Erie County Pistol permit upgrades


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Bstack67
March 17, 2008, 04:31 PM
I live in NYS Erie Counry , I have A CCW with restrictions ( hunting and target ) I want to upgrade to unresticted licence. The pistol permit department on the application is asking for just cause to issue it unresticted. Other than living in erie counry most other countys in the state issue unresticted there are some counties that are just as bad as erie county, But does anyone have any thoughts on what to tell the pistol permit department why they should issue an upgrade to unrestricted ?? other than it is my 2 nd amendment right and that Erie county is ridicious by placing restrictions on law abiding cititzians.

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Superlite27
March 17, 2008, 05:12 PM
Don't have to deal with good reasons here in Missouri, but I'll try to offer some ideas anyway. I'm not sure about requirements so I'll toss up a few even though they might be a stretch.

How far are you from a police department? Could you use a lengthy response time as a reason?

What about carrying large amounts of money? Is there documentation required? I know I have huge sums of cash on my person every so often. Sometimes as much as $20.

Are there any convicted felons who have no idea where you live that might be considered dangerous to you who live far enough away that it would be impractical to come find you? I'm sure some threatening person who lives in California or Utah has verbally threatened your safety at some time in the past. Could you get an order of protection against this person? Would this help provide a good reason?

Who determines this "just cause"? I take it that not wanting to get murdered isn't considered a just cause? I don't advise being dishonest, but I would find out what the exact definition of "just cause" is, then be liberal in the application of truth in order to meet it.

Keegan
March 17, 2008, 05:16 PM
"Personal protection."

romma
March 17, 2008, 05:18 PM
All Lawful purposes.

harbingerm
March 17, 2008, 05:23 PM
In CT, I just put "target/self-defense" on the form when I went to get the permanent state license and I don't even think they looked at my reason as I got it in about 5 minutes.

Shooter57
March 17, 2008, 05:27 PM
We had a couple of counties like that here in Michigan, then we became a shall issue state and that took care of them withholding CCW's.

CNYCacher
March 17, 2008, 06:42 PM
How about for those long hikes you go on in the Adirondacks when you are not target shooting or hunting?

Onondaga county (Syracuse) does this to people as well, but if you are not a cop or connected some other way, there is no "upgrade" possible. However, Camillus Sportsmen's club has a 24/7 indoor range, so at any conceivable time, you 'could' be on your way to the range. :)

harbingerm
March 17, 2008, 06:45 PM
Well, bad guys are "targets", right? Jes sayin'...

denfoote
March 17, 2008, 06:51 PM
This is New York, right??
My advice is to consult an attorney that specializes in navigating the floes and eddies of New York firearms law. Look in the Manhattan phone book, you should be able to find one!!

CNYCacher
March 17, 2008, 07:00 PM
denfoote:

click here please (http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Erie,+New+York&geocode=&dirflg=&daddr=manhattan,+ny&f=d&sll=42.783307,-78.881836&sspn=1.225599,2.570801&ie=UTF8&ll=41.86547,-76.415405&spn=39.61482,82.265625&z=4)

denfoote
March 17, 2008, 07:14 PM
OK.
I live in Arizona.
I thought he wanted to know about NYC.
Even so, don't you think consulting the above mentioned Attorney is a wise move?? I do know that New York firearms laws are a hodge poge of conflicting pitfalls and traps. A mistake on a form can leave you denied with no further recourse!! It may be worth a couple of hundred bucks to find out what he needs to do and get help with the forms!!

Bstack67
March 18, 2008, 12:13 PM
I am sure there a many loop holes to carry with restristions , as the investgative police cheif told me as long as you are going from point A to point B you can carry as long as it is concealed and you are not stopped at 4 am and tell them you where tagert practicing use common sense. I have talked to several several State trooper who tell me as long as you got licence they will never question your restrictions, I own 5 hand guns and it is just frusterating to keep them home , dont make sense to me, Erie county is the worse,,

LAH
March 18, 2008, 12:16 PM
For the protection of myself and my family.

CNYCacher
March 18, 2008, 02:44 PM
Also, it stands mentioning that carrying outside your restrictions is not a crime. The worst that can happen with you getting caught carrying outside restrictions is a LEO decides he is going to rat you out to your issuing judge. Said judge, upon learning of your rampant disregard for his superior judgment, may decide to punish your uppity peasant butt by revoking the anointment he has so generously graced you with.

