Anti-gun editorial at Oklahoma Community College


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romeo212000
March 14, 2008, 11:33 AM
I am a student here and was disgusted to read this in the paper when I went to class last night.

http://www.occc.edu/pioneer/Archives/March_10_2008/news1.html

"Guns on campus bill opposed by students, cops
Highlights
HB 2513 would allow ollege students to carry concealed weapons on campus.
Many students disagree with bill.
By Chris Lusk, Editor

A bill that would allow college students to carry concealed weapons on campus is on its way to the state House of Representatives for deliberation.

Although the bill’s author sees it as a plus, college officials are skeptical.

House Bill 2513 recently was approved 14-2 by the House Judiciary and Public Safety Committee, said Rep. Jason Murphey, R-Guthrie.

Murphey said he authored the bill following the Feb. 14 shootings that left six dead at Northern Illinois University.

He said the bill would allow students to protect themselves in case of an emergency situation.

“As long as students keep their weapons concealed, they would be able to go to class with them,” Murphey said.

He said another benefit of this bill would be that a potential shooter might think twice about entering a college campus.

“A shooter wouldn’t know who has a gun and who doesn’t,” Murphey said.

“We allow people to protect themselves on the street,” he said. “They should be allowed to protect themselves elsewhere, even on a college campus.”

Sophomore Ricky Brown, an avid hunter, said although he believes in the right to bear arms, schools are not the place for weapons.

“I own 12 different guns,” Brown said. “I love hunting, I love guns and I love the rights protected by the Second Amendment.

“But allowing students to carry weapons on campus is a recipe for disaster and illogical.”

OCCC President Paul Sechrist expressed his concerns with HB 2513.

He said while he recognizes the bill is intended to provide increased safety on campus, law enforcement experts oppose these efforts because students carrying concealed weapons to class could increase the risk to other students.

“For example, when officers arrive on an active shooter scene,” Sechrist said, “if students who are trying to be helpful also have their weapons drawn, the officers would not be able to distinguish between the dangerous person with a gun from the helpful students who also have guns.”

Other concerns include the potential accidental discharge of a weapon by a student, Sechrist said.

Safety and Security Director Ike Sloas said, that while he was not aware of the college’s official stance on the issue, he personally is against HB 2513.

“As a security officer, [HB 2513] would make responding to incidents very confusing,” Sloas said. “Most of the time you have to react in a matter of seconds.

“If you hear gunshots, arrive at the scene and find three people with weapons drawn, you would have to quickly determine who is the bad guy and who are the heroes.”

Sechrist said The Oklahoma Council of Presidents of Colleges and Universities has adopted a resolution opposing HB 2513.

“Following the advice of law enforcement experts and desiring to do everything I can to increase safety on campus,” Sechrist said. “I join with the other Oklahoma [college] Presidents opposing this bill.”

Both Sechrist and Sloas argued that other safety measures would be more constructive.

Sechrist said, in response to recent incidents, schools across the nation have enacted a number of initiatives to increase safety.

“We have begun requiring active shooter training for our safety officers,” he said.

“We have also added emergency warning capabilities to all areas of the campus, including classrooms.”

Students across OCCC also expressed their views on HB 2513.

English major Sherree Cantrell said allowing students to carry weapons at school makes sense in theory, but not in reality.

“I’m sure everyone sees the reason behind this bill,” Cantrell said. “As often as school shootings are happening, campus safety is a pressing issue and everyone wants to figure out what to do.

“There would be too many risks having people walking around armed.”

Freshman Isaac Daniels said he had not heard about HB 2513, but was surprised after hearing what the bill proposed.

“Are you serious?” Daniels said. “This seems like a no-brainer to me. Why are our elected officials even debating this? If everyone was carrying a gun at school, I’d drop out.”

Editor Chris Lusk can be reached at editor@occc.edu."


I was so disgusted with this editorial that I wrote this e-mail in reply.

