[sm]

Many of us are older and remember a time when we did not have the guns, calibers we do today nor the products to maintain them.

Some of us continue to pass forward as passed to us, despite the fact we are a bunch of old farts and some guns and calibers are just flat out antiquated by today's standards.

The Reality is, I was born in the mid 50's and folks, did not have Internet, getting items ordered from catalogs took a little time, and folks did not have credit cards.

One made do, did without, saved up or put it in Lay-a-way.
So folks put some time and effort and thought about purchases.
They tried out guns for fit to them others in the family had before they bought in the first place.

Times were different then, then again some things remain the same - not everyone had/has gun smith skills, or had someone near that had these skills and parts.
Folks learned about "inspect, maintain, and lube" as how to properly care for tools , tools like firearms.

It was common for a person to admit they were not a gun smith savvy, such as a butcher.
So the butcher could assist someone on knives and sharpening, in exchange for doing gun smith needs on the butcher's guns.

Widow woman, she used a sewing machine and "bartered" for her guns and knives being maintained.
You get the idea.

So if matters got serious, these tight knit folks had skill sets among themselves.
Nurses, butchers, gunsmith, seamstress, auto mechanics...in a community setting if something went "that bad".

Guns are not the only tools, and they do not fix all that needs fixing if matters get that bad.

These are lessons me and mine continue to pass forward and share.
For fun, we chose some guns, and inspected, maintained and lubed them for periods of time, just like folks did, and could again if matters got that bad.


Steve

[Walkalong]

Absolutely. So many people would be sooooo lost without their plastic card and cell phone.

If they had to kill, clean, and cook something they would starve. They probably could not even start the fire.

For C*****'s sake. The Boy Scouts have to use propane stoves now. We cooked over open fires in my time in the Scouts.

We all toted knives. Some of us had guns and shot them on camping trips.

If they had to build a shelter or fix a broken tool they would be SOL.

Folks who know me have said (mom started it) If I was going to be stranded on a desert Island, I would want to be stranded with you. It's because I can fix stuff. Make something from a scrap pile etc. etc. You know SM, the old skills we took for granted, the ones most folks had back then, instead of just a few folks like today.

I always admired the men who seemed to be able to do it all. Maybe that's why I have gotten that way over time. I looked up to them and wanted to be independent and respected like them. Unfortunately, most folks don't care now.

It's to easy today. That's the problem (57, by the way)

[fastbolt]

Howdy.

Born in early 50's.

You can't buy common sense, skills, experience, tenaciousness and the willingness to persevere and overcome unpleasant situations and conditions.

If you find yourself in a situation where the only person to whom you have to turn is yourself, you better hope it's a good choice. ;)

I'm seriously beginning to wonder if the willingness to accept and shoulder responsibility is becoming a lost art.

[Bendutro]

I was born in 1980 and my folks raised me up to work hard and shoot straight. (I really think any kid who hasn't spent at least a year on a farm and/or gone hunting for food is missing out on an essential part of life)

Bottom line, I have a 2.5 year old and a newborn, they'll be getting the same exposures I did.

[Ed Ames]

I can fix perhaps 15% of the mechanical and electronic devices you are likely to encounter.... rig a sailboat, rebuild a carburetor, form and rivet airplane parts, tune a modern fuel injected car, solder anything from surface mount electronic components to plumbing, fix a busted chair, rebuild a database cluster, align a suspension, program a sprinkler timer, TIG weld if nobody really cares how the weld looks, fix a door, reconfigure a cisco, reassemble a completely disassembled .22 semi-auto rifle...

The only thing this breadth of skill has ever earned me is strange looks and cluttered workshops. Well, some of the more electronics/computer oriented skills have earned me two paychecks a month and 2 weeks of vacation a year but that's hardly relevant to this conversation.

I almost wish things would hurry up and get "that bad" so I can test this theory that all those skills are going to keep me in the unplucked chicken and truck garden squash as I help keep the world from collapsing one repair at a time.

I'm not holding my breath.

The problem most of us face is that we're in urban environments. As much as we hate it that's where the money is and that's where the majority of the US population is. It doesn't help all that much to help each other if things get really rough... we've got to help people outside the big badness and get some of what they've got... because there won't be enough to go around 'round here.

[bnkrazy]

I'm in the same boat a Bendutro, born in 1980 and raised to make use of what I had. As an Eagle scout, I've done my share of survivalist training, and would fair well if the time came to pack up and go. Growing up in the country, I was taught to build things and fix things when they broke. Hunting and fishing were a tradition.

I'd honestly love to get rid of money, and go back to a barter system again. Communities would grow closer and safer. In fact, on many occasions I trade my services as a web developer and software architect for services of other businesses in the area. There are many opportunities to work out a fair trade for services if you look for them.

I realize it won't work for everything, but I get tired of the rat race and miss how simple life used to be. How communities were closer together. And I didn't even grow up in that era.

[Mt Shooter]

Mid fiftys here, I had to walk to school in waist deep snow. And it was uphill, BOTH WAYS :rolleyes:

[elrod]

More wisdom, please!!!!;)

[sm]

Thanks for the replies folks.

Understand I and others are not against new technologies, advances in materials and the like, instead there is place to investigate and verify , and use both old and new tools to safe and secure.

i.e.

Electricity goes out, and gas pumps are not going to pump, ATMs will not work, and cash registers will not work in stores.

Gasoline and Diesel fuels get more expensive, and this affects the price of goods and services.

