 2008, 04:21 PM
I will say this, if the officer envoled in this shooting turns out to have been drinking, I hope he is charged with a crime. Since we all know any CCW holder would be.

What's CA law on the subject? Is drinking while carrying prohibited? If not, why would a permit holder be charged?

What are the particular regs of the agency that the officer works for? Is drinking while carrying prohibited for him, regardless of whether non-LEOs can or cannot do it? If not, why would he get jammed up?

MarcusWendt
March 12, 2008, 04:21 PM
That is literally a BIG "if"

I hope the officer gets an award, the newest Crown Vic delivered to CMPD, and a promotion.

MarcusWendt
March 12, 2008, 04:23 PM
If not, why would he get jammed up?

Because some people just hate it that the police have a little more perceived power than they do.

In reality, officers are under the public microscope and get beefed and a note in their file over all kinds of stupid crap that most civilians wouldn't even be given a dirty look for.

buzz_knox
March 12, 2008, 04:24 PM
I hope the officer gets an award, the newest Crown Vic delivered to CMPD, and a promotion.

If the allegation is true that he smacked the woman on the rear (which in various jurisdictions constitutes sexual assault or sexual battery), would you feel the same way?

It's one thing to be glad that someone (regardless of profession) was able to defend themselves and put some chlorine in the gene pool. It's quite another to reward stupid behavior just because things worked out as you liked.

Larryect
March 12, 2008, 04:28 PM
If he was drinking, AND it was a good shoot. I doubt that California law will hold it against him. California law is funny that way.... even for non-leo...

FWIW, I think the law is you can't be under the influence and I think that is defined by the legal level of driving a car. Not sure because I don't drink, so I haven't paid real close attention to that. But, I could probably look it up.

TAB
March 12, 2008, 04:29 PM
I hope the officer gets an award, the newest Crown Vic delivered to CMPD, and a promotion.

wait so killing some one, even if its justified off duty if grounds for promotion?

***

Drinking while carrying in CA is illegal, infact the act of sitting at a bar( even if its attacthed to a resterant) is illegal. Both of these apply to off duty cops as well.

buzz_knox
March 12, 2008, 04:32 PM
In reality, officers are under the public microscope and get beefed and a note in their file over all kinds of stupid crap that most civilians wouldn't even be given a dirty look for.

Some do, some don't. Whether an officer is under the microscope depends on the type of department, the type of community the department is located in, and the history of interaction between the two. The instances where an officer does something wrong and nothing happens to them is where a lot of the mistrust grows from.

MarcusWendt
March 12, 2008, 04:37 PM
would you feel the same way?

If it happened as they say it did, it was mistaken identity, and he apologized, yes, I'd still feel the same way. I've made that mistake once myself and grabbed my sister in laws rear. It happens.... unless you never have patted, smacked, or grabbed your wife's butt that is.

Did you read this link: http://www.dui1.com/DuiCaseLawDetail16900/Page1.htm

The "vicitm" was a professional Ahole who attacked people with beer bottles among other things. He and his little thug crew make a habit of starting trouble. They rob and beat people for fun. They go out looking for trouble and they found it.

buzz_knox
March 12, 2008, 04:41 PM
If it happened as they say it did, it was mistaken identity, and he apologized, yes, I'd still feel the same way. I've made that mistake once myself and grabbed my sister in laws rear. It happens.... unless you never have patted, smacked, or grabbed your wife's butt that is.


I've got better target identification skills than grabbing someone I couldn't absolutely verify was my wife, whom I would still refrain from fondling in public. Then again, apologizing over a mistake isn't a defense to a tort or criminal complaint over such conduct, so I make it a rule not to fondle people.

MarcusWendt
March 12, 2008, 04:42 PM
wait so killing some one, even if its justified off duty if grounds for promotion?

No, but effectively employing deadly force while under attack form felons is. He was being beaten and was dazed and he still got four hits out of five, one a fatal chest shot. He at least deserves a shooting medal.

Drinking while carrying in CA is illegal, infact the act of sitting at a bar( even if its attacthed to a resterant) is illegal. Both of these apply to off duty cops as well.

Well, since the officer was in a restaurant and just stepped out to get some air and witnesses say he WASN'T drinking, I guess we don't have a problem.

