Pietta Remington 1858 conversion problem

[Doc Rizzi]

Before I take it apart again I want to ask if any of you have had the conversion cylinder rotate slightly the opposite way when de-cocking (is that a word?) the revolver. I am of the mind that I need to make an adjustment to the hand but I would rather not be guessing. Any input here?

[StrawHat]

I don't have a Remington clone but it does happen with my some of Colt clones.

[mykeal]

I don't see the problem here.

[Doc Rizzi]

I have ten other PB clones and none of them except this one move the cylinder in the opposite direction upon de-cocking. As this is the exception, I was curious if anyone else had experienced this and if there was an adjustment I was missing that would correct this. It doesn't seem right.

[sundance44s]

Doc I`ve had this problem with a new Remington ..never a well worn older one ..what it is the ratchets in the back of the conversion cylinder are a little different shaped than the ones on the cap and ball cylinder , So what happens is when you have the pistol in full cock the hand is a tad long for this cylinder`s ratchets and is keeping upward pressure on the ratchet , so when you (decock ) not sure if thats the right word eaither ..lol but I understand ..The upward pressure is releived ...as long as you aren`t have index problems like over travel of the cylinder , it will break in ...other wise the fix would involve trimming the tip of the hand or makeing adjustments to the ratchets on the conversion cylinder ...

[Doc Rizzi]

thanks...I took it apart again last night and noticed that the hand does make a pretty firm contact with the back of the conversion. I will stone it little by little and keep trying it. Thank you.

[Old Fuff]

Guys….

Take pity on the poor Ol’ Fuff, he may have to write a book yet. :banghead:

To solve problems with a cap & ball revolver you have to start by understanding how it works – or at least should.

When you start to cock the hammer it rotates backwards. When it does this a stud or cam located on the bottom/right side of it picks up the tail (back) end of the cylinder bolt and lifts it. In doing so it causes the front of the bolt to rotate downward, and as it drops the cylinder is unlatched and free to turn.

As the hammer goes further backwards the hand pushes on the ratchet tooth, causing the cylinder to turn. Meanwhile the cam is rotating in an arc away from the bolt’s tail. At some point after the hammer has passed half-cock the bolt will be released and the trigger & bolt spring will cause it to pop up, and as the cylinder is rotated to the next chamber the top of the bolt will engage a notch in the cylinder and lock the chamber in line with the bore.

When the trigger is pulled the hammer will quickly fall and hit the cap. During this time the bolt shouldn’t move and the cylinder remains locked. The cylinder is not unlocked until the hammer is cocked again, and the process described above is repeated.

The key point here is that if the bolt is working correctly the cylinder cannot move while the hammer is being lowered, either when the hammer is falling under the pressure of the mainspring or by the user’s thumb.

However this presumes that the hammer is brought all of the way back before it is lowered. Otherwise the cam may still be holding the bolt’s tail, and if the cylinder is unlocked it can indeed more in either direction unless the point of the hand is firmly against the ratchet tooth.

So, in the case of a Colt or Colt style revolver remove both the barrel and cylinder, or if you have a Remington or similar gun remove the cylinder. Then watch the bolt as you cock the hammer and lower it. Hopefully you’ll notice something unusual is happening, but in any case the cylinder can’t move if it’s locked in place, and it should only be unlocked during part of the hammer’s backward stroke.

Right?????????????? :scrutiny: :scrutiny: :scrutiny:

[mykeal]

Right??????????????
Assuming, of course, that the parts are all the right size and properly installed, not worn on one edge, etc. etc. etc.

Yep, that's how it's supposed to work. Is your point that what's happening can't possibly be happening?

[Old Fuff]

Point???? What point????? Do I have to have a point???? :neener: :D

Well If I have a point, it's that polishing the hand isn't likely to solve the problem if the bolt is misbehaving. Since a new cylinder is involved I suspect that the ball on the bolt may be too wide for the notches in the cylinder, but diagnosing these things over the Internet is always risky.