So one is not going to drive all over town "shopping".
One may choose to shop by catalog as folks did back in the day with Montgomery Ward and Sears Roebuck.
Modern times one might use the Internet.


One may be restricted by personal financial means, or Gov't means on buying say for instance $6 a gallon gasoline.

Gas Rationing, gas stamps, and one is only allowed so many gallons at time, and they can only buy on certain days according to "alphabet of last name".

This affects shipping of items ordered ...as shipping is going to have some restrictions on fuel costs.

Guns:

These are tools, and folks have already been through tough times in history, and not just those in the USA, also persons all over the world.


Still...if Matters get that bad...

A single shot .22 rifle, that will put down a critter caught for food caught in a trap, makes a whole lot of sense.

The gun itself is pretty simple, robust and reliable. The ammunition is not as expensive per round fired as most, and inspecting , maintaining and lubing one is not that big of a deal.

Red Ryder BB Gun. Spring Powered, no CO2 ctgs to buy, BBs are not as expensive as .22 rim-fire, and they too will fell a bird in a snare, or even fell out right a bird for food.
Perhaps run off a pest, though tossing a rock , or using a slingshot with a rock might even be better.

Just a simple old gun cleaning kit one has had for umpteen years made by Outer's, Hoppe's, Marble's, Kleen-Bore ...worked then, still will.

Just how much attention does a single shot .22 really need after taking 6 squirrels with 6 shots fired?

[MachIVshooter]

tune a modern fuel injected car

:scrutiny:

You're set up to flash the PROM & re-map powertrain management?

SM-

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. All you suggesting that we all cut up our credit cards and sell off everything but a .22 Single shot and a red ryder? I'm all for being self-sufficient and have made a concerted effort to ensure that I can take care of me and mine for rather extended periods of time. But I've no intention of living as though the apocalypse is just around the corner, and will take advantage of modern conveniences whenever they are available. FWIW, though, I do not own a cell phone. Never really found a use for one.

[sm]

MachIVshooter,

Quite a few new folks are totally bumfuzzled and overwhelmed with today's economic situation and wondering how folks actually survived tough times in the past.

Sad, still the reality is, these folks were not raised in households with firearms or other matters we deal with here on THR and sister sites.

They want to be matriculated into the firearm community and having a hard time finding mentors locally to mentor them.

Some folks "insist" they have to have certain guns, and other tools to be a responsible firearm owner.

Behind the monitor myself and others assist and share some things like reading some history , and seeing how matters got to be, how folks prepped and survived.

I and others understand budgets and how "having to have" is not necessarily so.
These folks do not "have to have" a expensive gun that shoots certain ammo and be cleaned with a expensive solvent and lubed with an expensive lube.

They are not "wrong" , "dumb" or "stupid" if they do buy a good used single shot .22 rifle, or Model 10 in 38spl, or single shot 20 ga shotgun, or Lever action in 30-30 or...

One lady became disappointed as the ones she asked made her feel inferior.
I said she was not, and in fact she was more centered.
She wanted a Marlin 60, simply because when she was smaller she got to shoot one numerous times at camp. The only time she got to shoot was at camp.

Everyone "said" she had to have a 10/22, with all this stuff added and tricked out.
Nothing wrong with a 10/22, or one tricked out, still one does not have to have one to be a part of the firearms community.

Her background and how raised is sorta sad, and I understand her feeling embarrassed.
I said get the darn Marlin 60, get the Woodtone finish since she liked it best and then find a gal to teach her.
By golly some suggestions worked and now she had the best time learning, and helping other kids learning to shoot.

She is learning herself, and at the same time assisting kids.
Now if matters got that bad, she has a gun she can shoot, afford ammo for and not have to worry about any accessories or much of anything else for.

She understands why I suggested a bolt gun, and I understand her sentimental reasons for a Marlin 60.

My point is, some of what is debated, polls posted about, and gets folks all in a tizzy - is not that big of a deal, and in fact may not be the best choice to have when matters are bad.

i.e. .50 cal Deagles would not be on the list, much less at the top as the first gun to have if matters got serious.

i.e. Just me, still I don't have any gortex , nor camo clothing.
When I was a kid, we did not have these and instead it was skill sets and woodscraft skills.

Waxed cotton if torn can be sewn and re-waxed, try that with gortex.
Folks managed all these years to hunt and fell game without camo, and all of a sudden one "has to have" it?

*sniff* *sniff*...I smell it, you smell it? - Eddie Murphy

[Ed Ames]

You're set up to flash the PROM & re-map powertrain management?

"Flash the prom"? Sorta... I can remove the old prom, dump it, and burn a new one with new tables. For some ECUs anyway... and for the others, well, if I can't figure it out then give me the general specs of the injectors and I could probably work a fair replacement for the ECU if given time and components. It's not unfamiliar territory.

I can also run a lathe or mill, program CNC tools, sew rips in pants, program in half a dozen languages and create new ones if I'm feeling insane, draw inane conclusions, cook decent meals over diesel fires (which is the most far-fetched thing I've claimed... soot ain't your friend), brew beer, boil eggs, and a million other things that may come in handy some day but I still don't see how any of it will help a city dweller like myself and most of the US population to weather a real economic storm.

Most of us really are living without a net. Oh, the giverment can print more money and steal a few turnips for us to eat but if it comes down to the difference between a 10/22 and a single-shot there are going to be bigger problems like no potable water to drink. We're in a position where we've got to perform... got to avoid a real melt-down... or we've got to get really good at processing dead bodies en mass.