Editor Chris Lusk,

I must say I am rather dissapointed in your editorial on the propsed bill that would allow students with concealed carry permits to protect themselves on campus. While I respect everyone's opinions I must say you presented a very one sided argument from both student's and teachers. You have no quotes from any students or school officials who feel that the proposed bill may be beneficial to the safety of those on campus. You headline reads "Guns on campus bill opposed by students, cops." I must say that none of those people speak for me as a student of OCCC and I'm certain there are a large number of other people whom that headline does not speak for.
Regardless of any arguments presented from one side or the other I encourage those to take this concept into consideration. Laws that prohibit citizens from carrying on colege campus will not prevent those people who are determined to commit a tragedy such as those at Virginia Tech and NIU from doing so. Recent history has already made that perfectly clear. If the laws had made a difference to those people, they would have never commited those horrible acts. But that fact of the matter is they did not care what laws were in place. And as recent history has also shown, too many times, law enforcement officials are all too late to prevent a tragedy alltogether. I can promise you though, those people who have considered and would consider committing such an act would think twice before coming to campus with weapons and intent to cause harm if they knew that students were allowed to protect themselves by carrying a concealed weapon with the proper training an permit. To answer your question concerning officers not knowing which peron is a good guy or bad guy, any responsible person who has completed the certification and training know that when law enforcement shows up, you put down your weapon very quickly. The bad guy won't do that. And if they do then you have accomplished the purpose of disarming the aggresor.

To put it simply. Those citizens who would take the measures to be certain they are within the boundries of the law by attaining the proper training and certification to carry a means to protect themselves are not the ones we as a society need to be concerned with. It is those people who have no regard for the law, and are in fact fueled on by the knowledge that there is very likely no one who can stop them before they cause a horrible tragedy. I hope you will take the time to give equal coverage to both sides of a story before printing one on such a controversial issue.

Roman Carothers

Let me know what you guys think. Did I handle this correctly thus far? Is there anything else I can do. Also, if you want to write him as well feel free to do so. My only request is that we keep it civil and intelligent. I think it would be good for him to know that there are a number of people out there he does not speak for. I am sick of this one sided liberal view that is being forced into young people's heads by the school system.

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Rachen
March 14, 2008, 11:50 AM
Looks like an anti has way too much spare time on their hands.......And besides, these people get their sources from Brady, etc.......very tainted "information" sources.

Ske1etor
March 14, 2008, 11:53 AM
This is what I don't understand about their whole argument. Every time this topic comes up the same line gets thrown around. "What happens when the cops show up and there are X people with firearms drawn?"

Will people never learn? There hasn't been one, I repeat ONE single school shooting where the police arrived and STOPPED the threat. Period.

Secondly, do they honestly believe that in a situation like that the person or persons legally carrying a firearm are just going to stand there and argue with the criminal? I don't think of concealed carry permit holders as peace officers, nor do I think any one of them would ever attempt to "Fix" the situation without firing a shot. If there is someone in a school shooting a concealed carry holder would aim to stop the threat at all costs. Not attempt to mediate the situation.

Also, there are already 11 college campuses in the US that allow concealed carry. I believe last time I checked it was a total of 60 semesters and not a single problem. Nobody has spotted a concealed firearm, nobody has had to draw a firearm but more importantly no criminal has entered the halls of those colleges with a firearm and shot anyone.

The simple fact is that gun control isn't about guns, its about control.

I know I'm preaching to the choir but anyways.... /rant.

chrlefxtrt
March 17, 2008, 11:32 AM
“For example, when officers arrive on an active shooter scene,” Sechrist said, “if students who are trying to be helpful also have their weapons drawn, the officers would not be able to distinguish between the dangerous person with a gun from the helpful students who also have guns.”

