[Jedi_7.62]

I've become interested in Fal's, G3's, and Cetme's. However, they either seem too expensive or of questionable quality.

I was just wondering if anyone had any other ideas for a semi auto .308 "Battle rifle" ?

[DMK]

Best for what?

Lotsa good .308 rifles, all have their good points and all have their bad points. Some are rock solid reliable, some are easy for maintain, some are extremely accurate, some have load of cheap hicap mags, some are very versitile.

Don't forget to add the M1A , AR-10 and converted .308 Garand to the list. Those have to be good for something. :neener:

EDIT: Oh yea, don't forget they make AKs in .308 now. A Saiga is certainly cheaper than a DSA FAL.

[ACP230]

I like the M1A.

I've had one for a while and used to shoot High Power matches with it. My best scores were made with that rifle.

The sights and trigger are some of the best available.

[Mannlicher]

M1A, hands down........................ and hey, adult toys are expensive, thats a fact of life.

[biere]

I think there are some russian semi-autos in 308, maybe a galil or something. I could be wrong though as I never researched that direction.

I recomend a lot of research. I have found out I dislike the really long m1a rifles but love the shorter barreled versions.

Overall I usually recomend a fal from dsa but even their parts kit version is expensive. However, I have been very happy with my rifle from dsa and the mags are cheap.

Figure out exactly what you want the thing to do and then check options. Some versions are easier to scope, some share parts with more common rifles, and some are just weird and folks like them that way.

I checked out a cetme last year when they were really popular and while I felt it was decent it did not inspire me to pull my checkbook out. My fal was a no brainer when I checked it out and it was a lot more than a cetme.

[hillbilly]

For years, I lusted after a Springfield M-1A. I knew I wanted a .308 battle rifle.

However, after trying to save up for a Springfield for several years, I discovered FALs.

I went the route of buying a parts kit and an Imbel reciever and building the rifle.

The only thing a gunsmith did for me was to attach the barrel to the receiver and headsapce it.

I put every other piece on that rifle, and the kit was broken down all the way to the roll pins. Every spring, pin, magazine release, handguard, buttstock screw, everything on the rifle I put there, except for screwing the barrel into the receiver.

For the same price as a Springfield, I built a FAL, bought a ton of 20 round mags, and 500 rounds of ammo along with a British pattern SUIT scope, which is a 4X prismatic combat scope....not a precision scope, but a visual aid to assist combat style shooting out to 600 yards.

Battle rifles are not precision rifles. Battle rifles are designed to get hits on man-sized targets out to 600 or so yards.

I love my FAL.

And you can find 20 round mags for as little as $5 a piece!!!!!!

Try picing M-1A or M-14 mags. Hopefully, that will change once the AW Ban sunsets.

But my FAL will shoot, with military surplus ammo, about 2.5 inch groups off the bench at 100 yards if I do my part.

I have not tried any other ammo as I think a 2.5 or 3 MOA battle rifle is plenty good. If you can hit a gallon milk jug at 300 yards, that's 4 MOA shooting.

hillbilly

[benewton]

Picked up my M1A in '82: the graduation gifts for the BS were non existant, and I thought that I'd ensure that the MS wasn't treated the same way.

'course, being me, I got the NM version.

Now, I did my mil time with the M16A1, which was why I wanted the M1A, and I've now my very own edition of the poodle shooter. And the chinese version of the AK, plus a few other odds and ends kicking around...

But if I had to head out the door tomorrow, the M1A comes along, because I don't believe that there's a better all around rifle.

[jzimm9mm]

I'll put in another vote for the FAL. I just recently finished assembling one from a parts kit and I love it. I also have an AR-15 and SAR-1, and I think the FAL just took second place behind my AR. If bullets were cheaper it might have taken first place. Truly a joy to shoot. That being said, my FAL is the only .308 caliber rifle I've ever shot, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

Jer..

[sanchezero]

These aren't too pricey and I've heard pretty good things. Am definitely considering one of their carbines...

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/fal.htm

[duckfoot]

FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL FAL

[Kurt]

An M1A fits and feels the best to me. However I would not choose one for my main rifle. The problem is its cast receiver and subsequent stretching over time. It's a headspace thing, and it's vital.

Many dismiss this factor, but the drum beat of many credible sources over the course of the last 15 years have convinced me of some legitimacy there. I can't take a chance on something so important.

The only place where most everything comes together today is with the FAL rifles. I tend to believe these days of such high-quality metric guns being so available, along with their parts and mags surely won't last forever.

Since I don't know what the future holds, I want the rifle that I put in my hands today to be the best I can possibly find in terms of reliability and reputation. With a little care, I'll choose one that can also be passed down with confidence when I'm on the old drool cup.

Make mine a FAL.

