[MicroBalrog]

Just met a real, flesh-and-blood, JBT. He's at the gamer place were I go, and he basically claims to be ex-specops, current .gov security job, carries a service pistol, carries lots of badges, and everybody I know believes him on these claims.
He preaches this insane statist garbage, and everybody listens, because he won't let me argue by saying: "You're younger, I'm ex-specops, I've seen hell, and I know better.".
He also said "humans are beasts, they need strong government control".
Did I mention he's driving me nuts.?

[jsalcedo]

Does he need some friends? There are thousands I would like to send on permanent overseas assignment :evil:

[Quartus]

Uh, how about an underseas assignment, instead?

:D


Balrog, what do you mean, he won't LET you argue? Has he got some kind of authority that you must obey him? Or do you mean he just basically shouts you down? If so, he's easy meat - just point that out. Point out that he can't argue his position intelligently. Some will start to see it if you point it out. The tide will turn.


Either that, or you're hanging with a complete bunch of morons.

[MicroBalrog]

Or do you mean he just basically shouts you down?


No, he basically I've-been-through-hell-and-I-was-in-Lebanon-and-Defensive-Wall-and-everything-and-I'm-older-so-know-better's me down.:banghead:

[Moparmike]

What is a JBT?

Find a way to shut this poser up and embarrass him infront of many of his friends.

[MicroBalrog]

Find a way to shut this poser up and embarrass him infront of many of his friends.

Seemed to be a poser at first, now I'm not so sure, especially as so many of my friends believe him.

He used to be SpecOps, that's for sure, but I'm not sure how much gov.il he's right now, seems to me his claims are true on this too, can't really check.

[Roper]

JBT= jack booted thug= BATF

[Bruce H]

i don't care what he is with that attitude he needs to wake up naked handcuffed around a cactus.

[JohnBT]

JBT

:rolleyes:

JBT

[C.R.Sam]

Even if , long shot , he is real....
Sounds like he is worth ignoring.

Less stress on you.

Sam

[Duncan Idaho]

He also said "humans are beasts, they need strong government control".Wow! You have heard from a guy quoting from the American liberal playbook, and you don't like what you hear? Interesting..."If one is not a liberal at 20, one has no heart. If one is not a conservative at 40, one has no brain." former British Prime Minister Winston Churchill

[Iain]

We shall always reserve the right to bomb the ******s Also Winston Churchill. No-one can be infallible. Were you a liberal when you were 20 Duncan ;) ? To me all that quote of yours represents (English politics being slightly different) is the slide to acceptance of the status quo with advancing years.

You may regard me as a liberal but I certainly do not agree with the views of this JBT when it comes to government and the people as ''beasts''.

[gburner]

It strikes me that the 'humans are beasts; they require strong government control' comment sounds vaguely NAZI,
say from sometime in the mid 1930's,
perhaps uttered by Adolf Hitler.

This wanna be JBT is a Jew???? You need to get some like minded folks together and do the group happy dance on his scrotum. Better yet, ignore him completely and actively encourage others to do the same. He'll find what he's looking for and it won't be pleasant.:fire:

[Duncan Idaho]

Were you a liberal when you were 20 DuncanNo.To me all that quote of yours represents (English politics being slightly different) is the slide to acceptance of the status quo with advancing years.Having had the benefit of approximately twice as many years on Earth as you, what the quote represents to me is the wisdom that all of life takes effort. And that which serves justice most, is a system that doesn't use the rationalization of mob-rule to justify theft in the name of the greater good.

I grew up as an Agro-American. I saw first hand that a potato never reached our cooking pot that we didn't work to put it in there. Never did a bird/deer/rabbit/squirrel come to hand that we didn't hunt it. Never did a helping hand come, in time of trouble, that didn't have the face of a friend behind it. The face of a friend that shown with the knowledge of times past when perhaps we had come to that friend's aid, or that at the very least we understood the personal honor that comes from a sense of obligation to help one's fellow man.

By 20, I had already been in the Navy for three years. Because I had learned at the knees of my scarred family members that ours, the greatest nation that the world has ever known, came with a dear price attached, and that it would be unwise to think that "others will pay".You may regard me as a liberal but I certainly do not agree with the views of this JBT when it comes to government and the people as ''beasts''.Of that I have little doubt. But be sure to pray each and every day that the liberalism that you admire never comes to pass. Because in the end-game of liberalism; after all personal responsibility has been hijacked by the collective, after all weapons that would actually be effective in self-defense have been removed, and when all the subject/slave has left to defend him/herself is their "opinion/vote/right to expression", that it is then that your disagreement will matter least.

[Don Gwinn]

It's the return of PrettyBoy!

He's a SEEL. If he was an elite soldier and now he spends all his time yelling at a bunch of teenagers playing Rainbow Six in a chat room, well, that's sad.

