Bushmaster response to Bushmaster ACR


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Desert Scorpion
March 13, 2008, 06:52 PM
Thank you for inquiring about the new Bushmaster ACR rifle!



At this point in time we are in the testing stage of the rifle. We are hoping to have pricing by the middle of May, delivery currently scheduled in the late 2nd or early 3rd quarter this year. Final initial versions have not been determined at this point, it will be offered in 5.56mm with black coloration in the beginning. We have not determined other colors or other calibers at this point.

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Coronach
March 13, 2008, 07:59 PM
Maaaaaan...c'mon. This needs to get out and not suck. C'mon!

Mike

ny32182
March 13, 2008, 08:31 PM
Two weeks! :D

iamkris
March 13, 2008, 08:41 PM
No doubt. They need to get this thing out, then quickly follow it with a barrel, bolt and mags in 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel...or both ;)

Oh, and it can't suck, either.

Coronach
March 13, 2008, 08:56 PM
Two weeks! :DNo, no, no. This is not Robarm's rollout of the XCR. ;)

Mike

Coronach
March 13, 2008, 08:57 PM
Yet. ;)

ny32182
March 13, 2008, 08:58 PM
We shall see.

iamkris
March 13, 2008, 09:48 PM
The best thing this rifle has going for it as it pertains to production is that Bushmaster will be manufacturing it. They have experience with this basic type of rifle and won't have to go through as long of a learning curve as another company would...such as Robinson Arms, Ares, KelTec (with the RFB they'll have a learning curve moving to a "big" rifle platform...lots different than producing the Sub2000), so their estimates of production ramp / timeline are slightly more believeable.

But in the end...we shall see.

Desert Scorpion
March 14, 2008, 07:08 PM
I want one NOW!!!!!!:cuss:

Wes Janson
March 14, 2008, 10:59 PM
I predict August.

Gaiudo
March 15, 2008, 01:50 AM
put me down for one in dark earth, with long- and mid-sized fore-ends, and the folding and the SPR stock. Oh, and as SOON as they start cranking out the AK lowers.... yeah one of those too.


That should just give me enough time to start saving for a Massoud!

Coronach
March 15, 2008, 01:52 AM
*grumble*

Masada...Massoud...

So many guns, so little money. Hopefully there's not a lack of time, too.

Mike

LoadedDrum
March 15, 2008, 07:46 AM
With Bushmaster making these things, will we still be able send in a barrel to have it converted for use with the ACR? Or will we be stuck with the barrels Bushmaster makes?

Coronach
March 15, 2008, 02:59 PM
My guess is that if the ACR takes off, barrel makers will start churning out barrels in multiple configurations. The real question is whether or not there is a patent on the barrel or just on the attachment mechanism. IIRC, the barrel was just a standard AR barrel with a ring pressed on. I'm not sure, though.

Mike

taliv
March 15, 2008, 04:04 PM
or alternate barrels will be as available as alternate stocks for the M93b

heard this song before...

Soybomb
March 15, 2008, 05:23 PM
My current prediction is that the folding stock is not going to be made availabel out of the box and we'll have to buy that as an add on. If that turns out to the base the case there will be one less buyer out of principle...as long as my will power holds up at least :D

Feanaro
March 17, 2008, 05:40 AM
Principles be durned, I'm gettin' one if it's bright pink.

Click Click Boom
March 17, 2008, 11:39 PM
I have a feeling that Bushmaster will "Screw the pooch" on this one. What you are going to get is Massada Lite and watered down.

The LMT gas piston gun does everything the masada does and is available now.(Well I have seen internet claims of taking delivery but have yet to see one in person)

Coronach
March 17, 2008, 11:49 PM
Really? You can fold the stock?

Feanaro
March 18, 2008, 12:09 AM
The LMT gas piston gun does everything the masada does

Besides having a charging handle that I like. And fully ambi controls. And a bolt release/hold within reach of your right finger. And being lighter. And lacking the buffer tube that prevents the use of a folding stock. And... ;)

Not trying to sound like a Magpul fanboy here but the improvements, if they are delivered and don't suck, go beyond adding a gas piston. Now, some of the improvements are available as options for the AR-15, which makes the ACR less attractive to those who already own an AR. But there are still lots of people who don't have an AR.

ny32182
March 18, 2008, 12:44 AM
XCR does everything the Masada does...

