[Sir Galahad]

I sent away for the free Wolf Ammo brochure and, lo, it shows that they are making .30 carbine ammo now! The bullet comes in your choice of bi-metal or copper 110 grain going at 1990 fps. If it's cheap enough, that could be a good thing. It also shows they are, indeed, making .308 also in 150 and 168 grain offerings.

[hansolo]

I recently picked up a Chinese SKS....no malfs, stout but manageable recoil,I like the looks and I FINALLY,I can fire the Wolf ammo in a weapon without anxiety!:cool:

[Wildalaska]

Great, more guns to fix that are messed up by cheap ammo!

WildinventoryAlaska

[jsalcedo]

I never had a problem with wolf other than the smell.

Its nice being able to clean up the land after a day of shooting with
one of the hardware store magnets on a stick.

[coldshot03/04]

I have never had a problem with Wolf ammo. I sort of like it myself.

[Sir Galahad]

Wild Alaska---Prove your statement. Prove Wolf ammo "broke" those firearms. I've never seen Wolf ammo of any caliber cause problems and have never heard of it except from people who like to slam it because it's Russian-made and they still haven't gotten over the Cold War.

[Preacherman]

WildAlaska is right. I go up to Clark Custom Guns quite often, and their gunsmiths LOVE the Wolf ammo... they get a lot of business fixing firing pins and extractors in 1911's and AR-15's that have been broken by the hard primers and steel cases!

[Wildalaska]

Prove your statement. Prove Wolf ammo "broke" those firearms.

What do ya want me to do send ya invoices for the 15-18 Wolf damaged guns we have fixed this year?

WlidgimmeabreakAlaska

[Tropical Z]

All i know is a lot of 1911's sent a lot of steel cased ammo down their barrels in WWII.Ive had zero problems with steel cased ammo,Wolf or otherwise.

[Snowdog]

I never saw the point of buying Wolf for any of my handguns when reloadable brass-cased PMC or S&B can be had for just a few dimes more.

However, when it comes to my two "type 56" Norincos, I don't give using Wolf a second thought. Cheap, reasonably accurate and surefire; it's nearly the ideal SKS fodder going.

I've come to the conclusion my Soviet M44 will also be fed Wolf after the last impressive session I had while using it.

For some firearms, it just makes sense.

[Wildalaska]

All i know is a lot of 1911's sent a lot of steel cased ammo down their barrels in WWII.Ive had zero problems with steel cased ammo,Wolf or otherwise.

Its not just the steel case, its the quality of the ammo and the laquer coating.

I repeat for the umpteeth time..Wolf is OK for AKs, Mosins, Type 44s, SKSs...do not use in any gun you care about...

WildcheapisnotbetterAlaska

[Sir Galahad]

I've shot lots of Wolf through a Springfield MilSpec .45, a .40 Springfield XD and a Baby Eagle 9mm without a problem. What often happens is someone blames the ammo when it is simple wear or other causes. Now hard primers break 1911s and ARs!? Milspec primers are harder than commercial. Maybe the AR really is an overpriced POS just as I suspected having repaired the finicky POS's close relative, the M-16, in the army. Particularly so if hard primers damage the firing pin. And the much-vaunted ruggedness of the 1911 is defeated by a hard primer? Whatever. :rolleyes: Wild Alaska, no you don't have to send me invoices, but you DO have to prove what you're saying with factual evidence. If not, well, if you're ever in court, how about I call the judge and let them know they don't need factual evidence in your case. That someone's "sez so" will do just fine.

Sir-tiredofundocumentedBS-Galahad.

[DamnedDirtyApe]

If it costs $6 or $7 for 50 rounds, I might try it. If it's in the $10 range, I can get S&B or that other un-pronouncable Yugo communist stuff, and reload it afterward.

[Sven]

S&B is $175 a case of 1000 for .30 carbine... Aquilla is about the same (plus shipping). Love that stuff.

But I stick to the Georga Arms "canned heat" softpoints for serious work. ;)

I'm more excited about the idea of a Corbon load for .30 carbine... Terry...