[Art Eatman]

St Johns, with your Churchill quote, it seems you equate it to today's usage. In Churchill's learning-years, the word was far less pejorative than it ever was in the US southern states or in modern times. I'm not at all saying it wasn't racist--but it didn't have the (what?) "viciousness"?

Words gotta be looked at in the context of their times, as well as in an entire paragraph...As example, "well regulated"...

:), Art

[S_O_Laban]

atta boy Art:D :D Excellent point, (context) that is often overlooked by many.

[PATH]

Getting back to our faux,(yes it is a french word),JBT spec-op guy.
Sounds like a candidate for the mall ninja academy! I hear this crap from escapees from the home for the perpetually bewildered as well as wannabees!

You can usually pick up in two minutes or less that they are so full of.......
that their shoes squish when they walk. I avoid them religiously!

[BB93YJ]

Ummmm, ahem.... It's been my experience that the men that have really
"been there, done that", generally are the least likely to talk about it.
Example, my dad, was a U.S. Army Captain, Medical Corps, from Normandy to Berlin, Silver Star, Bronze Star, Russian Red Star, Purple Heart, etc, etc, never had a lot to say about the whole thing.

Brother in law was a U.S. Army Ranger, Viet Nam, 1966-67. Never talks about it.

Your hotshot specops spook dude, doubt it.:rolleyes:

[MicroBalrog]

If he was an elite soldier and now he spends all his time yelling at a bunch of teenagers playing Rainbow Six in a chat room, well, that's sad.

What?:what:

I'd don't play Rainbow Six. Once a week, you see, all the gamers/role-players/sci-fi addicts in the 50-mile radius converge upon a single park in Tel-Aviv. Many of them (as this is Israel) are ex-military, and at least a few are/were in Golani, Givati, a few where in Defensive Wall or similar events.

The guy rarely ever tells stories of his "military life", except one story I rembember (in which nobody was shot). What strikes me is that everybody believes him.:what:

[Iain]

Hang on Art, criticising my quote for context and not any other quote for context is a bit much. That quote was made in reference to the Middle East situation which Britain was responsible for at the time. Makes the quote worse. To criticise Duncan's quote for context, Churchill was likely talking about different ''liberalism'' and ''conservatism'' than we understand by those terms today.

Back to Duncan, understand what you are saying Duncan. Some of my experiences are not dissimilar, some are so dissimilar as to make us inhabitants of a separate planet. Be nice to understand each other - or not? My brand of ''liberalism'' (if we must call it that) does not involve removal of all personal responsibility and the people as ''slaves''. That ''political map'' test that was posted on here put me as a ''centrist'', vertically on dead centre, horizontally nearly into the West. The divide of lib/con isn't simple, or even in existance.

MB - this guy is just a poser, remind him - at the potential risk of embarrassment to yourself - that he is a ''gamer/rp'er/sci fi addict.'' ;)

[Tamara]

Control freaks are welcome to tell me what to do 'til they're blue in the face.

Good luck getting me to comply, though... ;)

[El Tejon]

That's what the BoP is for!:D

[Waitone]

Micro,

Never, ever teach a pig how to sing. First, you waste your time, second, you irritate the pig.

[MicroBalrog]

That's what the BoP is for

What's the BoP?

[Tamara]

When constant monitoring by armed men is the only way to ensure compliance with a law, I think it speaks reams about the law in question, don't you? ;)

[longeyes]

"Having had the benefit of approximately twice as many years on Earth as you,
what the quote represents to me is the wisdom that all of life takes effort. And
that which serves justice most, is a system that doesn't use the rationalization of
mob-rule to justify theft in the name of the greater good.

I grew up as an Agro-American. I saw first hand that a potato never reached our
cooking pot that we didn't work to put it in there. Never did a
bird/deer/rabbit/squirrel come to hand that we didn't hunt it. Never did a helping
hand come, in time of trouble, that didn't have the face of a friend behind it. The
face of a friend that shown with the knowledge of times past when perhaps we
had come to that friend's aid, or that at the very least we understood the
personal honor that comes from a sense of obligation to help one's fellow man.

By 20, I had already been in the Navy for three years. Because I had learned at
the knees of my scarred family members that ours, the greatest nation that the
world has ever known, came with a dear price attached, and that it would be
unwise to think that "others will pay"."

One of the most compelling statements I've read on THR about what we need to keep alive.

[Duncan Idaho]

Some of my experiences are not dissimilar, some are so dissimilar as to make us inhabitants of a separate planet. Be nice to understand each other - or not?What would you like to know? My brand of ''liberalism'' (if we must call it that) does not involve removal of all personal responsibility and the people as ''slaves''. That ''political map'' test that was posted on here put me as a ''centrist'', vertically on dead centre, horizontally nearly into the West. The divide of lib/con isn't simple, or even in existance.How would you describe "your brand of liberalism"?

Feel free to start a new thread so this one doesn't get hijacked.