...plus one *key* advantage: You can actually buy it. Lets see the Masada top that, eh?? :scrutiny:

ny32182
March 18, 2008, 12:46 AM
Also, I've really wanted an LMT piston upper ever since the rumors of them started, but last I heard, they were "being delivered" with a ~20 week wait starting at the shot show in February...? I guess that would put them mid summer sometime unless something delays them.

Has any actual customer seen one yet?

Coronach
March 18, 2008, 01:58 AM
The LMT gas piston gun does everything the masada doesReally? You can fold the stock?Besides having a charging handle that I like. And fully ambi controls. And a bolt release/hold within reach of your right finger. And being lighter. And lacking the buffer tube that prevents the use of a folding stock. And......and allow multi-caliber usage. And tool-less quick change barrels.

I'm really not seeing much similarity.

Now, this assumes that we'll get the Masada that Magpul intended and that it will function properly. I would agree that an AR-15 of any flavor in the hand would beat vaporware or unfulfilled promises in the bush. But if this thing performs as advertised, the only things close will be the SCAR and the XCR.

Not, mind you, that I'll be selling my ARs anytime soon, even if it does work as advertised. They'll still work just fine.

Mike

Coronach
March 18, 2008, 02:02 AM
XCR does everything the Masada does...

...plus one *key* advantage: You can actually buy it. Lets see the Masada top that, eh?? IIRC, you need a tool to change the barrels, the XCR is supposed to be heavier, and the ergonomics of the Masada are supposed to be marginally better.

None of those are huge differences. However, they're enough to at least make me pause until the Masada comes out before I decide which one to buy. The XCR could be better. Or it may not be. I dunno. We have to wait and see.

Gaiudo
March 18, 2008, 02:34 AM
What I want to know, is whether there is anyone (distributor, FFL, etc.) on THR who can put together a good group buy, so that we can try and avoid the massive price gouging that's almost bound to happen over the first year of sales. I don't think I want to drop 2k on this rifle if its MSRPing for 1.2k-1.5k.

Feanaro
March 18, 2008, 06:58 AM
The XCR is being produced by a small company, the ACR is being produced by Bushmaster. Possibly a big difference in the level of support and the likelyhood of the ACR sticking around. Also, the XCR doesn't have an ambi controls or charging handle.

Plus, the ACR isn't out. Which means you can't be disappointed by reality. ;)

Click Click Boom
March 18, 2008, 11:56 AM
Just because Bushmaster is backing it doesn't mean they will support it. I recall there AR10 disaster and a short lived Bullpup Rifle(M17?). Im not saying that Robinson Arms has a better track record. But Bushmaster has dropped the ball several times.

To me the tooless barrel is a down side. I want something a little more secure than tiny rachet holding my barrel on.

Massada isnt the first rifle to have a tooless quick change barrel. The AUG has quick detatch barrels that are even more simple to remove than Massada

trinydex
March 18, 2008, 04:58 PM
how does the xcr not have ambi controls?

bolt release is ambi which is already more ambi than most ars

you mean the mag catch?

the charging handle is easier to manipulate left handed than the traditional ar...

Coronach
March 18, 2008, 05:42 PM
the charging handle is easier to manipulate left handed than the traditional ar...Yeah, but just because it can be manipulated by going under or over doesn't make it ambi. By the same argument my AK is ambi as well. The Masada/ACR's charging handle actually is ambi.

Mike

PS Still not a big deal to me. I'm a righty.

Coronach
March 18, 2008, 05:47 PM
To me the tooless barrel is a down side. I want something a little more secure than tiny rachet holding my barrel on.We'll see. That certainly falls under the heading of "does it work as advertised".Massada isnt the first rifle to have a tooless quick change barrel. The AUG has quick detatch barrels that are even more simple to remove than MassadaAnd? No one said it was the first to do any one of the things it does. It's just the first to put them all in one package. If the AUG offered a full length rail on top, quad rails on the forearm, caliber changes, folding stock adjustable for cheek height and LOP, and ambidextrous use/controls, this might be an argument. But it doesn't. Nothing does, except the SCAR (forbidden fruit for now) and the XCR.