Another possibility is that this “cylinder wiggle” happens when the hammer is lowered from some position short of full-cock. In any case the Old Fuff can’t see how the cylinder can wiggle back and forth if it’s properly locked in place. Clearly something is amiss, but I’ll let the rest of you figure out what. All I know is what I read in the newspapers. :D

[sundance44s]

I beleive the key word here is ( decock) if that is a word ..In anycount ..I beleive what he was saying is that when he lets the hammer back down from full cock , with his thumb on the hammer to keep from dry fireing ...( boy I read alot into that didn`t I ? ) This is when it happens ..it happened to me on one of my new ones before ...In fact ...just for the heck of it , I just bought a new Pietta Remmie from Cabelas , That I haven`t really broken in yet ......And low and behold I have another one ..I slipped in my Kirst conversion cylinder and cocked it ....eased the hammer back down , and it turned about an 1/8 of an inch backward , as it released the lock up bolt . So he isn`t seeing things . Thats why when you buy a new conversion cylinder , the place you buy it will make the adjustments free of charge if you send them the gun and the cylinder . The factory cap and ball cylinder doesn`t do that ..just the conversion cylinder ...so the problem isn`t the gun ...it`s the cylinder ..In fact like I told him its the difference in the ratchets on the conversion cylinder .

[Old Fuff]

On the forward cycle of the hammer...

As the hammer rotates forward the cam on the hammer again contacts the tail of the bolt. But it is tapered, as is the bolt's tail, so the two should pass each other without disturbing the bolt's locked position - unless the bolt is incorrectly fitted, the parts are rough, or the bolt side of the bolt & trigger spring is either weak or broken.

If you remove the cylinder and cock & lower the hammer (decock if you will) you may see the bolt bounce when the hammer cam hits and passes it. If this happens you have a strong clue as to what is allowing the cylinder to wiggle.

Regardless of what the hand is doing, during the forward stoke of the hammer, a cylinder cannot move in either direction if it is locked by the bolt.

Also, as I previously mentioned, if the ball on the bolt (the part of the bolt that sticks up through the frame) is too wide for the notches in the conversion cylinder, it will never really be locked - and of course the cylinder can move.

[sundance44s]

Doc ...Good luck ..I just finished fixing mine ..6 times in and out with the hand shapeing very slowly ..You didn`t say if your conversion cylinder was a R&D or Kirst ...Mine is a Kirst , so I left the backing plate off and just put the cylinder in so I could see how the hand was contacting the ratchets , the ratchets being on the cylinder part of the Kirst cylinder ...this would be hard to do on a R&D ,,I have one of those too but it`s for a Uberti and the ratchets are on the backing plate instead of the cylinder ....any how ..alls well that ends well ...now the conversion cylinder works proper and the cap and ball does too ....Now I know why they charge so much for the conversion cylinders ...they need to get paid for fitting them to alot of pistols ...out of 6 Remmies this is the second one I`ve had with this problem out of the box .I`m really tired of looking at the thing right now , and am suppose to go shooting in the morning ...phewwwwwwww ..

Old Fluff ....there`s no lock up problem when this happens ...both mine were locking up tight as a drum ......and still do after me fitting the hand to the conversion cylinder .......maybe it`s a mistery ..but it`s fixed now ...line up and lock up with the cab & ball cylinder didn`t change at all ..I think it`s something to do with Pietta`s poor fitting of the internals ...I`ve never had this problem with a Uberti Remington .....Both have been Pietta ...Pietta is doing much better on the out side fit and finish ...but quality control on the innards is still lacking .

[sundance44s]

Doc ..something I might add , after fixing another one ...if your conversion cylinder is the KIRST type ..look at the ratches on it ..shaped more like a spur or star instead of cut outs like on the stock cylinder ..the offending material on the hand isn`t so much the tip ...it`s the top of the hand , The hand won`t go into the slots on the spur like it should because of this ...so the extra material here is catching the end tip of the spur and causeing the upward pressure on the cylinder while it`s at full cock .Ease the hammer down and this pressure is relieved and causeing the cylinder to have this backwards motion . I went real slow stoneing this one , because I don`t have an extra hand right now , to intall if I messed this one up ...I had 2 extra`s when I fixed mmy first one , and it was a lot easyer ..I wasn`t worried about takeing off to much material at all .

[Doc Rizzi]

All Fixed...Thanks

[Doc Rizzi]

The top of the hand was to broad for the R&D star. I measured that I took off .003 worth of material and the "backwards rotation" behavior ceased. I have a few extra hands here, so I wasn't too worried about taking off too much, except for the time it was going to take to fit a new one. I wouldn't be so particular except that I use these for CAS. Thank you everyone. All was good input.

[oldelm]

Nice call, Sundance! ;)