[Wildalaska]

Wild Alaska, no you don't have to send me invoices, but you DO have to prove what you're saying with factual evidence. If not, well, if you're ever in court, how about I call the judge and let them know they don't need factual evidence in your case. That someone's "sez so" will do just fine.

Whatever dude...evidently you must have some financial interest in the company...

Suffice it to say, as one involved in the industry, if the stuff was woth a s**t I'd sure as hell stock it becasue its cheap and profitable..

But I digress...you want examples...these are the ones I recall off the top of my head..

Armalite AR15...fired case stuck in Chamber in a virtually brand new gun...primer was missing, primer pocket was possibly oversized...

Colt AR 15...case head blew, extractor blew.

Thompson sub gun...case head blew, damaged bolt.

Galil ARM...case head blew damged receiver....

Colt 1911...extractor sheared off, case stuck in chamber...

Mini 30...several blown cases..

Remingon 700....fired case stuck in chamber...

The problem in the foregoing was the ammo not the guns...

Like I said dear friends, use what ya want. I f anyone thinks I have an axe to grind against Wolf, ce la vie, and Id love to hear the reason. I can stock any ammo I want, and can find it as cheap as Wolf, and even if Wolf is cheaper, as a responsible person I am not gonna knowingly sell someone crap..

WildendofstoryAlaska

[Sir Galahad]

Edited by moderator. SG, please check your PM.

[Wildalaska]

You probably don't stock Wolf ammo because people can order it out of catalogs cheaper than you can sell it with probably your fairly stout mark-up, so you get a better profit margin selling whatever you do sell. You cover this up by bad-mouthing Wolf and ensure your customers buy whatever brand you're selling

dude, Im here in Alaska...people cant order ammo from catologs up here becasue of (did ya know this?) something called "Next Day Air" and "Hazmat fees"..

So all ammo is about equal in price up here my fine young knight....but not in quality...and when Wolf ammo (for example in 9mm) costa about $112 per thousand delivered and generic US made brass reloadable clean ammo costs $120K you betcha there is a big diff...


Hundreds of thousands of rounds of Wolf is fired in just one place here per year and there have been no problems that you claim here. People fire it in all kinds of firearms. So do I believe you? No, I don't.

Well whether YOU believe me or not means about as much to me as the issue of the number of cockroaches in Bangkok, but for the rest of you who may consider even using such crap ammo, and dont want to beleive me simply becasue Sir Gilahad thinks I am working this Board to make money (like I sell anyhting here or could even ship my expensive ammo down to you), and by the way it ya dont believe the Preacherman, who I guess shares my view, here some more>>>

http://www.packing.org/talk/thread.jsp/5498/

http://multi.hydrosphere.com/pipermail/biathlon/2002/000144.html

http://www.ktog.org/wwwboard/p11/messages/249.html


http://www.packing.org/news/article.jsp/4498

http://pub145.ezboard.com/ffloridashootersnetworkfrm7.showMessage?topicID=90.topic

http://www.biggerhammer.net/m96/wwwboard/index.cgi?read=4745


http://www.machinegunbooks.com/cgibin/ikonboard/printpage.cgi?forum=1&topic=349

And of course this gem:

"I've only tried Wolf ammo in my bolt gun and have been massively unimpressed. Consistency from lot to lot is pretty awful. Accuracy (in my rifle) varied from poor to abominable and some of it required real effort to open the bolt on a fired case.

If you put it through a gas gun treat it as corrosive! A number of users have reported Wolf ammo that was labled as NC but was quite C. The company claimed they corrected the "mistake" but I've read where shooters have tested later lots and found some of it to be at least mildly corrosive.

It's cheap but Nato is cheaper and usually better."

See
http://www.battlerifles.com/viewtopic.php?t=3966

And theres more, but quite frankly, gentle readers, this topic, now bores me...type in Wolf ammo in a search engine and see....agaian...cheap is not necessarily good.