Mike

ny32182
March 18, 2008, 06:17 PM
Don't get me wrong, I hope the ACR comes out, and I hope its a great rifle. There is still a lot of uncertainty about it though... its just all a lot of speculation until a few get into the hands of actual shooters and we see how they perform.

Coronach
March 18, 2008, 06:25 PM
Yes and no. Most of the specs are known. Debating these is relatively useful. A few of the specs are not known (price, whether or not is will ship in a configuration we want, what different caliber offerings will be made available, barrels, etc), that's less useful. No one knows about accuracy, reliability, or durablity- and these are critical.

I'm a fan of the concept. I have no idea if I'll like the actual product or not.

Mike

Click Click Boom
March 18, 2008, 08:31 PM
Well, One could say the Masada/ACR doesn't have any of thoes fetures. Until Very recently the XCR wasn't caliber interchangeable. Bushmaster says its only going to release the 5.56 version and then "down the road" a 6.8SPC ect... But you can't buy it yet and they may or may not have plans to offer it with all the cool fetures that made people want one. Many people on the Masada bandwagon are counting there Chickens before they have hatched.

They have already delayed or cut three things from the ACR.
1.The well thought out folding/adjustable stock.
2.AK Lower and caliber conversions.
3.2 colors, Green and Tan.
They may very well come out with these down the road. But Not soon and its looking like for more money.

The AUG does have a quad rail available and you could say it can change calibers if you consider .222 remington worth changing.

Many people are saying the ACR is the best thing since sliced bread. But I can have a peice of sliced bred now. I hope the ACR is as Magpul wanted it. But Im having a hard time believing that gun designed by a company that in my experiance has a 50% product failure rate will be that great. (half of the magpul mags I have tried fail to lock the bolt back on the last round)

trinydex
March 18, 2008, 11:07 PM
there was one shot show reviewer that said that he liked the feel of the scar l more.

(there is of course someone that said the contra, but...) is anyone waiting for scar-l to take off?

ny32182
March 19, 2008, 12:13 AM
I do want the FN SCAR more than any of the other current vaporware out there.

Coronach
March 19, 2008, 12:38 AM
Well, One could say the Masada/ACR doesn't have any of thoes fetures.True, but I don't think anyone is arguing that. Bushmaster says its only going to release the 5.56 version and then "down the road" a 6.8SPC ect... But you can't buy it yet and they may or may not have plans to offer it with all the cool fetures that made people want one.True, and I agree this is a major concern. If they fail to offer the ACR with all the nifty things that make the design so cool, then it will be, by definition, less cool. I'm cautiously optimistic that Bushmaster gets this, though.Many people on the Masada bandwagon are counting there Chickens before they have hatched.I think if you ask anyone who is cheering for the Masada/ACR that they will agree with you that the implementation is key.They have already delayed or cut three things from the ACR.
1.The well thought out folding/adjustable stock.Not true, last I heard. They were offering it in two different SKUs, an "entry gun" with folding stock and a rifle with fixed stock. I just hope the entry gun is not an SBR, which would suck (from a legal standpoint, anyway). It looked like it may be that way at the start, though this 411 may not be current.
2.AK Lower and caliber conversions.Delayed, but Robarm did this as well, and it makes sense to offer it in 5.56 as "standard" and then sell the add-ons later. No one was expecting it to ship multi-caliber at first at that price point, though many people were hoping to at least have the options available. Still, if the choice is ACR in 5.56 now and options for other stuff later or ACR in multicaliber format next year, I know exactly which one I would choose.3.2 colors, Green and Tan.Yawn. I'm certain they'll offer other colors later. That's a pretty simple fix. Bushmaster is trying to keep the rollout as simple (read: expedited) as possible. Faced with the complexity of tooling up for a new product and delivery in 1 quarter, I'd probably do the same.They may very well come out with these down the road. But Not soon and its looking like for more money.Well, of course it's for more money. You're getting more stuff (except maybe color).

