.22 Long vs .22 LR


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Chester32141
March 15, 2008, 09:13 PM
I have a single shot rifle from around 1900 that says .22 short and long on the barrel ... I'm wondering if I can shoot .22 Long Rifles in it ... I've been shooting Shorts but LR are so much cheaper ... the steel of the barrel is about 3/8 in thick so I'm thinking it will handle the pressure ... what do y'all think ... :)

Chester

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Shawnee
March 15, 2008, 10:02 PM
Perhaps if you determined the model and the maker and then emailed to the maker with the description they could tell you for sure if it is safe or not.

:scrutiny:

Jubjub
March 15, 2008, 10:10 PM
The barrel wouldn't be a worry, but some of those old .22 actions were pretty flimsy designs and made from low quality steel. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable shooting high velocity shorts in some.

Another issue would be the rifling. If it's chambered for Longs, the chamber throat might not be long enough for a LR bullet. Also, the rifling twist for shorts and longs is usually 1 in 20" to 24" while long rifle is 1 in 16", so bullets might not stabilize.

Jim Watson
March 15, 2008, 10:26 PM
As Jubjub says, the twist in a .22 Short or Long barrel is 20 or 24 inches for the 29 grain bullets they are loaded with. That will not stabilize the 40 gr bullet of a long rifle. There have been a lot of nice old short shooters ruined by rechambering for long rifle. They won't shoot the long rifle and the chamber is now so long as to hurt performance with shorts.

moewadle
March 15, 2008, 11:40 PM
but would simply shoot shorts in it. Even if such an old rifle was chambered to also shoot LRs I would still just shoot shorts in the thing for safety and preservation purposes.

rangerruck
March 15, 2008, 11:54 PM
just get longs, i would not shoot lr's through it. Believe it or not, the shorts are generally hotter, and faster , than longs. They are just called longs, to fill in the space as it would in a long rifle type chamber. Even so, shorts, generally fire out of a bbl between 700 and 850 fps. Lr's make a big jump in fps and pressure over shorts, so I would not do it myself.

Chester32141
March 16, 2008, 12:44 AM
It may just be me but I can't remember seeing a box of Longs in years ! Any idea where I might find them in bulk online ? Any idea where the best price for bulk Shorts is online ? I've been shooting some I bought years ago ... I appreciate the help ... :)

Chester

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eliphalet
March 16, 2008, 01:33 AM
22LR case is longer than a long so is over all length, safety might be a issue.
If it was me, I would go over to rimfire central and ask around. Some of the most knowledgeable guys on the net are there when it comes to 22's.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/index.php?

JohnBT
March 16, 2008, 09:44 AM
I'd guess the action lockup isn't good enough to handle a bunch of LR, but that would depend on the gun and if a LR would even chamber.

I don't think there is any such thing as inexpensive .22 shorts and longs anymore. When I was a kid they were five cents or so a box cheaper than 50-cent LR.

These are almost $12 per 100, but they're CCI.

www.ammobank.com/cgi-bin/cshop/store/gaugeshow.tam?pagenumber%2Eptx=1&cartridge%5Fgauge%2Ectx=%2E22%20LONG

rcmodel
March 16, 2008, 01:15 PM
Case length of the .22 Long and .22 LR are exactly the same at .595".

The .22 Short case is .423"

CCI Stingers and some of the other "Hyper-Velocity" ammo use a longer case (702") with a lighter bullet.

Short & Long are generally loaded with 29 grain bullets.

Long Rifle with 36 grain HP, or 40 grain solids.

But I concure that the rifling twist probably will not stabilize a LR bullet.

I would also be concerned about the additional bolt-thrust generated by the heavier 40 grain LR bullet at high velocity.

I think sticking with .22 Shorts is your best & safest bet!

rcmodel

rangerruck
March 16, 2008, 01:19 PM
CCi carries long rounds all day, just get a ton of those. they are usually about 6 bucks per 100 round box.

rangerruck
March 16, 2008, 01:20 PM
oh yeah, same cost as the shorts...

22-rimfire
March 16, 2008, 01:28 PM
A point to consider is that high velocity 22 Longs were not available when that rifle was made. I'd stick with standard velocity. For me, I'd just park the rifle and shoot LR's in another gun.

351 WINCHESTER
March 16, 2008, 03:12 PM
Don't forget the pressure of a .22lr hv is pushing 24,000 psi. That's more than a +p.38 or a +p .45acp.

Chester32141
March 16, 2008, 08:27 PM
Here's a photo of the 'old girl' ... I believe it was called a Remington Boy's Rifle ... Not sure why it looks so dry, I keep it coated w/ CLP ... Thanks for the Help y'all ... :)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i258/JRB001/MVC-075F.jpg

rcmodel
March 16, 2008, 08:38 PM
No problem with a #4 Remington Rolling Block being strong enough for .22 LR.

