[Guyon]

So I pop open the Bass Pro sale flyer to check out the sale shotguns for turkey season. Almost every single one had a thumbhole stock or a pistol grip. :confused:

Do these things really afford that much better control? I've killed turkeys with three different regular-stock 870s and never felt like the gun was mis-aimed or out of control. And as one fellow pointed out on another board, "one flaw in the Mossberg design is that when applying a thumbhole or pistol grip stock to a Mossberg, it significantly moves your hand away from the safety." He's spot on there.

I can perhaps see a little bit of benefit from the pistol grip if you're crouched down low against a tree. Bringing the gun up to aim might involve a little less wrist-cock on the trigger hand. Still, it's not that much of an advantage.

Best thing since sliced bread or just a gimmick? I vote gimmick.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/guyon5/BP1.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/guyon5/BP2.jpg

Maybe if the Divisions of Wildlife and Natural Resources start arming turkeys with IEDs and small arms, then we'll need a Tactical Turkey Shotgun. Until then, my regular, old 870s seem to work just fine.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/guyon5/Earthlink%20Dump/turkey.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/guyon5/Earthlink%20Dump/Turkey-1.jpg

[charby]

Why? Because people will spend money on it and you need a tacticool turkey gun.

I'm in the same boat as you, I shoot my turkeys with the same shotguns that I go bird hunting with.

[kentucky_smith]

Your old 870 is camo and has a sling. :D

[TexAg]

Same with 3.5" Turkey loads, I just dont think you need that much power. Once they are in the kill zone they won't leave all that easy! I've used 2 3/4" loads in a 1915 vintage Winchester model 1912 with 100% success! The wood stock doesn't seem to alert them too much!

[Zundfolge]

I, for one, welcome the tacticalization of hunting weapons ... makes that whole "sporting purpose" bovine scat a little less enforceable.

I do find that recoil in a pistol gripped long gun seems more manageable than a standard stock (that assumes a butt stock too ... pistol grip only is less manageable).

[G17Steve]

Yeah Turkeys must be arming themselves thats why people need tacticool turkey guns. I personaly have never understood the pistol gripped shotgun for any purpose.

[41magsnub]

I, for one, welcome the tacticalization of hunting weapons ... makes that whole "sporting purpose" bovine scat a little less enforceable.

There's that I guess, but it doesn't make them look any less ridiculous. and I agree the thumbhole stock makes no sense whatsoever on a tang safety shotgun. Man that would be awkward.

[Guyon]

Your old 870 is camo and has a sling. :D

Well, they're not exactly newfangled anymore now, are they? :p

[Wineoceros]

Since I actually own a shotgun with a pistol grip (albeit an aftermarket one I installed myself) I feel qualified to weigh in here...

Granted, there may be some who are motivated by the aesthetic appearance of pistol grips and thumbholes, but I'm not one of them. I opted for one due to the superior (for me) ergonomics. It is far more comfortable to hold my wrist at the angle afforded by the PG than that required to grip a standard stock...especially, as you already noted, in a sitting position that is so common when hunting turkey. It also does provide some additional control. Personally, I don't see a compelling reason to NOT have such a grip on a long gun. In fact, I'm currently shopping for a thumbhole replacement stock for my Savage 111.

That my stock (a Knoxx SpecOps) is also adjustable and recoil-reducing are great added benefits as well.

If you like a regular stock, great. But that doesn't make a different style that results in very real (and beneficial to many) changes to the ergonomics a "gimmick".

Well, they're not exactly newfangled anymore now, are they?
Wasn't everything "newfangled" at one time?

[Gord]

This is what would happen if ExtremeShock ever branched out into the custom-shotgun market. "WITH FOUR-POSITION M4 BUTTSTOCK FOR EASIER SHOULDERING OVER REALTREE™ BALLISTIC KEVLAR VEST (see pg. 37)"

...

Man, I should have chosen Tactical Turkey as my username.

[Guyon]

If you like a regular stock, great. But that doesn't make a different style that results in very real (and beneficial to many) changes to the ergonomics a "gimmick".