[pax]

You may regard me as a liberal but I certainly do not agree with the views of this JBT when it comes to government and the people as ''beasts''.

St Johns --

If men are 'beasts' and cannot be trusted to govern even themselves, they certainly cannot be entrusted with the government of others.

pax

None can love freedom heartily but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license which never hath more scope than under tyrants. -- John Milton, 1649

[Iain]

Pax - I never said that.

Duncan - I will at some point, there is some formulating of thought going on (you people are a challenge, an appreciated challenge). Presently I am taking a break from watching Lawrence of Arabia.

[Justin]

Micro-

You should just roll your eyes like this: :rolleyes:

Then tell him that Hobbesian philosophy is soooooooo 1655.

[pax]

St Johns,

I understood that you were disagreeing with the 'beast' statement.

Though my post was confusing (sorry 'bout dat), I was simply extending what you said. You said you don't agree with him that men are untrustworthy beasts, to which I added that if men cannot be trusted to govern themselves, nor can they be trusted with the gov't of others.

I suppose I should have responded only to the original words, but the man who said those words is not here. I chose to respond to you as you are here and he is not; and because I wondered what you, as one who believes in intrusive gov't, would say to my follow-on logic.

Can people be trusted to govern themselves, or can they not?

pax

[Iain]

Feel like I am walking through bear traps answering this one.

Yes, they can. Most of the time. Government seems to exist because it is part of a fundamental need to structure society. There have always been chiefs, elders and ''big men'' and their role has always encompassed authority, respect and control. A major role of society is in dispute settling, and a major role of authority figures has been to establish and define a cultures norms within the dispute settlement. Had I paid more attention in anthropology I would be able to furnish you with examples.

How does a society composed of the individual and the ''you and yours'' mentality resolve disputes?

You stated that I believe in ''intrusive government'', and I assume that you have deduced this Holmes-style from my use of the word ''liberal''. I have never stated that I believe in ''intrusive government'', ideally I agree with many of the ideas espoused by people here.

if men cannot be trusted to govern themselves, nor can they be trusted with the gov't of others.

A statement I agree with. I do not trust the politicians who run this country, neither do most of my compatriots. Free open honest democracy, with a plurality of political parties would be my ideal. I also do genuinely believe in some socialist ideas, Aneurin Bevin's truly magnificient work has left this country some fantastic legacies. Free-at-the-point-of-use healthcare, where none are left without emergency or long-term care where needed is a wonder.

It has also left us a bureaucracy to rival Brussels, a large and powerful government with a huge sweeping majority. The NHS is a slow and lumbering beast, difficult to reform and underfunded in many cases.

I am no idealist, I see it as part of my character to critique and establish the negatives in all situations. I also see it is part of my character to try to establish the reality of a situation, I often fail, but to try and objectively see a problem and the failure of the ideologies to overcome it is part of me.

I see failures in all the ideologies, I see failures in all those who rigidly stick to their ideologies, their partisan political allegiances in the face of the facts.

Can I reverse the statement - ''If men cannot be trusted to govern others, can they be trusted to govern themselves?''

Also ''If men cannot be trusted to try to objectively examine an idea on it's own merit and not the merit of the total system that espouses it, can they be trusted to enact the best solution to any given situation?'' It is very easy to dismiss another on the basis of his label (a label often applied by the examiner rather than the examinee - such as ''liberal''), rather examine the essence of his ideas case by case. That is what I am trying to do here.

[Selfdfenz]

Micro,
Possible comment lines:

"You're younger, I'm ex-specops, I've seen hell, and I know better.".
Yeh, and I pay taxes and vote. And please stop confusing me with someone that gives a rat's a-- what you've seen.

He also said "humans are beasts, they need strong government control".
Suggest he missed his calling as an SS camp guard at a concentration camp. He's a Nazi.

S-

[Ian Sean]

When constant monitoring by armed men is the only way to ensure compliance with a law, I think it speaks reams about the law in question, don't you?

Thats good, I will be using that line, is there a source for who said it?

My personal experience with people who have "been there and done that" is that they don't advertise and are usually pretty quiet about it. I met a great many of these Vets growing up in a military town with going to functions at the VFW and American Legion posts on a regular basis.

I'm 34 now and it was only about 7 years ago I found out my dad (retired Army) had a bronze star from combat in Korea.

[Tamara]

Thats good, I will be using that line, is there a source for who said it?

Actually, I did. :)

[MicroBalrog]

Go Tamara! We need a THR Tamaraisms Archive!:neener:

[morganm01]

I never heard of any SF guys that were gamers, or felt the need to impress a bunch of other gamers for any reason. Don't waste time arguing with this guy about anything. Just ask him to tell you about how he saved the planet as a top secret specops operator in 'nam and everywhere else and how now all those top secret missions are so common and boring to him now so he plays video games for entertainment. Thats hardore.

[MicroBalrog]

video games for entertainment.

Again, not video games, see above.