Inexpensive .223 rifle?


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Owlnmole
March 11, 2008, 07:52 AM
I'd like to be able to take advantage of inexpensive milsurp .223/5.56mm ammo for plinking and keeping proficient. I also have a thought to a rifle for home defense or SHTF situations.

I prefer short, light carbine-style rifles--my favorite gun to shoot, ever, was my grandfather's M1 Carbine. Well, that and the Thompson M1A1 on special occasions, but that's another thread. With an eye on the ups and downs of gun legislation, and so as not to draw attention, I don't want anything that screams "assault rifle."

Among inexpensive options, I have found a couple of H&R Handi Rifle models--Survivor (http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/ShotgunsAndRifles/survivor.aspx)and Superlight Compact (http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Rifles/handiRifle.aspx)--that might fit the bill, as would some other single-shot rifles though with obvious disavantage for some situations. The Savage/Stevens 200 (http://www.savagearms.com/st_200short.htm)in .223 is also a good bet with four rounds, though longer than I'd like.

Does anyone have any other suggestions? Let's stick with new guns, the cheaper the better, for argument's sake.

Thanks!

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JWarren
March 11, 2008, 08:47 AM
I'd like to be able to take advantage of inexpensive milsurp .223/5.56mm ammo for plinking and keeping proficient. I also have a thought to a rifle for home defense or SHTF situations.


Did I miss something? inexpensive milsurp .223/5.56???

While it is not as expensive as .308, .223 isn't all that cheap these days. There are certainly cheaper calibers right now such as 7.62x39.

I prefer short, light carbine-style rifles--my favorite gun to shoot, ever, was my grandfather's M1 Carbine. Well, that and the Thompson M1A1 on special occasions, but that's another thread. With an eye on the ups and downs of gun legislation, and so as not to draw attention, I don't want anything that screams "assault rifle."

Then your choices are narrowing to something like a Ruger Mini-14 or Saiga .223 if you are interested in semi-auto with detachable magazines.

Among inexpensive options, I have found a couple of H&R Handi Rifle models--Survivor and Superlight Compact--that might fit the bill, as would some other single-shot rifles though with obvious disavantage for some situations. The Savage/Stevens 200 in .223 is also a good bet with four rounds, though longer than I'd like.

We may be thinking on different lines then. I'd prefer semi-auto detachable magazines, but that may not be your concern. I do know this however... I wouldn't want a single-shot if I was considering this rifle for Home Defense.

Does anyone have any other suggestions? Let's stick with new guns, the cheaper the better, for argument's sake.

Saiga 223 would be a good, cheap option.


Thanks!

NP.


-- John

benEzra
March 11, 2008, 09:08 AM
Saiga .223. Just over $200 and an excellent rifle, and if you choose to, you can convert it to an AK configuration later as long as you satisfy the parts count rule.

Onmilo
March 11, 2008, 09:44 AM
I third the Saiga .223
These aren't much more money than a Handi-Rifle and you get ten shots instead of one.
There is a receiver mounted scope plate that accepts a removable scope mounting platform and the iron sights are entirely adequate for shooting coyote size animals out to 200 meters.

I have a Saiga in 7.62X39 and another in .308 and they have served me quite well.
I have sold, and assisted in selling, several .223 Saigas through the shop I gunsmith for, none of the buyers are complaining.

As a bonus, the chambers on these rifles are a bit looser than commercial .223 Remington chambers and they can digest all kinds of .223/5.56 Nato cartridges including the steel case stuff without problem.

Neo-Luddite
March 11, 2008, 10:52 AM
5.56 costs a lot and may continue to for a long time. Consider if a SKS in 7.62 x 39 svt. could suit your needs as you described them. The Yugo varrient is a little heavier than it needs to be but still come in at less than $180 bucks. No, it's not 'new', but it eats ammo that is (now) just over 1/2 the price of 5.56 on average.

What you'd like, in terms of similar to the m-1 carbine, is a Ruger Mini--but the cost will start at 350.00 for a well-used example and go up from there to 550-650 new.

And that Saiga--again, good idea--MAYBE consider getting one in 7.62 x 39.....the gamble is, of course, that the war might end tomorrow and the market might FLOOD with that cheap 5.56 that we all want...

I would not bet on that. We're almost at the point where it makes sense to find the ammo first and then buy the rifle!

rangerruck
March 11, 2008, 10:59 AM
Saiga or STG for semi auto, then , the stevens for a boltie, nef for a single shot, would fill the bill.

rangerruck
March 11, 2008, 11:00 AM
heck, even a kel tec will do nicely.

doubleh
March 11, 2008, 11:15 AM
NEF warns not to use military ammo in the Handi-Rifle.

Leadhead
March 11, 2008, 11:21 AM
I don't have a picture with the regular buttstock on it but I picked this 7615 up used for $500.....nice little pump carbine that takes AR mags.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b358/Candown/7615adaptor5.jpg

Jguy101
March 11, 2008, 07:54 PM
Leadhead, I don't think it was a good idea to post that picture unless you've paid your NFA tax for that 7615...

Omaney
March 11, 2008, 09:01 PM
Leadhead, I don't think it was a good idea to post that picture unless you've paid your NFA tax for that 7615...

Forgive my ignorance. NFA tax for a pump action?

alemonkey
March 11, 2008, 09:11 PM
I've been debating the Saiga .223 vs. 7.62 for a while now...I think one or the other is going to be my next purchase. I'm leaning towards the .223 because I think it's capable of better accuracy. I reload so even if .223/5.56 gets too expensive I'm not too worried.