But I imagine the rifling twist is still wrong.

If you really want to shoot Long Rifle in it, send it to Redmans and have it relined with a .22 LR liner.

http://redmansrifling.com/relining.htm

Heck, it could even become a .22 Magnum or .17 Hummer if you wanted it to!

It's plenty strong enough!

rcmodel

Chester32141
March 16, 2008, 09:22 PM
Thanks for the advice and the website ... I'll give it some consideration ... :)

rangerruck
March 17, 2008, 12:02 AM
WOW@@@!!!! a kick !@#s rolling block, why didn't you say!!! maybe a bad twist rate, but can certainly handle lr's...

JohnBT
March 17, 2008, 09:26 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/22_Long%2C_22_LR%2C_22_Winchester_Magnum.JPG

For anyone needing to see the differences.

rr2241tx
March 17, 2008, 02:29 PM
Just to comment on the photo: .22WMR is also somewhat larger diameter as it was "magnumed" from .22WRF while the .22Short was the parent of .22Long and .22Long Rifle.

boerschi
August 28, 2008, 02:13 PM
I am probably too late but just picked up a No. 4, marked short and long. Why Rem so marked is a good question, it is strong enough and mine dirves tacks with LRs.

Carl N. Brown
August 28, 2008, 03:09 PM
My son-in-law inherited an old rifle for .22 long and after
cleaning it up, I shot it with .22 CCI CB Long cartridges.
I did not dare shoot it with modern high vel shorts or longs.
It surprised me by shooting minute-of-rabbit to at least
25 yards.

As I recall, the first .22 rimfire cartridge was introduced with the
Smith & Wesson revolver in the 1850s, firing a 29 or 30 grain
bullet backed by 3 grains black powder.

Then rifle maker Frank Wesson introduced a longer case to hold
5 grains black powder behind the same 29 grain bullet in the early
1870s. The Smith&Wesson cartridge became known as the .22 Short
and the Frank Wesson cartridge became known as the .22 Long.

Then someone came up with an even longer case (about the
length of the current CCI Stinger) with a 40 grain bullet and
called it the .22 Extra Long.

Then in the early 1890s Stevens mated the 40 grain bullet
to the standard .22 Long case and called it .22 Long Rifle.

When I was a kid in the 1950s, a .22 rifle had to be marked
.22 S, L & LR or it wasn't worth having; shorts were cheaper
than longs which were cheaper than longrifles. Shorts were
used for short range or tin can plinking, Longs for medium
shots and longrifle for shots over fifty yards. The rifling
optimized for long rifle gave reasonable accuracy with short
and long, but rifling optimized for short or long is very
mediocre with long rifle.

By the 1960s at least, .22 Short High Velocity Hollowpoint
was actually hotter than most .22 Long loadings.

By the 1970s and 1980s, longrifle ammo was cheapest,
and shorts and longs were kept in limited production only
for guns specifically chambered for shorts or longs, making
longrifle the do-everything from tincan plinking to hunting
and target shooting and marginalising Short and Long as
specialty rounds.

Today most commercial .22 rifles are Long Rifle Only.

boerschi
August 28, 2008, 03:32 PM
Right, my research shows that the .22LR was introduced around 1887. My No. 4 Rolling Block is also a lever take down model and research tells me that it was therefore produced sometime between 1900 and 1910.
So, again, the question, why would Remington not provide for chambering a LR round.
Maybe this rifle does have the slower twist rate for shorts and longs, but it shoots the long rifles very well.
The Remington rolling block action is one of the strongest ever, and the slower twist rate will certainly not cause any damage, however, I will have to check that the bullet when chambered is not engaging the rifling as that would increase pressure.

mgkdrgn
August 28, 2008, 04:37 PM
One of the questions might well be =who= introduced .22lr? If it wasn't Remington, they likely didn't see any point in having their rifle chamber a competitors ammo (if they were not also producing it themselves).

If the rifle says .22 short and .22 long, then .22lr will likely =not= chamber correctly and you will not be able to use it.

Keep that one as a museum piece, or limit yourself to 22 shorts would be my advice (more the former than the latter).

elmerfudd
August 28, 2008, 08:19 PM
I'd go ahead and try some lr's in it and see if they group OK. If they don't you can always go back to the longs and you're not out anything.

Pressure shouldn't be an issue. People have made .22lr zipguns out of car antennas that apparently have held together.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
August 28, 2008, 08:52 PM
Yeah, do not shoot LRs in it - the bullet will jam into the rifling upon chambering, and (assuming that it even goes into battery) this can cause pressures to rise, which are already high with the modern LR rounds. Combine this with an old iffy action, and there could be trouble.

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