.30-30 ballistics questions


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scythefwd
March 14, 2008, 11:33 PM
Does anyone have any information on the .30-30 round. I am looking for compairasons to other rounds (7.62X36, 5.56, 270, similar in use because an 30-06 is in a whole different class) in terms of transferred force, trajectory, penetration, how easily it is knocked off course (small twigs in a brush environment or wind in a field), at what distance it starts tumbling if it does, max range (approximate distance before the round hits ground), max effective range (approximate distance before accuracy in a good firearm becomes questionable combined with enough kinetic force for a kill shot on a medium deer of approximately 170 lbs).

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Ratshooter
March 15, 2008, 12:49 AM
There was thread on this not too long ago.

Most compare a 30-30 to a 7.62x39 and say they are the same. I think the 30-30 still has the edge. If you hand load for it especially. Most don't and using factory loads they are close.

Most people say 150 yards is the max. I have shot bowling balls at 300 yards using a 3 power scope on mine. My 30-30 knocked out nearly as big of a chunk out as my partners 270.

No they don't shoot through brush. Shooting through brush is a bad idea.

I have both and still would prefer the 30-30 for hunting. As far as a 170 pound deer goes its more than enough gun if you can shoot. Everything from Grizzly bears on down have been killed with a 30-30. You won't catch me hunting Grizzlies with one though.

The 30-30 normally gives excellent penetration and thats part of it success.

grimjaw
March 15, 2008, 01:19 AM
You can find some of that information including comparisons to other calibers at the various manufacturer's websites.

http://www.federalcartridge.com
http://www.remington.com
http://www.winchester.com

jm

rcmodel
March 15, 2008, 01:03 PM
Most 30-30's are used with the factory open sights.
That is the limiting factor on how far it will kill a deer.

If you scope one, and learn the trajectory, it will about double the range for most folks over the open sights.

If you can hit a deer it, it will certainly kill it!

rcmodel

B.D. Turner
March 15, 2008, 02:47 PM
With Leverevolution you get a 300yd deer rifle. LE has brought the 30-30 into the modern age.
Some folks are determined that the 30-30 is only good for a 100 to 125 yard shot. Most of these folks have never hunted and are just going on hearsay. I have taken deer with an SKS and a marlin 30-30 one was just as dead as the other.

Float Pilot
March 15, 2008, 03:42 PM
7.62 x 39 lovers always like to compare that round to the classic 30-30.

In fact the 30-30 has always used heavier bullets, 150 to 170 grain and the 30-30's bullets were all designed as round nose for feeding in a tubular magazine and for maximum energy transfer into game animals.

The average 30-30 factory load chrongraphs at 2,400 fps from a Win 94 using a 150 grain bullet and 2,200 fps using a 170 grain.
The average 7.62x39 round is 123 to 130 grains and chronographs at 2,300 fps from an SKS or Ak. (there is a wide variation in tolorences with that round and with militray rifles chambered for it)

A 150 grain .308 round nose fired at 2,400fps is still going 1,697 fps at 200 yards. It will still have around 960 ft lbs of energy and will be 7 inch low if the rifle is sighted for 100 yards.

A 125 grain .311 caliber spitzer fired at 2,300fps with be going 1822 fps at 200 yards and have about 920 ft lbs of energy at 200 yards. It will drop about 6.75 inches if sighted for 100 yards with a bullet impact at 200.

So on paper, they would seem to be close, but the 150gr round nose will do more tissue damage and impart more energy into a game size critter.

Oddly enough, the 170 or 180 grain round round fired at only 2,200 fps, will still be going 1,700 fps at 200 yards and have about 1,050 ft lbs of energy. And it will be only 8 inches low at 200 with a rifle sighted for 100.
From experience , I can tell you that a 170 or 180 grain round nose or flat nose bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2,200 fps will smack the heck out of most medium sized game critters within a reasonable range.


When you throw in a longer barrel like a M/94 rifle with a 26 inch barrel and hand loads, then you can push the 30-30 for more range.