I'm not saying the concepts aren't good ones... diverse skills make you a better person (or so I pretend... gotta justify myself some how) but we really aren't going to start a barter/hunter-gatherer society. We are too dependent on transportation to move basic necessities around, too dependent on infrastructure to keep us from dehydration and nasty body odors, too dependent on internationally accepted currency to keep us in Brazilian beef and Chilean vegetables.

I suspect.

[taliv]

sm

there's a fine line between being reasonably familiarized and competent with low-tech means for getting things done, and being a survivalist nut.

I'm very interested in the former and not at all in the later.

I realize these topics are off-topic for THR. It would be nice if a non-survivalist community found a home on APS to discuss such things.

Even so, most of these things aren't learned by reading the internet; they're learned by doing. The course of action with the highest probability of success is finding someone in your community with the skills and desire to teach.

[sm]

taliv,

Good points.

My contention is "it is all good".

My mom hates computers, she will use one, still not her thing.
One day the IT system went "kaput" and of course there was a real important document that had to be across town.

No electricity, no IT, but phones did work.
Mom reached past the IBM Selectric and grabbed the Manual Typewriter in a cabinet.
Younger folks that were a whiz with computers were going "what is that old thing?"

Mom had a old chrome flashlight, glass lens, and asked for one of the young ones to hold the flashlight and "get another old fart from down the hall to
bring more lights".

Mom typed that document like it was done in the old days with carbon paper, a courier service was called and waiting and took that important document across town before the deadline.
A carbon copy was on file.

*smile*

Some of this "making it when things get bad" - is nothing more than common sense.
Quite a bit can be learned from one of our best natural resources - our older members of society.

Yes that old codger that shoots a Colt Python, most likely knows how to trim a wick on a oil lamp, or that wool keeps one warm even if wet.

THR can handle this.

I've seen pictures of Derek with a lever action rifle.
Word I have is he did not want to have to look for mags if the server needed shooting, lever actions are not dependent on mags. *snicker*

[mehere]

Ammo will get you through times without money better than money will get you through times without ammo.

[MMCSRET]

Born 1945 before the war ended on a ranch in eastern Idaho. No phone or electricity until 1949. Butchered beef and chickens, all were canned in 2 qt. mason jars and kept in root cellar. Hogs butchered and cured in brine barrels in corner of root cellar. Had 2 tractors but had 21 teams of horses to put up hay and feed with in the winter. Had rifles and shotguns behind every door going out of the house, bunkhouse and barns. Cook stove had a water jacket to heat water for washing. Had running water in house gravity fed from a spring up the canyon, even had flush toilets due to gravity water system. Ranch has been in the family for approx 120 yrs. I learned a lot growing up. I'm retired and moving farther north next month, north central Montana.

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Steve,

When I was 14 my uncle insisted I learn to make a bow from a tree sapling, arrowheads from old bones and arrows all from scratch. He then insisted I kill a deer with that bow, field dress the animal, hang it and process the meat by myself.

At the time I thought my uncle was taking his Indian heritage just a bit too far... These days I'm not so sure.

Selena

[MachIVshooter]

SM-

OK, now I'm on the same page. It just came across initially that you were suggesting we all shouldn't have anything that we can't mend or rebuild on our own. I fully agree that most folks these days have become, for lack of a better term, highly specialized, in that they are very well educated and skilled in one very narrow field, and relatively incapable when it comes to many other things. Like you, I see this as a handicap in some respects. However, in this complex society, people need to be that specialized. Also, that's how we make money. If everyone could do everything, none of us would be making much money in our professions.

there's a fine line between being reasonably familiarized and competent with low-tech means for getting things done, and being a survivalist nut.

This I also agree with.

I can remove the old prom, dump it, and burn a new one with new tables. For some ECUs anyway... and for the others, well, if I can't figure it out then give me the general specs of the injectors and I could probably work a fair replacement for the ECU if given time and components. It's not unfamiliar territory.

That's old school stuff, man:neener:

Just givin ya a hard time ;). But seriously, some vehicles built today have over 100 on board computers. It's a little more complicated than adjusting injector pulsewidth and ignition timing when you're dealing with throttle-by-wire variable displacement engines that are mated to CVT transmissions, both of which are linked to the BCM, SIR, ABS, TCS and stability control systems.

WRT what SM is talking about, new vehicles are far too complicated for any one person to be capable of all repairs with no support. I have thousands of dollars tied up in scanners and software to do OBDII/CAN/Mode 6, but I still have to send a vehicle to the dealer after PCM replacement so that it can be calibrated with the proprietary specifications.

I really enjoy playing with the new technology, but seeing the problems with it is precisely why I have a bunch of carbureted vehicles where the most complicated component is a $40 solid state ignition control module that uses a single pick-up coil. Don't have the day-to-day reliabilty of cars 30 years newer, but I can throw $300 worth of spare parts in the trunk and, barring engine/trans/diff failure, make any necessary repairs on the side of the road with simple tools. I rather like being able to diagnose with nothing more than a DVOM.

And when the EMP bombs start going off, I know my old M35A2 will keep on moving. :D

[sm]

I saw a neat thing recently.
A couple was in a late 60's VW Beetle, the wifes car when she went off to school.
This Beetle is so simple and "I don't have to worry about Anti-Freeze" she said, referring to another vehicle they have that requires a special anti-freeze.