BattleChimp Potemkin
March 12, 2008, 04:44 PM
Nascarman,

You have my total and unappended apologies. From details given, I had been operating on badly timed information. To all, my apologies on this matter and former posts. I did not know of this repeat offender and his history. Given a history like that, wouldnt they just keep someone locked up? He seems to be rather raunchy, with all the past records stacked against him. Im not a fan of "he deserved dyin' " but maybe the world would be better off without some folks (myself included :) ).

MarcusWendt
March 12, 2008, 04:47 PM
so I make it a rule not to fondle people.

Good for you. I make it a rule not to throw chairs and then attack people four to one. Maybe we should both get awards as well.

TAB
March 12, 2008, 04:49 PM
No, but effectively employing deadly force while under attack form felons is. He was being beaten and was dazed and he still got four hits out of five, one a fatal chest shot. He at least deserves a shooting medal.




How do you know thats what happend? I sure as hell don't. As I said in my post, "lots of Qs, no As"

the Resterant manger said he was not drinking... oh it must be ture then... he would not lie to cover his resterants liquor licenses, no that would never happen... I also doubt that he watched him the entire time he was eating...

cassandrasdaddy
March 12, 2008, 04:50 PM
they haven't given up yet? a new group of suspects still trying to change reallity? after the first group slunk off quietly

buzz_knox
March 12, 2008, 04:52 PM
Good for you. I make it a rule not to throw chairs and then attack people four to one. Maybe we should both get awards as well.

Absolutely. We are both in a position to say "we didn't do anything that could have instigated this." That's what intelligent people do, particularly when carrying firearms.

I have no desire to do something that I think is innocuous but which an idiosyncratic person finds to be provocative.

MarcusWendt
March 12, 2008, 04:56 PM
Quote:
No, but effectively employing deadly force while under attack form felons is. He was being beaten and was dazed and he still got four hits out of five, one a fatal chest shot. He at least deserves a shooting medal.

How do you know thats what happend? I sure as hell don't. As I said in my post, "lots of Qs, no As"

Which point are you unclear on?

MarcusWendt
March 12, 2008, 04:58 PM
they haven't given up yet? a new group of suspects still trying to change reallity? after the first group slunk off quietly

Well, at least BattleChimp Potemkin had the sack to come in and apologize and admit his error.

TAB
March 12, 2008, 04:59 PM
[Which point are you unclear on?

the part about you saying he should be rewarded for taking a life... please explain how taking a life, even if your in the right doing so, deserves a metal.

MarcusWendt
March 12, 2008, 05:08 PM
the part about you saying he should be rewarded for taking a life... please explain how taking a life, even if your in the right doing so, deserves a metal.

Where to start???? Hmmmm, O.K., if under attack, you repel the attackers against overwhelming odds and in the process rid the world of an evil aggressor, you deserve an award, and or a promotion. I don't think he deserves a "metal". A concert in his honor by Metallica maybe, but not a "metal". I do think his attacker deserved lead, which is what he got.

Have you ever heard of the Congressional "Metal" Of Honor? Most of the recipients of that "metal" were repelling attacks and were often taking lives.

So you do not dispute the facts that I wrote and you quoted, correct?

sacp81170a
March 12, 2008, 05:09 PM
Given a history like that, wouldnt they just keep someone locked up?

Unfortunately, that's not how the criminal justice system operates in this society. If you saw how much some people had to do to even get sent to prison for a couple of years, you and most other rational people would be going "***"? From the sound of it, this guy had about an average rap sheet. I've seen people with lots worse walking around foot loose and fancy free and I'm not even in a big metropolitan area. Part of this is due to sentencing formulas and guidelines and part is due to prison overcrowding.

There's a good reason most felons say they are far more afraid of armed citizens than uniformed police. They know what to expect from us and the CJ system. They're far more likely to get shot and killed by armed citizens. That's why I advocate CCW and encourage everyone who can carry a firearm legally to do so. :cool:

TAB
March 12, 2008, 05:23 PM
Where to start???? Hmmmm, O.K., if under attack, you repel the attackers against overwhelming odds and in the process rid the world of an evil aggressor, you deserve an award, and or a promotion. I don't think he deserves a "metal". A concert in his honor by Metallica maybe, but not a "metal". I do think his attacker deserved lead, which is what he got.

really, must be nice to have a crystal ball to see exactly what happend that night...

as far as the CMOH, I'll leave you with a famous qoute.
Do you know who a hero is? Nine times out of ten, a hero is someone who is tired enough, cold enough, and hungry enough not to give a damn.

