[KevlarTester]

First let me start by stating that I'm new to reloading.
I shoot 44, .357, 10mm, 9mm, .45 and .38sp approximately 600rd per week. With the cost of 10mm, .44 and .357 starting to burn a hole in my pocket, I decided to give reloading a try. I was considering a Lee Pro 1000 for it's low initial investment in the event I don't like rolling my own.
Everyone loves Dillon and with the amount of shooting I'm doing it may be a better choice. What do you guys suggest?
Also, I've read here and elsewhere that the IMR 800x powder is great for 10mm and according to IMRs website, the other calibers as well.
Is this a good all-around powder?
Does it burn clean?
I've seen some nice pics of some of your reloading benches and all the accessories required for reloading. I also noticed that many of you had numerous powders around the bench area.
It may be wishful thinking, but I'm hopeful that I can avoid having too many different powders.

[HSMITH]

Well, think of it this way: If you don't care for reloading and you sell a Dillon it will bring 80-90% of new cost easily. If you sell a Lee it will bring 30-60% of new cost depending on model. There are reasons the Dillon brings more resale money, they work great and the product is backed 110% no matter who has it. With your weekly round count a Dillon 650 is the way to go, a 550 if you reload rifle too. Crank off a thousand rounds of one caliber per week and you should be able to keep reloading time down to 2 hours or less easily and never run out before that caliber comes up in the rotation again.

800X is a decent powder for what you want to do. Power Pistol is another, Universal Clays and Super Field would do as well.

You might as well get 2 or 3 powders, match them to the cartridge. Clays is a great 38 and 45 powder. Low charge weights and super clean. Power Pistol or 800X is great in 10mm and 357.

[E357]

Dillon 650 with 5 caliber changes for a new reloader who is trying to save money - yeah right. Sure invest about $1,200 before you know if you even like reloading.

Spend $130 and get a Lee set up for your most used/expensive caliber and see if you like reloading. FYI: The set up for .357 will also load .38's. I think the Dillon 650 with the case feeder is a great press - just way too pricey for a newbie.

Elliot

[Delmar]

IMO, if you're going to just try it out, I would not start out with a Lee Pro 1000. Yes, they do work, but they are also very ginchy too. Potential for mistakes too great. For less money, you can get Lee's starter package with the single stage press, scale and all the basics for a lot less money, plus you can get the feel for every stage of the reloading process.

[Porter Rockwell]

Unless of course you prefer hand weighing each and every charge.
You'll be up all night attempting to diagnose why your Diilon isn't throwing consistant powder charges.

[John Ross]

600 rounds/week=30,000 rounds/year at an average cost of 20 cents/round = $6000/year or about $500/month. With this kind of volume, the price of the press is not critical, folks.

Do you REALLY want to reload for semis? Picking up brass is one of my least favorite activities, which is why I'm 98% revolvers, or subguns with surplus ammo when I shoot pistol calibers. I guess you could put out a tarp.

I have dedicated progressives set up in 38/357, .44, and soon in .500 S&W. I'd suggest the same plan for you if you're shooting that much.

JR

[HSMITH]

600 rounds/week=30,000 rounds/year at an average cost of 20 cents/round = $6000/year or about $500/month. With this kind of volume, the price of the press is not critical, folks.

That was what I was thinking, but just did not articulate it. Thanks John.

Start reloading on a tempermental POS that requires constant tinkering and adjusting and only the most bullheaded of us would continue or expand the operation. The potential for errors is also quite high. Single stage equipment SUCKS for pistol ammo, it takes too long to load to load a box of anything but specialty type ammo.

If you do it right you only do it once.

[Delmar]

Cost and safety is exactly why I recommend starting with a cheap new/used single stage press. One of my buddies loves to shoot, and I have tried to teach him how to reload, but he does not like to. Some people don't like reloading (I luv it myself) and there are those who do not have the aptitude for it, either. IMO, if you are going to try it, find out if any of your shooting buddies reload and get yourself invited over.

[t driver]

I have two Pro 1000 presses from Lee. I have only been reloading for about two years, but, except for adding a single stage press to hold a Lee Factory Crimp Die when I started loading auto calibers, have been happy with the Lee presses. It is true they are a little quirky, but I have never experienced any problem that wasn't from not paying attention. They might sometimes be a PITA but they are not bad machines.

I started reloading due to the cost of .357 ammo. I found that I enjoyed the process very much. For me, reloading isn't as much about saving money as shooting more and finding combinations that me and my guns agree on.