DragonFire
March 18, 2008, 05:11 PM
Personal Protection is what I was advised to put on my applications. I also had hunting and formal and informal target practice.

If you try to use the line of "carrying large sums of money", or "carrying cash for business" be prepared to back that up with facts.

Most of this is not covered by black letter law. There is alot of descrection left to the judge and county. So ANY lawyer won't be of much good. A lawyer from your county might help.

Also talk to someone at your local gunstore (not Walmart, the smaller ones). They probably have a good feel for what the county is looking for.

MilsurpShooter
March 18, 2008, 05:20 PM
Even so, don't you think consulting the above mentioned Attorney is a wise move

Consulting a Manhattan attorney for an Erie permit wouldn't do much good. NYC laws are sperate of their own, completely different than what is on the books in any other portion of the entire state. County to County the rules are completely different.

As far as your upgrade Bstack... Well only a few possibilities come to mind, hiking/traveling/fishing during a non-hunting season. I'm sure you guys have some large predatory animals or not so friendly snakes that don't just magically stop appearing in the wilderness when it's not hunting season right?

I know here in Westchester the monetary route is a PITA (Bank Statements, banking records, letters of certification and constant checks)

If there's a range near you 24/7 well that would be the best course of action in my mind.

DragonFire
March 18, 2008, 05:20 PM
Saying you're on the way to the range is risky. It's fine until you have to use your firearm to protect your family in McDonalds, or the grocery store or whatever. Yeah maybe they don't hassle you, but maybe they do. And if you really needed to defend yourself, you might not care.

But restricted to target practice and hunting, doesn't mean you get to carry it concealed to/from the range or field. Supposed you get bumped while waiting in line at the bank, or have to go by ambulance and the EMT find it? Individual LEO may not have much say in what happens, or how big a fuss is made over the restrictions.

The judge can revoke your permit altogether, and then you'd have to explain the denial any time you'd try to apply for a new one.

There are recourses you can take if your upgrade is denied. You can ask for the reason it was denied, in writing, and then appeal that decision. Yeah, its a hassle, and a hassle you probably shouldn't have to go through, but a paper-work hassle is alot better than a criminal hassle.

ImARugerFan
March 18, 2008, 05:34 PM
Good luck. I live in Broome County and it's the same BS here. I had high hopes when we recently got a new judge, but word on the street is that it's all the same still. Unless you own a retail business with lots of cash (even then it's not a sure thing) you will get the hunting/target shooting restriction. It is complete BS.

The problem with the 'always on your way target shooting' is that if I'm not mistaken our hunting/target shooting restrictions require us to carry openly also.

The best advice I can offer is to write your state representatives and plead with them to change state policy in order to remove the power to restrict permits on a county by county basis. There was a bill in the assembly a year or so ago, but it didn't go anywhere.

KODB
March 18, 2008, 05:55 PM
Unfortunately, that is the way things are done there and have been for at least 25 years in my personal experience. I used to live in Niagara and then Erie counties; same bs when I was there. Unreasonable restrictions on my personal rights despite honorable military service and gads and gads of training lead me to not come back to NY after my military service and education. I moved to PA and couldn't be happier!


Regards,
Bob

67charger
April 2, 2008, 03:44 PM
hey rugerfan, I also live in Broome County and havent ever heard that you are to carry openly under anny circumstances. it is called a concealed carry permit for a reason.
Carry at your own discretion is what I say. Legally we are not to carry in a school or gov't building or a business where alcohol is sold\served.
If you are stopped it is your obligation to inform the LEO that you have a loaded firearm on you. whether to and from the range is your story or not. when you received your permit labeled "for hunting and target shooting only" you should have also received in the same envelope a letter explaining your obligations and limitations outlined. I shoot competitively locally in IDPA and USPSA and there are several guys from other counties as well as local law enforcement there and can tell you they have mixed thoughts on "us" carrying. I have a friend who is local town police officer and thought he was cooler than he was. I talked about taking him to a small IDPA match with me and come to find out he is gainst ANY civilians carrying. So- All I can say is carry at your own discretion and may the people necessary be on your side if you get caught and people arent happy. I personally believe I will deal with that if and when the time comes, but I believe in carrying for mine and my families protection. I hope it never comes to that but I dont want to be the defenseless one caught in the middle of a shooting spree intended against me. I found that when I carry I am more polite and reserved. That is my opinion and I wont be swayed by someone perspective or statistics. I feel I have to more level headed than ever and take the attitude to walk away or avoid theconflict to begin with. AND YOU HAD BETTER BE DAMNED SURE YOU MADE EVERY ATTEMPT TO AVOID THAT CONFLICT AND HAD ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER WAY OUT BEFORE YOU DRAW IF IT EVER COMES TO IT. That will probably be your best, or better yet- ONLY defense in court that will mean anything today. just my $.02

CNYCacher
April 2, 2008, 05:11 PM
67charger,
I see that this is your first post here, so Welcome to The High Road!