Many people are saying the ACR is the best thing since sliced bread. But I can have a peice of sliced bred now.I don't think anyone is saying this. I think a lot of people are saying it has the potential to be that. Big difference.I hope the ACR is as Magpul wanted it. But Im having a hard time believing that gun designed by a company that in my experiance has a 50% product failure rate will be that great. (half of the magpul mags I have tried fail to lock the bolt back on the last round)You need to send 'em back, if that's the case. Were they early manufacture? They first group of pmags had some acknowledged problems.

Mike

nwilliams
March 19, 2008, 12:42 AM
I can't wait for this gun!!

This is going to be my big purchase of the year, I've already started saving. I haven't been this excited about a gun release in years!

Release the darn gun already!!!:cuss:

Soybomb
March 19, 2008, 12:49 AM
Not true, last I heard. They were offering it in two different SKUs, an "entry gun" with folding stock and a rifle with fixed stock. I just hope the entry gun is not an SBR, which would suck (from a legal standpoint, anyway). It looked like it may be that way at the start, though this 411 may not be current.
Magpul was talking about it a while back and I tried to pin them down for information but their silence spoke the loudest to me.

http://www.ak47.net/lite/topic.html?b=2&f=124&t=158910

Originally Posted By maybz:
Not to worry guys. As previously stated, there will be three stocks released for the ACR. Fixed, folding and precision adjustable. The fixed stock is the newest addition to the line.


The one thing I haven't seen confirmed though is that the folding stock will be available out of the box on the 16" rifle. Sig did that to people with their rifle and I think there is some concern that bushmaster will being doing the same.
Based on other similar threads and magpul's talk of modularity I believe we're going to have to purchase the folding stock after as an option. Thats pure speculation and I hope I'm wrong.

stubbicatt
March 19, 2008, 07:38 AM
Both the ACR and the SCAR are neat rifles. The prices on these things is getting out of control. Realistically, these are $600 rifles, but demand has priced them through the ceiling.

Soybomb
March 19, 2008, 12:13 PM
Both the ACR and the SCAR are neat rifles. The prices on these things is getting out of control. Realistically, these are $600 rifles, but demand has priced them through the ceiling.
How do you figure? Its a struggle to get a barebones basic ar for $600 even with the huge supply of ar parts. Here we're talking about a feature packed rifle that I think I could spend just as much money on trying to build a comparable ar.

Gaiudo
March 19, 2008, 09:25 PM
But Im having a hard time believing that gun designed by a company that in my experiance has a 50% product failure rate will be that great. (half of the magpul mags I have tried fail to lock the bolt back on the last round)


:rolleyes:

Come on, lets get serious. What, did you buy two of them? Its a fairly irresponsible statement to say that their product has a 50% failure rate, without any sources or proof, and then use that as the basis for saying that their gun design shouldn't be trusted. If their P-Mags form any standard for the quality of the Masada/ACR design (which is a fallacious comparison in the first place, apples/oranges), we'll be extremely fortunate.

Click Click Boom
March 19, 2008, 10:19 PM
I have used many more than 2. They feed fine but half do not hold the bolt open on the last shot. Most of them do not drop free and one craked a feed lip.

They were of newer manufacture. Maybe I bought a bad run of mags? I have seen others with these problems and I know people who have never had a bad one.

I like amny of magpuls products. Just have had some bad luck with the PMags.

With the recent developements in the Masada/ACR I have gone from a I will get one to a I'll wait and see. The FN SCAR is starting to look like the better choice.

Coronach
March 19, 2008, 11:34 PM
I really like FN products (not a fan of the bullpup .223, but that's a preference issue, not a quality one), but I'm really wondering if we will ever see a civvie SCAR. If we do, great. It may well be even better than a best-case ACR. Or it may not.

Either way, I like the idea of more and more choices.

Mike

trinydex
March 20, 2008, 12:10 AM
m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=12055

m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=11702

for magpul pmags not dropping free (even late builds)

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