Best Army Rifle


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Firepower!
March 17, 2008, 02:02 PM
Which do you think is the best army rifle made in the modern era?

Thanks

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Vern Humphrey
March 17, 2008, 02:13 PM
Current issue variants of the M16 are head-and-shoulders above everything else.

I'd rather have the M14, but when you add up all the gear the modern infantryman carries, it's just too heavy.

iamkris
March 17, 2008, 02:23 PM
SIG series. Reliability of the AK heritage with more user-friendly features of western (e.g., a la M16/M4) weapons.

I love me MBRs but I don't believe the M14/FAL/G3 are appropriate for a general issue weapon these days.

Evil Monkey
March 17, 2008, 03:06 PM
Anything that has AK/SVD internals with m16 ergonomics. The closest weapon to that description is the SIG550.

Heavy Metal Hero
March 17, 2008, 03:11 PM
This topic...again?

GTSteve03
March 17, 2008, 03:39 PM
For intermediate calibers, #1 Sig 550 with the AK a close #2.

For rifle calibers, the HK G3 and FN FAL share #1.

Walkalong
March 17, 2008, 03:49 PM
I'd rather have the M14, but when you add up all the gear the modern infantryman carries, it's just too heavy.Very good point. I voted M14 even though I knew it was not viable these days. I just think it's the best action. M16 probably is the better combat rifle.

NG VI
March 17, 2008, 03:51 PM
AUG. Just cause I love them.

slzy
March 17, 2008, 04:12 PM
has any nation built its own m16 ,except the US?

Halo
March 17, 2008, 05:06 PM
has any nation built its own m16 ,except the US?

Canada produces a licensed copy of the M16, but I can't remember what it's called right off hand. It retained the full auto capability that the US version no longer has. The Canadian version is also used by the Netherlands and Denmark.

Vern Humphrey
March 17, 2008, 05:24 PM
has any nation built its own m16 ,except the US?
Charter Industries of Singapore (CIS) produces M16 and their version of the FM Minimag (the M249).

ExSoldier
March 17, 2008, 05:27 PM
H&K 416 is an UPGRADE to the M16 and has been purchased in volume by USSOCOM for Special Ops troops.

ExSoldier
March 17, 2008, 05:28 PM
IIRC, Fabrique Nationale has an M16 contract.

azhunter12
March 17, 2008, 05:30 PM
Ak types

mgregg85
March 17, 2008, 05:30 PM
I'd take the m14 if I had someone else to carry all my ammo for me.

Funderb
March 17, 2008, 05:36 PM
mosin nagant??

R.W.Dale
March 17, 2008, 06:00 PM
1886 Lebel

Deer Hunter
March 17, 2008, 06:01 PM
Spencer repeating carbine.

Evil Monkey
March 17, 2008, 06:03 PM
I'd rather have the M14, but when you add up all the gear the modern infantryman carries, it's just too heavy.

Then how about a Mini-14? LOL:D

I've seen some sick looking mini-14 rifles that look like MK14's.

Vern Humphrey
March 17, 2008, 06:09 PM
In what way would a Mini-14 be superior to the current M16 family?

Evil Monkey
March 17, 2008, 06:22 PM
In what way would a Mini-14 be superior to the current M16 family?

You said you'd rather have a m14 but it was going to be heavy. I was thinking that with a 5.56mm version of the M14, the mini-14, the weight of the weapon and ammo load would be reduced. However, you'd still have the action of the M14, which I suspect many people and yourself like better than the M16's.

To answer your question directly, while both have features better than each other, I personally don't think the mini-14 is in any way superior to the M16. Other opinions may vary.

hso
March 17, 2008, 07:51 PM
Lessee,

We have battle rifles mixed in with assault rifles.

We have rifles that have been in combat mixed in with rifles that have seen no, or next to no, combat.

We have rifles that are designs that are over 50 years old in with rifles that are based on designs less than 20 years old.

And, we have no definition of what criteria are to be used or what type of conflict they'll be used in.