The law abiding citizen would be easily distinguished by the fact that he wasn't shooting people at random. He might even be behind cover of some sort. I am also willing to bet he won't be in "fatigues, and have a backpack full of ammo (well I would :D). That is not a very valid arguement. If campus police/security cannot distinguish between who is good and who is bad, they really should not have the job they do (just my opinion as a reserve LEO and a campus security supervisor)

Elm Creek Smith
March 17, 2008, 11:08 PM
I LIKE this guy! A response from a Norman police officer to a Tulsa World anti-concealed carry on campus editorial (the editorial is at the top of he page):

http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectID=61&articleID=20080303_7_A15_hGuns11047

16. 3/3/2008 3:08:38 PM, Tim Tucker, Norman
I'm a cop in Norman. The"Frat Boys" the author speaks of are all under 21 and not able to apply for a CCW permit. OU campus has dozens if not hundreds of young men and women who have recently returned from Military duty where they were armed 24/7 for a year in the combat zones of SW Asia. To prevent these responsible citizens from having the choice to protect themselves is misguided and foolish. No matter where you are in the world, no matter your race or religion, there is only one antidote to an armed bad guy and that is an armed good guy. We see across the nation almost weekly what wishful thinking gets us, more helpless innocent people murdered.

It is a fact that 95% of all police responses nationwide are in excess of 5 minutes. Win, lose, or draw the outcome is final for a student on Oklahoma's campuses within seconds of coming face to face with an active shooter.

The police are coming to draw a chalk outline around someone's body. Deciding to allow law abiding citizens with CCW permits to carry on campus is the only way for those persons to be able to stop violent criminal attack and affect the outcome.

Our most basic human right is that of self defense. The author puts forward the notion that "crazed people" don't think things through. I wonder why there has never been an active shooter at a Fraternal Order of Police convention or a Gun Show? As long as we create "helpless people zones" on our nation's campuses the insanity will continue.

ArcherandShooter
March 19, 2008, 01:52 PM
No matter where you are in the world, no matter your race or religion, there is only one antidote to an armed bad guy and that is an armed good guy.

That is as well put as I have ever heard it said. Nicely done!

The Unknown User
March 20, 2008, 01:57 AM
I'm not sure why people think it would be difficult to discern an active shooter from one defending oneself.

One guy is standing up, shooting students. The others are shooting said shooter.

It's not that hard. Besides, the active shooter won't drop his gun, put his hands up, and say, "Don't shoot! I have a license!"

/palm face

Jimmy Dean
March 20, 2008, 02:04 AM
The LEOs always put forth the same arguments. What happens when we get there and there are 5 people standing around with guns drawn?

Ya know, I don't think that this is much of a problem whenever non-campus police show up to a scene where a CCW or OC'er drew their weapon to stop a crime. how is this going to be amazingly differant 300 yards away because it is in a classroom and not a house, or gas station?


Secondly, accidental discharges...yup....because my gun just randomly goes off while sitting in its holster when I carry it. Again, how is it any more likely to happen when a person is CCWing on campus then when they are CCWing at the gas station down the road?

Lastly, but htere is alcohol on campus!!!! IT IS THERE OFF CAMPUS AS WELL!!!!!! The same people that would be allowed to CCW on campus, that is the same guy that was standing behind you at the checkout at the grocery store, and hell, you didn't even know about it, so you sure as hell did not feel like you where in more danger with him standing there.

the people that would be allowed to CCW on campus are the same people that are already CCWing by the thousands off campus, while remaining within perfect respect of the law, not out gunning people down, why do they suddenly become stupid, muderous morons when they step onto a college campus?

mljdeckard
March 20, 2008, 02:29 AM
I miss going to college in Utah.

Feud
March 20, 2008, 03:31 AM
I'm not sure why people think it would be difficult to discern an active shooter from one defending oneself.

One guy is standing up, shooting students. The others are shooting said shooter.

Uh huh, so upon arrival which student should the Police focus on? The person dressed as a student shooting at a person dressed as a student, or the person dressed as a student shooting back at the person dressed as a student?

RoadkingLarry
March 20, 2008, 09:53 AM
When this bill was voted on in the Oklahoma House my Rep. (Chuck Hoskin, (D) House Rep Dist. 6) voted against it.