They were in a franchise sporting goods store, getting some .22 ammo, primers for shotgun and small pistol, rubber bands for homemade sling shots a cast iron dutch oven.

The .22 ammo is for them and to spoil grandkids with. Cast Iron dutch oven is a B-Day present for a friend of the family.
"We had them over and we had cooked a roast in the fireplace and she went nuts over the aroma in the house and how neat that was".

Nice couple, simple tools, and they have both new and old skill sets and tools.

They were telling off on themselves about a new coffee maker that grinds beans and does other things, which they are still learning about.

"it has more moving parts than the Beetle , and it even has a computer in it!"

Now that is both funny and ironic!

[Ed Ames]

Old School indeed. :) We were talking about retro skills weren't we? Seriously though... cars have fairly simple control systems (and yeah, I'm talking about the ones with "over 100 on board computers") and I'm enough of an egotist to think I can figure any of them out if given time and incentive... plus, and this is my real charm, I'm enough of a neanderthal that I could just replace everything if I really needed to make the thing work the way I wanted it to work. That's the bright side of being unreasonable. And yeah, I've got the OBDII/CAN/Mode 6 scanners and software though in my case mainly to cross check and do some reconfiguration after I tinker on my own vehicles.

In the end, well, it depends on what you mean by repairs. If you want to sell your services to picky people who actually expect their car to be back to dealer spec. you are absolutely right. If you want the thing to work so you don't starve, or even to win races, one person can do a surprising amount. I'm lucky in that I really don't want to sell those services. ;)

Regarding SM's main point, it's valid but. The but, from my perspective, is that most people in the US don't live in areas where primitive survival is sustainable.

When I was a kid I lived in urban areas that had large numbers of emigrants from parts of the world where it was normal to subsistence or at least augmentation hunt/gather. It was fascinating to see just how little of that an urban environment could take. They would go to city-maintained parks, ponds, public beaches, and the like with bottles of bleach, nets, snares, and what have you and literally empty the places of all life. Fish, squirrels, birds, rabbits, anemones, crabs... you'd see trucks come out and stock the ponds with fish and a few days later they would be out with nets gathering all the fry they could... 5 gallon buckets of them... a few weeks after that there was nothing left. That was with maybe 1% of the population augmenting their food supply a bit. I just don't see how the ability to catch and prepare squirrels for dinner will be more than a passing survival skill for most people in the US today. The squirrels will be gone in a week.

Unless we're proposing a mass exodus from the cities? I don't think the rural folks should be hoping for that. :)

If things get really bad we should have the air force drop 100,000 copies of "To Serve Man" over every major city and be done with it. :D

[taliv]

there's a fine line between being reasonably familiarized and competent with low-tech means for getting things done, and being a survivalist nut.

all i'm saying is if someone in your group doesn't have a copy of the foxfire books and know how to salt pork and distill fine sour mash beverages, you need to rethink :)

[Wes Janson]

I'm not saying the concepts aren't good ones... diverse skills make you a better person (or so I pretend... gotta justify myself some how) but we really aren't going to start a barter/hunter-gatherer society. We are too dependent on transportation to move basic necessities around, too dependent on infrastructure to keep us from dehydration and nasty body odors, too dependent on internationally accepted currency to keep us in Brazilian beef and Chilean vegetables.

I suspect that you're entirely correct. I also suspect that if one were to do a study on the forced transition from a globalized American economy, to localized subsistence farming..the overwhelming majority of the populace would be killed in the transition. We have what we have specifically because of the efficiencies and abilities brought about by high technology and specialization. Heinlein may have a point about specialization, but by the same token it's utterly ridiculous to assume that a high-technology society needs to be focusing education on fire-starting skills. Fact is, if it comes to that point, the die has already been cast and everyone loses.

[wuluf]

i've been enjoying SM's posts for the wisdom of an "old phart"..and now i find we're about the same age! he's still wise, but now he's MUCH younger...

[hankdatank1362]

But....

I have a VISA if I ever need anything actually done!


;)

[sm]

So me and mine in keeping with matters have gone bad , and to share with others, including some kids...

Guns.

Now remember, times are hard, one is not going to run all over town, spend money on gas, or on things they really need to watch that money for more important things.

So one family has a old Hoppe's cleaning kit, I mean back when the lubricating oil came in a tin can.
Sentimental reasons to not use that kit, so they bought a inexpensive one like it. The universal kit.

This is what they used for a few months to inspect, maintain, and lube Colt Revolvers, Single shot .22 rifles, and Bolt action long guns in centerfire calibers.

Extra patches from old T shirts and linens, old toothbrush, and the like.
Oh the Colts are really nice guns! These get shot quite a bit, even carried.

Johnson's Paste Wax, was another something they have always used, so it was used as normal.
RIG + P he had, so that went on hinge pin of shotguns.

This fellow, heck he used that old kit , and this stuff with his dad and uncle, to keep up guns when he was coming up.

Just one example...
Oh I did this too, and I chose to be more "simple" than some of the others.

I did not use a cleaning kit like the others, still I inspected and maintained and kept up what I used.
I'll share that later.

[ZombiesAhead]

Not sure how on-topic this is, but I really appreciate these sorts of memories.

I'm pretty young - born in '84 and headed off to law school. I'm a luddite at heart - I do all the service on the family cars/motorcycles/engines/etc. I use iron sights instead of optics. I try to get a broad understanding of simple tasks that were actually useful before everything became professionalized and specialized.