MarcusWendt
March 12, 2008, 05:37 PM
really, must be nice to have a crystal ball

Yes a Crystal ball would be spectacular, but instead all I have are the officer's statement, the owners statement, and the statement of other independent wits.

Oh but wait, we have scumbag's buddies and his mommy telling us how mean the police were after this officer just lost it and started shooting.

Let me know what the Easter Bunny brings you this year TAB.

TAB
March 12, 2008, 05:39 PM
yes and wittnesses always see everything and have photo graphic memorys...

as I said, I won't pass jugdment on the officer until I have all the facts, too many Qs no real As.


I still want too know why you think killing some one is worthy of a reward.

Mad Chemist
March 12, 2008, 05:50 PM
How about each and every one of you who said this officer screwed up, without any facts in hand, publicly apologize in this tread?

I don't believe that many will. That would take some stones. It will be a lot easier on their egos to use every rhetorical trick in the book to "prove" that that they were actually right.

This "condemnation through speculation" has become increasingly common around here. It's one of the reasons I don't come around much anymore. I prefer a bit of empirical analysis BEFORE I reach a conclusion. It helps me to avoid making an ass of myself.

buzz_knox
March 12, 2008, 05:54 PM
I still want too know why you think killing some one is worthy of a reward.

It depends on the person and the reason. We have historically offered rewards for the "heads" of certain figures because that's one way of getting them. I met one Soviet general who had a bounty on him because he was vice-commander of Soviet forces in Afghanistan.

As for the Medal of Honor comments, that medal tends to be awarded for the valor displayed by the one being honored, not simply because of the number of kills. That's why you'll see awards to those who saved lives, rather than simply taking them. And bringing THE Medal into this situation isn't appropriate.

Eyewitnesses individually are lousy, but you can piece together the stories to see what really happened. Here, that isn't necessary. The only relevant facts are the cop grabbed the wrong person and the decedent's group decided to carry out a mass assault. The former was unfortunate but even IF the cop had grabbed her, and then clearly lied when he said it was an accident (and please, don't tell me you haven't seen guys cop [no pun intended] feels like that, even with their girlfriends present), it wouldn't matter. Under the facts as presented, the cop was the victim of an attack wholly out of proportion to the pereceived wrong. That essentially perfects his claim of self-defense.

MarcusWendt
March 12, 2008, 05:59 PM
O.K., I'll try again.

IF and only IF you or anyone else is in a situation where people are attacking you or other innocent people, and under extreme pressure or while being assaulted, you have the ability and clarity of mind to not only identify yourself as a peace officer or as armed to give your attackers the chance to retreat, and then, only after they continue the attack, you draw your weapon and fire a kill shot on one or more attackers and stop shooting once the threat has been neutralized. If your hit rate is as high as this officers, which by the way is well above the average for police shootings, and you mange to do all this AFTER being ambushed by multiple assailants, are dazed, injured and no innocent bystanders get hit... I say you deserve an award.

An award for great performance under pressure. An award for combat marksmanship. An award for courage while under attack and out numbered. You choose.

The shooting occurred well after and separate from the ass smacking incident. There was NO, none, NADA justification for the attack on the officer.

The assailant happened to die due to the fine marksmanship of the officer and in keeping with his training. SHOOT TO KILL is what is taught. When the situation escalated to the level that deadly force is warranted, it's shoot to kill, not to wound, scare. wing, or make the assailant make water in is pants.

The assailant was a known scumbag and a felon. He had CLEARLY not been rehabilitated. He was back to his same old ways. He was a coward and a bully who used violent force causing great bodily injury to vent his anger.

I'm glad he's dead. He was unworthy of life as he could not behave in a civilized manner and he brutally attacked innocent people. Only by the grace of god did all his victims survive.

Now, allow me to ask you a few questions. What country are you from, and did you read about Vilan's prior offenses?

Since you are so fond of quotes I'll leave YOU with this: Vilan is dead, and that is a tragedy. But he is dead because he had no code. He is dead because he had no honor, and God was watching.