Hey, I never said I was right. :D

Next time I'm in Academy or Bass Pro, I'm going to have a look at a PG 870 meant for turkey hunting. I'll even sit down in the floor and see how it would feel in a typical turkey hunting position. I'll report back on the ergos.

Just in terms of getting a grip on the gun in a hurry, the PG seems to be more advantageous. And the 870 safety certainly seems more ergonomic than the Mossberg versions in these designs.

[rcmodel]

"If you build it, they will come!"

I kill turkeys with my old A-5 Browning full-choke and #7 1/2 Trap Loads.

I guess I could probably kill them much deader then dead with a 3 1/2 mag, thumb-hole, Tackycool Turky shotgun and 2 oz mag loads then?

rcmodel

[highorder]

said it before, I'll say it again; most fishing lures are designed to carch fishermen. :)

[Guyon]

I guess I could probably kill them much deader then dead with a 3 1/2 mag, thumb-hole, Tackycool Turky shotgun and 2 oz mag loads then?

That is correct. They would be more deader.

[foghornl]

Those things look odd to me, but I have never tried a thumb-n-pistol-grip or thumbhole only stock.

Have tried a plain Pistol Grip Only...Not for me.

[Marshall]

I picked up and handled one for the first time at Bass Pro Shop this last weekend. I handed it back and said, no thanks.

[Wineoceros]

"If you build it, they will come!"

I kill turkeys with my old A-5 Browning full-choke and #7 1/2 Trap Loads.

I guess I could probably kill them much deader then dead with a 3 1/2 mag, thumb-hole, Tackycool Turky shotgun and 2 oz mag loads then?
Your forefathers killed many, many turkey (and countless other game animals) just as dead using flintlocks. So why do you feel the need to use that there newfangled "tacticool" pump-action repeating shotgun (or whatever non-flintlock gun you're using)?

These arguments based on nothing but dismissive snobbery are just plain ridiculous. Much like the "plastic gun" nonsense.

[kentucky_smith]

If my (recent) forefathers killed a turkey, it was one they'd been feeding in the barnyard with an ax. Wild turkeys are a pretty recent development around here. If you go back far enough, they'd have used a rifle.

[Wineoceros]

If my (recent) forefathers killed a turkey, it was one they'd been feeding in the barnyard with an ax. Wild turkeys are a pretty recent development around here. If you go back far enough, they'd have used a rifle.
Did you miss the point (which has nothing to do with the history of wild turkeys in N. America), or are you intentionally side-stepping it?

Oh, by the way...if you actually are in Kentucky, wild turkeys have been abundant in most of the state for a long time.

[Guyon]

My point had nothing to do with snobbery. I've seen that kind of thinking in the muzzleload crowd, and it always turned me off.

What surprised me is that, other than one Express model, Bass Pro didn't feature another single regular-stock in their sale flyer. The message there is that the old stocks are passé. While I'm not so naïve as to believe such, the ads do send a message: "Your current shotguns are out-of-date." That *is* a little gimmicky.

.

[Wineoceros]

What surprised me is that, other than one Express model, Bass Pro didn't feature another single regular-stock in their sale flyer. The message there is that the old stocks are passé. While I'm not so naïve as to believe such, the ads do send a message: "Your current shotguns are out-of-date." That *is* a little gimmicky.
I wouldn't argue with that. But then, that's a point about BP's marketing rather than the design feature itself.

[sm]

I am fine with a traditional shotgun myself. To me it is more versatile for all shotgun uses, then again I am older and was mentored in a earlier time.


Word is, old Tom "Bugger" Beard come up the thumb hole idea .
He had a problem keeping his head down on the stock.
Now he knew if he lifted his head, he would see a missed shot on a turkey.

He was diggin' another bugger out of his nose, contemplating all this shotgun, turkeys, and lifting his head stuff - when the idea hit 'em.

He drilled a hole in his stock big enough for his thumb, and with his thumb picking buggers, he did not lift his head.

The rest is history as they say...