Anyway, when people ask why I'm studying law, I posit this idea: In this crazy litigious world of specialization, the ability to wrangle through the ridiculous bureaucracy of the "system" seems like it provides a similar skill set that the yeoman farmer/hunter/homesteader of the past needed to be self sufficient.

I'm not happy about it, but it seems like manipulating the system is sort of a meta-skill-set that has replaced the jack-of-all trades, self-sufficiency of the past.

...But then what does happen when the system breaks down? Hopefully I will have more self-sufficiency type skills than your average professional but the reality is that until the breakdown (and it will happen whether tomorrow or in 100,000 years) we are living in a world of professionalization that separates man from a certain essence of the rugged individual.

Way off topic, but interesting ideas and I appreciate your thoughts, sm...

[Ala Dan]

Steve My Ole' Friend-

Yep, being born in the late 40's myself I enjoyed those times too; when
life was soooo much simpler. My first gun was an old Winchester single-
shot bolt-action model 67-A .22 caliber rifle bought NIB from Rockett's
Hardware in Brighton, AL* for $18.50. Shot that thing for many years,
bringing down birds, squirrels, and mistletow alike. Come winter, we
always had a coal burning fire in the fireplace. That reminds me, a
ton of coal also wa $18.00 back then (1955); and most families
enjoyed quality time, away from 'puters, television, ect. The drug
scene was not even heard of back then; at least in my neck of the
old woods. In 1965 at age 18, I joined Uncle Sams U. S. Army, and
never looked back. Times quickly changed, from the "good life" to
military life taking me far from home. The only mistake I can see
that I made was when my tour of duty ended; I did not re-enlist.
I have thought about that one for a very long, long time; as it
was hard leaving my comrades in arms behind.

* FootNote: For those that don't know- Brighton, AL was considered
the halfway point by railway officals when riding the "Silver Crescent"
from New York to New Orleans.

[RP88]

I can relate to this, even though I'm a little 19-yr old city boy. Too many people from my generation--and the generation before it--have grown spoiled and soft. I'm the only one out of my friends and all who doesnt have his mom and dad pay his bills. I seem to be the only one with real physical discipline and the ability to rely on myself when needed. People are too used to convenience nowadays; the fact that people chow down on McDonalds before suing drug companies because their metabolite pills they bought didnt make their fat asses burn off those 1/2-pound cheeseburgers is just a burning example

[Elm Creek Smith]

Selena-

I'm surprised he didn't make you knap the arrowheads and the skinning and caping blades from flint.

ECS

[41magsnub]

This is one reason I love my dad so much. Born in 1976 I still learned survival skills. Because of the things he made me learn I can shoot guns, fish/hunt, process my own game, tie flies, know enough to be dangerous as a carpenter/plumber/electrician, cook, build a snow cave, sew well enough to mend pants though you won't see me trying to make cloths unless really desperate, cut firewood efficiently (without power tools), build a fire without matches, drive off road safely, and many other skills.

[def4pos8]

In the midst of a disaster you have to find humor wherever you can.

The biggest giggle I took away from Katrina was watching no less than four of my neighbors, the morning after the storm, standing in the middle of the street furiously pounding on their cell phones!:what: The looks of panic were priceless!!:evil:

All of us old GIs (I was born in '55.) just sort of kicked back, taking deep breaths, glad to be alive. We knew it'd be a few days before the comm net would be back up. You've got to have some patience!;)

I've always felt the need to maintain my tools and passed that on to my kids: Airline Boy, Duh Marine and, especially, Daughter the Space Engineer. They all know how to "bend wrenches" and ask others when they don't know.:D

[Officers'Wife]

Hi ECS,

I'm surprised he didn't make you knap the arrowheads and the skinning and caping blades from flint.

I suspect if he had lived longer I would have been forced to learn how to forge weld knife blades. I wish I had learned the craft or at least the basics. Blacksmithy would be a useful skill even in these modern times.

Selena

[Caimlas]

I was born in the early 1980s, but due to some permissive grandparents who my brother and I stayed several summers with, and active involvement in scouts with my dad as den/scout master, I think I turned out OK.

In scouts, we made fires when things permitted, and used improvised 'stoves' we made ourselves when things weren't suitable. We had knives; often times, many knives (I had the biggest 'knife collection' at many scout outings and camps). We had hatchets. And for the most part, we competed on how to use them better - and helped each other in doing same.

And, during the summers, the toys/tools of choice were fishing rods, cap guns, BB guns, slingshots, a bow and arrows, and fire crackers (and with supervision, .22s). We had run of a fairly large lakeside property, and made good use of it. Many song birds, snakes, squirrels, and chipmunks suffered untimely deaths at our hands.

I think that due to the generational gapping in my family, and the fairly conservative values within my family, I grew up with a set of cultural expectations that was a generation or two before my time. Having a pragmatic, utilitarian engineer or a father and a creatively minded nurse as a mother probably helped foster my creative approach to pragmatic problem solving and interest in self reliance.

And fortunately, in today's world where there is very little give-and-take sharing of skills and services, there is at least the Internet to help the self-styled tradesman to get by. It costs more, and is prone to trial and error, but if you need to, you can get by pretty well "on your own" - if you take the time and put forth the effort.

