New Jersey legal AK-47. Is this possible?


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BATTLESUIT
March 16, 2008, 07:20 PM
:banghead:In New Jersey, long arms can not have pistol grips. I've looked at the AK-47, and it seems that the pistol grip and stock are two different pieces. The trigger also looks too far from the back end to install a non-pistol style stock. Does anyone have any insight as to whether this type of modification is possible, and if so, would you know a smith that could and would do it?:banghead:

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almostfree
March 16, 2008, 07:24 PM
What about one of these? It is a saiga 7.62x39 and it doesn't have a pistol grip on it. They are relatively inexpensive. The trigger is further back on it then a regular AK, but with a little work and understanding of federal parts compliance laws it can be converted to pistol grip should you ever leave NJ.

Anteater1717
March 16, 2008, 07:24 PM
What about a thumb hole style stock.

almostfree
March 16, 2008, 07:28 PM
Yeah, a thumb hole stock would be better if you can get away with it.

BATTLESUIT
March 16, 2008, 07:47 PM
Saiga. I've seen these but I don't know a whole lot about them. Is this a version of an AK-47? Does it fire the same ammunition as the 47 and does it have the 47s stubborn reliability?

I'm also not familiar with a thumb hole stock. I'm going to look into it. Do you have any more information?

The information so far is helpful and appreciated. Thanks to everyone! Keep it coming!

LKB3rd
March 16, 2008, 08:00 PM
Google "saiga with skeleton stock" . Saiga's are "sporterized" AK's and are as reliable and rugged as most any other ak. They are made in Russia, at the factory where I believe Mikhail Kalashnikov still works as a consultant or something like that.
I have one in .308, and I only have 200 rounds through it so far, but I am enjoying it a lot. They also make them in .223 and 7.62 x 39.
The trigger group is farther back than a standard ak, and they can be had in a straight stock or "skeleton stock" version. The skeleton stock is a little bit short for my taste, and I plan to convert mine to the standard ak configuration. It does however give you the function of a pistol grip, while not technically being a pistol grip.
The receivers are just modified ak receivers, and many people convert them to the standard ak configuration, as the holes are there in the receiver, just covered up with a riveted plate.
http://forum.saiga-12.com/

everallm
March 17, 2008, 02:07 PM
Battlesuit,

You CAN have a pistol grip on a rifle in NJ, it's the number of "evil" features that are relevant.

However in general your AK falls into the "substantially identical" element as an evil assault weapon. This means a no-no. The Saiga should be OK as would an SKS with a FIXED magazine.

Easiest way to know for sure is to get to over your local gunstore and ask nicely what they can sell you...8-)

BammaYankee
March 18, 2008, 08:13 PM
I was born and raised in NJ, and my advice to your situation is to MOVE! :evil:

rangerruck
March 18, 2008, 08:28 PM
Saiga is ak, made in russia, made in the origional factory, but with sporter furniture. should be perfectly legal in NJ.

Shrinkmd
March 18, 2008, 10:01 PM
Sarco sells the WASR-10 in single and double stack versions. I looked at them, and they really look like junk. I'd rather have an SKS in the garden state. I know Sarco is not a law firm, but I don't think they would sell something which could close down their business.

Antipasta
March 18, 2008, 10:09 PM
I've never seen a Saiga at the range here in NJ (not the definitive answer to your question). Are they magazine feed? If so, are they over 15 rounds?

MD_Willington
March 19, 2008, 01:37 PM
Yes, you can buy US made magazines for the Saiga all the way up to 47 round magazines.

tbtrout
March 19, 2008, 08:38 PM
If it is politically incorrect and legal in NJ Brick Armory sells it. They sell WASR's and Saiga's. Give them a call.

GRIZ22
March 19, 2008, 10:22 PM
In New Jersey, long arms can not have pistol grips.

The "bad" things for a semi-auto long gun in NJ are:

1. pistol grips
2. ability to accept mags over 15rds
3. flash surpressor
4. folding stock
5. bayonet stud

You can have any two but three make it an assault weapon.

There are many pistol grip long guns sold in NJ, WASRs, Hi Points, AR type rifles, etc

If you have a pump shotgun you can have pistol grips, folding stocks, bayonet studs, or whatever you want.