Respectfully, I disagree with your assertion that it is illegal in NYS to possess a firearm in a place that sells alcohol, likewise government buildings (except for courthouses). You would be able to change my mind by citing the section of NYS law that backs up your assertions.

Aside from that, thank you for your insight into the opinions of the various law enforcement officers you have had contact with.

67charger
April 2, 2008, 06:25 PM
Hey, thanks- I DO STAND CORRECTED. I found the paperwork I recieved with both my NY and PA permits and the wording does not mandate the restriction of carrying on premisses where alcohol os served or sold, rather "suggested". Thanks. The wording on the paperwork received from Broome County sheriff's office regarding the NY permit states "Firearms MAY NOT be carried on school property or in schools, on airplanes, or in Federal Government Buildings, unless special permission is obtained, and are illegal in County parks. For your own safety, do not take a pistol(s) into public buildings, taverns, restaurants or to parties. Never leave loaded pistols where others can handle them."
The paperwork I received from the Susquehanna PA Sheriff's dept with my permit states "Avoid carrying in locations where alcoholic beverages are being served"
So- for years as I entered a liquor store or bar and thought about whether or not I am carrying it was only "for my own safety". Thanks, I had always remembered it as a no-no. I can now be more factual regarding carrying do's and dont's. thanks again.:D

jbkf1003
June 11, 2008, 03:18 PM
Bstack67:

How did you make out with this? I also live in EC and have a restricted permit and hoping to remove my restrictions.

Thanks

longfoot
September 29, 2008, 12:51 PM
There is a Handgun Safety course that is now being taught in Broome County. I took mine in August. We had a three hour lecture at Gander Mountain Friday night then an all day class at the sportsmens club in Owego on Saturday. We did quite a bit of shooting there too. You might want to take a look at this website.

http://www.safeinrochester.com/firearms.html

A number of those who have taken the class have had the restrictions removed from their handgun permits. I got a note this past weekend from a friend who was in my class and he just got his unrestricted permit. I'm hoping to hear the same thing this week. They say officially that taking the class is no guarantee but barring any unusual circumstances most people who take the class can have their restrictions removed.

jc650
October 2, 2008, 09:16 PM
I live in Erie Co. and on the application it states that "personal protection is not a valid reason for a concelaed carry permit".

trickyasafox
October 2, 2008, 10:57 PM
stay away from lengthy response times- that would apply to your home. I'm from Onondaga and we have the same hoops.

I hope you have a job that forces you to transport large sums of cash and occasionally hold it over the weekend, cause that's the only way I've seen an unrestricted get issued.

Vaarok
October 2, 2008, 11:18 PM
Taking the big week-long (forget how many hours, but it was at least three a night for a week) NRA personal protection course really helps if you're in Oneida or Herkimer county, if that means anything.

Odd1
October 2, 2008, 11:48 PM
I lived in NY many years ago.

My county did the same thing.

I do not think it is legal.

The pistol carry permit is a state issued document. The county can not modify it. When I was there they just stamped it with a stamp that said "to and from the range only",

I knew some cops who told me if I was cuaght carrying I would most likely be arrested, however, they have never heard of anyone prosecuted, as the county stamp ment nothing.