*wink*

[Zundfolge]

What surprised me is that, other than one Express model, Bass Pro didn't feature another single regular-stock in their sale flyer. The message there is that the old stocks are passé.
No the message there is that regular-stocks sell well enough that they don't have to go out of their way to advertise them.

Keep in mind that if a store puts product X in their flyer, its because either they haven't sold as much of product X as they would like to have or product X is "New".

[greyeyezz]

It is far more comfortable to hold my wrist at the angle afforded by the PG than that required to grip a standard stock...especially, as you already noted, in a sitting position that is so common when hunting turkey. It also does provide some additional control.

Exactly. For hunting ground based game I wouldn't have it any other way. Absorbs recoil much better than a standard stock. My standard 870 stock has never been back on the gun since I went PG.

[Wineoceros]

No the message there is that regular-stocks sell well enough that they don't have to go out of their way to advertise them.
That's interesting, because I constantly see flyers and various ads from other stores (Academy, Dick's, Cabela's, et al) chock-full of "regular" stocked shotguns.

In this case it's likely more to the point that TH/PG stocks are becoming more popular for turkey hunting, and that's the market being targeted by this section of the flyer.

[Marshall]

They all have to have something new to sell. Them marketing guys and product managers gotta do something.

[doubleg]

My buddy has a thumb hole stocked Mossberg slug gun, other than the action being terrible the stock is the most uncomfortable one i've ever used.

[chas08]

I am fine with a traditional shotgun myself. To me it is more versatile for all shotgun uses, then again I am older and was mentored in a earlier time.
DITTO; There's nothinig wrong with PG's they're just not right for me. Errrr...except for my Bushmaster...that is.;)

[Wineoceros]

Errrr...except for my Bushmaster...that is.
Which makes a good point. Namely, that the notion of PGs on long guns as "gimmicky" is a pretty tough sell considering that they've been the standard for battle rifles for several decades now. Yes, yes...I know that a SG is not a BR, but the ergonomics and functionality provided by a PG is quite similar on the two platforms.

[Ash]

It is the posh thing to do, otherwise explain why the thumbhole is $100 more expensive than the pistol grip? Folks may like it, and that is fine by me, but the $100 extra screams gimmick/fad.

Ash

[HGUNHNTR]

OK let me spell it out for everyone who is having a hard time with this. Your trusty old 870 pheasant gun does not have a pistol grip stock. Gun manufacturers and retailers want you to buy MORE guns right?! Well VIOLA! the specialized turkey gun!! Its all about more sales folks! Maybe its better ergonomically for some people, maybe not, but the reason for their existence is to generate more sales...... plain and simple.

[Wineoceros]

It is the posh thing to do, otherwise explain why the thumbhole is $100 more expensive than the pistol grip? Folks may like it, and that is fine by me, but the $100 extra screams gimmick/fad.
False premise. Which guns are you referring to as "the" thumbhole and pistol grip? The two Mossberg 835 variants are priced exactly the same. Are you assuming that a price difference between two other guns must be solely due to the stocks?

OK let me spell it out for everyone who is having a hard time with this.
Oh, please do instruct us.

Your trusty old 870 pheasant gun does not have a pistol grip stock. Gun manufacturers and retailers want you to buy MORE guns right?! Well VIOLA! the specialized turkey gun!!
I guess the idea of appealing to new shotgun purchasers (you do know that not everyone on the planet already owns one...right?) with a competatively advantaged product (or at least one keeping up with trends) never occured to you.

There's also the fact that your existing trusty 870 can already have a new stock easily and far more cheaply added to it (which I'm sure most people are able to figure out), thus eliminating the incentive to buy a whole new gun.

Its all about more sales folks! Maybe its better ergonomically for some people, maybe not
It absolutely is, at least for some.

but the reason for their existence is to generate more sales...... plain and simple.
That may be simple, but it certainly isn't plain, nor even a well-supported argument.

[Ash]

Wine, relax. You like what you like. Fine. Don't get too worked up about this. However, take a look at the Remingtons posted. Here it is again. I am not lying.

And, it is about sales. You may like the product, but it isn't about some noble pursuit by Remington, Mossberg, or anyone else.