The question is overly simple. Even in today's high tempo conflict we see US troops using the M4 and the M14. One a compact assault rifle, the other a full size battle rifle. Each has it's applications. Each is suitable for different combat environments. Each is the "best" rifle for what it is intended for. What about the AK then? Isn't it best when used by poorly trained, poorly equipped guerrillas who can't clean it operating in dirty environments even though it lacks the accuracy of the M4? Isn't the FAL best compared to the M14 because it eats almost any crappy ammo made and still maintains reasonable accuracy?

"Best" is dependent upon what parameters have to be met.

taliv
March 17, 2008, 07:55 PM
...we must be on the internet!

xd9fan
March 17, 2008, 08:40 PM
its hard to argue against the AK.....even if you hate them..

trbon8r
March 17, 2008, 08:46 PM
Just to complicate the issue further I'll throw in a vote for the Beretta BM 59. ;)

Lobotomy Boy
March 17, 2008, 09:34 PM
I'm sure there will be better rifles in the future, but for all its flaws, there is no rifle currently in service that is better than an M4. Try humping a big, fat M14 for 50 miles, or an FN-FAL or any other .308 caliber battle rifle. If the Sigs are so great, why are so many people having problems with the 556? The AKs have a lot going for them, too, but show me one country that can afford M4s and has access to them that still chooses the AKs.

Elm Creek Smith
March 18, 2008, 01:26 AM
Springfield Armory M1A Socom 16. If you can't take a man down with it, you can beat him to death.

ECS

Firepower!
March 18, 2008, 02:52 AM
has any nation built its own m16 ,except the US?


Taiwan and China has close copies

Don't Tread On Me
March 18, 2008, 03:38 AM
Totally absurd that the M14 would have as many votes as the AK.

Just goes to show that Internet forum polls are totally worthless.

M14 was in service in how many nations? LOL. It was one of the shortest serving service rifle in American history. M14 lovers don't like to hear that. Sure, it's been used since - even today in some roles in Iraq, but it's not the rifle issued to the infantry is it? Nope.

If that is a measure of its greatness, then there are many arms that have been used in special roles that could qualify too.

One could argue that it was basically obsolete the day it was introduced. Compared to what other nations were developing (like the AK).

The M14 represents nothing more than the establishment's inability to accept change. Top brass not liking anything that doesn't look like what they've been used to and what they've used for 50+ years.

They essentially tried to have both an assault rifle and a full fledged "battle rifle" in one package.

Just doesn't work.

Firepower!
March 18, 2008, 04:45 AM
Here is the explanation which rifle I voted for and did not vote for and why.

1. AK 47. I voted for it, because it is most reliable service rifle evert made in the history so far. It is very easy to operation and clean. There is virtually no maintainance required for it. The bullet it uses is suffcient for various platforms. I also like the compact AKSU version because it pack remarkable power in SMG size weapon. Ak47 is just awesome in many ways. In Saichin, one of the highest military check post in the world lies in Pakistan on the border of India in Kashmir. There AK47 proved itself superior to any other weapon. This is it unquestionable reliablity in sub zero temperature, whereas M16 and G3 consistantly jammed there. In 1998-99 Kargil War it was used by Pakistani army to win against India against all odds due to the conditions at hand there.

2. M16. I did not vote for. This is because although I like the rifle it has its flaws. It requires cleaning more than any other weapon I have used so far. I have to give that the select fire is very smooth on this. I like the M4, and own a few in select fire, but cleaning is a problem especially for me, since these weapons are used by my guards and I cannot micro manage thier cleaning habbits- I can check once a month on them. If the question was for personal use, I would have definately voted for it.

3. M14. I did not vote for. As correctly stated by Mr. Dont Tread On Me, it had a short service life with US limited experience. Furthermore, I think it is reliable but somewhat clumsy. And given that 7.62 NATO platform, there are better options available then M14. I mean M14 is just a carry over from M1 Garand, which was a great rifle of its time.

4. AUG. I voted for it. Simply because I handled one and was very impressed by its select fire mechanism which lies in half or full trigger pull. In addition to the fact that it was one of the first of bullpup military designs. In service in many countries including Australian Amry.

