Help - O' Wise Ones!!!!

:banghead:OK- I FOLLOWED THE SAGE AND WISE ADVICE I HAD RECEIVED FROM THRVAS I PREPARED TO SHOOT MY 3RD MODEL DRAGOON FOR THE FIRST TIME. PYRODEX P, .454 BALL (WHICH FELL IN CYLINDER BORE, THEN WHEN I SEATED IT IT DIDN'T SEEM TO GO VERY FAR, BUT WAS A TIGHT FIT I THOUGHT), BEFORE DOING THIS I SHOT 6 CCI #10 CAPS THRU THE GUN TO CLEAN OUT ANY OIL, AS SUGGESTED, SO WHEN I WENT TO SHOOT THE GUN FOR THE FIRST TIME, NOTHING HAPPENED. ALL 6 HOLES DIDN'T FIRE. SO I PULLED BACK THE TRIGGER TO TRY THEM AGAIN, AND ONLY THE CAPS FIRED! NO BANG, NO LEAD CAME OUT. SEEMS TO ME THAT'S NOT RIGHT. THANK GOD INDIANS WEREN'T ATTACKING THAT TIME! ME GET SCALPUMED!!!!

WHERE DID I GO WRONG, O' WISE ONES:(??

NOTE: READ ON THR THE CABELA'S 1858 ARMY WAS ON SALE SO I BOUGHT ONE OF THOSE TOO. .454 BALL SEEMS TOO LOOSE AND .457 BALL IS HARD TO RAM DOWN BUT DOES SEAT TIGHT. THAT ONE DIDN'T GO BANG EITHER!!

it is probably a real good thing the gun didn't fire.. STOP, STOP right now and make sure that gun is empty! You didn't say. If it isn't don't water it like a mad man either, uncap it.

This is what is really wrong! and why I want you to wait for a guy here that owns one of these guns! There are better guys than me!

""".454 BALL (WHICH FELL IN CYLINDER BORE,""" What this says all over it is MULTIPLE DISCHARGE , in this case probably all 6 at the same instant!

The balls are way to small! A proper ball will shear a perfet circle off of it when you ram it. That is a fair seal but still not enough, and you must pick and choose a greae for over the ball, of which there are several.

I own a 1860 colt army clone and a ruger old army , but don't own what you have and so I have no idea what it should shoot as in the size, but I know if the balls fall in they are way too small!

I would tell what the present condition of the gun is next if I were you..

Sometimes new Ubertis ( I've noticed anyway...) have such tight fit that the hammer rubs the walls of the frame notch and loses it's momentum. This would create a weak strike on the caps, which is one possible reason they wouldn't fire until the 2nd time.
Also, if the caps are too tight and not seating properly, then your first time through was just seating the caps, then they all fired on the second time.
This still doesn't explain why the powder didn't take. I wouldn't use pyrodex as a paper weight myself, some swear by it, but it's corrosive, toxic, higher ignition ( less reliable ) and likely more hygroscopic than BP due the the sugar fuels. Pyrodex only exists due to regulations on BP. I'd recommend 777 by Hodgdon or real BP. Only time I've ever had a chamber not fire was when using some pyrodex P. a pound of it soon got turned into a fireball on the lawn.
Put some grease over the balls if that cylinder is still loaded and take it one shot at a time. Cap the whole cylinder, but shoot one and check to make sure grease is still sealing the chambers. It should fire unless those nipples are still clogged.
.454 should be fine in the Uberti Dragoons. I use .457 but will be switching to .454 this year. .457 load hard and if it's anything but pure lead, they don't load at all.
Remington caps seem to be the best cap brand too. Softer cups, longer cap walls and 100% reliable. Can't say the same for RWS or CCI. #10 rems fit the uberti perfectly and are a hotter cap than other brands.

The Italian repros have cylinder chambers of varying sizes. You may need a .457 round ball for proper loading. (actually that's good since bore diameters are usually .455 or so)I have an Uberti 2nd model Dragoon with .455 chamber diameters. A .454 ball falls into the chamber without any friction. This is dangerous (as other have pointed out) and may result in a multiple discharge. (Bad) When you seat a ball, a small ring of lead should be left behind on the cylinder face showing that the ball has properly sealed the chamber.

Yup, Pyrodex is crap. But if that's all you have you may need to find some #11 magnum caps from CCI or RWS. These will help to light the reluctant substitute powder. If there was substantial amounts of oil in the nipple/chamber, simply popping one cap may not have cleared the chamber enough for loading. Pull the loads and clean and dry the chambers and try again with larger balls--

If the caps fired and no bang it wasn't the fault of the lead you loaded. If the powder didn't go off it wasn't getting a spark. Any chance you have a lot of grease in the nipples?

Got a nipple pick?

I agree, something is clogged at the nipple end. I didn't want to get to far, since his round ball are to small.

One guy saying so hasn't got the impact of 15 guys saying so.

If the chambers are .455, and the balls are 454, this is not a safe load at all. .457 should REPLACE all the .454's. That would shear off a lead ring 0.001 all the way around.