There are restrictions on semi-auto shotguns. Go to NJSP.org click firearms info and follow the links for your answers.

BATTLESUIT
March 19, 2008, 11:27 PM
Brick armory. Does anyone have a number for them? I asked a vet that I work with today, and he told me that an AK-47 is legal in The Garden State. I'm going to do a little more digging, but I think all the information here pretty much covers it. Thanks everybody.

Bulldog500
March 20, 2008, 06:00 AM
Here ya go..


http://www.brickarmoryllc.com/

Ash
March 20, 2008, 08:00 AM
The Mag restriction gets it. If a firearm has a detachable magazine, it is capable of accepting a magazine with capacity greater than 15 rounds. Though nobody makes one for my Mossberg 810, it has a detachable mag and so is capable of taking a trench mag if somebody wants to make one. So, you can have a pistol grip but nothing else. A bayonet stud (lug) is of no consequence. A folding stock might be nice for storage, but it isn't a big deal, either. The flash-suppressor might be nice, but use a muzzlebreak and life is okay.

BUT, a pistol-gripped Siaga could quickly fit into the quacking like a duck category. Might have to live with the hunter stock (and then, with wicked abandon, mount a flash-suppressor (or, just to be even more evil, mount a bayonet lug - useless but a flipping of the finger).

Ash

BGreen
May 7, 2008, 11:45 AM
Most of the information regarding firearms laws in NJ posted here is incorrect. Please contact a NJ firearms lawyer such as Nappen and you will surprised to hear what he has to say.

BATTLESUIT
May 7, 2008, 08:16 PM
I don't want to have to contact a freaking lawyer to find out the damn gun laws in Jersey. I went on several law enforcement pages as well, none had a comprehensive list of dos and don'ts. I guess I should just fly to Mexico and get my Mexican citizenship. Then, I can come back up here and do whatever the hell I want.:cuss:

W.E.G.
May 7, 2008, 09:22 PM
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/NoHiCapChemSpray.pdf

"New Jersey prohibits the manufacture, transport, shipment, sale or disposal of large capacity ammunition magazines, unless the magazine is intended to be used for authorized military or law enforcement purposes. N.J. Rev. Stat § 2C:399h. New Jersey law defines “large capacity ammunition magazine” as a box, drum, tube or other container which is capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly into a semiautomatic firearm.
Section 2C:391y"

W.E.G.
May 7, 2008, 09:28 PM
http://tinyurl.com/3hg5gn


(UPDATED THROUGH P.L. 2008, ch. 16)
TITLE 2C THE NEW JERSEY CODE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE
2C:39-3. Prohibited weapons and devices

Any person who knowingly has in his possession a large capacity ammunition magazine is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree unless the person has registered an assault firearm pursuant to section 11 of P.L.1990, c.32 (C.2C:58-12) and the magazine is maintained and used in connection with participation in competitive shooting matches sanctioned by the Director of Civilian Marksmanship of the United States Department of the Army.

jdc1244
May 7, 2008, 09:36 PM
I don't want to have to contact a freaking lawyer to find out the damn gun laws in Jersey.

We feel your pain, but you yourself note the problem:

I went on several law enforcement pages as well, none had a comprehensive list of dos and don'ts.

If you can’t find the information online – and don’t take the advice of this or any other online forum – you’ll need to contact if not a lawyer then some NJ legal professional knowledgeable about your state’s gun laws if you want to be safe and sure.

mio
May 7, 2008, 09:40 PM
griz22

bayonet stud? are they worried about mass mall bayonetings?

W.E.G.
May 7, 2008, 09:44 PM
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/agguide/assltf.htm

New Jersey law lists firearms that are prohibited "assault firearms." N.J.S.A. 2C:39-1w.(1). In addition, the law provides that the term "assault firearm" includes, "Any firearm manufactured under any designation which is substantially identical to any of the firearms listed" in the law. N.J.S.A. 2C:39-1w.(2). Thus, a firearm is an assault firearm if it is included on the list of banned firearms or if it is manufactured under a different designation than a firearm on the list but is "substantially identical" to a specific listed firearm.