Mad Chemist
March 12, 2008, 06:09 PM
Battle Chimp Potempkin,
Cheers!
My hat's off to you. Don't be too hard on yourself. It's nice to read that someone has enough respect and self-respect to admit he was wrong.
Thank You,
MC

To the rest of ya......shameful.:barf:

buzz_knox
March 12, 2008, 09:45 PM
TAB

MarcusWendt really does have the right of it in terms of the analysis of the incident. There isn't a plausible way in which the cop was not justified based on what we know and what we can reasonably surmise.

Larryect
March 12, 2008, 10:23 PM
MarcusWendt

+1

frankintank
March 12, 2008, 11:10 PM
I'll issue a Clintonian non-apology apology, subject to an upgrade as facts yet to be determined shall warrant.

Yeah, I prematurely trashed the cop before hearing about the history of the dirtbag that got shot. He won't be missed by me. I didn't give the cop the benefit of the doubt since in my experience, few in that line of work ever extend it. Ya get whatcha give.

Even if the cop was in the right as it appears he may have been, it sticks in my craw as an 18 year ccw holder, that I would never have gotten the treatment that the cop did in the same circumstance. At a minimum, I'd've gone to jail while things got sorted out. I notice that his cop buddies doing the investigation are willing to comment on all the exculpatory testimony, but are silent about whether or not the cop got an alcohol test. This is not a difficult question. Perhaps they are in the process of "losing" the inconvenient results. Seems to me that testing should be mandatory after any shooting by any person. You can bet they will publicize the dead guy's results which are sure to show that he was probably trashed at the time he picked his last fight.

If it turns out the cop was sober, my sincere apology for rushing to judgement. If not - you knew the rules.

If any good comes of this, perhaps it will be to help further establish that mutliple, mean assailants, even unarmed, constitute a shoot-worthy threat to ANYONE, police & civilian alike.

cassandrasdaddy
March 12, 2008, 11:17 PM
where you loated frankintank?
we had a similar case here in va. two latino guys having meal late at waffle house 5 others guys from different country come in and start a fight . two guys try to descalate and leave. get followed outside and a beating starts 5 on 2 one guy gets off ground gets to his car 3 guys break off kicking his friend on the ground and charge him . he puts a few shots in em killed one for sure wounded another. . first two guys haul outa there scared. return in less than an hour face cops story is backed up by waffle house employees. they get to go home not sure if cops held the weaon for investigation but its likely. alsio likely they got it back when investigation complete. they never even released the shooters name in the papers

frankintank
March 12, 2008, 11:55 PM
Had CCW in California around 91-93. Been in Reno, Nevada ever since. I think I'm still mad at Cali for running me out with gun laws & other stupidity. AND ... the cops there were sure no friends of gun people. A few exceptions, sure. But in general, they were not our allies. In Cali, I knew a respected oncologist who spent more than $30,000 in legal fees to stave off an overzealous bay area prosecutor (persecutor?) because he displayed a firearm to a driver who had run him off the road and was advancing on him. Nobody was hurt, and the malice of the attacker wasn't even seriously questioned. But, they wanted to make an example of him for having the audacity to defend himself instead of waiting for the police. Reno seems to be more in the Virginia camp, but this may be changing with the huge influx of Californicators. I was the last good one to arrive here.

RiflemanTripleEight
March 13, 2008, 01:13 AM
Frank,
To be honest I don't think this website is for you. Check the name of the site again.

TAB
March 13, 2008, 01:29 AM
TAB

MarcusWendt really does have the right of it in terms of the analysis of the incident. There isn't a plausible way in which the cop was not justified based on what we know and what we can reasonably surmise.

Thats not the point I was trying to make... it was that he feels the act of killing some one, even if justifed deserves some type of commendation. I disagree with that completly. Infact it makes me ill. From the info that was given I think his actions had a part to play in why the attack happend, but thats beside the point.

Statements like what was made is ammo for the other side and it shines a bad light on the firearms community as a whole.

Aguila Blanca
March 13, 2008, 02:00 AM
Amazing.

Absolutely amazing.

I am not exactly the world's leading cheerleader for the thin blue line, but from the very first article it appeared that all independent (as in "unbiased") witnesses said the officer was assaulted in a sneak attack, while the only witnesses who claimed the officer started the fracas were associates of the two guys who got shot. Yet, innumerable supposed RKBA advocates leaped unerringly to the falacious conclusion that the cop was at fault.