This is one reason I love my dad so much. Born in 1976 I still learned survival skills. Because of the things he made me learn I can shoot guns, fish/hunt, process my own game, tie flies, know enough to be dangerous as a carpenter/plumber/electrician, cook, build a snow cave, sew well enough to mend pants though you won't see me trying to make cloths unless really desperate, cut firewood efficiently (without power tools), build a fire without matches, drive off road safely, and many other skills.

Amen! For me, it wasn't any one parent, but one of my parents, uncles, or grandfather who assisted me along that road of relative self reliance. Family is first, and community second, in terms of imporance and with whom you should share - and receive - skills and knowledge.


I'm not happy about it, but it seems like manipulating the system is sort of a meta-skill-set that has replaced the jack-of-all trades, self-sufficiency of the past.


That is sadly true. As they say, those who can, do; those who can't become teachers. (no no, that's the wrong one!) As they say, there are two kinds of people in this world: those who can get st*ff done, and those who know how to get ahead in life.

[sm]

Since some asked, I'll reply in public.
I am the eldest of 4.
The fella that sired us...
... let us just say I was the male head of the household, assisting mom raising the sibs.

Fella that sired us, spent over 30 years in the "Reserves", I understand he was damn good at what he did,and shot expert marksman with a carbine.

The only reason he took me to shoot, 3 times total, and one was hunting, is he was shamed into doing so by other fathers.

I had Mentors & Elders, as I had a maternal grandma, and her folks she run with, and I wanted what she, my uncle, and these mentors had.

The last time I shot with the fella that sired me, he got extremely angry.
He did not know I could do as I was, much less shoot.
Squirrel hunting...I was felling squirrels with a rifle at first. I had "embarrassed" the fella that sired me, as I had not missed.

I bowed up, rebelled, and other men were angry with this fellow that sired me.
I used a .22 revolver, and the other men, and other kids, knew something the fella that sired me did not.
Matters got a bit tense, still everyone backed me up, I threw down a challenge and beat the fella that sired me, in felling squirrels, he used a rifle, I used a handgun.

I knew the woods, I had been mentored in woodscraft skills and being mobile and flexible.

Shotgun start, and shotgun end, we had about 1 1/2 hours for this challenge.
I did not play fair, I cheated, I pulled out all the stops and reached deep down and inside for every morsel of anything mentors and elders had shared.

He made his choices, and they did match my moral law and what I wanted.

Years pass, I tried to close this gap with him, more than once. The more I tried, the more I did the "right thing" the worse it got.

I gave it my best shot, and some things are not meant to be.
Some more years pass and I find out after the fact, he showed up to where I was shooting in a serious competition.
Mentors and others stepped up, and said he could watch from a distance, but stand down. They knew how I felt about the Mental Game and staying focused.
I happened to be one of the better shooters, not a brag, just information.

"Where in the hell did he learn to shoot a shotgun like that!!" he asked in total awe, at the game, and the stakes.
"Sure as hell was not from you, you have seen enough, now leave, you are not welcome in these parts". Mentors, like kind said.


If you want something bad enough, you will find a way to get it.
I don't care what is "right" or "wrong" - you gotta do what you gotta do, follow your convictions and take responsibility for actions.

This fella like I said was in the "Reserves" (understand some privacy here please).
I run with certain types as mentors and some were Military Types .
Off out of the way we were doing "our thing". Before 3 gun come to be.
We looked a bunch of gall-durned hippes with long hair , pony tails, beards...

Hot range, Big Boy Rules...
"Gunny" I had a number of mentors I call "Gunny" , and this fella that sired me, stopped in the distance to watch, what was going on.
Some gall-darned hippie freak was shooting from the back of a moving truck...
Same damn hippie freak was being "extracted" with a rope behind a jeep and running a 1911...
Same one was shooting a 1911 unlike the fella that sired me had been taught.

Later...fella that sired me run over to see a target, hostage target and where shots were fired...

"That gall-durned hippie freak, you sired" Mentor I call Gunny said, and he tossed a metal oil can and "He can't dance for spit, but he can get a oil can to dance, keep it, something to remember that boy with..."

Might explain my take on some things...
Like why I believe in passing forward, having guns and equipment so one can, even if they do not have kids, or nieces and nephews.
Why I am still learning, so while I pass forward what little I know, I bug the fire out of folks still to teach me.
Folks, kids, ladies, elderly, physically limited...I have always learned from these folks, and my attitude is I always will.

I still cannot dance worth spit, I do what I call the "snuggle and shuffle". Never did get the hang out of popping wheelies with a wheel chair either.
At least I "tump" a bit better now and that gets me a few style points.

"Hey dummy don't you recall us sharing that tumping on grass is softer that hard pavement?" - Physically Limited in wheelchairs.

"Ouch...err yeah now that you mention it, I do seem to recall you folks sharing that...now how in the hell do I get aloose from this damn thing?" - me

I have the distinction of being able to miss a gym mat 3 times in a row and finding a hardwood floor trying to pop wheelies in a wheelchair too...

"Boy got talent, got give 'em credit for that" - 'Nam Vet in a wheelchair...about to bust a gut laughing...

[cbn620]

I'm a strong proprietor of the "social network", like you describe. Having ranch hands, people who are mechanical and tech savvy, people who are nurses or doctors, HAM radio operators and people of all professions in a network or neighborhood is about the wisest thing one can do.