We believe "substantially identical" is clear by its plain meaning. The Criminal Code provides that the statutes in the Code must be read "according to the fair import of their terms." N.J.S.A. 2C:1-2c. The Criminal Code explains that where language may be susceptible to different readings it must be construed to "give fair warning of the nature of the conduct proscribed." N.J.S.A. 2C:1-2a.(4), c. Simply put, the phrase "substantially identical" must be given its plain meaning, one that gives fair warning.

The term "substantial" means pertaining to the substance, matter, material or essence of a thing. The term "identical" means exactly the same. Hence, a firearm is substantially identical to another only if it is identical in all material, essential respects. A firearm is not substantially identical to a listed assault firearm unless it is identical except for differences which do not alter the essential nature of the firearm.

The following are examples of manufacturer changes that do not alter the essential nature of the firearm: name or designation of the firearm; the color of the firearm; the material used to make the barrel or stock of the firearm; the material used to make a pistol grip; a modification of a pistol grip. This is not an exclusive list.

A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be "substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it meets the below listed criteria:

A. semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:

1. a folding or telescoping stock;
2. a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
3. a bayonet mount;
4. a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
5. a grenade launcher;

B. a semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:

1. an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
2. a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
3. a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;
4. manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and
5. a semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm; and,

C. a semi-automatic shotgun that has at least 2 of the following:

1. a folding or telescoping stock;
2. a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
3. a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
4. an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

W.E.G.
May 7, 2008, 09:54 PM
Seems to me the neutered WASR passes muster in NJ so long as it is not equipped with a magazine capable of more than 15 rounds, and it has only a pistol grip.

No folding stock, bayonet lug, threaded muzzle, or grenade launcher.

The magazine issue seems to be primarily a magazine issue, and not so much an issue impacting the analysis of whether the rifle can be defined as a New Jersey "assault weapon."

TexasRifleman
May 7, 2008, 09:55 PM
Sure.....even comes with laser sight.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:Wvl9nvn-lW1K9M:http://uk.gizmodo.com/PS-52.jpg


Sorry :)

W.E.G.
May 7, 2008, 09:55 PM
griz22

bayonet stud? are they worried about mass mall bayonetings?

Its "the thing that goes up."

tbtrout
May 7, 2008, 11:54 PM
The State police website has info. I have also called the State Police Firearms unit in Trenton. Each time they have been corteous and helpful.

meef
May 8, 2008, 01:23 AM
I don't want to have to contact a freaking lawyer to find out the damn gun laws in Jersey.:scrutiny:

Everyone please stop replying and trying to offer advice.

You're irritating the gentleman.

:cool:

TexasRifleman
May 8, 2008, 08:52 AM
Everyone please stop replying and trying to offer advice.

You're irritating the gentleman.

Oh I think he's frustrated with New Jersey not us.

Can't say I blame him. It's almost like they intentionally make it cloudy and vague so they can arrest you "if they want to" for just about any firearms violation.

This is the same state (along with New York) that ignores FOPA don't forget.

Unfortunately the best thing to do would probably be to stay away from anything that might remotely peak the New Jersey LE's interest.

I would be afraid of just about anything AK like unless I had something in writing or a VERY good lawyer told me it was OK.

Owlnmole
May 8, 2008, 09:41 AM
I did some digging and here is the original list of banned weapons:


Algimec AGM1 type
Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder such as the "Street Sweeper" or "Striker 12"
Armalite AR-180 type
Australian Automatic Arms SAR
Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms
Beretta AR-70 and BM59 semi-automatic firearms
Bushmaster Assault Rifle
Calico M-900 Assault carbine and M-900
CETME G3
Chartered Industries of Singapore SR-88 type
Colt AR-15 and CAR-15 series
Daewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1 and Max 2, AR 100 types
Demro TAC-1 carbine type
Encom MP-9 and MP-45 carbine types
FAMAS MAS223 types
FN-FAL, FN-LAR, or FN-FNC type semi-automatic firearms
Franchi SPAS 12 and LAW 12 shotguns
G3SA type
Galil type Heckler and Koch HK91, HK93, HK94, MP5, PSG-1
Intratec TEC 9 and 22 semi-automatic firearms
M1 carbine type
M14S type
MAC 10, MAC 11, MAC 11-9mm carbine type firearms
PJK M-68 carbine type
Plainfield Machine Company Carbine
Ruger K-Mini-14/5F and Mini-14/5RF
SIG AMT, SIG 550SP, SIG 551SP, SIG PE-57 types
SKS with detachable magazine type
Spectre Auto carbine type
Springfield Armory BM59 and SAR-48 type
Sterling MK-6, MK-7 and SAR types
Steyr A.U.G. semi-automatic firearms
USAS 12 semi-automatic type shotgun
Uzi type semi-automatic firearms
Valmet M62, M71S, M76, or M78 type semi-automatic firearms
Weaver Arm Nighthawk.