Good luck, it is a shame really.

trickyasafox
October 3, 2008, 12:03 AM
yea the problem is they can be revoked at any time for any reason- says so right on em. I've heard that too Odd1 with regards to the legality of it- but lets be realistic- there isn't a good check and balance system when a seemingly small % of the population (namely us) makes noise about something the majority doesn't understand and has had demonized by popular media.

longfoot
October 3, 2008, 08:34 AM
You are correct in that there is a patchwork of different regulations between NY counties. When I took my Handgun Self Defense class in August, the instructor who is based in Rochester told the class that some counties make it just about impossible to get a concealed carry permit while others make it very easy. He even said there's one county that sets up a table in malls and at public events and they hand out permit applications and they encourage concealed carry permits. It used to be almost impossible to get one in Broome County until we got a new County Judge who is quite open to them. I know several people who have already gotten them and I hope to receive mine any day now. I know Tioga County also gives them out quite regularly. I have a friend in Tioga County with one and he also wrote to Pennsylvania and got a CCW from there and he said he's now good in close to 20 states because of reciprocal agreements. It doesn't seem right that regardless of state law it's actually up to the personal prejudices of one judge in each county.

yourang?
October 3, 2008, 11:18 AM
check with the clerk in the permits office in your county

that person will know what the process is
they will know if it is even worth the effort to try
(they know who, if any one, has been sucessful...they
know the judges too)

they may even give you some suggestions as to how to word
your request to change your restrictions that will work

they will be very helpful

cant hurt to ask

longfoot
October 9, 2008, 03:28 PM
Today I picked up my Concealed Carry Permit. I seem to be one of many getting these in Broome County, NY after taking the Defensive Firearms Shooting Skills 101 class given by Rochester Personal Defense (http://www.safeinrochester.com/firearms.html). That and a new county judge have made it possible finally. Any New York person who would like to talk to the owner of RPD, David Jenkins, to discuss what to do in other NY counties can email Dave at rochpersdef@rochester.rr.com. He seemed quite knowledgeable about how things go in different counties as far as CCW. Good luck.

Hk91-762mm
October 9, 2008, 08:34 PM
I live in Genesee cty.
Judge noonan is Usurping the law by making us renew our permits and then Arbitrary adding the hunting and sporting purposes clause..
I'm moving to KY when my wife gets out of college --And I cant wait,
My dad passed on last march and I had a biaccahhh Of a time putting his guns on my permit-was on another post!! needless to say I sent his guns to My bro In Alabama --Shortly there after he got a letter from NYgenesee cty sheriffs dept turn in your guns for destruction and your permit is revoked ---[he left the state without turning in his permit-] NY doesn't allow out of starters to have a NY permit--Godddddd i cant wait to leave this place !!!

ihatesnow
October 9, 2008, 09:31 PM
I really wish NYS was a shall issue state. I'm about to apply in Erie also and I expect to get my permit restricted. I'm just going to move when I finish school.

Erie county is terrible.

MotorOilMcCall
November 3, 2008, 05:31 PM
I'm trying to issue in Erie county, I gotta ask you guys, do you have a hunter safety education course? I had mine, lost the card years ago, and don't have any old back tags to get new ones, so I have no proof of a hunter safety course, guess I gotta take it again if I'm gonna hunt next year. I know I'll be restricted for at least a few years, then hopefully I can get it lifted. What did you guys put for your reason to possess on property? I'm guessing personal protection, target shooting, and hunting. Well if I apply before I retake my hunter safety course I probably won't be able to use hunting as a reason.

God I hate Erie county, and pretty much NYS as a whole.

ihatesnow
November 3, 2008, 05:54 PM
You have to have a piece of paper that says you took a pistol safety class. Its $60 at BGC. Put down target and hunting. Unless you have a really good reason to have one. Self defence isn't a good enough reason in their eyes. I have all my paper work filled out, ready to hand in to the pistol permit department. I'm not handing it in because I don't want to support their BS ways of restricting our rights.

I've had enough. You know what I'm doing? Moving. 2 weeks and I will be in Florida.

MotorOilMcCall
November 3, 2008, 05:59 PM
Well being in college full time, and working full time kinda restrict me from moving, otherwise I would in a heartbeat! I'm getting my NYS Pistol Permit, one way or another... After that, I'll get my Florida permit since you can do it through the mail. That way I'll be legal to carry in 30 some odd states, NY permits are damn near worthless anywhere else. Any idea how often BGC has a safety class? And how long does it take?

Thanks a bunch ihatesnow!

ihatesnow
November 3, 2008, 06:01 PM
You could call them.

716.833.2581

Wolffmagik
November 3, 2008, 07:41 PM
If you have not hunted and do not have proof of your hunting safety class all you have to do is call the DEC and tell them that you lost your card and they will send you a copy. I hunted when I was younger and then stopped hunting for about 20 years due to a hunting accident. I desided about 5 years ago that I was ready to start hunting again but had no old back tags or my card for the hunting safety class so I called the DEC and told them my story and they said I was still in the system and sent me a coppy within a week. Hope this helped.

trickyasafox
November 3, 2008, 08:16 PM
where do you go motoroil? I'm at UB now in grad school. If Erie was any better than Onondaga, I'd consider making my permanent residence here- but its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

MotorOilMcCall
November 7, 2008, 01:46 PM
I go to Buff State...