[Wineoceros]

Wine, relax.
I'm quite relaxed, thanks.

You like what you like. Fine. Don't get too worked up about this.
Don't presume that I'm "worked up" about anything. I'm simply countering invalid and poorly-supported assertions. That's a big part of substantive discussion.

However, take a look at the Remingtons posted.
I've already seen the whole thing. Why not simply answer the question regarding which two guns you're comparing? I have to ask because there aren't any two in the ad that differ only in the stocks.

Here it is again. I am not lying.
Who said you were lying?

And, it is about sales.
Of course its about sales. All commercial endevors are about sales. That doesn't mean that the only (or even primary) purpose of these stocks is to get people to toss out their perfectly good existing guns and buy one of these new ones. That isn't even close to rational, and would be a losing investment by the manufacturers.

You may like the product, but it isn't about some noble pursuit by Remington, Mossberg, or anyone else.
What is it with this insistence on putting words in people's mouths? Where did I say anything about any "noble pursuit" by anyone? If you're going to respond to me then I ask that you at least have the decency to not misrepresent what I've said.

[Ash]

Never mind. I'm getting pretty tired of guys around here getting their panties in a wad. I'm out of this discussion.

Ash

[Guyon]

Wineceros, you got us, man. We're all just dying to buy PG shotguns, but we're too durn cheap to do it. The only other alternative is to knock the PG grip in general and convince ourselves we don't need it.

:p ;)

[Wineoceros]

Never mind. I'm getting pretty tired of guys around here getting their panties in a wad.
Maybe if you were more honest and not so eager to misrepresent what others say you wouldn't have these problems.

I'm out of this discussion.
Considering your refusal to even answer a simple question I'd say you were never really in a discussion.

Wineceros, you got us, man. We're all just dying to buy PG shotguns, but we're too durn cheap to do it.
See my response above. That's not even close to anything I've said here.

Seriously. If you can't be honest in a discussion, why even bother?

[HGUNHNTR]

The increased interest in turkey hunting has definitely opened up some new niche markets for manufacturers. Some of the newly designed products are fantastic, others are a poor attempt to cash in on a new market.
If you don't believe the introduction of new items is an attempt to generate sales, then you sir are truly in the dark.

Also Wineceoceros, please remember this is The High Road. Please try to keep your posts civil.

[Guyon]

facetious

Main Entry: fa·ce·tious

Pronunciation: \fə-ˈsē-shəs\

Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle French facetieux, from facetie jest, from Latin facetia

Date: 1599

1 : joking or jesting often inappropriately : waggish <just being facetious>

2 : meant to be humorous or funny : not serious <a facetious remark>

Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/facetious

See my response above. That's not even close to anything I've said here.

Seriously. If you can't be honest in a discussion, why even bother?

Seriously, if you take everything you read at face value, I don't know how you get by in the world.

Seriously, I was not writing seriously.

[Wineoceros]

If you don't believe the introduction of new items is an attempt to generate sales, then you sir are truly in the dark.
Maybe you should have read the comment in which I acknowledge that of course all new products and advertising are about generating sales.

Also Wineceoceros, please remember this is The High Road. Please try to keep your posts civil.
My posts have been far more civil than what I've been responding to. Or are you suggesting that snarky comments and dishonestly misrepresenting someone's statements is "high road"?

Seriously, if you take everything you read at face value, I don't know how you get by in the world.
By understanding that even sarcasm is intended to convey a kernel of truth.

[Guyon]

Wineoceros, it's interesting how you want to impose here your ideas of what a "discussion" should look like.

Not every post is intended as an invitation to a formal point-by-point debate.

I second Ash's advice: relax a little. That goes for your conceptions of how bulletin board threads should proceed.

My posts have been far more civil than what I've been responding to. Or are you suggesting that snarky comments and dishonestly misrepresenting someone's statements is "high road"?

How would you know other posts are "snarky"? *gasp* Does this mean that you're reading into what people are writing? Could you possibly be guilty of misrepresentation yourself?

Seriously, if you can't take a little good-natured ribbing, you don't belong in the pool with the big kids.