5. HK G3. I voted for it. It is the best 7.62 platform I have ever used. It is solid reliable and durable. I like HK roller back system. It has served in the armies of many countries including my own, Pakistan, where its produced; and has served well.

6. FN FAL. Did not vote for. Although good rifle, but I compared it with G3 and preferred G3 over it. When fired both, I liked how G3 handled itself in select fire.

7. Galil. Did not vote for. I understand that it is one the very though out weapons made since it employs quite a few systems from various rifles. However, to me it is just a .223/5.56NATO Klashnikov. No thank you.

8. L85A1. Did not vote for. It is just too heavy. If I had to chose bullpup it would be AUG.

9. FAMAS. Did not vote for. I have limited experience with it. And I compared it to AUG and preferred AUG over it.

10. SIG. I voted for it. It is simply the best .223/5.56 NATO platform rifle made so far. It had darn unquestionable reliability of AK and smoothness of M-16. VERY HARD TO BEAT!


I would appreciate your responses and thoughts on your votes.

Clean97GTI
March 18, 2008, 05:29 AM
Voted for the AK pattern first simply because of its utter simplicity and the option to fire the 7.62x39 round. While the 5.56 makes nasty wounds most of the time, the 7.62 will never get smaller. Obviously, that simplicity is the source of its excellent reliability.

Also voted for the SIG 550 series. AK reliability with AR smoothness and accuracy.

I was surprised to see the Galil but no Vz.58.

U.S.SFC_RET
March 18, 2008, 06:14 AM
Always worked for me in my 20 years. People can say what they want to whenever they want to. The m16 platform never jammed on me that I can remember, believe me I am trying to remember.

Firepower!
March 18, 2008, 08:19 AM
USSFC RET: You must have kept your rifle in good shape. I have jamming issues because most of the folks around here do not understand that M16's notoriously small gas pipe need to be cleaned. I think majority here never clean, and that is contributing to the problem.

Silvanus
March 18, 2008, 09:22 AM
If the Sigs are so great, why are so many people having problems with the 556?

I don't know the 556, but everybody around here seems to love their 550/551/552 models. They are utterly reliable and very accurate.

Cromlech
March 18, 2008, 11:03 AM
Now, I won't be voting for it (accuracy is great though), but you should amend the L85A1 into the L85A2, which is the revised version (more reliable, better cocking/charging handle).

RustyHammer
March 18, 2008, 11:14 AM
M1 Garand

woodybrighton
March 18, 2008, 11:25 AM
the l85a2 actually covers most of the options reliable hard hitting accurate with the upgrades coming along can now be gucci'd up

collateral
March 18, 2008, 11:36 AM
The AKs have a lot going for them, too, but show me one country that can afford M4s and has access to them that still chooses the AKs.

Bulgaria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-M1

Poland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kbs_wz._1996_Beryl

just to name 2 of them.

possum
March 18, 2008, 02:20 PM
of the rifles that you listed, i would go with the m14.

but to keep things light and easier to carry i would say that the piston operated ar's are the way to go. like the 416 ,lwrc's etc.

Firepower!
March 19, 2008, 09:06 AM
M14 and AK47 have about the equal votes.

Hmmmm now I am convinced that these online polls are tainted towards what people have used. I doubt many Americans have used AK47 in combat whereas they have M14, thus yeilding this wierd result so far.

And wondering who is voting for FAL since its not in US army use, and people who may have it in the US probably have the semi model without combat experience!?!?!

High Planes Drifter
March 19, 2008, 09:26 AM
Totally absurd that the M14 would have as many votes as the AK.

Just goes to show that Internet forum polls are totally worthless.

M14 was in service in how many nations? LOL. It was one of the shortest serving service rifle in American history. M14 lovers don't like to hear that. Sure, it's been used since - even today in some roles in Iraq, but it's not the rifle issued to the infantry is it? Nope.

If that is a measure of its greatness, then there are many arms that have been used in special roles that could qualify too.

One could argue that it was basically obsolete the day it was introduced. Compared to what other nations were developing (like the AK).