Wildfini(oopsboringlyredundant)Alaska

[Badger Arms]

I bought some of that 'cheap' lesser 48 ammo and it did, indeed, break my AR-15's... two of them. Both required new extractors, extractor pins, springs, and keepers. One of them also required a new ejector.

I don't care what any of these guys who claim to know want to claim... personal experience is that it broke 50% of the guns I've fired it out of. NEVER AGAIN.

[c_yeager]

This is making me majorly rethink my prospective AR purchase. I personally dont want anything that can self destruct with cheap ammo in my cabinet.

[Sir Galahad]

Wildalaska, first, using the word "dude" makes it hard to take you seriously. "Dude" is high school vernacular. When I hear the word "dude" over and over, I think high school. Second, you insinuated I must be paid off by Wolf, but then you didn't like being accused of similar things yourself. You get the respect (or lack of) you give. I asked for proof of your statements and you came back with an accusation of being a shill. That is an insult. That's all I'm going to say at this point and I think we have nothing constructive left to say to one another.

[Wildalaska]

Thats the beauty of the AK vis a vis. the AR...it was in fact designed to use crap ammunion and be fired by soldiers that were little more than barely trained cannon fodder fighting with obsolete tactics...every time you pull the trigger it wiol go bang...and lay down a wall of lead..

Ever see them used as chairs?

WilditsthegundesignedtobeusedbymenwhoneversawaflushtoiletAlaska

[Sir Galahad]

And your point? If you wish to continue this conversation, you can PM or email. Now I shall address some rather ridiculous points you made. Since you've chosen the flush toilet as the pinnacle of human evolution and creative thought, I suppose that puts the Cradle of Western Civilization, Classical Greece, in the same league as an itinerant Bedoin seeking hither and yon for frankincense beads to trade for flatbread. Yes, that's right, Socrates, Plato, voting, democracy...all utterly insignificant in comparison to that high point of Sears Roebuck catalog reading comfort: the flush toilet. Let's not forget the Pyramids of Egypt, oh, wait, we can. They didn't come equipped with flush toilets. Since the Constitution was written without the presence of the flush toilet to justify it being the product of sophisticates, we can just dismiss that as the scribblings of men barely two steps removed from searching their compatriots armpit hair for fleas to consume and flinging their dung at passers-by. Indeed, until the advent of the flush toilet, everything was but one monotonous limp along the road of failure. The flush toilet is the light of the entire world. One may think it was the process of advanced tool-making that set us apart from Australopithecus, but, in fact, none were free from the knurled brow of lesser hominid species until the flush toilet brightened the horizon of mankind. Homo habilis and neanderthalis both went the way of extinction, along with the mastodon, for want of appropriate waste product receptacles that could propel the waste products forth in an awe-inspiring jet of water. What thanks we owe not to men such as Pericles, but to men such as Crapper. For without the flush toilet, we would be left to wander the bleak landscape of darkness and chaos, crying out in the night for the ability to dispose of waste without once touching spade to soil. We should indeed be grateful that those heathen comm-u-nests never invaded and confiscated our flush toilets, the Cradle of Western Civilization (or shall I say, the Throne of Western Civilization.) In fact, sinister plans have come to light about Al Quiada planning to blow up the free world's supply of toilet repair parts, thusly plunging us into a second dark age as soon as every clapper valve refuses to seat. Thank you, wildalaska, for reminding us of this important defining truth of humanity. And may all those godless flush toilet-less barbarians perish in everlasting flames.

[Badger Arms]

Wow, must be hot down there.

The AK-47 was designed for a tapered case... In order for the 222 to be suitable to meet the minimum Army range requirements, the case taper was blown out. Not only did they blow it out, but they operate at a much higher pressure than the AK with a thinner case. In a perfect world, this would be fine. When you use steel cases which don't spring back as much as brass, the cases tend to stick in the chambers. The AR-15 isn't the problem, it's the chabering. The AR-15 could have used a case with greater taper and larger rim. Why it wasn't is a very long story.

Still, WOLF AMMO SUCKS, DUDE!