But where do you find a Saiga .223 for just over $200? The cheapest I've ever seen was Classic Arms for $259.

000Buck
March 11, 2008, 09:17 PM
Leadhead, I don't think it was a good idea to post that picture unless you've paid your NFA tax for that 7615...

I think you have it backwards. Leadheads gun is legal, no NFA tax needed. You can take the stock off a rifle without and NFA tax, its when you put a stock on a pistol that it requires an NFA tax as it is then a short barrelled rifle.

For a cheap .223 rifle, the Saiga is by far the cheapest of the quality semi-autos available. They are usually just under $300.

serrano
March 11, 2008, 10:25 PM
http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/images/big/su16CA_01.jpg

$400 or less used.

dracphelan
March 11, 2008, 10:26 PM
If you want a cheap semi-auto go with a Saiga. However, for an extremely accurate cheap rifle, I love my H&R bull barrel Ultra handirifle. It is accurate with bullet weights from 45 grain to 72 grain bullets. I've shot cheap Wolf ammo and expensive ammo all with no problems. However, if you are wanting to shoot military suplus ammo, don't buy one.

drphil
March 11, 2008, 10:35 PM
Leadhead, I don't think it was a good idea to post that picture unless you've paid your NFA tax for that 7615...

Doesnt it only need a stamp if the barrel is <16". Also, I thought you could from pistol to rifle just not rifle to pistol....?

JWarren
March 11, 2008, 10:55 PM
Doesnt it only need a stamp if the barrel is <16". Also, I thought you could from pistol to rifle just not rifle to pistol....?


That barrel looks 16" or greater.

Check your local laws towards overall length, but in most cases (most states), it is completely legal to remove the stock from a rifle or shotgun as long as the barrel has an overall mininum length on Shotguns (18").

You get into trouble with building a SBR or SBS where the barrel on a stocked rifle or shotgun is less than the mininum lenght (16 rifle, and 18 shotgun)

Think about it a minute... how many pistol grip shotguns have you seen? Plenty. This is the same principle.

Furthermore, there are rifle caliber pistols-- Thompson Contender anyone?


Just don't add a stock to a short barrel pistol or saw-off a rifle/shotgun below mininum length.

There are also considerations as to what makes a firearm an AOW (Any Other Weapon) but that goes beyond the scope of this.


-- John

Leadhead
March 12, 2008, 03:14 AM
It usually wears the stock it came with...the picture with the pistolgrip is the only one I have right now.
It's got a 16 1/2 inch barrel and here in Canada it's considered a non restricted firearm.

chris in va
March 12, 2008, 03:55 AM
That's wild, never seen one of those before.

Oh and yes to the Saiga or KelTec.

RockyMtnTactical
March 12, 2008, 04:14 AM
Saiga is my recommendation.

Odnar
March 12, 2008, 06:12 AM
Re: NFA tax; Also, don't put a foregrip on a handgun.

eventer289
March 12, 2008, 12:34 PM
Saiga .223. Just over $200 and an excellent rifle, and if you choose to, you can convert it to an AK configuration later as long as you satisfy the parts count rule.

What is the parts count rule?

BAT1
March 12, 2008, 01:21 PM
The Stevens .223 would be a fine bolt gun. What rifle is that serrano?

GEM
March 12, 2008, 01:54 PM
Saw the Kel-tec fall apart as the plastic cracked. YMMV - but I saw it happen with my own eyes and the dude had to use my AR and the instructor's Marlin 45 ACP camp gun to finish a class.

GRIZ22
March 12, 2008, 01:58 PM
Another vote for the Saiga. I bought one on speculation and found it to be one of the best buys I ever made. Mine is staying in the standard configuration. I think you're better off looking for 223 AK rathe than converting a Saiga.

I think a 223 is a much better choice than a 7.62x39. 223/5.56 is the standard US military cartridge and the days of cheap 7.62x39 is over.

The price will be about $300 maybe a little over by the time you're on your way home with it.

wdlsguy
March 12, 2008, 04:07 PM
What is the parts count rule?

It has to do with converting an imported semi-auto rifle from a "sporting" configuration to a "nonsporting" configuration, also known as 18 USC 922(r):

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=80

yhtomit
March 12, 2008, 05:02 PM
benEzra:

Did you mean $300 rather than $200, or is there something you'd like to share with us? I'd gladly pick up another Saiga if it was $200 :)

timothy

SaMx
March 12, 2008, 05:10 PM
Leadhead, I don't think it was a good idea to post that picture unless you've paid your NFA tax for that 7615...

look at his location. The SBR rules are different in Canada.

azhunter12
March 12, 2008, 06:22 PM
Saiga

eventer289
March 12, 2008, 06:54 PM
It has to do with converting an imported semi-auto rifle from a "sporting" configuration to a "nonsporting" configuration, also known as 18 USC 922(r):

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=80


So in other words, there must be 6 or more american made parts on the rifle?

MRIman
March 12, 2008, 06:57 PM
Inexpensive????
If your "stuck" on a .223 then a Saiga is the way to go.
If your open to new things, look at the 5.45x39 round.
The 5.45 ammo is VERY CHEAP now. 1080 rds. for $120
max. The gun can range in price.
I still have my Romie SAR-2 that was $229 shipped. They now run
in the mid 400 range.
You are atleast 3 to 1 on ammo when looking at .223.
Yes the gun will cost more then a saiga,but if you stocked up
on 5000rds,it's cheaper in the long run.
Don't want to start the .223 vs 5.45 fight. They are in the same
"ball park" as far as power.
My vote is a 5.45,now you got me thinking. Guess I'll order a few
more tins to feed the girl.

MRI

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