I gotta do some more legwork on this, but as of right now its crooked if you know what I mean. Plus I'm too busy to get through half this crap.

MotorOilMcCall
November 7, 2008, 01:48 PM
Every Monday, Wednesday, and most Saturdays the BGC has pistol permit safety courses... Guy I talked to said they are booked for the next 3 courses, something about a whacko we elected to office? Oh yeah... Him.

So looks like next week I'll be going in for it.

RochPersDef
November 21, 2008, 06:44 PM
Longfoot:

Thanks for the great comments. I am glad you got the permit this fast!

For those of you in the Western NY area, there are a lot of training opportunities coming your way.

Utah Non Resident permit seminars

Defensive Pistol Skills 101 training

Permit upgrade training for Broome County and the surrounding areas.

And more!!

Visit the website at www.safeinrochester.com and you can see everything we do and how we do it.

Email me through the site if you have any questions?

Dave

porcupine73
January 5, 2009, 09:01 PM
Hi I live in Erie County too and am thinking about applying for a pistol permit. From anything I have seen so far, it seems to be completely up to the county judge reviewing your application as to what restrictions if any are applied. I have read that some judges will not issue permits without restrictions; maybe that is what happened?

I am looking at the 'sample' application now from http://www.erie.gov/depts/government/clerk/applications_permits_pistol.phtml and it seems to have questions that would 'imply' certain answers to be beneficial.....such as, are you an active dues paying member of a gun club. Do you have any prior weapons experience (hunting, military, etc). What provisions have you made to keep weapon secreted in your home or place of business. Are there children residding in your home. Explain when and where the weapon will be in your physical possession. Etc.

Under 'request for personal and/or business protection on pistol permit' it just asks 'reason for request in detail' and 'hours when permit will be carried for business or personal protection.

Maybe one or more of your character references didn't come through as expected? I think that's going to be my hardest step, coming up with four references in my area. It says your local pd may allow references outside your town I guess I'd have to check...I live in a small town.

porcupine73
January 5, 2009, 09:15 PM
Wow even the Erie County gun club nearest me wants at least three character references.

FTWNY
December 24, 2010, 07:20 PM
Best advice that we can give:

Wait for one year after you have your permit and then apply to have the retrictions lifted.

All Lawful purposes. We have been told this is the best general reason if you do not have any other reasons.



We have classes for Erie County pistol permit as well as Utah CFP and Florida CCW.

8 guage
November 2, 2011, 08:18 PM
I was given my permit back in May of 2007...hunt/target res.
In May of 2009 I applied for my restrictions to be lifted and was denied...My reasons for carry were that I was an auctioneer and carried alot of money at times, while making deposits and I also collect old cars and carried money for this as well. I was denied. I then found out in Erie County that most people who have applied in last five years have been granted their carry after having their permit for 5 years...So I have been waiting til May of 2012 to apply again! If not I will move out of Erie County to Niagara County!

parsimonious_instead
November 2, 2011, 10:07 PM
I've been hearing for a while that carrying your firearm concealed "off hours" in NYS isn't that big of a deal if you have a "target and hunting" restriction.
Apparently the worst that can happen is, if you're caught, your permit can be revoked, which is actually quite unfortunate, because it's a permit to own the handguns as well, so you can lose the firearms themselves (although your long guns aren't in any peril).
I've been given "advice" from the guys at my shooting club that it's no big deal to carry off hours, that if you conceal skillfully no one will ever know, and if you're discovered, most cops will give you a pass unless their reason for checking you out was related to something blatantly criminal.
However, I'd rather not take that sort of risk. Why subject yourself to an officer's whim? Perhaps the vast majority of police feel that "Hey, this guy with the suspicious bulge in his clothes has a pistol permit, which requires a class and lots and lots of paperwork and background checking, so I'm sure he's a good guy" - but what about the one officer that feels that he has to follow the exact letter of every law, rule and regulation? Or perhaps worse yet, doesn't like the idea of non-LEO carrying, and decides to stick on a BS charge, like "disorderly conduct?"

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