[six 4 sure]

I’d suggest saving up and buying a DSA FAL, you can’t beat $5 mags. Yes the DSA is more expensive, but the quality is far superior to the Century Arms FAL’s. If I had it to do over that’s the way I’d go. I just happened to find a LNIB Pre-ban (sn 0010X) Polytech M14 and grabbed it instead. However, I’m not looking forward to buying $40 mags.

six

[igor]

Valmet Petra... :D 'nuff said.

[Jedi_7.62]

Thanks for the input.

I know FAL's have a great reputation and if my wallet was a bit thicker I would already have 1 or more.

M1 isn't really what I'm after here though I have thought about getting 1 of these also.

I've been looking towards CETME even though they have a spotted reputation they are within my means.

Someone mentioned AK's in .308. THIS intrigues me I have an SAR 1 and I love it!!! To me it has a perfect balance. Affordable, reliable, and pretty dang accurate for what it is. Yes it is ugly but she's got it where it counts.

Are there .308 AK's that take high cap. mags? I saw 1 once but it only took low cap. mags. where can I find more info on this one?

Thanks,

Other suggestion welcome,

[4v50 Gary]

If you had the money, Knight SR-25. 5R barrel says it all.

[Dave R]

Jedi, I believe there are two .308 AKs:

-VEPR imported by Robinson Arms. http://www.robarm.com/
-Saiga which is available through several resellers.

Any others, guys? Neither takes hi-caps. I believe either can be modified to take M-14 mags, but that runs around $150 for the conversion. At least, that's what I read on the Internet...

The Saiga was reviewed fairly recently in American Rifleman. Pretty positive, except for trigger pull. It uses an extension to get the length of pull right, so the trigger mechanism is a little complex.

Reviews I have seen on the VEPR are pretty uniformly positive.

And hey, my CETME will out-shoot your FAL!!

Just kidding. I have not shot any FAL's. And my CETME needed some work to get right, so it meets all the stereotypes. But it is easy to shoot 2MOA with.

[Minuteman]

You've ruled out what I would suggest, which is the M1A (in the scout configuration) and you've said you're on a budget, which rules out DSA FALs and JLD Enterprises' HK91 copies.

On another board I've seen many more people complain about their CETMEs than those who love them. In a nutshell, what I've gleaned from those threads is that good CETMEs do exist, but they're the exception rather than the rule.

So...

For a bit more than a CETME, you can get a Robinson Armament's VEPR II (http://www.robarm.com/). Then, if you later want to modify it to take 20-round magazines, you can check out Krebs Custom (http://www.krebscustom.com/). If the AWB sunsets, I'm sure Robinson Armament Co. will begin making 20-rounders for it.

Just FYI, JLD (http://www.jldenter.com/index.html) is to HK91s what DSA is to FALs. Their Web site is undergoing construction at the moment, but you may want to give them a look when they come back up.

By the way, an invaluable resource of comparison information on battle rifles and carbines can be had for 20FRNs in the form of "Boston's Gun Bible" (http://javelinpress.com/Gunbible.html) if you haven't already seen it.

Minuteman

[DMK]

Neither takes hi-caps. I believe either can be modified to take M-14 mags, but that runs around $150 for the conversion. The VEPR can be modified, but it's my understanding that the .308 Saiga cannot be modified to take 10+ round mags. However, the Saiga is a lot cheaper than the VEPR.

Jedi_7.62, you still haven't told us what you are looking for in a battle rifle. All the rifles mentioned here are good rifles (if you get a good example), but keep in mind that a FAL or Saiga is not going to be AR-10 accurate out of the box and the AR-10 may not be as rock solid reliable as a .308 Garand.

Mag prices may be a factor. AR-10 and M-14 mags are $$. FAL and CETME mags are dirt cheap. Garands don't even need mags, but you'll want to stock and load some Enbloc clips because it may be a hassle to load them at the range.

You also have to keep in mind ease of maintenance. FALS and AKs are super easy to strip and maintain. Personally, I find the Garand a bit of a pain to field strip and clean (you have to clean the bore from the muzzle. :( ), I believe the M1A is similar.

[Sven]

Battle rifles CAN be accurate rifles.

Mags are a one time purchase, and how many do you really need, folks? The other day I saw 5 M1A mags posted on BattleRifles.com for $30 each. What, you need 20 mags loaded and ready to go? Expecting an armed invasion anytime soon? ;) Consider bandoliers with stripper clips as an inexpensive way to keep ammo on hand, ready to re-charge those mags.

For those who are counting pennies, I suggest you do the following math:

Take the cost of your rifle, fitted as you'd like (prob. $750-2500). Now figure out how many rounds of .308 you will send downrange over the lifetime of the rifle (maybe 20 cases? more?).