I had previoulsy contacted his office to ask him to support the bill.
When I read that he had voted NO I again contacted his office, this time via email and politley express my dissapointment and asked him to explain his reasons for voting no.

Well much to my surprise the man came to my house to answer my questions.

The first thing he said was that this was the first gun bill he had ever voted against. (still got to look into that claim but not hard to believe given his time in office and recent gun legislation)
He explained that he had been contacted by many college leaders asking him to vote against the bill.
He then trotted out the same tired "anti" reasons stated in the article above.
I refuted each in turn with the same standard answers and he had little to say to my answers.
We parted on pleasent terms but still in disagreement.

jlbraun
March 20, 2008, 10:02 AM
Uh huh, so upon arrival which student should the Police focus on? The person dressed as a student shooting at a person dressed as a student, or the person dressed as a student shooting back at the person dressed as a student?

I have asked this very question here. An Israeli replied. He said "We shot the one shooting at women and children. All of the civilian responders were shooting at just one guy. None of us shot each other."

romeo212000
March 20, 2008, 10:05 AM
Fued, How is that any different from any other situation where someone may have to draw to defend themselves. Do they focus on the person dressed as a person shooting a person? Or the person dressed as a person shooting a person. I thought I already addressed that in my letter to the editor. More than likely the fight will be over by the time the police get there and if it is not then the person trying to defend himself and other citizens around him will put down his weapon. The bad guy will not

BamaHoosier
March 20, 2008, 10:27 AM
I CCW'd when I was in college(Yeah,I started college later in life:D)and thankfully never had to pull my weapon forth.My,how times have changed on campus.I wear a PPW Badge with my CCW,and in most instances,that alone has deterred the few thugs I've encountered.Only one has seen my barrel pointed at his heart and he learned real quick!What scares me the most are the ones who STILL persist,even when a CCW holder has shown his weapon,or has it out,ready to fire.Are these people just brainless?

NG VI
March 20, 2008, 10:42 AM
BamaHoosier what's a PPW badge?

What a foolish group of people they found, but then I guess they can't get their heads out of theoryland and realize that even if, by some amazing coincidence, an officer was able to respond during an attack, that they will not have a birds-eye view, they aren't going to be able to see everyone at once, the people firing are not going to be standing out in the open if they aren't suicidal, and so the cops will probably be able to react to each individual one at a time. If they see someone crouched behind a pillar, yell to them and they react like a sensible human, and shooting still occurs, they can safely bet against that person being the active shooter.

Feud
March 20, 2008, 12:08 PM
I have asked this very question here. An Israeli replied. He said "We shot the one shooting at women and children. All of the civilian responders were shooting at just one guy. None of us shot each other."

That may be so, but one would think that, upon having someone shoot back at them, their attention would be turned to those who are actively trying to shoot them. So, unless the Police were there to witness the initial act they would have a difficult time determining who is who upon arrival.

Fued, How is that any different from any other situation where someone may have to draw to defend themselves.

I am actually in agreement with you on the matter, but I figured I'd take the devils advocacy.

romeo212000
March 20, 2008, 02:04 PM
So Im a little confused. Are we in agreement on this issue? Like I said the good guys will put down their weapons when the police show up. The bad guy will not.

Feud
March 20, 2008, 04:47 PM
So Im a little confused. Are we in agreement on this issue?

Are we not? What are you confused about?

romeo212000
March 20, 2008, 05:20 PM
Am I correct to assume you were just playing the devil's advocate?

Feud
March 20, 2008, 06:29 PM
Am I correct to assume you were just playing the devil's advocate?

Well, seeing as I already said that I was in post #16, I would think that would be a reasonable assumption.

The Canuck
March 20, 2008, 06:42 PM
It seems to me that in every incident where an active shooter (heretofor known as "coward") has been on the loose they have almost always stopped thier rampage (often via suicide) the instant they came to the realization that somebody could shoot back.