Clean the nipples. They may be plugged up with grease and that'll stop the spark from getting into the chamber and igniting the powder.

Please use lower case letters when you type. It's more courteous that way.

Gentlemen - the clue is that it is the first time he shot the gun, and he said nothing about cleaning the gun before he took it out to shoot. If it's a new gun the nipples will probably be clogged with rust preventative (a grease along the lines of cosmoline). It's likely the chambers are also contaminated with it, and when the powder and ball were rammed home the residual clogged up the nipples some more. The ENTIRE gun should be cleaned with a good bp solvent before firing it the first time, including the internal action parts, although they are not as important as the nipples, chamber and bore.

I wouldn't use pyrodex as a paper weight myself, some swear by it, but it's corrosive, toxic, higher ignition ( less reliable ) and likely more hygroscopic than BP due the the sugar fuels. Pyrodex only exists due to regulations on BP. I'd recommend 777 by Hodgdon or real BP. Only time I've ever had a chamber not fire was when using some pyrodex P. a pound of it soon got turned into a fireball on the lawn.

I've never heard that Pyrodex was made from a sugar fuel. Is there a source for that statement?
I have read that American Pioneer and Pinnacle powders are sucrose based.
Pyrodex is known to usually produce more velocity than BP in C&B revolvers and I've never personally found Pyrodex P to be hygroscopic. But I have read that ffffg BP certainly is, and will turn into soup in flintlock pans that are exposed to high humidity.
I wonder if BP is also toxic if someone ate enough of it? :)

I wonder if BP is also toxic if someone ate enough of it?

Dunno, but I'd stay away from the jalapenos for a while afterward.:what:

Just about anything is toxic if you ingest enough. BP is all food grade ingredients though, Charcoal, Sulfur, Salt Peter ( KNO3 ). I've heard soldiers would season there meat with BP for the salt and flavor.
Most BP substitutes are sugar/gluconic acid based, this includes all of Hogdons substitutes. Even my 777, which I do like, clumps up and is hygroscopic, as long as sugar is the fuel, it will be. I don't use it fast enough, because I opt for BP most of the time. Substitutes all use KCLO4 ( potassium perchlorate ) as the oxidizer. I'm not a chemist, but I'd think the residues would be some type or chloric acid once burnt. BP will give you sulfuric acid if you leave it too long, so it just comes down to cleaning once you're done shooting.
The smell of pyrodex smoke always bothered me and 777 isn't much better. They smell like they're bad for you....BP smells like fire and sulfur, neither are too harmful.
I really question whether substitutes came about to be cleaner, or just because the gov over regulated real black powder for shipping and storage. I've found that BP cleans up the easiest and aside from 777 and is the least corrosive of Pyrodex, pinnicle or pioneer.
Here's a chuckhawks page on 777;
http://www.chuckhawks.com/triple_seven.htm

Yeah, I was in the Marines for years and when they didn't need us to kill somebody, they kept us in this big closed in cage that looked like a dog kennel. Once a day they'd come by and throw several pounds of raw meat in there to feed us. Sometimes they'd season it up with gunpowder to make us mean and make our eyes get all bloodshot and feral looking....!!!!!!!

STOP :what:

What you need to do is to take the gun apart so you can get the cylinder out.
Take the caps off.
Turn the cylinder openings down. Gently tap with a rubber mallet to let the balls fall back out.
If they do not fall back out, then take your nipple wrench, which is a tool you should have, and take off the nipples. Try to shake the powder out.
Now find something that will fit through the holes where the nipples screw into an knock the balls out.

As somebody else said, if the balls fall in, you have a recipe for a mulitple discharge. When you load the gun, a small ring of lead should shave off the balls. This means that the ball is sealing the rest of the chamber where the powder is from the flash that would come with a shot.

Now that your cylinder is empty, look at the nipples. Do they have grease in them as somebody else here said? Are the nipples actually bored through that you can see light on the other side (don't laugh, some aren't). If not, you need to get a wire-size drill, about a #73, and drill the hole or open it up, or better yet, get new replacement nipples.

Now check the hammer fall as somebody else here said. See if it is actually running on the sides of the frame by gently lowering it and feeling to see if you can feel resistance.

While you have the gun apart like this, now would be a good time to take it apart and familiarize yourself with the internal workings and maybe put some gun grease on them to help smooth things.

The open cylinder Colt replicas are very easy guns to work on, shoot and clean. First and foremost though, make sure the balls you use don't cause you to lose the balls you use.:eek:

The Doc is out now. :cool:

NOTE: READ ON THR THE CABELA'S 1858 ARMY WAS ON SALE SO I BOUGHT ONE OF THOSE TOO. .454 BALL SEEMS TOO LOOSE AND .457 BALL IS HARD TO RAM DOWN BUT DOES SEAT TIGHT. THAT ONE DIDN'T GO BANG EITHER!!

I'd be checking the .454 balls. Sounds like you might have got a box that is marked incorrectly. Has nothing to do with why it did'nt fire though.