The M14 represents nothing more than the establishment's inability to accept change. Top brass not liking anything that doesn't look like what they've been used to and what they've used for 50+ years.

They essentially tried to have both an assault rifle and a full fledged "battle rifle" in one package.

Just doesn't work.
__________________


Dont Tread On Me , I agree 100% with you.

I got into a debate here a few weeks ago on the subject of the M14.

The rifle was outdated while still in development. As you said, DTOM, it was a sign of our inability to change, and go forward with our small arms development. IMO, for as wonderfull a weapon as the M1 Garand was, it should have been the last full power caliber, "battle rifle" if you will, that our military fielded.

The Swede
March 19, 2008, 09:13 PM
Far and away, the M16.

Firepower!
March 20, 2008, 04:55 AM
I agree on the M14 issue.

TimboKhan
March 20, 2008, 05:27 AM
I have to disagree to a certain extent on the M16 cleaning issue. While a certain amount of PM is required, for some reason people seem to be unable to move past the first impression of the platform, which was admittedly poor. That, or they assume that inspection ready cleaning is required. Current AR's can be kept in reliable, battle ready form with about 5 minutes of maintenance, if that. Really, a few quick swipes of the chamber, a little bit of lube for the bolt, and a pipe cleaner up the gas tube here and there, and your done, at least in terms of being able to shoot. If your really getting down and dirty, the AR is exactly like any other gun: Kind of a pain to clean perfectly.

Don't Tread On Me
March 20, 2008, 05:52 AM
AR is a filthy gun. That is a love/hate issue with me. I love the platform but hate how filthy it is. On the other hand, I've run mine over 1,000 rounds with dirty Wolf ammo, no cleaning whatsoever, and I believe I only have it one spray of Rem Oil to the bolt/carrier. No malfunctions. That is true of all my AR's. Note: I only buy top quality AR's and parts.

I complain about how dirty it is internally. But how can I complain when that filth doesn't effect the reliability? At least for me it hasn't.

AR is a good rifle for ME because I don't live in a desert, nor am I going to go prone and crawl through mud.

I believe the AK is better in many ways for an army rifle. SIG 550 is even better. Takes a lot from the AK, but is a more refined package. Very much a "best of both worlds" type of rifle.

Silvanus
March 20, 2008, 07:32 AM
And wondering who is voting for FAL since its not in US army use, and people who may have it in the US probably have the semi model without combat experience!?!?!

:confused:


You never specified US army. And almost all the choices in your poll are NOT used by the US army anyway.

Firepower!
March 20, 2008, 11:14 AM
M16/M4/M14 and Sig are used by US government.

30% are, so I dont understand where you get the all most all phrase.

In fact I think AUG is also used by some US forces such as Customs, etc.

stevelyn
March 20, 2008, 11:33 AM
has any nation built its own m16 ,except the US?

Korea was making them under license until it was upstaged by their superior design of the Daewoo K1 and K2.

BTW, I vote for the Daewoo even though it isn't on the list.

Geronimo45
March 20, 2008, 12:52 PM
M16/M4/M14 and Sig are used by US government.
Who's using the Sig?

Eightball
March 20, 2008, 04:29 PM
Don't feed the troll.

Titan6
March 20, 2008, 04:52 PM
I did a little experiment a few years ago. I stopped cleaning my M4. I didn't clean it for more than six months and fired close to 1000 rounds through it at five seperate ranges, spread out over four months. Number of jams 3. They were induced by a sand filled magazine. The only real problem I had was that the rounds did not like to chamber. Had to give it a good whack and throw the forward assist. The thing still went into battery and shot just fine though. Once it warmed up, reloading was not a problem either.

So I don't buy that "it won't work when dirty". I've seen AKs that have seen a lot of rounds run through them and they jam up nice and neat. Especially on full auto, but plenty of times just because that is what semiautomatic weapons do from time to time. Put mud in it if you like there is more to it than that.

For accuracy, energy dump, range, flat shooting, control ability on select fire, number of rounds easily carried, that M4 is really hard to beat.

jeridurine
March 20, 2008, 06:16 PM
SIG series, best of both worlds. The AK and the AR.