So with this in mind would it be unreasonable to consider the likelyhood of a protracted firefight slim, at best? Ergo there would most likely be nobody standing around guns drawn, or shooting at each other, by the time Police arrive. Would this make the whole concept of who to shoot a moot one for the responding Police?

Another thing, the only way I can even concieve of these detractors being able to utter these comments with a straight face is if they honestly beleive what they see in the movies, where the Police arrive in seconds and the shooting goes on for quite probably thousands of rounds. Perhaps we should ask them where they get these ideas about what happens in a gunfight?

The only time I have been involved in a situation where there was that much ammo discharged was in Company level oprations in the Infantry.

romeo212000
April 2, 2008, 07:37 PM
I was in my school today and say that they printed my letter to the editor. I was very surprised. Im not sure how many people read this college paper but it ended up on the second page. WHat do you guys think?

alsaqr
April 2, 2008, 08:29 PM
"No matter where you are in the world, no matter your race or religion, there is only one antidote to an armed bad guy and that is an armed good guy. We see across the nation almost weekly what wishful thinking gets us, more helpless innocent people murdered."

Very good statement.

This is a very hot topic here in OK right now. Several Cameron University profs have written their gloomy, whiney letters to the Lawton Constitution (Constipation).

History Prof
April 3, 2008, 12:19 AM
“For example, when officers arrive on an active shooter scene,” Sechrist said, “if students who are trying to be helpful also have their weapons drawn, the officers would not be able to distinguish between the dangerous person with a gun from the helpful students who also have guns.”

The law abiding citizen would be easily distinguished by the fact that he wasn't shooting people at random. He might even be behind cover of some sort. I am also willing to bet he won't be in "fatigues, and have a backpack full of ammo (well I would ). That is not a very valid arguement. If campus police/security cannot distinguish between who is good and who is bad, they really should not have the job they do (just my opinion as a reserve LEO and a campus security supervisor)


Actually, I'm with Sechrist on this one. In an active shooting situation, the police officers I know have told me that they are trained to shoot all threats. A man with a gun is a threat. But the answer here is simple: add to the CCW curriculum "what to do in an active shooter situation," and revise police training to take into consideration that CCW is now allowed on campus...

Further, as most college students are under 21, it seems to me that the folks who would be carrying would be faculty and older students..... (ETA: but that was stated in another post above...)

RoadkingLarry
April 3, 2008, 09:58 AM
I've seen it posted several times that there are 11 colleges nationwide that allow CCW. Does anyone have a verified list of these schools?

Daggertphi
April 3, 2008, 01:11 PM
I, too, live in Oklahoma and have spoken to campus officials in order to try to allow concealed carry on campus. Unfortunately, they have remained entirely closed-minded to the situation. I this random thought the other day that I have mixed feelings about:
Would it be entirely uncalled for (in the event that students WERE allowed to carry) that a course on campus security would be required to carry on campus. I'm not suggesting that all concealing students be deputized, only that they recieve basic triaining in communication and safety skills, even basic triage. This training might help to quiet the concerns of those that don't understand that we are the good guys.

FourTeeFive
April 3, 2008, 02:08 PM
“For example, when officers arrive on an active shooter scene,” Sechrist said, “if students who are trying to be helpful also have their weapons drawn, the officers would not be able to distinguish between the dangerous person with a gun from the helpful students who also have guns.”

I think it is preferable to the current situation, where you can identify the students as the ones laying on the ground bleeding...

archigos
April 3, 2008, 02:23 PM
I, too, live in Oklahoma and have spoken to campus officials in order to try to allow concealed carry on campus. Unfortunately, they have remained entirely closed-minded to the situation. I this random thought the other day that I have mixed feelings about:
Would it be entirely uncalled for (in the event that students WERE allowed to carry) that a course on campus security would be required to carry on campus. I'm not suggesting that all concealing students be deputized, only that they recieve basic triaining in communication and safety skills, even basic triage. This training might help to quiet the concerns of those that don't understand that we are the good guys.
That'd be perfectly acceptable at private colleges under property rights, not as a separate measure imposed by government.
Even in the case of public universities, I'd love to see such a class be offered at no extra charge to students. I would be surprised if the majority of those who opted to carry didn't choose to take the class.

archigos
April 3, 2008, 02:28 PM
Take part in the Students for Concealed Carry on Campus Empty Holster Protest.
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=7594769834

Its April 21st to April 25th.
If its not already been done, submit a letter to your school newspaper explaining what the protest is, what its about, and why all these people are wearing holsters around your campus. There's already an outline for a letter to administrators (that could very easily be used as a guideline for writing a letter to the newspaper) on the event page linked above.