Q: Which is the larger expense?
A: The ammo.

Which is why I suggest that you buy quality - it will only hurt once. That said, give the M1A a serious look.

[Ohen Cepel]

Don't forget the HK91 or the Springfield SAR-8 copy of it. Both are great weapons.
Springfield also made a copy of the FAL I think.

I have the SAR8 and love it. Also mags for the 91 series are now CHEAP ($5 or so).

I have been put off by the AR's in .308 and M1's due to the mag expense.

[Fire1]

When I asked myself this question two years age, I wound up with an AR-10. Yes, the mag costs are higher than some of the other options, but I didn't feel the need to buy a whole pile of them, and I hope to see some relief there after the death of the AWB. Sven has the right idae. I saved and waited for almost a year to get the rifle. When I got it I had to economize on the scope, and could barely afford to shoot it. Now that I have recovered from the initial cash outlay, I am working on the ammo supply. :cool:

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

MAS 49/56 .308 conversion.

Prices can be under $300. Mine was $350 for a prime specimen, and if I'd been quicker, I'd have gotten it for less.

Pros: Solid, accurate, military-grade rifles. Mine works great on ugly ammo. Nice balance, handy, powerful, easy to shoot with an efficeint muzzle break. Direct-impingement, no-moving-parts action very similar to the FAL. Easy to strip and maintain.

Cons: Beaten-with-an-ugly-stick appearance. Froginese origin. No hi-caps to speak of, 10-rounders is tops.

Far and away the cheapest battle rifle rifle going, with no iffy reputation. (Worst case is you might get a rough chamber, which some of the early conversions got at Century. Makes for extraction issues, but is easily corrected once you know what the problem is.) Someone is making a pistol-grip stock conversion that looks very "assualty", but I don't know who. It's easy to find out, though.

I would suggest taking a hard look at these. You can get 3-4 of 'em for the price of an M1A. Falfiles.com has a lot of info on 'em.

[Sven]

You can get 3-4 of 'em for the price of an M1A.

What, are you arming your local militia? ;) HRG: Could you bring this to our next shoot?

[j.wise]

The VEPR is a great rifle. In its stock form it delivers a great product at a reasonable cost. However, if you want to spice it up to be on par with the other rifles mentioned, you will have a few additional expenditures.

Rifle: $650
Krebs M1A mag conversion: $150
Mojo aperature/ghost-ring sight: $50
Redstar adjustable trigger: $100

It's still cheaper than a DSA or M1A...

Not seeing the need to equip an entire militia (maybe just a fire team), I am opting out of adding the FAL or G3 clones to my collection. I already have the VEPR in .308 and 7.62X39, two ARs, HK SL8, M1 Carbine and a M1A. I figure those will serve me in any "need" that may arise. However, if I was starting from scratch, I might check more into the FAL/G3.

Oh, and it's my opinion that a .308 autoloader doesn't NEED more than a 10 round capacity magazine. But it sure bugged the HECK out of me at first (tried all kinds of ways to make a FAL mag fit in the VEPR!)

[Nando Aqui]

Like them all and take turns shooting them: SA58, M1A, HK91.
The SA58 and the M1A are new production, the HK91 is over 15 years old, but in excellent condition.

Accuracy wise, the M1A and the SA58 are comparable and better, but the HK (at least my HK) is not far behind. Great for a 'battle rifle'.

The HK91 is the only one that I can take the scope off and put it back on and always comes right back on target. Arms claw mount - snaps on, easy off.

The HK91 has never malfunctioned regardless of ammo. It does mess up the empty cases pretty badly, and throws them 20+ feet to the right and forward.

The HK91 gets dirtier than the rest and it is trickier to learn to take apart; the bolt, that is. But once learned, it is a cinch. And it does not require any tools for disassembly; no wrenches for gas plugs, no screwdrivers for screws...

I would rather not have to choose, but if I had to grab one and run right now, I definitely would grab my HK91... and its scope. Perhaps after I get the SA58 scope problems solved...

My 2¢ -

Alex

[Keith]

Like Hillbilly, I built my own FAL and am very pleased. I think I have about $400 into it and it's as good as anything from DSA - and far more aesthetic since I stuck with the original walnut and park finish.

It's really very easy to build a FAL since they are designed to be "soldier-proof" and strip and assemble very easily.

You won't get anything like that for the amount of money you want to spend unless you build your own.

Keith

[Gewehr98]

But I still have my BM-59, and M14NM!

Might be a CETME in my near future, too. ;)

[Keith]

You hated your FAL?

Was it perchance a Century Arms FAL?

Keith

[RustyHammer]

Either a M1 (rebarreled) or an M1A.

