[Snarlingiron]

I shot about 150 rounds or so through my 11-87 today. Twice, the action locked open after my first shot, with the second round lying on the elevator. My buddy had a similar incident with his 11-87. We both shot about 50 rounds of Federal Field & Target Multi-Purpose Load, 1 1/8 oz, 7 1/2, 1200 FPS. We shot the rest with Remington Gun Club. All the failures were with the Federal, so one tends to think it was ammunition related. Maybe so, or maybe not.

My question is as the title states. What tells the 11-87 to allow the bolt to close or to lock it open? I'm having a little trouble seeing how ammo could have anything to do with this, but since I don't really totally understand the sequence of operation, I can't make a real good assessment.

[another okie]

It locks open after every round. The feeding of the new round releases the bolt.

[Snarlingiron]

Thanks, Another Okie. I duplicated the action, by placing a round in the magazine, and holding it in place while I opened and latched the bolt. I then released the round, and when it comes back and hits the carrier latch, the bolt releases. While it may be ammunition related, it would not be in the manner I was thinking. Rather than the recoil, gas pressure, etc. it may be that it is not feeding well from the magazine tube due to the base dimensions, material, or the possibility that the magazine tube could be dirty (not the case on this one), or the trigger group could be dirty. I'm on my way to swab out the magazine tube, but I will be surprised if it isn't clean.

Thanks again.

[Snarlingiron]

Ok, I just broke it down...again...the magazine tube was cleaner than a Safeway Chittlin. I will admit, however that the trigger group was pretty nasty when I cleaned it up earlier this afternoon. The caliper reveals no significant dimensional differences between the two brands of ammo. Kind of puzzling.

It is clear to me, however, that the round did not dispatch from the magazine tube with enough velocity to trip the carrier latch.

[sm]

Ok, I just broke it down...again...the magazine tube was cleaner than a Safeway Chittlin.

*grin* Now that is really clean!

Ain't da South Great!!

[chas08]

Ain't da South Great!!

American by birth Southern by the Grace of God :D

[CCW1911]

Here's a short list of things besides dirt that will cause this.

Weak magazine spring.

Sticking follower plastic followers are bad for this go with steel or aluminum

Extended tubes that don't align correctly. Look down the the tube and see if it runs true with the barrel.

Bent carrier latch. If you dry fire with the trigger group out of the gun the hammer strikes the carrier latch and can bend it.

Ross

[Snarlingiron]

Thanks, Ross. I have determined that I probably should replace the Magazine spring and follower. I don't have an extension on this gun and the carrier latch is good. It occurs to me that replacing the original spring with one for a +1 extension tube is a good idea. I have found a number of plastic followers, from Scattergun Technologies, Sure Cycle and others, but haven't found a steel or aluminum unit. Any ideas where I can come by one?

[Striker]

Snarlington, I can't find it online right now, but Brownell's has aluminum followers. Mine are red and fit the new style mag tubes. Give them a call.

[Pete409]

Snarlington,

You've received some good advice. Most likely weak magazine spring, dirty trigger assembly, out of spec ammo, or some combination of the above.

[CCW1911]

I like the Wolf magazine springs. Midway has a nice follower part number 911891 Ross

[another okie]

CCW 1911 is right.

The plastic factory follower gets rough easily and then it's hard to push down the magazine. This can be due to scratches or getting solvent on it. The solvent roughens up the edges.

The spring is another likely cause, as is ammo. It took me a long time to find just the right ammo. My 20 gauge 1100 will feed anything, but the 12 gauge is very picky and expects a 1 1/8 ounce shot load. Even a hot 1 ounce load won't cycle correctly, but a relatively mild 1 1/8 will. Why? I don't know. Something to do with the recoil force, I expect.

Also you should check the gas ports. They don't need cleaning often, but they can eventually clog up.

[Gearhead Jim]

IIRC, the FAQ section of Remington's website says the minimum load for reliable functioning in the 11-87 is 3 drams, 1 1/4 oz shot. My used-but-mint 11-87 seems reliable with 3 drams, 1 1/8 oz shot. In fact, my two 11-87 Police guns with 18" barrels and fixed gas system also work with that load.

[Snarlingiron]

My buddy and I both bought 2 boxes of 1 oz. loads, the cheep stuff. One box of Federal, and one of Winchester. I have a used, but mint 11-87 just like Gearhead Jim. My buddy has a brand new 11-87. Neither of use experienced any difficulties with the 50 rounds that we fired.

While the magazine tube was clean, the follower was very scratched indicating to me that at some point in time there was some kind of grit in the tube. I polished the scratches away with a muslin buff and some crocus to serve until I receive the new follower. I ordered a stainless follower (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=20384&title=SHOTGUN%20FOLLOWERS&s=44573#44573) from Brownells, as well as a new magazine spring. The magazine spring is from Scattergun Technologies, but I believe that it is actually a Wolff spring.

The reality is that all of this is probably unnecessary, because the only ammo that I have ever experienced the issue with is the value pack Federal 1 1/8 oz. from Wally World. My buddy had the exact same failure with his new 11-87 with the same ammo. Probably just an ammo thing, but in my feeble mind, I can't figure out how ammo would cause this issue unless it is dimensionally out of spec. I have some of it left, and should have the new follower and spring before this weekend. I will try it again, and post the results.

[another okie]

Weak ammo will change the moment at which the bolt locks back, which can mess up the sequence in which everything is supposed to occur. The pressure curve can be quite different on ammo that looks the same on the shelf. Save the cheap (and light) ammo for your pump or double barrel shotgun.

[Snarlingiron]

Ok, installed the stainless follower and Scattergun Technologies spring. I also removed the butt stock, action spring and follower. I didn't order an action spring when I ordered the other stuff, so I am stuck with the original one for now. However, I did wrap a 9mm bore brush with steel wool and thoroughly cleaned the action spring tube, action spring follower and the spring itself. May not make any difference, but it can't hurt. I am going to shoot it tomorrow, weather permitting (yeah, I'm a heathen). We shall see.

Thanks, Another Okie, in thinking this thing through, it occurred to me that the pressure profile, or recoil profile, or whatever you wish to call it could have exactly that effect. I realize that I could, probably should, just get some different ammo (actually I have, but still have some of the offender to test with), but at the end of the day, what would I learn by doing that? I wouldn't have had any excuse to order parts, polish, clean, fondle and test the shotgun. Don't ruin my fun by offering some simple solution that just works. :evil:

[Snarlingiron]

Ok, I know this thread has pretty much been whipped to death, but I said I would follow up with the results....
After a new Scattergun Technologies magazine spring and a new solid stainless steel machined follower from Brownells, and the thorough cleaning of the action tube and spring...

I am happy to report that the 11-87 is functioning flawlessly, even with about a box and a half of the offending Federal ammo.

Stick a fork in this one, it's done.

[another okie]

Good job eliminating variables.

[ArmedBear]

I had the opposite problem: it wouldn't lock open. A thorough cleaning fixed it. I never did figure out exactly what was preventing it from working, i.e. I never found a specific piece of dirt or a poorly-lubed part. But it works now.