[Sir Galahad]

"Dude".....hmmmm....where was it last I heard that word before here....AH! 10th grade homeroom:

"Whoaaaaa!!! Duuuuuude! I scored some monster buds, duuude! I mean, like, wow, ya know!? Me and my girlfriend like got totally wasted listening to Iron Maiden and AC/DC last night! Ohhh, duuude! Ya shoulda been there! It as, like, so totally rad!"

Yes public schools. A good defining moment in the argument for eugenics.

[Wildalaska]

The AR-15 isn't the problem, it's the chabering. The AR-15 could have used a case with greater taper and larger rim. Why it wasn't is a very long story.

Of course still doesnt change the fact that the AK47 was designed by a genius to be used by idiots....soldiers (using the term loosley) who werent even allowed to adjust their own sights...

Masses of em walking and spraying lead....

But regardless...

Still, WOLF AMMO SUCKS, DUDE!

Right on....










Dude!

WildspicoliAlaska

[Tropical Z]

This thread proves to me that AR's are fragile,sissy merry guns!:what:

[Joe Demko]

Yes public schools. A good defining moment in the argument for eugenics.

Like, take a few breaths, dude! Peach in, green out, peach in, green out. Yer radiating some majorly bad vibes! That Wolf ammo is like poopie-doopie. I don't know about it like damaging any guns n' stuff, but it is like horribly inconsistent, dirty, and smelly. You need to take a chill-pill, dudester.

GolgoIteachhighschool-13

[444]

This topic is probably the most discussed topic on this board. Same things are said on every thread, so I will repeat my story for the 30th time.

I have shot a whole lot of Wolf ammo. I have fired in excess of five thousand rounds of Wolf through my AR15s alone. Not one single solitary problem of any kind. NONE. ZERO. ZIP. NADA.

Now let me ask a question. Before you decide that a certain ammo is a good quality load, how many rounds do you fire ? A couple mags ? A couple boxes ? Two Hundred ? I decided Wolf was quality ammo after firing over five CASES just in 5.56. I have shot it in probably at least a half dozen calibers other than 5.56. I could have read some BS on-line and believed it, I could have bought one whole box of 20 and tried it and made up my mind on the issue. I didn't do that. I probably fired more Wolf in the last year than most AR15 owners will EVER put through their rifle, so I think I have an idea of what I am talking about.
My last formal carbine class I shot Wolf. On the final day shoot off, I shot the high score by over twice the next closest guy. I won the man on man shoot off also. I missed one shot on steel from the prone position at 400 meters with Wolf.

I call BS on this thread just like I have on every thread like this.

I brought this up the last time I posted on a thread like this: "they get a lot of business fixing firing pins and extractors in 1911's and AR-15's that have been broken by the hard primers and steel cases!"
What kind of AR15 owner needs to take a gun to a gunsmith to change a firing pin or an extractor ? Stripping a bolt is part of a routine cleaning. Completely tearing down an AR15 bolt is basic knowlege and is completely covered in the manual. No tools are required. This tells me that the guy taking his AR15 to Clarks for a firing pin or an extractor doesn't know the first thing about the weapon. He doesn't know how to clean it properly or care for it. Might that be the problem ? Oh, no, we need something else to blame it on. And 1911s, again, firing pin and extractor come right out without tools. The firing pin is a drop in part. So, who takes a 1911 for a firing pin to Clarks ? An experience shooter who knows his weapon and how to maintain it; NO. I used to shoot IPSC and put a whole lot of ammo through my 1911 every month. I was going through a couple extractors and or ejectors a year. And you know what ? I never fired a round of Wolf out of the gun ever. What can we blame it on now ? Maybe routine wear and tear ? Tropical Z makes a great point, if steel cased ammo is so bad, how did we make it through WWII using it in 1911s ?

The best part about theads like this is that there is all kinds of wild speculation and unsubstantiated drivel. No one wants to hear about those people who have actually done enough testing on the subject to know what they are talking about.