As each successive news story divulged yet more information supporting the view that the cop was sucker punched and had not been drinking, inexplicably most of the cop bashers continued to maintain that the officer was in the wrong, and that in the face of four- or five-to-one odds, after having had a chair smashed over his head, he had no right to defend himself.

Things really began to clear up with the article that contained this nugget:
Vilan, who was on parole after spending six years in state prison for two assaults, had a lengthy history of ganging up on people and attacking them, according to court records. His convictions included two unprovoked assaults in 1996 and 1998, which involve Vilan smashing two people in the face with beer bottles.

In a 1996 attack, Vilan smashed a man in the face with a beer bottle, and continued to hold the broken bottle over his victim's face until the man's brother hit Vilan over the head with a wrench.

In the 1998 incident, Vilan, who was on bail at the time, approached a guest at a birthday party and sniffed him, saying, "You smell like white trash." The two men squared off, but before any punches could be thrown, Vilan smashed a beer bottle in the face of the man who stepped between them, court records show.

An October 2001 opinion by Court of Appeal, 4th Appellate District, also show a series of allged assaults for which Vilan was never charged, including a birthday party in August 1996 when Vilan and a friend were said to have brutally beat a guest who tried to stop them from ransacking the bedroom of the host's father, punching him and stomping on his head with steel-toed boots.

A month later, Vilan and two other men were accused of jumping the brother of one of Vilan's previous victims, punching him, knocking him to the ground and kicking him, court records show.

In November 1997, according to court accounts, Vilan and two other men attacked a man eating in his car with his girlfriend outside a fast-food restaurant, punching and kicking him.

Two months later, Vilan punched a man in the face three times just for looking at him, according to court records.

"None of the victims did any provoking Vilan and his cohorts did all the provoking. All the victims were outnumbered. All the encounters featured 'low blows,' i.e., unfair fighting by Vilan and his cohorts," wrote Manuel A. Ramirez, presiding justice of the California Court of Appeal, 4rth Appellate District, in the October 2001 opinion rejecting Vilan's appeal that evidence admitted in his two trials was improperly admitted.
And, in the face of all that, it seems there is still a vocal contingent that is unwilling to acknowledge that (a) Vilan and pals almost certainly initiated a group assault on the officer, and (b) Vilan was a guy who really REALLY needed to be shot.

I don't get it. I sincerely hope none of you live in my state, because I'd hate to have attitudes like yours on the jury if I ever have to use a firearm to defend myself. Y'all ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

wideym
March 13, 2008, 02:30 AM
I for one am outraged that the officer did not simply submit to the beating until on-duty officers arrived, 2-10 minutes later like everyone else. How dare he protect himself from violent attackers with a gun!

But seriously, it shows that the criminal element does not care who you are or who you work for. The suvivors should be charged with assaulting an officer (after he identified himself) and perhaps attempted murder or felony murder if their state has such a law.

buzz_knox
March 13, 2008, 08:44 AM
Thats not the point I was trying to make... it was that he feels the act of killing some one, even if justifed deserves some type of commendation. I disagree with that completly. Infact it makes me ill. From the info that was given I think his actions had a part to play in why the attack happend, but thats beside the point.

Statements like what was made is ammo for the other side and it shines a bad light on the firearms community as a whole.

The simple fact is that society often rewards killing when it's necessary. Some may kill in order to save other lives, some may kill to complete a mission, and some may kill in order to deny the enemy the use of that individual, or the equipment the individual is using (fighter pilots don't kill people, they take out vehicles which happen to contain people). Individuals who kill to save lives, to complete the mission, or to achieve some military advantage get recognized, awards, commendations, promotions, etc. The vast majority don't carry out the actions because they anticipate the reward (although some have been known to do just that); they do it because it's the right thing to do.

MarcusWendt's point is that the cop appears to have shown great courage and ability under extreme duress after someone else began a wholly irrational and unreasonable response to an action that (assuming for the sake of argument was malicious) did not warrant or justify an attack, let alone an attempted murder. Should he be "rewarded" for that? That's up to his community and department. But even if you think he shouldn't in this case, it's a purely emotional argument with no historical or societal basis to state that it's unwarranted and wrong in all cases.

Bailey Guns
March 13, 2008, 10:46 AM
MarcusWendt is right on. This type of anti-cop nonsense is exactly why I left the job after 15 years.