Tom Horn used a 30-30 Rifle (not carbine) during his last few years of being a "Range Detective" unlike the model 1876 in 45-60 caliber that Steve McQueen used when playing Horn in the movie.

marlin4442004
October 3, 2008, 01:25 PM
Just joined the group here and reading up on the 30/30 comments. Very important issue that has been missed over the years is the use of pointed bullets in the tube feed of these lever guns. I know they now have the pointed plastic tip bullets but they are expensive ...I load regular .308's ...much cheaper. I have been reloading for 20 years and from day one I have been shooting pointed bullets from my Marlin 336 ...now WARNING ...do not load more than one at a time. We all know the danger of the point setting off the primer of another round ...all you do is put one in the chamber and one in the tube ...now you have 2 shots ( if your hunting) that will run neck & neck to a mild .308 factory load. I have seen these loads written up on other site reaching the 3,000fps range but in my gun I get a little too much case expansion if I load them too hot but I bet I am around 2,800+ from my little 20" barrel. Longest range at my club is 250 yrds and shooting a regular indoor target 12"x12" I easily keep them on the paper with a 3-12x40 scope holding at the top of the paper.

marlin4442004
October 3, 2008, 01:28 PM
edited

R.W.Dale
October 3, 2008, 02:16 PM
7.62 x 39 lovers always like to compare that round to the classic 30-30.



In fact the 30-30 has always used heavier bullets, 150 to 170 grain and the 30-30's bullets were all designed as round nose for feeding in a tubular magazine and for maximum energy transfer into game animals.


I just love how 30-30 people delude themselves into thinking they have a little .308

The problem is 30-30 zelots like to pretend that you can only buy underloaded 125grn 7.62x39mm ammo and they also put way too much faith in published velocity figures that are for 24" test bbls and like to claim that's what thier gettin in a 20" levergun. There isn't a 30-30 load made today that packs the velocity that the box says. From what I've researched the new hornady ammo is amongst the worst offenders in this respect

Just about any domestic x39 load is laughably underloaded, as you point out 125grn bullets at 2300fps. European ammo or handloads typically runs a good 150fps faster than that. Then there's handloads as well that'll shoot any bullet 30-30 will. I have a 170grn 7.62x39 handload that has 93% of the velocity of 170grn factory ammo from my win M94 with the same length bbl

7.62x39 vs 30-30 is much like those 308 vs 30-06, 270 vs 280 or 243 vs 6mm debates

There's no real diffrence other than the shape of the case

SSN Vet
October 3, 2008, 02:17 PM
toget the .30-30 cartridge comparison right, you have to consider ...

1. the cartridge itself (case geometry and sammii pressure limits)
2. the type of bullet being loaded (which is often, but not always limited to flat nose bullets)

Most of the comparisons I've seen with the 7.62x39 round talk alot about external balistics (what happens from the muzzle to the target) and compare flat nose 150 to 170 gr. bullets from a .30-30 to 124 gr. spitzers in a commie gun. That comparison is skewed (imho).

Compare apples to apples and the story is different.

A LOT of rifles have been produced for the .30-30 cartridge besides the Win '94 and Marlin 336, and even in those tube fed levers, spitzers can be safely fired by only loading one in the chamber and one in the tube.

I shoot both and load for both. The bottom line is that either round will likely do all you need it to do.


That's my story....and I'm stickin' to it!

Claude Clay
October 3, 2008, 02:27 PM
i can load my rem down to 30-30. i load my 30-30 lots of different ways, but i can not load it up to 308.
they share the same diameter bullet but are different critters. no delusion here. what you 'love' to believe about how other people think is just that--what you believe.

atlanticfire
October 3, 2008, 02:30 PM
I have an old Savage bolt 30-30 my father gave me a long time ago. I load it with 150 BTHP bullets and have been impressed with its proformance. Since its not a tube mag the pointy rounds dont matter.