I mean "bugging out" just doesn't make much sense to me. What's going to happen when someone ends up with appendicitis? What's going to happen when an ejector or firing pin goes out of commission? What's going to happen when the cell phone's battery dies? What's going to happen when the cans of Dinty Moore stew are running out? There have got to be skilled workers and artisans of all type who can and will support their community and family. That's what built our country.

[taliv]

among the many skills you may need "if matters get that bad" is how to lift a rock the weight of two bulldozers several feet in the air and stand it on end.

http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=28118

[Blackbeard]

I've always wondered about this. My biggest concern is that all of my skills revolve around computers, so if the lights go out I'm as useless as Paris Hilton.

[sm]

I'm as useless as Paris Hilton.

I have actually run into Paris and Nicole, quite by accident I might add.

Just needed gas for my truck, pack of Marlboro Red, Dr. Pepper and did not know what the hell what was going at the small Southern town.
Last time there was this much excitement was when black labs were born and Miss Lucy got "rit up" in the local papers as her peach cobbler won a prize at the fair...

Nichole can pump gas, get a box smokes, ring up a sale and know how much the Dr. Pepper was, and even count back change.

Paris...
Matters if get that bad, some community is gonna do right fine with a town whiner...
This is sorta like a mix of wounded rabbit and I best not type that.
She got falling off a horse down pat...

Everyone has a role...and some community will need someone to keep predators away from food storage areas...and someone to scout for horse and bull chips for emergency fuel.

Nicole can can ride in the back of my truck..., then again I alway thought Marianne on Gilligan's Island was a contributing member unlike Ginger.
<truck with Nicole and Marianne mind pic>

Southern Boy I am, out and about traveling in da South, and I meet these in London.
Geography I made an A back in the old days.
This was when London was in England, not Arkansas and the London bridge was not in Arizona yet either.

Nicole could catalog and keep inventory and records and she picks up on stuff...
Makes sense to me have her side kick out keeping critters away from the food stuff...

Debra Winger...
She would be a good one to have in community too.
I met her in my travels down in Gilley's, outside of Houston...
That gal got spunk and grit I tell ya!

Everyone has talents and gifts, even if they don't know it.

Excuse me, I need to recall that *pitter patter* moment with Debra Winger...
"Darlin' I can't dance, but if you lead, I do a real nice snuggle and shuffle..."

Anyone seen my soundtrack of Urban Cowboy?
Longneck beer bottle looks better in her back jeans pocket that it does mine...

Important skill set - knowing how to use a back pocket proper.
The gals and guys that know this skill set , are ones you want near.

I am serious, just part of reading people, places and things...

[ArfinGreebly]

. . . program in half a dozen languages and create new ones if I'm feeling insane . . .
And you speak CAN?

I speak IIC, or I²C if you prefer, though I'm a mite rusty.

"Create new ones?" Well, not in some twenty years, but there were those FORTH years. And ASM on Heathkit. Still have that.

*Sigh*

Gawd, those were the years.

If it all "goes South," I would hope you'd head North. I'm gonna need a bigger place, though, if all the people I've invited decide to take me seriously.

Guess I'm gonna have to get some acreage. I can see it now: "Honey, the market has crashed and the dollar is all done, and it's looking pretty grim. I guess we'd better head up to Greebly's place."

:D

[Superlite27]

Everyone has talents and gifts, even if they don't know it.

It's amazing what we all take for granted. The convenience of instant this and instant that has led us down a tricky path. It is going to be difficult for us all to find our way back up the road of convenience we've taken and travel the one of patience and neccessity. If the lights should ever happen to go out for good, we'll all have to learn the old ways we might have passed by along the way to where we're at now.

I've heard the phrase "Every man for himself", but this attitude would lead us down another potential dead end.

If the lights ever do go out for good, it should be "Everyone for everyone". There are many things I know, but for each one of those, there are ten that I don't. I'd be willing to share each tid-bit I've got in exchange for the knowledge you're willing to share.

When it comes down to tradin' tid-bits, we all better make sure we're not broke.

[Bob F.]

Lots of good post; agree with many/most! Not much point in bugging out here. Guess this would be semi-rural; State chief honcho of "homeland security" says main concern is "Westward Migration". i.e.: SHTF mid-Atlantic coast and the infrastructure takes a hit. Those able to go mobile seeking food, shelter, fuel, safety all coming this way. Not good. Certainly some good folks in the mix, might trade building stockade fence for some meals or gas. Then again many others desperate enough to take, by whatever means, whatever they need or can get.

Fortunately have 2 families nearby I can count on, one more maybe and a widow lady across the road that might contribute a little but will be protected if need be.

STay safe (and stock up).
Bob

[Ed Ames]

Ahh... I2C... I used to work with a guy who... well... I grew to seriously wish I could convince him that I2C was his friend but I never did. At the time he was doing hardware and mentoring (there, sm, happy? :D) me on embedded systems except he was constantly coming up with crazy custom protocols that did basically the same job as I2C. It wasn't as though he didn't know what it was (we interfaced to various sensors that were native I2C communicators) but for his own stuff (and consequently anything I did that interfaced to his stuff) it was whatever he felt like that night.... so I'd have a microcontroller running I2C on one pin and some custom serial protocol on another, talking to another microcontroller running I2C on one pin and some funky serial protocol on another.... fond memories. ;)

Not just creating new languages, creating new languages that nobody in the universe (possibly excepting the author) can understand. I figure that's like a rite of passage, isn't it?