You might as well accept the idea of multiple powders. I was hoping to get by with just 1 or 2 also. I started with HS-6. A good powder but dirty. I have tried several others and found that each caliber I load for likes one powder better than the others. Not really a suprise, just an observation. You can get by with only a couple, but if you enjoy reloading, you will want to try more.

You can't go wrong by having or starting with a single station press. It is a great place to try a new caliber or load, or use it for another specific purpose like the Lee FCD. If/when you decide you like reloading and know what you want, move up.

Get a good powder scale (I use an RCBS 505) and a couple good load manuals. They will be worth every cent.

Welcome to reloading.

:cool:

[larry408]

I also have 2 Lee Pro 1000 presses. You can get a reconditioned Pro 1000 for $84.00 shipped in the calibur of your choice. go to

http://www.leeprecision.com/catalog/browse.cgi?1057422229.3455=surplus.html

If you can not get the link to load go to http://www.leeprecision.com/ and go to the bottom of the paf=ge and click on surplus.

II was going to change my first Pro 1000 over from 45acp to 9mm, but is was less the $20.00 more for another complete press.

[Smokey Joe]

Delmar said it all. It's refreshing to see another reply than mine who doesn't think that if you ain't progressive, you ain't s**t.

[Porter Rockwell]

Joe, I recall the first time I experienced a bros brand new Dillon 450 and then going home and staring at my many coffee cans of "semi" prepped brass in the various stages of completion.
NEVER again Joe!
Most public ranges are covered with once fired brass, I used to be happy with a 50rd box of reloads. Now a hundred round box is way less than a half hour away.....

[Steve Smith]

600 rounds/week=30,000 rounds/year at an average cost of 20 cents/round = $6000/year or about $500/month. With this kind of volume, the price of the press is not critical, folks.

From HSMITH:
That was what I was thinking, but just did not articulate it. Thanks John.

Start reloading on a tempermental POS that requires constant tinkering and adjusting and only the most bullheaded of us would continue or expand the operation.

I agree 100%. You will save enough that you could justify a Dillon easily.

Everyone knows I don't like Lee presses. Some folks like to tinker and fix things, but if I pay for something, I expect it to work.

[dandean316]

From a newbie: If price is a concern I'd consider the 550. It's a little cheaper than the 650 and for me I can punch out about 4-500 rounds an hour. I have only reloaded .45 so far, so maybe the changeover is a concern, anyone care to comment?

[HSMITH]

Changeover on a 550 without a spare powder measure takes less than 5 minutes if primer sizes are different. If the powder measure was pre-set it would be less than 3 minutes, as it would if primer size was the same. I have set the dies in a new tool holder and been loading a NEW caliber entirely at full speed in less than 15 minutes. I load over 10 calibers on my 550, so I have had a little practice, but it was not much slower if any when I first started.

[Archie]

For the calibers you mention, I'd suggest WW-231. It does real well for all but the highest level .357 and .44 Magnum loads. I don't load 10mm, so the heavy loads may require something else.

I agree about simlification. Could you live with two powders? I'd suggest WW-231 and one of the range of H-110 or 2400. Check your loading manual and see which one fits your ideas of .357 Mag, .44 Mag and 10mm.

Back in the old days, most handgunners had cans of Bullseye, Unique and 2400. If you can't get there with those, you're going to the wrong place.

[Mike Irwin]

"Everyone knows I don't like Lee presses. Some folks like to tinker and fix things, but if I pay for something, I expect it to work."

That's why if you want to find out whether or not you like reloading, you get a Lee 3-hole turret press.

Not a progressive, but not a single stage either.

But it can be used as a single stage.

I've done close to 15,000 or so rounds on a Lee Turret in the past 10 years.

No, it's not a great press. I'd like to get a Dillon one of these days.

But it's one HELL of a lot less frustrating than the Rock Chucker I used to use.

I can do 50 rounds in 15 minutes, starting with pre-sized and pre-primed brass (I usually prep my brass using the Lee as a single stage).

[Smokey Joe]

Out-voted and dissed by the "progressives"...again.

Look, guys, no one is questioning that you can crank out rounds faster. I know that as well as you do.