Firepower!
March 20, 2008, 10:04 PM
jeridurine: I simply cannot over state this but you are VERY right in you assessment.

The only problem (here in Pakistan is) that they are damn expensive (20000$) and their magazines are hard to find and when you do they are over 1500$ each!!

jeridurine
March 20, 2008, 10:12 PM
Thank you.

I have not looked into the pricing of an US price of a Sig but they probably are pretty pricey. If I lived in Pakistan I would not be a gun collectore that is forsure. The mags are worth a gun themselves.

Evil Monkey
March 20, 2008, 10:15 PM
Some one mentioned the Daewoo.

You know what I found out a while back that was very interesting? While it had the same bolt head an AR15 has, the Daewoos bolt had a slot cut onto the side for a fixed ejector. Why did they do that? I don't know. Considering they already had the blue prints to make m16 bolts, they took the time and money to utilize a fixed ejector instead.

Griff
March 20, 2008, 11:02 PM
For grunt use? I'll take whatever works after its fallen off the tractor and my shepherds are done using it for a chew toy. From what I've seen, that'll 'prolly be an AK.

TimboKhan
March 21, 2008, 04:31 AM
I've seen AKs that have seen a lot of rounds run through them and they jam up nice and neat.

The AK is a stout design, no two ways about it, but for whatever reason it seems like it's reliability has reached near mythical proportions. I wouldn't argue that they are reliable under a wide variety of adverse conditions, and a strong case could be made that they are the most rugged of all the rifles mentioned. That being said, of course they jam. Any gun can jam up. Any gun (or perhaps more likely, any ammo) can fail you at inopportune moments. It's a great design, but it isn't invulnerable to mechanical failure.

I would also add that the average M4 is a match rifle compared to the average AK. Personally, I happen to feel that the average AK is perfectly capable of "minute of man", and some AK's are certainly capable of shooting better than that. Still, on average, the AR platform is simply more accurate.

Vityaz
March 21, 2008, 05:38 AM
I voted M14.
It may be an old design, but it works and it works well.

Firepower!
March 21, 2008, 08:06 AM
oh yeah...M14 is as good as AK!

This is like 1911 problem. Cant let go of past?

gunnie
March 21, 2008, 10:31 AM
as per "hso's" #22 posting....the original question doesn't allow for different uses the military can require. geography and terrain are also considerations too varied to fit under one umbrella. i would also agree with "hso's" observation that no time frame windows are included.

just too all encompassing of a question to allow for anything but a "my favorite" selection.

at best, EVERY firearm is a compromise that best suits the military's current engagement needs.

in way of evidence...."firepower!" prefers the HK 91/G3 over the M14, and FAL. i'd have to say he HAS some combat experience to base his opinions on. due to vague criteria of poll posting of original question, the 7.62 galil and AR10 aren't considered....

so lets narrow the options to the above only. in this SUB-GROUP only, my votes would be...

accuracy as main criteria...AR 10, and variants.
reliability...galil
longevity...HK 91/G3
robust design [handling damage resistance]...M-14
best COMPROMISE of above parameters...FAL

i have no long term experience with how these perform in a fully platform, so i won't go there. i don't see a 9-10 pound full auto 7.62x51 as viable for most military troops, anyway.

as far as the geography/terrain...."my favorite" FAL is NOT the choice for use in the sandbox, even endowed with the brit's sand cuts on the bolt carrier. it is also NOT the choice for sub zero tempratures.

as far as time frame windows being needed for an accurate end product, how about i vote for another military firearm not even considered in this poll, the 44 caliber Model 1866 Winchester lever action rifle!

in way of defending my vote, please see:

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Turkey/Plevna/ThePlevnaDelay.html

gunnie

PS- i didn't include the SIG 7.62 as i haven't even seen one before, more less shot one.

Vityaz
March 21, 2008, 12:07 PM
Firepower, as far as I'm concerned, it's not a matter of holding onto or letting go of the past. It's holding onto what works and the M14 works.
It doesn't matter how old of a design a gun is as long as it does it's job.
The 1911 still works in that regard too.