[Badger Arms]

Dude, I gotsta disagree with yous. The AK-47 was designed by a group of geniuses, IN WARTIME GERMANY AND THE USA. The gun is literally a cross between an STG-44 and an M-1 Carbine (from which it gets its bolt). The 7.62x39 is nearly an exact copy of the 7.92x33 German Assault rifle cartridge altered a little. It's the Russian way of slightly altering good foreign cartridges and guns for their own use. All Kalashnikov was was a good poster boy for the project of adapting and simplifying the manufacturing process.

Now they're capitalists trying to flood the market with CHEAP, inaccurate steel cased ammo made on machines designed to produce mountains of passable ammo for a War with the USA that never came. About the only thing this stuff is good for is shooting out of RUSSIAN guns. Thankfully for them, their guns aren't designed to hit anything specifically.

[Badger Arms]

What kind of AR15 owner needs to take a gun to a gunsmith to change a firing pin or an extractor ? Stripping a bolt is part of a routine cleaning.Hehehe. I was showing my 11-year-old Step-Son how to disassemble the AR-15. I gave him the one he shot while I cleaned mine. He learned quickly and was very happy to be able to do this. He told me something like, "Now I can clean my Dad's AR-15." He told me that his Dad never takes his apart because when he tried he broke that pin thingy in the front and had to take it to a gunsmith. He said as long as it doesn't jam, he's going to keep shooting it... Now 444, would you tell this guy... who put TIRES ON HIS CAR BACKWARDS and thinks FLASHING YOUR HIGH BEAMS CHANGES STREET LIGHTS TO GREEN that disassembling an AR-15 is easy?

444, you come to the defense of Wolf every time and use the same argument. Sometimes you state that it's good in your guns and then you'll state how many rounds you've fired. I don't disagree with you, but you'd have to be calling me and others liars. While I don't own any Bushmaster uppers or any Chrome lined barrels, I don't own an AR-15 that Wolf will shoot out of. My sample size is One case... Why didn't I reach the 1,000,000 round mark with this fantastic stuff? Because it DAMAGED TWO OF MY GUNS and I've only gotten through half the case. If you think it's that great, come up here to Alaska and I'll trade you two-for-one for any other brand of .223.

[444]

"While I don't own any Bushmaster uppers or any Chrome lined barrels, I don't own an AR-15 that Wolf will shoot out of. "

I freely admit that all the AR15s I have fired Wolf out of do have chrome lined chambers and barrels, and they are all chambered for 5.56 NATO. I don't know if this matters or not. I do however see this as a gun issue and not an ammo issue. I fully agree that an argument could be made either way, but that is my take on it. I purposely bought chrome lined barrels and chambers in 5.56 because I wanted the upmost in reliability. And, it seems to have paid off. I really only have one axe to grind on this issue and that is cost. In 5.56, Wolf is significantly cheaper than anything else I can get. In fact, out of all the brands of ammo my dealer gets from his wholesaler, it is at least $55 cheaper per case. That means all the more practice for me. And when it works fine, I see no reason to pay 50% more. I am not cheap. I am not poor. I would happily pay the extra money if there was some tangible reason to do so; for me, there isn't. This also makes traveling to Alaska to make a trade a bad deal for me. I can get Wolf for $97 a case. PMC is something like $155. So getting two for one wouldn't be that great of a deal. :D I am not saying that Wolf is the best ammo ever made. I am not saying it is the most accurate ammo produced. But, it runs fine though MY guns and it exhibits accuracy adequate for what I do with it. I never actualy bench rest tested it, but I have shot some pretty good groups with it from field positions.

I know I come off with the same argument every time, but think about it. If you had some experience with something, fairly extensive experience with something and you read over and over something that flies in the face of that experience, wouldn't you argue the point ? I know I am obnoxious about it, but it just doesn't compute for me. If you owned a vehile, let's say a Ford and you put 200,000 hard miles on it without any significant problems and someone else said they are junk wouldn't you want to put your two cents in on the issue ? What if you did that with several vehicles and never had a problem ?