But none of you "progressives" has addressed my 2 main criticisms of the progressive press, which I repeat:
1. Can you crank out CONSISTENT loads, with which ever powder works the best for the cartridge and the gun? You know you can't weigh every powder charge like I can, and therefore you can't be as consistent. You know you have to use ball powders for the best accuracy in your powder measure, and therefore have to avoid a rod powder, even if that is the best powder for the cartridge. So the answer is, no you can't be as consistent as I can. My powder charges are always less than 0.1 gr. away from each other. (That's 0.05 gr. plus or minus.) I try for half that. Yes I weigh every darn charge. I owe it to myself; I owe it to my guns; I owe it to the game I hunt.
2. A progressive is more complicated to set up than a single-stage; more can go wrong, and this is harder for a newbie to handle. Whenever you change loads or cartridges you have to go through at least some of the set-up hassle again. Are you including your set-up time, including all the error factors, in claiming to be faster?

So what it boils down to, is, does faster always mean better? Sorry but I have yet to see evidence that faster is better, in this issue of what kind of press to get, ESPECIALLY for one who is new to the game.

I'm a scientist. I'm willing to be persuaded of the correctness of your point of view. Convince me.

[243_shooter]

KevlarTester,

I don't know where in NY your located, but if your in the upstate / adirondack region your welcome to stop by and give reloading a try.. I've got a dillon 550 and a rockchucker, might give you a feel for the whole single stage vs. progressives, etc...

Leo

[Steve Smith]

Smokey Joe, I have described the accuracy of my handloads in detail, several times here. Feel free to use the search feature, I really don't feel like typing it again. Suffice it to say that my handloads can consistent easily clean a Highpower 600 yard target with room to spare. I personally hav ehit the spotter disk 6 times in a row at 600 with them, and that is shooting from position, with iron sights. I have done a great deal of testing and some modification to my Dillon and I know that it holds very well. Do I check every load? No, and I don't need to.

I do include my setup time in my rounds per hour measurement. I load my match ammo at a rate of 300 an hour or so, and my handgun ammo at 400 and hour.

[45auto]

The savings you will have reloading 25,000-30,000 rounds a year is substantial. In time, the only question for me, anyway, would be how many presses I would have set up.

I've never reloaded on a single stage metallic loader so I can't comment on the time, accuracy, etc. I'm not a bullseye shooter either. The ones I know are very particular about all aspects of reloading.

I load on a Dillion SDB and can easily load 400 rounds an hour and it does meter very well with ball powder, so no issue there.

I would buy one reloader in one caliber and see how it goes for you. Buy the rest of the calibers(factory ammo) until you decide, then either go forward with multiple machines or conversions, or sell it and go back to factory ammo.

[Hutch]

Leaving the Lee vs. Dillon, Single-stage vs. Progressive, Tastes Great vs. Less Filling arguments aside...

800x looks great in the load manuals until you actually have to try and USE it for something. As someone else pointed out, it doesn't meter worth a damn. It's light and flakey, which is good for biscuits, but sucks for gunpowder.

If K'tester really does burn 30k rounds a year, then he will wear out Lee equipment in fairly short order. As others have pointed out, with as much as he'll save, he can afford the best. Dillon is the best. Further, K ain't loading for the Palma match or to win bench-rest competitions.

Kevlartester, buy a Dillon XL650 w/ auto case feed. Buy some Clays or AA#5 to start with and have a great time. If you can find a guru locally who has the same interests and reloads on Dillon, you're way ahead of the power curve. Be careful, good luck, and check back to let us know how this worked out for you.

[Mike Irwin]

"dissed by the progressives..."

Or is it a case of your being overly sensitive? I'm not seeing any "dissing" of people who reload on single-stage presses, Smokey. I'm seeing complaints about how long it takes to load a box of ammo on a single stage press, but that's quite different. Don't identify so closely with your equipment.

"Can you crank out CONSISTENT loads..."

Quite frankly, yes.

I know more than one SERIOUSLY COMPETITIVE rifle shooters (as in winning lots of matches, or placing very highly) who do all of their match loading on Dillon progressive presses.

I also know a number of nationally ranked handgun shooters in various disciplines who load ALL of the competition ammo on Dillon presses.


"Weighing every charge like I can..."

That may not be as big an advantage as it would seem. A number of tests done over the years, including by Gen. Julian Hatcher at the US Army Ordnance Dept., and by staff at NRA, have shown that there is no appreciable difference in accuracy potential over charges that are weighed individually as opposed to those that are thrown consistently in a good volumetric measure as long as consistent loading practices are exercised in both cases.

Hatcher and others (I believe Ed Harris and Joe Roberts did the testing at NRA) were using primarily IMR powders, as ball powders were not available to Hatcher, and were not yet common when Harris and Roberts were doing their work.