OK- I FOLLOWED THE SAGE AND WISE ADVICE I HAD RECEIVED FROM THRVAS I PREPARED TO SHOOT MY 3RD MODEL DRAGOON FOR THE FIRST TIME. PYRODEX P, .454 BALL (WHICH FELL IN CYLINDER BORE, THEN WHEN I SEATED IT IT DIDN'T SEEM TO GO VERY FAR, BUT WAS A TIGHT FIT I THOUGHT), BEFORE DOING THIS I SHOT 6 CCI #10 CAPS THRU THE GUN TO CLEAN OUT ANY OIL, AS SUGGESTED, SO WHEN I WENT TO SHOOT THE GUN FOR THE FIRST TIME, NOTHING HAPPENED. ALL 6 HOLES DIDN'T FIRE. SO I PULLED BACK THE TRIGGER TO TRY THEM AGAIN, AND ONLY THE CAPS FIRED! NO BANG, NO LEAD CAME OUT. SEEMS TO ME THAT'S NOT RIGHT. THANK GOD INDIANS WEREN'T ATTACKING THAT TIME! ME GET SCALPUMED!!!!



I would advise you to check the condition of the Pyrodex you are using. If all the caps fired fine but the powder didn't, I would immediately suspect something is wrong with the powder. Check the Pyrodex, make sure it is not waterlogged, inert, or otherwise "dead".

And yes, the frontiersmen of the 19th century had to do and practice a lot to keep their hair. One little mistake while you are loading/preparing, you might end up as the one the ladies would reject at the ball later on.

Sounds like clogged nipples to me.

I have never had to fire more than one cap through a cylinder to prep it for loading powder and ball. I have also never had a cylinder not fire like the OP describes.

Yep, sounds like clogged nipples.

Thanks Doc.... The fact that this gun doesn't fire is a damnned good thing...

All good information and I thank you all for responding. I will try it all and let you guys know what finally worked. And I am typing in lower casr Mr. Moderator.

Temucla is too far for me. However if you ever want to come out to angeles ranges hit me up. I can help. Here is one thing i do which has never let me down.

The night or day i want to go shooting i take the cylinders off my revolvers. Then take an old tooth brush to the back of the nipples as they will be greased. I then take Qtips. Yep Qtips. Dip them in alcohal and clean out each cylinder. Then take a Toothpick and dip it in alcohal and clean in each nipple. When i think im done. I drop a couple of drops of Alcohal down each cylinder chamber. Then hold a lighter under the nipples to burn out the alcohal. This only takes about 5 minutes. But gurantees a sure fire on the first try. When i get to the range i still pop a cap on every nipple.

NOW

When ever you have a fail to fire. Take your nipple pick and put it down the back of each nipple. Rotate it really good to loosen up the powder in the chambers. Then put the cylinder back on you should be ok.


NOW again

After im done at the range and after cleaning. Everything everywhere gets coated with a light coat of oil.

Scrat ..I thought I was the only one too cheap to waste caps poping them on empty chambers ...I`ve been doing the alcohol Q tip thing too since the price of caps has gone up so much . Works good I do it in the mornings before I leave to go shooting ..haven`t had a miss fire yet .

hahahahah Great minds think alike.

never had a misfire. Works really good. Except the time we ran out of rubbing alcohol and had to use Jack Daniels. Funny having a WALKER smell like JD

never had a misfire. Works really good. Except the time we ran out of rubbing alcohol and had to use Jack Daniels. Funny having a WALKER smell like JD :what:

What's the matter? No NIGHT TRAIN EXPRESS handy that you had to use expensive liquor?

Oh the humanity! Oh the pain! :evil:

The Doc is out and really having fun now. :cool:

Night train express.

All i carry is Jack Daniels
then there is Gentelmans Jack


SO i had to go Jack

There is also genuine Georgia Moon corn whiskey,
(shine on Georgia Moon) guaranteed to be less than 30 day's old....

Georgia Moon corn whiskey,

better be a real fan of unoaked sour mash to drink this stuff. For about the same price here you can buy whisky that actually tastes good.

I am gonna go on the cheap train too. I am taking this advice on alcohol q-tipped inside the cyliner instead of wasting a cap.

All good comments.

Yes, clean the chambers. You can blow the packing oil out of the nipples by firing caps, but you're blowing it right into the chambers. Clean the whole gun if it's new. Use non-petroleum lubes, and lots of it, as stated here on THR, and you'll have no fouling issues either, but the insides of the chambers have to be clean and dry (actually, I coat them lightly with olive oil or Bore Butter after cleaning and I don't get misfires).

Clean chambers + clean nipples + good powder + properly fit and sealed balls + properly fit caps = bang. Instant bang, Just like a cartridge gun.

That being said, my Pietta Colt has a softer mainspring than my Pietta '58 Remy, and after a lot of shooting the Colt will start to have caps fail due to light strikes (I assume the fouling is causing the hammer to slow down a bit, as you can feel it scraping on the frame when it's really dirty). The Remy has a tighter mainspring and never fails.

dont know if this has been fully resolved, but nobody asked if he put POWDER in the gun.

Did you put any powder under the ball?

Lacquer Thinner really cleans good with a Q-Tip. I use it on all my internal parts and cylinder.