Shawnee
October 3, 2008, 02:34 PM
"I just love how 30-30 people delude themselves into thinking they have a little .308"

I don't know any specific "30/30 people" who deludes themselves into thinking they have "a little .308".

Anyone I've met who uses the 30/30 a lot knows the 30/30 doesn't need to be "a little .308". It's an excellent deer/medium game caliber just the way it is.

:cool:

rcmodel
October 3, 2008, 02:38 PM
I have seen these loads written up on other site reaching the 3,000fps range I bet I am around 2,800+ from my little 20" barrel.This guy apparently does.

If he is in fact getting 2,800 FPS with a 150 grain bullet in a Marlin carbine, he is about to blow himself up!

rcmodel

Omaha-BeenGlockin
October 3, 2008, 02:49 PM
Just this last weekend.

Put a scope on my 336---sighted in at 100 yds with the cheap Winchester 150gn Power Point loads---putting my cross hair about 5in up on the chain of the 200yd steel plate---was pounding it with every shot.

Easily a 200yd deer gun with just a touch of Kentucky windage.

R.W.Dale
October 3, 2008, 03:10 PM
I get a little too much case expansion if I load them too hot but I bet I am around 2,800+ from my little 20" barrel.

I bet money that figure is much closer to 2300fps or even less. Whatever you do DON'T buy a chronograph.

Shawnee
October 3, 2008, 03:21 PM
A 150-grainer at 2800fps from a 30/30 carbine is, methinks, pretty optimistic.

I've tried the Hornady "Leverluton" ammo (1 box) and, though it has been quite accurate, I think it is notably slower than the published muzzle velocity. I don't have a chrono, though, so I'm just relating a subjective assessment here.

I think I have a pretty good feel for the 30/30 for what it is and what it can do. I admire it "as is" and don't need to ask it to be anything else. People I know who use it a lot are pretty much of the same mind. I really believe that for every person who overrates the 30/30 there are a thousand who underrate it.

:cool:

goon
October 3, 2008, 03:50 PM
FWIW -
Even the smallest branch in the way of a bullet can cause it to start tumbling and miss your target.
If you want to shoot something in thick brush I'd suggest that you look for a hole in the brush to shoot through.

Trajectory has already been covered but in practical terms, a zero of two inches high at 100 yards still puts you on a paper plate at 200 yards by holding dead on.
At that range, a 170 grain 30-30 in the right place is going to get the same venison as a bullet from a .270 or an '06 - what you do is going to be far more important than what the rifle does.
Also, the 30-30 does look similar on paper to the 7.62x39 but as was stated, it's firing a heavier bullet and will penetrate better. I wouldn't use a 7.62x39 on anything larger than an average whitetail unless I had no choice but I'd probably try up to elk with the 30-30 using good handloads and getting close enough to place my shot well.

You might also try www.leverguns.com for some more info.

Vern Humphrey
October 3, 2008, 04:22 PM
If you zero a typical .30-30 (say 170 gr at 2200 fps) to print 3" highwith iron sights at 100 yards, you'll be dead on at 175 yards, and about 3" low a bit beyond 200 yards -- which means no need to worry about range out to 200 yards.

If you mount a scope on the same rifle, and shoot Hornady LeveRevolution ammunition, you'll stretch that out to around 250 yards.

If you know your rifle and its trajectory, you can make hits to 300 yards with no problems.

Cosmoline
October 3, 2008, 05:14 PM
Just about any domestic x39 load is laughably underloaded, as you point out 125grn bullets at 2300fps. European ammo or handloads typically runs a good 150fps faster than that.

Hmm. My own handloading has not found that to be the case. I'm also not sure what domestic makers of x39 you're talking about. My own efforts to handload heavy x39's did not meet with very good results, either in accuracy or power. I would class it a slight notch below the .30-30 in power. But the biggest difference is in factory ammo. There are very few quality SP loads for the x39 available. Most are primitive exposed-core FMJ's that may or may not expand. With the .30-30 you have a huge array of tried and tested killers off the shelf. Plus a selection of 150 and 170 grain SP bullets for handloading.

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