To all of you cop-bashers: there's a reason so many good cops (and, frankly, I considered myself among them) leave after nearly a full career. It's because the public, for the most part, sucks. I know I hesitated in pulling the trigger more than once in a confrontation because of exactly what's going on here. A few people will withhold judgment. But the majority will immediately find fault with the cop, simply because of an irrational bias, and the facts of the case be damned. I even had a district court judge tell a defendant charged with assaulting me with a screwdriver that "that officer should have shot you". He's right. I should have. But I didn't because of the chickens*** department I worked for tended to care first and foremost about some whiny, anti-cop type than it did it's officers. If I had shot that guy it would have been me being crucified on boards like this for saving my life.

Some day those of you who are wishing for a "kindler, gentler" police officer will get exactly what you want. Then, when you need a warrior type to save you or a family member you're going to be sorry when the best the local PD can do is send a college-educated secretary with a gun to take the report.

We're seeing that sort of anti-warrior mentality every where these days and it sickens me. "Let's send our young men and women off to war but, for God's sake, don't let them walk around a war zone with a loaded gun because someone might get hurt."

It is irrelevant if the officer slapped this woman on the bottom. It has no bearing on this case whatsoever. It's a moot point and can in no way possibly be admitted as a defense to multiple persons assaulting this officer apparently hours after the fact. It can't be made any clearer than that.

If the BAC results come back and show the officer had enough alcohol in his system to affect his judgment and he's punished for that, so be it.

If the BAC results come back and show the officer had no alcohol in his system or an insignificant amount, there won't be enough crow to feed the lot of you who desparately need a meal of it.

Some apologies to the officer by members here seemed sincere. Others...why even bother? Your bias and irrational hatred are shining through your "apology" despite your lame-a$$ed attempts at concealing it.

Shaun Vilan and his buddy NEEDED killing. I,for one, am glad there was a MAN willing to get up in the morning, put on his big-boy undies instead of lace panties and step up and do it for the rest of us. Shaun Vilan will terrorize no one again because of the skill and bravery of a police officer.

I'm just a little irritated that modern medical technology being what it is the other scumbag survived.

MarcusWendt
March 13, 2008, 10:50 AM
Seems to me that testing should be mandatory after any shooting by any person.

It is mandatory Frank, but labs here in SoCal are very backed up. It takes times.

MarcusWendt
March 13, 2008, 10:58 AM
it was that he feels the act of killing some one, even if justifed deserves some type of commendation.

Again I ask what country you are from? It's an honest question as you seem to have difficulty with the English language.

I NEVER said killing someone deserves an award. I pointed out some circumstances, including this one, where I think an award is justified. You are picking out one aspect of the entire event and hanging your entire argument on it. That is a bunch of mealy mouthed cow excrement and you know it.

Infact it makes me ill. From the info that was given I think his actions had a part to play in why the attack happend.

Just like rape victims deserve to be raped if they dress sexy? The one thing this officer did, BY MISTAKE!!! (No facts to prove otherwise) was over and done with. The officer had apologized. OVER. LATER he was attacked.

Statements like what was made is ammo for the other side and it shines a bad light on the firearms community as a whole.

After we get a translation of this statement maybe we can try and figure out why, to make your very weak argument, you insist on grossly distorting the truth?

MarcusWendt
March 13, 2008, 11:01 AM
Reno seems to be more in the Virginia camp, but this may be changing with the huge influx of Californicators. I was the last good one to arrive here.

I'm sure that's what the other folks there said before you showed up. Only two posts and already making friends huh Frank?

Your hypocrisy is ASTOUNDING!!!!

2nd 41
March 13, 2008, 11:06 AM
>>Just goes to show that Firearms and Alcohol do not mix.

I agree but, I've been plenty drunk and it's never occurred to me to start shooting people.




Correct...have a few and spend the evening chasing woman, dancing, watching the tube....something like that.

Biker
March 13, 2008, 11:09 AM
I swear, according to some, it seems that an individual loses the right to self defense if an adult beverage is consumed.

Biker

Bailey Guns
March 13, 2008, 11:12 AM
Alcohol and being stupid don't mix, either. Apparently, Shaun Vilan was a really slow learner. Well, he's now a graduate of the School of Hard Knocks with a Masters in Jacketed Hollowpoints. He has finally learned his lesson. Good riddance.