Daggertphi
April 3, 2008, 04:07 PM
I participated in the open-holster rally last semester and sent a letter to the paper, but they were "encouraged" to run another article at the time... so much for free speech. It's tough to support 2nd ammendment rights at a university that ignores students' rights altogether.

Just last year a student was expelled from my University for a comment he made on a website that was in no way, shape, or form affiliated with the school. The comment was off color by his own admission, but free speech just the same. He was expelled, and to the best of my knowlede is one reason our campus in nearly entirely anti-gun as far as the faculty and administration are concerned.

romeo212000
April 3, 2008, 07:37 PM
I wonder if there is a way to get with other 2nd Ammendment supporters at OCCC so we can coordinate. I think we would draw a lot more protesters out in the open if we could get the word and and if people knew they would not be protesting alone in the school.

MudPuppy
April 4, 2008, 11:52 PM
"If the next campus shooting takes place at our university, it is our position that we want the intended victims of the assailant to be unarmed and defenseless. It's true that many people will likely die as a result of this, but it's preferable to the alternative."

Pat-inCO
April 5, 2008, 12:42 AM
Please help me understand why an editorial in a campus news letter is of so much concern. :confused:

Im283
April 5, 2008, 01:12 AM
It would be fairly easy to figure out who the bad guy is in this scenario. he or she would be the person who shot themselves dead at the first sign of resistance. These types always choose to blow themselves away as soon as someone with a gun coming for them enters the building.

They would be the dead person with a gun near their hand.

legitimate defenders would have their gun holstered by the time the cops showed up.

romeo212000
April 5, 2008, 01:55 AM
Pat in CO. It is a concern to me because it is local for me and there is something I can do about it. The reason it is a bigger deal to me is because what is given as fact and more people are forming their opinions based on untruth. These young people will be the ones voting for laws for or agains gun control. That is why it is important to me. The original post was more about how I handled the situation.

Rachen
April 5, 2008, 03:35 PM
Of all places, Oklahoma???

The libperverts' agenda is like mildew spores. They get into everywhere. Humidity, mildew, mold, diphtheria, corruption, decay.......................

mons meg
April 6, 2008, 12:18 PM
Yes, in Oklahoma, too. What we've learned here during this whole process is just how well-developed the higher educational political machine actually is. Paid lobbyists and high-powered ex-Senator presidents like David Boren mean you don't do ANYTHING at the Capitol regarding their "turf" without their say-so.

RP88
April 6, 2008, 05:34 PM
so what exactly are a bunch of unarmed campus security guys gonna do to stop a bad guy other than call the police?

romeo212000
April 6, 2008, 11:10 PM
Well at OCCC they are armed but from the looks of them they are basically rent-a-cops

macadore
April 6, 2008, 11:59 PM
No matter where you are in the world, no matter your race or religion, there is only one antidote to an armed bad guy and that is an armed good guy.

What a great sig. Think I’ll borrow it.

romeo212000
April 7, 2008, 08:05 PM
Apparently I made an impact with the editor. He printed an article this week about how the bill had been defeated. The article was basically no partisan. Had quotes from both sides including both students and state officials.

mons meg
April 9, 2008, 11:24 AM
Technically, the bill wasn't defeated. It passed the House by a good margin, and now the Senate has no time to hear it even though it's been all over the news. Couldn't have had anything to do with the silly "task force" report on campus safety that just came out.

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