And the aforementioned generic criteria:

A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be "substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it meets the below listed criteria:

A. semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:

1. a folding or telescoping stock;
2. a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
3. a bayonet mount;
4. a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
5. a grenade launcher

Clearly, this was drawn up by lawyers who knew little about guns. A few thoughts:


What the heck is an Algimec AGM1 type?
It's absolutely bizarre that they banned the M1 Carbine that you can order from ODCMP, fer crissake.
FAMAS?!? Since when has the Foreign Legion been a model for New Jersey gangbangers?
SKS with the original fixed magazine is perfectly fine, bayonet and all, though it needs to be a non-Yugo without the grenade launcher (or buy a CA-legal one with the GL removed)
Get a Garand and lots of en bloc clips, that's still legal
A Saiga is definitely legal as it has none of the specific features to be "substantially identical." You could even add one "freebie" - pistol grip OR folding stock (tough without the former, but look at Kel Tec SU-16) OR flash hider OR bayonet lug - and still be OK. Realistically, that means you could get the skeleton stock without having to worry about whether or not the lawyers think it's a pistol grip.
I still can't believe they banned the M1 Carbine


In short, get a Saiga, get lots of Saigas, tell all your friends to get lots of Saigas, just because you still can!

TexasRifleman
May 8, 2008, 09:51 AM
What the heck is an Algimec AGM1 type?

Pretty damn obscure. Can't imagine there are many of these around...
It's a silly list for sure.

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/3000/3009.htm

Owlnmole
May 8, 2008, 10:58 AM
Cool, thanks for the link, it's like a bullpup Ruger PC9, I like it. I love how, 70 years later, you can still tell that it's an Italian design by the 1930s Berretta SMG-style compensator cuts in the barrel near the muzzle.

LKB3rd
May 8, 2008, 11:29 AM
In CT we have an assault weapons ban, which sounds the same as the New Jersey one. So, a semi auto rifle can only have a pistol grip if it has no folding or telescoping stock, no flash supressor, no bayonet mount, no grenade launcher, if it has a detachable magazine. If it has one of the other features, then it can't have the pistol grip. One of those features only.
The Saiga in .308 gets past the "substantially identical" argument relative to an AK because according to the definition of an AK, it fires 7.62x39. So, a
.223 , .308, or 5.45x39 rifle is not an "AK type."

geekWithA.45
May 8, 2008, 11:38 AM
TexasRifleman: Slingshots are felonies in NJ. Seriously. Not kidding.

Everyone else:

There's a lot of inaccurate statements of NJ law in this thread, and some accurate statements.

I don't want to have to contact a freaking lawyer to find out the damn gun laws in Jersey.

I'm sorry, but considering that people have been convicted of felonious possession of an "assault weapon" for owning unregistered tube fed magazine .22lr autoloaders, (a Model 60, IIRC), you do need to have a really good grasp of what's in, what's out, and why, because in New Jersey, "When dealing with guns, the citizen acts at his peril." (NJ v. Pelleteri)

Please see this recent, parallel thread on NJ AWB:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=361486


Pay attention to the posts of Tom488 and myself.

phoglund
May 8, 2008, 12:00 PM
All this talk and looking through the laws on purchasing any firearm in New Jersey has given me the urge to go out and buy the evilest AK-47 clone I can find...just because I can!

I lived in NJ as a kid and am now pleased more than ever I left many years ago.