[Guyon]

Oh and seriously, I am out of this discussion now as well. It was a thread about shotguns. Wineoceros has derailed it into a thread about posting protocol. Seriously.

[Wineoceros]

Wineoceros, it's interesting how you want to impose here your ideas of what a "discussion" should look like.
I'm not attempting to impose my ideas of anything on anyone. On the other hand, words have generally agreed upon meanings, and "discussion" is no different. Makig a claim and then, after realizing that it isn't accurate, refusing to answer a simple question about it most certainly doesn't qualify as any resonable definition of honest "discussion".

Not every post is intended as an invitation to a formal point-by-point debate.
No, but when a point (or at least a claim) is made it is legitimate to question it. If you can't stand to have your points questioned then making them in a public discussion forum is a very strange practice.

What's even more interesting is your tacit approval (and even participation in) dishonest rhetorical tactics like strawman arguments. Why do you find them acceptable?

I second Ash's advice: relax a little.
The presumption that you need to offer advice here is not warranted.

That goes for your conceptions of how bulletin board threads should proceed.
Since I've said nothing about how bulletin board threads should proceed I have to ask what you think those conceptions are?

[Wineoceros]

Oh and seriously, I am out of this discussion now as well. It was a thread about shotguns.
Try reading my posts. That's what I was discussing.

Wineoceros has derailed it into a thread about posting protocol. Seriously.
That would be a lie. I was discussing the subject on its merits. You and Ash have opted to turn it into a personal pissing match, and had to resort to false statements to do so.

[plumberroy]

Here is what I know : there has been no major improvement in 50 years. gun industry thrives on "New and Improved" since guns in there currant state are about as far as they can go gimmicks and flash are the way they go . true some will like or do better with one of these add ons they do nothing vastly better than guns of the 60's what the gun and ammo industry are really telling you is. buying all this high dollar stuff will make up for you not being a better hunter 'cuse me while I don my fire suit :D
Roy

[Wineoceros]

No need for asbestos, but...

buying all this high dollar stuff will make up for you not being a better hunter
$319 (at BP...even less elsewhere) for a good pump shotgun is "high dollar stuff"?

[Guyon]

That would be a lie. I was discussing the subject on its merits. You and Ash have opted to turn it into a personal pissing match, and had to resort to false statements to do so.

Excuse me? I know I said I was out of it, but seriously, you need to refresh your own memory. Seriously.

See my response above. That's not even close to anything I've said here.

Seriously. If you can't be honest in a discussion, why even bother?

What is it with this insistence on putting words in people's mouths? Where did I say anything about any "noble pursuit" by anyone? If you're going to respond to me then I ask that you at least have the decency to not misrepresent what I've said.

No, but when a point (or at least a claim) is made it is legitimate to question it. If you can't stand to have your points questioned then making them in a public discussion forum is a very strange practice.

What's even more interesting is your tacit approval (and even participation in) dishonest rhetorical tactics like strawman arguments. Why do you find them acceptable?

Toss around your rhetorical terms all you'd like. Perhaps you'd like to look up red herrings and false authority? :D Seriously, on some of these boards, I feel like I'm typing to frustrated high-school debate coaches. Seriously.

I think you'd be happier in the Political subforum perhaps. Seriously. :p

I still think you're taking this all a little too seriously. Seriously. :neener:

[Guyon]

Okay, now I'm done. Seriously.

I PM'ed Dave and asked him if he'd like to shut this one down. It's no longer serving any purpose except pissing competition.

Because of my use of "gimmick" and my questioning of design on his beloved PG shotgun, I believe Wineoceros had his panties in a wad from Post Numero Uno in this thread, and no amount of rhetorical posturing will convince me otherwise. I also have a suspicion he's the type that would argue with a Publisher's Clearing House Rep handing him $10 million dollar check. ("Waitasecond, you're not going to deposit that for me? Aren't the taxes going to kill me? Can I call your boss and see if you're legitimate? Don't I have to sign a release for you to be taping this?") :p :D

In other words, life's too short.