[Gewehr98]

If the old saying holds true, about "the only interesting guns are accurate guns", then this one wouldn't make anybody bat an eye. Even with a new heavy barrel, cleaned-up trigger, and (hard-to-find) Hythe rear peep sight.

[TechBrute]

Ok, Keith...

You've got my interest, where does one go to get good deals on parts or a kit or whatever, and what is involved (skill level, tools, etc.)

[Blain]

I hate how everyone calls every single M14 civilian clone an "M1a" (which is a registered Springfield Trademark), while these same people feel free to call their FAL or AR15 clones "FALs" or "AR15s" instead of their actual clone names!

[JShirley]

Yeah. Everyone should remember every damn proprietary name from every maker of these pieces. :rolleyes:

PCR, anyone? L1a1? STG-58? RFA2-24SP? TL-15P? PCWA2Y 16SL? Get real.

[Futo Inu]

On a budget, the VEPR or the Saiga! Hard to go wrong there (cept for the 10-round only mags).

J-wise, why doesn't Krebs make an FAL mag conversion? Much cheaper mags - must be a technical reason....or a legal reason (not a US part if not an M1A mag)??

[zxc]

I will get an FAL or SAR8 when my M1A quits.
Been running it at the local action rifle games
here in sandy FL, cleaning at 1k intervals/as
long as the piston moves/ with Port. Im pleasantly
surprised since these newer versions are supposedly
fragile. 3k per year x 3yrs it has the beater look.
Save for mandatory 25 yd sightin been straight OOB, uses
home depot axle grease only.5 mags from coles.
Good luck with your choice.

[Futo Inu]

zxc - I like your CR Sam/Haiku style - to the point - lol.

[Atticus]

I'm partial to the FAL concept as well. I liked my M1A (it was a Springfield-as I'm sure most of the ones mentioned here are). I liked my AR15 style rifles (had a few).

I ended up selling the other two and keeping the FAL. The FAL's proven design is rugged, it uses a powerful round without substantial felt recoil, It's as accurate as I need it to be, it's scope mount friendly ( if that's your desire) and there is an abundance of inexpensive parts, hi cap mags, etc, which allows a person on a budget to keep them on hand for "someday".

Mine started out as a Belgian made, German G1 rifle. The Turks bought them years ago, and recently sold them on the surplus market. Some kits (everything but a functioning upper receiver) are in bad shape, but others are pretty good. You can still pick up a kit, a quality receiver AND get it professionally finished and assembled for $600-700. If you're a do-it-your-selfer, for a little less.

[Blain]

That's not what I'm saying, I am saying you should call semi auto M14's, M14s just like you call semi FALs and ARs, FALs and ARs...

[Keith]

Tech,

The best advice I can give you is to explore falfiles.com. It's an entire site devoted to building FAL's.
You can get kits from a number of places; tapco.com and dsarms.com are two well known and reliable sources.
For my money the best receiver on the market is the Coonan available from fac.com for about $200. Imbel receivers are also good and go for a few bucks less.
As far as tools go, you need a special thingy to install and remove the buttstock spring - available for about $10.

If you are installing your own barrel, you need access to a vice and barrel wrench and standard "Go - No Go" gauges. If you don't have this stuff (or have a friend with this stuff) you're probably better off letting a gunsmith do this part.

There are a number of legalities you need to be aware of - required US parts, etc. All of that is best explored over at falfiles to learn the cheapest and best legal alternatives.

Depending on how much you pay for your kit, you can still be up and running for $400, or a bit more... the prices on kits are starting to rise because nobody has imported any lately. I don't know if that situation will change or prices will continue to rise.

Keith

[TechBrute]

Awesome, Keith... Thanks.

I'll be posting pics of my FAL as soon as I can get it bought and built. :D

[aerod1]

M1A is for sure a good candidate.

Jim Hall

[JShirley]

Mags are a one time purchase, and how many do you really need, folks?

Well, one guy some folks think is an authority said one should spend at least as much on mags as on the weapon.

you need 20 mags loaded and ready to go?

Well, it's a start. I only have 35 FAL mags, but I'll get more. :)

John

[Jedi_7.62]

OK, I really want a FAL but it is out of my budget. I'm intrigued by the idea of building one. However I've never done anything like this.

What would I expect to pay to have a gunsmith put it together for me?

THANKS,

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

Well, one guy some folks think is an authority said one should spend at least as much on mags as on the weapon.

So if you spend $1800 on an HK91, you should buy 600 $3 mags?

Or buy a used Glock 19 for $300 and only 3 mags?:D

[Keith]

The only thing you need consider having a gunsmith do is wrench the barrel on and measure the headspace - a twenty minute job. I don't know what a smith would charge for that, but I'd shop around before committing.

You really can do the rest yourself.

Keith