RiflemanTripleEight
March 13, 2008, 11:14 AM
Another example of the media recklessly reporting a story before having any facts, or even caring what the facts are. All you need is a catchy title since most peoplen't even read the articles.

"A fight broke out" As far as I can tell a person was sucker punched and attacked. Not a couple of mutual combatants duking it out.

Sad that we allow the media to force feed us trash with no reprecussions.

MarcusWendt
March 13, 2008, 11:27 AM
Bailey Guns

BRAVOOO!!!! BRAVO!!! ENCORE!!!!

Sadly Bailey we live in a world of hand wringers who just don't get it. They have neither the stomach, the sack, nor the wisdom to go out there and do the job of men. Instead, they compensate for their lack of courage by claiming to posses a higher understanding and purpose. They are lovers of small animals, children, and all things pretty and perfect. The "man" keeps everyone down in their world. If it weren't for jack booted thugs like you and I, gang members, drug dealers, and child molesters would just spontaneously combust.

I keep waiting for the government to tuck me in at night, rub my belly, and post a guard outside my door so I'll feel all safe and warm, but my season pass to Disneyland expired and I actually have to care for myself. I applaud the police for the thankless job they do. They go out every day with a uniform that tells every criminal and good citizens that there is someone there who gives a damn. I don't know any rich cops. I do know some permanently disabled cops, some dead cops, and some cops who still go out every day to protect people like TAB who are asleep at the wheel, and like Frank who dislikes them because he perceives a lack of power. They protect these guys and people like them without out concern about their personal issues. They do the job because it's good and right and a noble calling.

What's worse is that some of these cop bashers make things up and outright lie in a vain attempt to post an argument. I respect their right to have a different opinion, but when they start to lie, well, it just paints a very unfavorable picture of them.

This officer did the job of a man and he did it well. I applaud his action while under attack. I thank him for exterminating a foul, violent, pest. While some here think my support of him is offensive, I will not waver. I know the trauma this officer is going through. His every breath that day being analyzed, and scrutinized. He is worried about losing his job, his pension, and the likely lawsuit the VILE VERMIN's family will file. He'll have nightmares and night sweats. He'll question if he will still go to heaven when he passes. Sure there will be slaps on the back, congratulations, and dark humor, but at the end of the day, this officer will be left to deal with pain and suffering. His life will be upended for some time to come and the specter of all kinds of bad things will hang over him for many years.

buzz_knox
March 13, 2008, 11:36 AM
There is sufficient stupidity on both sides of the cop bashing argument that neither side would be well served not to paint with broad brushes.

The middle ground is that some cops are great, some cops are scum, and most are doing their job. That's true in most every other aspect of humanity, and is likely true in this one.

Bailey Guns
March 13, 2008, 11:44 AM
This officer did the job of a man and he did it well. I applaud his action while under attack. I thank him for exterminating a foul, violent, pest. While some here think my support of him is offensive, I will not waver. I know the trauma this officer is going through. His every breath that day being analyzed, and scrutinized. He is worried about losing his job, his pension, and the likely lawsuit the VILE VERMIN's family will file. He'll have nightmares and night sweats. He'll question if he will still go to heaven when he passes. Sure there will be slaps on the back, congratulations, and dark humor, but at the end of the day, this officer will be left to deal with pain and suffering. His life will be upended for some time to come and the specter of all kinds of bad things will hang over him for many years.

Give me the "Been There, Done That" t-shirt. I still deal with the "what ifs" had a situation I went through turned out differently.

If that officer were here I'd buy him a beer, propose a toast to him, his skill and his courage and I'd do it wearing my gun!

MakAttak
March 13, 2008, 11:46 AM
There is sufficient stupidity on both sides of the cop bashing argument that neither side would be well served not to paint with broad brushes.

The middle ground is that some cops are great, some cops are scum, and most are doing their job. That's true in most every other aspect of humanity, and is likely true in this one.

True, however, given the nature of the police profession, I would be willing to wager they have a higher percentage of individuals there because they are interested in exerting power.

Also, given the nature of the police profession, I would also assume they have a higher percentage of individuals who are there out of duty and honor.

As a result, you have a greater chance of finding one or the other extreme in your dealings with police. This is not to say that the vast majority are one or the other (I'd lead towards the latter though). However, there would be less police "just doing the job" than you would find in other professions.

Justin
March 13, 2008, 11:50 AM
This one's gone off the rails.

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