"Firearms Purchaser ID Card" ??? ***? :fire: :fire: :banghead:

delta53
May 9, 2008, 01:49 PM
the gun laws in NJ have become mine field for the legal citizen once the police come to you house or pull you over they use there bag of encripted gun laws to take your guns,you or both back to there club house and let you get a lawyer to try and clear youself. to stay out of jail you have to almoust become a lawyer. Remember were the domestic violence law was born right here a back door way to get your guns.this state makes me sick .:cuss:

HGUNHNTR
May 9, 2008, 02:31 PM
In jersey the letters themselves (AK or MAK) can get you into trouble. In this ridiculous state it has even less to do with features than you may think. H#^^ I bet you could go to prison if you had a kleenex box with the letters AK printed on the side.:barf:

Yes, I do have personal first hand experience with NJ laws and their incorrect interpretation. A word of wisdom, don't even try to find a legal AK variant, you will undoubtedly be arrested and have to spend money defending yourself even if you are not in the wrong. ie. IT cost me $3500.

Its not worth it, either move or find a different toy.

if you have legal questions concerning firearms in NJ contact Evan Nappen attorney at Law.
He is the best NJ has to offer.

amram
May 17, 2009, 08:44 PM
I tried to make a frigging appointment with him -- to pay for his time and expertise -- in order to ask questions before I purchased (yet another weapon). His office did not want to make an appointment for me! I was incredulous, so I wrote another nice email and got nowhere. A third email that contained some specifics questions got me an boiler-plate answer worthy of your standard responses on many of the boards -- nothing new, no insights that I _wanted_ to pay for. Can't really figure out what the deal is what that firm. Probably they just want to speak with you after you've been indicted, cause that's where the big bucks are -- trials, not an hour's conference with someone who want's to avoid violating the law. BTW, it was his son who responded to me in the name of the firm. I would recommend another outfit.

belial1982
November 16, 2009, 09:45 PM
yes a wasr10 ak-47 is legal i recently bought one from my local FFL. dealer in new jersey

delta53
November 17, 2009, 06:43 PM
I think a MAK90 is legal and a case has been brought to court to prove it that would be your best bet but there are others that get around the laws I have been to gun shows in Pa that have cases of guns that are marketed for NJ citizens just ask the FFL sellers @ Harrisburg,PA

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 17, 2009, 11:52 PM
Clearly, this was drawn up by lawyers who knew little about guns.

Clearly, this was drawn up by staffers of lawmakers, on the advice of the Brady Campaign bigshots - staffers who may or may not have gone to law school but never practiced law a day in their life in private practice..

Fixed it for ya. If they had, they'd probably have been exposed to enough crimlaw to know the difference between a barrel shroud and a shoulder thing that goes up.

T.R. - the word is "pique" or "piqued" - :).

PTR-91 Guy
December 21, 2009, 07:20 AM
Ilive in NJ and just bought a legal assault rifle. the following criteria must be met in order to be legal:

No flash hider
No Bayonet lug
Max. Mag. capacity = 5 rounds

Single or double receivers don't matter

Golden_006
December 21, 2009, 09:58 AM
Why don't you just move to Long island? I still have no idea why anyone who care about firearms lives in New Jersey. Or for that matter why anyone lives in New Jersey period.

anbwbm
February 17, 2010, 06:56 PM
The reason behind banning the bayonet mounts/"grenade launchers"/et al is not because they're afraid of people running around slashing others, or actually launching grenades, but by banning these, the supply of firearms that you can 'legally' own in NJ becomes much much smaller. The ones that are deemed to be 'legal' by the corrupt politicians will cost a lot more, and will hinder some people from buying them. If you can still afford it, you are just punished financially for exercising your rights. Period. It's the same with machine guns. Just needs $200 tax, lots of forms, but it's legal. Catch is it has to be made before 1986. Not that there's any difference between one made in '86 and one made in '87, but it limits the supply, thus significantly increasing the cost. Makes it that much harder to own. That's their way of controlling the citizens and restricting their right to keep and bear arms. NJ is a disgusting state. Highest taxes in the country, most corruption, high rate of crime, high restriction of God-given rights. Can't wait to move out as soon as I have a chance.

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