I've routinely turned in sub 1/4" groups with my .243 over the years, using IMR-4064 and charges that are thrown with an RCBS Uniflow measure, but not weighed. I've never used ball powders for rifle reloading. When I was loading rifle heavily, BL-C2 and 748 were the common ball powders, and they didn't offer me the performance levels that I wanted.

Consistency in operation is the key to throwing consistent powder charges whether you're throwing charges of stick powders, flake powders, or ball powders.


Yes, a progressive is a lot more complex to set up. But in my experience, in pulling one out of the box and setting it up from scratch, the first box of ammo takes longer to produce. The second, and subsequent, boxes of ammo take a lot less time.

The complexity of changing calibers depends on the machine.

Changing over a Dillon or a Hornady is a lot faster if you have pre-established tool heads because your dies are already set up. The entire tool head is removed, but there's little risk of the die settings being changed.

Changing the locator buttons in the shell plate isn't much of a hassle, nor is changing the shell plate. Maybe a little longer than changing the shell holder in the ram of a single stage, but still comparable.

Setting up the dies in a single stage takes a little bit of time to ensure that you haven't changed the setting inadvertently. Not a significant amount of time, but certainly it's there. There's also physical swap-out time. Probably the biggest counter to this is Hornady's new sleeve lock dies (I dont' think that's the correct name) but it allows very rapid changing of the dies with extreme repeatability. Nice feature.

Note that the shooter in question is also shooting upwards 600 rounds a week. How many times have you shot 600 rounds in a week consistently? Given that I used to do all of my loading on a Rock Crusher, I'd have to say that those 600 rounds, especially given that it's a mix of calibers, could conceivably take, with change out time included, upwards an hour per 50 rounds if each charge is weighed.


The big question that you need to answer for yourself, Smokey, isn't one of "is faster really better?"

You should be asking yourself "Is slower really necessary?"

In this day and age, with the progressives that we have available, the answer is no.

[Mike Irwin]

Kevlar,

Regarding powders...

Everyone's comments about 800X are spot on. It's a very annoying powder.

The same is true with Unique, and to a lesser extent Red Dot, Green Dot, and Blue Dot.

I've been loading for nearly 25 years now, and my primary pistol powder is, and always has been, Winchester 231. Extremely consistent in metering, gives excellent performance over a wide range of cartridges and bullet weights, and is fairly economical, too.

231 will handle ALL of the cartridges you currently shoot.

For .38 Spl., 9mm, and .45 I firmly believe that it is still the best powder available.

It's also good for use in light to moderate loads for 10mm, .44 Magnum, and .357 Magnum. If you want to boom with those rounds, you need to move up to a powder that's slower burning.

For revolver rounds I prefer Winchester 296. It's a bit finnicky in how it has to be handled (can't drop below certain loading densities, and requires heavy crimp), but it gives exceptional performance.

For the 10mm I decided to get away from Winchester powders and am using AA 7, I believe. The only problem with it is that it is VERY fine, and gives me a problem with my Lee measure. Other than that, it's an extremely good performer.

[Johnny Guest]

KevlarTester, welcome to the wunnerful world of reloading.

Suggest you read the floats about overall loading at the top of this forum - - May answer some of your questions.

In general, it is considered a good thing to start out on a single stage press. Many do not, and get over-involved in the care and tuning of progressives. I wouldn't take for my own progressive (a Dillon 550B) but some like to jump right into the deep water. I believe I learned a lot from all my years with single stage presses, which made it all the easier to get into production with a progressive. Everyone has their own favorite way of doing stuff. If you just want to "try out" reloading, you can do so inexpensively with one of Lee's little single stage types.

You mention six handgun calibers and no rifles. You'd probably profit more from a progressive than, say, one who wanted to produce only a few boxes of rifle loads per year.

Don't get all wrapped around the axle with weighed vs. thrown charges if your main goal is to have 600 rounds a week of pistol ammo. You need a good scale to set your measure, without doubt, and to verify settings regularly. If you fire 600 rounds per week, you cannot wring out every last smidgen of accuracy from uniformly thrown charges.

Good luck to you - - -

EVERYONE ELSE:
Contribute if you wish, by saying what works for you. No sense in getting excited over it if some other seasoned reloader doesn't agree with your observations. Discuss - - Don't get personal. :D

PLEASE SEE my remarks at:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=481145#post481145

Best,
Johnny

[KevlarTester]

Wow, I thought this thread was dead.
30 days before it resurrected.

Thanks to all who've contributed.

Hutch,
Yes, I shoot about ~ 25k per year. I find that .223 & .308 are so plentiful and relatively inexpensive that it's not worth reloading at this time.
I'm not a serious a benchrest/target shooter to warrant it.