I really don't understand why people have a problem with an older design that still functions well.

Andrewsky
March 21, 2008, 02:24 PM
Firepower, the M14 and M1911 are not outdated. They're still in use in Iraq and Afghanistan by US forces. The M14 fills the niche for a 7.62x51mm rifle perfectly and the M1911 is used by high-speed low-drag operators in the military and by police in the US.

strangelittleman
March 21, 2008, 07:25 PM
I personally like the M16 series, but I'll say the Galil in either 5.56 or 7.62x51 are the ones I voted for. I have shot both versions and feel they have a great mix of reliability and accuracy....heavy? Perhaps, but that's the price one pays for a quality forged receiver and such durability.
Lastly, the M16 is also made in Iran, based on Chinese blueprints and I believe the M16 is also being made in Turkey for it's military based on Armalite's machinery, which in turn is importing the Turkish made AR24 pistols.

GarandOwner
March 22, 2008, 04:05 AM
Wow too many quotes to respond to here

Who's using the Sig?

I know the secret service uses the Sig 551

oh yeah...M14 is as good as AK!

This is like 1911 problem. Cant let go of past?

The m14 is an extremely reliable platform on par with the reliability of the AK with far better accuracy. M21's are still in use as are some M14's and the special forces use a scout version of the M14

Exactly what problem are you referring to? I cant think of a single problem that the 1911 has.....which explains its long service life (still in use) both by some parts of the military and many police forces.


Too many people let personal preference interfere with supporting evidence when it comes to their arguments. Its easy to be an armchair Rambo and say what they "think" would be a good rifle in combat without having the experience to support what would be good. :rolleyes:

Oh and whoever posted saying that the M14 had the shortest service live than went on to say they are still in use contradicted themselves in the very same sentence :rolleyes:

TimboKhan
March 22, 2008, 06:19 AM
Exactly what problem are you referring to? I cant think of a single problem that the 1911 has.....which explains its long service life (still in use) both by some parts of the military and many police forces.


Too many people let personal preference interfere with supporting evidence when it comes to their arguments. Its easy to be an armchair Rambo and say what they "think" would be a good rifle in combat without having the experience to support what would be good.

I will answer you on this one, and I want to say right up front that I am not trying to be combative or argumentative!

As far as 1911 problems go, we need to make sure that we are making a clear delineation between actual military issue 1911's and the modern 1911's sold in stores. Along those same lines, the Kimber pistols carried by certain Marines and some of the 1911's being carried by other SF groups do not, in my opinion, qualify for consideration in my argument because they are "new" 1911's. Frankly, I view the two as completely different guns, because in many ways, to include the guts in some cases, they really are different guns.

So, with that being said, the first thing that I would point out to you as being "wrong" with the issue 1911 is that it had horrible, horrible combat sights. You can tell me that guys shot expert and slayed many enemies with them until the cows come home, but you show me one person who honestly thinks that those dinky little sights are better than the average Novak or Heinie or whatever sights, and I will show you a crazy person.

Second, the issue 1911 can, for some people, be very uncomfortable to shoot. I have big hands, have always had big hands, and the two little slide grooves that wore into my big hands were most unpleasant. Beavertails aren't a popular accessory because they are cool.

Third, the issue 1911 had small controls. This is a debateable bad point, as some people do like the smaller controls, and I can see both sides of the argument, but the fact remains that in terms of modern handgunnery, the controls, or at least the safety, are among the first things modified. While on the subject of the safety, the issue model gives no options for the left handed shooter. (edit to add: There are a whole lot of commas in this sentence. Sorry, but it is 4:20 in the morning, lol)

Now, I am not saying the 1911 is bad, because it isn't. I own a "modern" 1911, and I enjoy it very much. What I am saying, definitively, is that the 1911 is not without it's flaws. If it was perfect, there would be no Kimber, or Les Baer, or Taurus, or Wilson or whatever making modern 1911's. The 1911 may very well be perfect for you, as the perfect pistol is often in the eyes of the beholder, but it isn't the perfect pistol for me, although I think it is a very good choice.