My favorite was basically a functional embodiment of graph theory. It totally freaked out most programmers that had to work with it because it had almost no concept of sequential operation or conventional control flow. You programmed a map (graph) with state identifiers that tied into the input of external sensors and when the program started it would find a starting state and traverse the graph to do its work. Each node could be programmed with different operations and interconnects to N other nodes and the control flow was that each time it did something it checked the sensors and re-figured what node it was really on in the graph. If it tried to go from A to D it would traverse the graph and decide that it needed to do B and C to get there. It would do B and check the sensors. If the sensors reported it was now on G it would re-analyze the graph to figure out the shortest route from G to D was through F and E so it would do F and check things again. If the sensors reported it was on F it would go on to E, otherwise it would re-calculate again. Simple operations could take it on some pretty weird trips but write your program correctly and it could automagically do some really complex stuff reliably in a rather unstable environment. Man did it bug C programmers though. :D

Heading north? The five year plan includes acreage in Wyoming or similar. :) Enough land to have a little dirt airstrip and a steel (or maybe concrete) hanger/house. Then I just need an airplane that can land on a little dirt airstrip, and a source of fuel for that airplane, and I'll be doing pretty OK.

[RoadkingLarry]

I'll turn 46 this summer. I make my living in the high tech world of telecommunications, I'm good at what I do it pays well and I hate it with a burning passion unequaled by the fires of hell.

Thats probably why when I'm recreating I go retro. I can run a coal fired forge, (built it myself) not real good but adequate for most things.
I cast my own bullets.
I make bows from solid wood using primarily hand tools, I can Knapp a usable (but not always pretty) arrow head from flint, chert or even thick glass and haft it to an arrow shaft made from natural materials.
I've butchered wild game as well as hogs and cattle.
I've made buckskin and vegetable tanned leather. And I can turn it into usable products from shirts to shoes.
I can garden/farm well enough to feed my family( the wife does the canning).

[Superlite27]

The duality of this thread astonishes me.

On one hand we have discussions of survivalism and how we would cope with learning the basics of simply existing.

This is interspersed with shop talk about programming language.

THR never ceases to amaze me.

[Ed Ames]

LOL... good observation!

I think it ties in nicely with sm's original message... that surviving tough times means a combination of basic skills and specialization. Without the basic skills you may not be able to get by at all... but without some special skills nobody will have any reason to trade with or interact with you and that leaves you in a dangerously unstable place.

In other words, you need some duality to get by. :)

It's a thought-provoking way of looking at issues I think we're all pretty concerned about right now... how are we going to do more than endure the next 5-10 years?

[ilbob]

Mid fiftys here, I had to walk to school in waist deep snow. And it was uphill, BOTH WAYS
I had to get up at 3am every morning, shovel a path to the barn, then milk all the pigs before walking to school uphill in the blizzard. Then turn around after school was out and walk home uphill in the blizzard to milk the same pigs again. Kids today have it so easy.

[sm]

Firearms are important, in more than just being tools, and symbolic.

If matters get that bad, firearms need to be inspected, maintained, and lubed properly, again as tool and for what they symbolize.

Preserving firearms.

One is not going to be zipping around town burning up gas/diesel fuel at $4, $5, maybe $7 a gallon looking for the gun cleaning stuff , much less the gun cleaning stuff of the week.
These are petroleum chemicals and the price of these will go up as well.

Catalog and Internet buying also means shipping is going to go up, due to fuel costs, and then again, maybe getting things shipped period is going to be a serious concern.

It be more of a priority for trucks to bring medical supplies, food and other essentials , than to use trucking fuel for delivering the latest greatest gun care products.

Who knows? Maybe anything "firearm related" is restricted on being shipped.

Let us be honest , for too many years, too many guns have survived without the latest and greatest gun care products.

Black-Powder shooters are a smart bunch!
Here on THR, the Black-Powder sub forum is one of the most civil and polite, if not the most civil and polite forum we have.

I don't know squat about BP, though I have shot BP guns, and this is my fault.
Still...BP guns have stood the test of time, and "cannot" use many of the products folks "have to have" for smokeless.

Just me, still perhaps a little less worry about the latest greatest lube, and taking some of that money and using it to Preserve Freedom.
Letters, Stamps, Email, Joining Pro-Gun organizations, Sending Donations...etc.

Bar of Ivory Soap and other simple things kept and keep BP guns up and running...even works on smokeless guns.

Hoppe's No. 9, or Low Odor Mineral Spirits, some Machine Oil and Lithium Grease is proven.
Even a $9 basic gun cleaning kit with a aluminum rod is proven.

If matters get that bad...
Priorities change, and folk star doing a lot of "I shoulda", as 20/20 Hindsight is known to be so clear.

During Katrina, folks could not get to items needed...many a gun was kept up with 3-in-one oil, a stick and a rag.

Tornadoes rip through, and who knows where the gun cleaning kits are, much less that gal of Breakfree CLP...
Super Oil by Radiator Speciality, Singer Sewing Machine oil, that orange bottle of Hoppe's Lubrication oil everyone turns their nose up at....

Natural Disasters are one thing, Preserving Firearms, both as tools and as they are the keystone of Freedom is another.

Put down the $20 bottle of lube, you already have lube.
Instead send $20 to some organization, or use to assist someone else in joining a organization, buy stamps, envelopes, even a calling card to call Reps...


You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes you just might find
You just might find
You get what you need - Rolling Stones