243_shooter,
Thanks, I'm a bit south in Westchester County. I've recently found some locals who are into reloading and willing to show me the ropes.


Yes, it's true I'd rather shoot and do other hobbies than reload.
I won't know for sure until I try it.
So producing a large amount of reliable ammo as quickly as possible is what I need.

[Smokey Joe]

OK, Johnny, 10-4 and thanx for the reminder.

[Chuck from arkansaw]

This is the first forum I have seen where the Lee 1000 was not uniformly cursed. I used one for quite a while and loaded about 1000 rounds a week with a caliber change from .357 to .44 mag. The Lee will teach you what it takes to make a progressive loading press work. I would suggest a manual press as a backup when it takes you too long to fugure out what isn't working. It can be made to work well, and it is a great learning experience.

[MrPhil]

Loading with a single stage allows you to "craft" each round. Only one thing happens at a time.
Progressive presses "manufacture" ammunition. To get the greatest consistancy from your press, you need to do your QC checks with the press fully loaded. In other words, all stations occupied. OAL will be different, crimp will be different, sizing will be different. (Powder drop NEVER varies, I've checked.) Go ahead, make rough adjustments with a single cartridge. Then, load up and fine tune your process.
Progressive reloading is like every automated (or semi-automated) manufacturing process. Dial your process while its running.
My profession is as an equipment technician for very complex semi-conductor manufacturing equipment. After every repair and/or adjustment, 100 wafers get cycled through before restarting manufacturing. That ensures proper operation . . . mostly.:rolleyes:
By the way, I reload 9mm, 38/357, 40S&W, 44 Spl/Mag, 45ACP with 2 Dillon SDB's. Approx 500 rounds/week. I'm new to it, less than one year. Bought the presses used. Nice simple mechanisms. No computer/software to fail. Well, the processor between my ears needs the occasional tweak, but thats a "whole 'nother story".:evil:

[Chuck from arkansaw]

First a word to KevlarTester. If you shoot hand guns a lot and start reloading, you need to get a bullet mold and start casting bullets. The Lee aluminum molds are great, and not expensive. I use the 6 cavity tumble lube designs almost exclusively. In my crowd it was not unusual to get together for a Friday night bullet casting party and cast 300 lbs. of ingot. Sized and lubed bullets were stored in metal 1 gallon paint cans, and we went through several cans of bullets in a shooting season. As far as "hand crafting" every round, I defy anyone to compare the accuracy of their ammunition to what I can load on a Lee progressive, or even a Lee hand tool with dippers for charging cases. The group of shooters that I hang with got into a Thursday night .44 Magnum shoot-a-thon and the typical range was 100 yards, shooting clay skeet targets, and punching paper. You do not shoot an inaccurate revolver in those circles, and you don't shoot shoddy ammo. Runs of 4-6 broken clays out of a cylinder were typical (with iron sights). We chrono'ed some loads that had been loaded with a hand loader with powder dippers against Winchester and Remington factory, and found the velocity standard deviation of our hand loads to be about half that of factory. At that time, I shot long range revolvers on Thursday nights and Bullseye on Sunday afternoons. That and a just for fun session now and then kept your eye sharp and your hand steady.

[djl4570]

I know someone who got tired of fiddleing around changing his square deal to load different cartridges so he bought three of them. One for .45ACP, one for 9mm and one for all the rest. The unused presses hang from the rafters in his garage.

Throwing charges of 800X would be like trying to throw charges of oatmeal. Check out Hodgdon HS7, Accurate #7 and Accurate #9.

[Porter Rockwell]

A long lost friend of mine used to have a rds Per Min contest whilst running production ammo in a primitive 550B vs 1050B contest.
Marty on the 550B could consistantly run any straightwalled at 7min per hundred, the 1050B operator hovered around 3.5 minutes per hundred, both press operators exlplained that "Zen" had been achieved!
One at a time simply sucks compared to a real progressive press system!

[Black Snowman]

IMHO even if you have a progressive you need a single stage. Even if just for correcting mistakes or making a few experimental rounds.

My suggestion for any new reloader is to start on a single stage with your more expensive ammo (.44 Mag etc . . . ) to get a feel for the process and understand all of the factors that go into reloading. This makes it much easier to spot when things go wrong on a progressive and makes you MUCH more appreciative of it's speed ;)

Even single stage loading can go quite quicky if you don't weigh every round and throw the powder instead. Still won't compare with a progressvie but typically will more consistant.