Armchair Rambo out.

Baba Louie
March 22, 2008, 07:04 AM
Best? What is this "Best" of which you seek?

While I've got no dog in the fight and would love to own one or more of each, I tend to think the rifleman behind the weapon, well trained, will be able to get the most out of whatever platform his gov't decrees he shall utilize. Thus it is that he is better able to judge it's strength and weakness than I. An Uncle of mine used an M14 in '65 in SEA and I heard his judgement of that platform as an 11 year old (unkind words to put it mildly). 3 years later I listened to him tell my father all about the newfangled Mattel toy rifle (talk about harsh words...:eek:) used during his 2nd tour.

It's not just the rifle, cartridge selection must also be considered. In todays world, small, fast and sexy is prevalent, being fired from a modular design, easy to maintain during downtime seems to work well enough... for some.

Alvin York made do with a bolt action in .30-06 and a dinky sighted 1911, but that was then and he was a shooter.
Audie Murphy did all right with both M-1's, big and little and IIRC used a Thompson to good effect, and again, that was then and he too was a shooter.

I think the next evolution will follow SIG's 500 series using the FAL gas system (w/ adjustable regulator) and hopefully in a 6.5-6.8 caliber so I'll throw my vote that direction, FWIW, knowing that every design is some type of evolving trade off. Also knowing that some young man in the future, who is forced to use it on some battlefield, will more than likely have a few unkind words to offer regarding the wisdom of those who chose it.

Some things never change. Like the quest for the "Best" Army rifle, I guess... eh?

Silvanus
March 22, 2008, 07:34 AM
Who's using the Sig?

Units that can afford them and are allowed to buy what THEY want. Some French Army special forces use the 551. As far as I can remember they were combat divers, which says a lot in my opinion. They need something reliable when dirty, wet, muddy, ect.

Also the German GSG9 use the SIG 551.

There are others, but I don't care to search them now.


I think the Swiss army tested the rifle by shooting 15000 rounds without cleaning and the rifle didn't jam once. That sounds a bit much, but if you look at how the rifle works, it's plausible.

Firepower!
March 23, 2008, 02:14 PM
Right...AK and M14 neck to neck!;)

Vityaz
March 23, 2008, 08:09 PM
M14 has near AK reliability with accuracy closer to the M16. ;)

Auburn1992
March 23, 2008, 08:31 PM
AK47 is just utmost in reliability, and higher powered than the M4 at closer urban (iraq) range. That's why I voted for it.

GarandOwner
March 23, 2008, 10:05 PM
Right...AK and M14 neck to neck!

yep in reliability, but not accuracy :D

Andrewsky
March 23, 2008, 11:40 PM
I'm not going to say the M14 is AK reliable since extractor can cause the bolt to fly apart and it's extremely difficult to re-assemble the bolt.

Firepower!
March 24, 2008, 02:46 AM
Well M14 is not all that accurate that you pick it over other platforms since if accuracy is what you want try SIG and G3.

Vityaz
March 24, 2008, 05:05 AM
I'm not picking it simply because of accuracy.
I'm picking it becaue it's reliable, accurate and powerful. ;)

Pa.Bill
March 24, 2008, 06:58 AM
The Military Channel, about a month ago, had a show on the Top 10 Military Rifles. They were ranked by time in service, accuracy, reliability, etc..
I don't remember them all but I do remember some were a real surprise.

M14 was 10 (10 being lowest )
AK-47 was #1
M- 16 #2
Enfield 303 #4
( FAL, Mauser were also listed)

Pa.Bill
March 24, 2008, 07:11 AM
Military Channel List of Top 10 Combat Rifles:

1 AK 47
2 M 16
3 Lee Enfield
4 M1 Garand
5 FN FAL
6 Mausser 98
7 Steyr AUG
8 1903Springfield
9 Sturmgewehr 44
10 M 14

Firepower!
March 31, 2008, 06:13 AM
I dont see how M14 can be up there with AK. Especially when AKSU 74 is there as well...one of the best weapons made.

Not to forget the oawesome reliability of G3 and Sig.

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