Sure, there are many people in the world that can't accomplish the most simple tasks. I am sure we could all come up with examples of people we know who can't screw in a light bulb. But the fact is that millions of people throughout the world have been trained on the M16 weapons system including basic field stripping. When I went through basic back in the early 80s, half my company had never graduated from high school. There were guys that never did grasp the concept of doing inspection arms by the numbers. But they all could disassemble the bolt on an M16. Based on this, I have to conclude that it isn't difficult in the least. Maybe your friends dad needs a little instruction. What little thingy did he break ? The cotter key ?

[444]

By the way, I am not calling anyone a lair.
I do however think that some people jump to conclusions. I also think that people tend to come up with answers that support their own viewponts.

I have taken a couple carbine classes, and it was only at the last one that I used Wolf ammo. Before I went I found out what ammo they provided if you chose them to provide your ammo for you. I then took that ammo. The reason is stated above. In my mind, if I took Wolf ammo and had any kind of gun problem at all, I felt sure that the first and last answer would be that the reason was because I was using Wolf ammo. They wouldn't think about it, this would be the knee jerk reaction. So, to eliminate this possibility, I used whatever ammo they used. And at one class I did have a problem that was ammo related. I was using PMC. I had a failure to fire. When I did the malfunciton drill I found that the bullet had come out of the case and filled the aciton with powder. The first question out of their mouth was; what ammo are you using ? When I answered they just shrugged it off; to them it couldn't be an ammo issue unless it was a brand they didn't like.
At the course I took where I did use Wolf ammo it functioned flawlessly. But, never the less, at the end of the course one of the instructors said to me, you know, I wouldn't use that ammo for personal defense. Steel chambers don't like that steel cased ammo. I was going to ask him why I didn't have any problems at all with it during the class, which he was personal witness to, but instead I just shook my head. I wouldn't use Wolf for personal protection either, but not because I don't believe it would funtion through the gun fine.

[4v50 Gary]

Guys, the discussion is about issues, not personalities. We may disagree and argue among ourselves, but we do so civilly. Thanks for keeping it civil.

[Andrew Wyatt]

I keep my guns reasonably clean, and shoot lots of wolf, and have no problems.


In fact, one of my mini-14's has recently started ripping caseheads off of brass cases, leaving them stuck in the chamber.


Not so with wolf. it'll get fed wolf untill i can fix the problem.

[Sir Galahad]

Fascinating. Here's Badger talking about an American who put tires on his car backwards, yet Wildalaska has labeled the whole of Eastern Europe and most of the continent of Asia as "idiots". What's fascinating is that the Caucasus, in Central Asia, is the root for "Caucasian", what many mistakenly call "white people" (the closer term would actually be "Indo-European" and also that the ancestors of "white people" probably came from the area around the Black Sea, but I digress.) So, does this mean, by proxy, "white people" are idiots? Oh, well, we shall have to ponder these intriguing questions whilst sitting upon the pinnacle of human evolution, the flush toilet. Perhaps even with such stimulating reading material as something of the Mack Bolan series. Surely Mack Bolan would never stoop as to use ammo made by anecephelic cretins from Central Asia who are still distilling their liquor from the teats of a horse. Conclusion: Before dismissing an entire race as "idiots, perhaps find if you are not related to them first.

I still find it rather hard to believe that"hard primers" damage the firing pins of what are allegedly milspec weapons. Milspec primers are hard. After a few thousand rounds of South African and Portuguese military surplus through my Ruger M77 International without any damage to the firing pin from hard milspec primers, I find it even harder to believe. The Ruger is a sporting rifle, not a milspec rifle. Yet, I am to believe that milspec primers will damage the AR-15 firing pin before that of the Ruger? Can this be true? If so, perhaps we ought to be issuing Ruger M77s to our troops and using the ARs as sporting rifles.


Moderators: Edited to add I am not adressing personalities with the first part of this post, but rather the continuing assertion of racial inferiority of Central Asians which I find rather distasteful. Thank you.

[444]

I apologize. My first post was pretty hard. Frustration got the better of me and I was too emotional. I am sorry if anyone was offended.

[Tamara]

4V50 Gary's post, while written in standard American English, seems to be less intelligible than intended.

Closed.