[TyRip]

I am currently looking into getting my Ohio concealed carry permit and have been on an internet searching binge, along with heading out to a couple stores to hold a few guns, and am constantly waivering on what I want to carry.

First of all, if I am getting my permit, I want to carry anytime I possibly can. This also is a point of frustration, because I don't think I will carry all the time unless it can be front pocket carry. Even then, I am constantly worrying about the gun's thickness and how it prints.

I wear 31x32 boot cut jeans typically, and these are low rise, fairly snug fitting, and have small back pockets. I don't see IWB or OWB holsters working for me, and my jeans back pockets are so small that a Ruger LCP sticks out the top with no holster.

The gun I would like to have would be a Kahr MK or PM, 9mm or .40 S&W, however, they seem too heavy and large for front pocket carry for someone as small and thin as I am, especially considering the clothes I typically wear. So I decided that I probably will end up with an LCP, but its plastic trigger and unknown reliability have me uneasy. I then am very close to buying a S&W 642 for its reliability, but I just know that cylinder will be too fat when in a holster, especially in dress pants.

Anyone have any suggestions? I want to carry front pocket, all the time, am thin and wear relatively snug fitting clothes, and reliability as well as concealability are extremely important to me.

Am I just asking way too much out of a firearm?

[Glockman17366]

You may have to change your mode of dress somewhat. Snug pants don't work well with pocket carry. It's also tougher to draw from a snug pocket.
As far as a weapon, I'd look at the light weight snubbies from Taurus and S&W.I carry a Taurus 85 Ultra-Lite .38 most the time...with a Mikas holster.

You might also look into carrying inside the waistband.Those little Kahr MK9's work well with IWB, but are way too heavy for pocket carry (I've had an MK9 for 8 or 9 years now). I carry my MK9 on a OWB belt slide holster.
I was carrying a Ruger SP101 (3.06" barrel) IWB while wearing low slung jeans over the weekend. It works, but setting down was a bit of a hassle.

[The Lone Haranguer]

Really, are you going to let your clothes hamper you from carrying a concealed handgun for protection? If you need to make changes in your wardrobe to better carry, IMO you should do it. "Relaxed-fit" jeans, cargo pants and some casual slacks work much better for pocket carry than tight-fitting jeans with their small pockets. Besides better concealment, looser pockets leave more room to bunch your fist around the grip so you can get the handgun out, something that is often overlooked.

My own pocket carry gun is a Kahr PM9, in a Mika pocket holster. You will want a pocket holster of some kind. Also, FWIW, I am 5'9" and 148 lbs.

[zulu6]

Glockman is right here. Carrying a concealed firearm is a big change from not carrying one. Your mode of dress might have to adapt to that change. Its kinda like saying “I want to keep driving a Miata but I want be able to haul plywood around too.” Some changes might have to be made.

All that said; take a look at the 642 outfitted with Barami Hip Grips. This is my daily carry and I have found no better configuration. The gun fits very nicely inside the waistband and no additional holster is required so the bulk is minimal. I carry it just forward of my right hip and it just disappears in jeans, shorts, and dress pants.

Sure there are bigger and higher capacity blasters out there but with the 642 you get 5 virtually guaranteed shots of .38 +P and because of its light weight and concealability, its likely to be with you, not back in the car or at home.

Website:
http://www.baramihipgrip.com/

[TyRip]

I know, I know... change my pants.

I probably will, but the wife will not be too happy, she finally got me wearing the kind of clothes she thought looked better on me (and she was right, of course) and then I am going to scrap it again.

I will definitely have no problem in the summer, as I am usually wearing relatively loose fitting shorts, but jeans seem to be the main hangup. Also, I have already thought and worried about being able to draw from front pockets that don't always make it easy to get my slim cell phone out of. I just really don't know if I can find pants that I like and have big enough pockets. I will give IWB carrying a shot, but I highly doubt I will be able to stand it.

I wish the Kahr MK9 weighed 15 ounces. That would be amazing... Anyway, I still have some definite adjustments to make in my wardrobe or comfort tolerance or something. I doubt I would have an issue with an LCP, but would really feel better if I was carrying a Kahr 9mm or even a S&W 642.

Anyways, thank you for the help and keep it coming.

[TyRip]

Actually that hipgrip looks like a great solution.

Too bad I can't legally use it :mad:

In Ohio you have to be carrying in a holster.

Should we all concede that I am a little wimp and need the LCP or do I need to man up and IWB carry a sub compact 9mm or 40 S&W?

[gbran]

You might consider Tactical 511 shirts. They have two front pockets with a hidden compartment behind both pockets. I have a velcro'd holster of sorts inside. I can actually comfortably carry my G26 and have carried larger guns. The shirts are really durable, good looking and come in long or short sleeves.

[FranklyTodd]

Well, I'm from the - I'm not changing my wardrobe unless I have to camp. Doesn't mean I wouldn't change if I did have to, but tried to make CCW work with my existing clothes first.

I carry a S&W M&P340 with CT laser grips in the front pocket of every pair of pants I have - jeans (Levi - "loose" fit), shorts, cargos, khakis, and even suit pants. I find a revolver print much less gun-like when compared to a similarly-sized square auto. It's 13oz of joy to carry in a Nemesis (Mika to be ordered soon).

When I absolutely cannot be made, I use a SmartCarry (www.smartcarry.com - search YouTube for great demo videos!). In the SmartCarry I can carry the j-frame effortlessly, or my Glock 26 with only slightly more effort (I have 3 other holsters for the 26 that rarely get any use at all).

I do have a Ruger LCP on order - when it gets here, and if it proves itself reliable, then I might sometimes pick it over the 340 in some clothes (still front pocket), but I expect the 340 to stay number one!

I'm in Ohio, too. PM me if you want to chat more about it - I went through quite a process figuring out what worked best for me... If we're near each other we can even go shoot, and I'll show you my rigs...

Good luck!

FT

[Owen Meany]

I want to carry front pocket, all the time, am thin and wear relatively snug fitting clothes, and reliability as well as concealability are extremely important to me.

TyRip,

A solution awaits you. The only compromise you are going to have to make is that you'll be trading pocket carry for carry in another location that is, with practice, just as quick to access and only slightly - and I really mean slightly - inconvenient (and that only when you have to take a whiz).

Click the link below to view what I consider to be the alpha and omega of concealed carry holsters:

http://www.smartcarry.com/

Now, you're going to get a lot of flak from the SmartCarry enemies, many of whom have never worn one and carry large guns daily in belt holsters. These people warn about the long access times of crotch holsters and argue that you only have to "dress around the gun" to carry a larger firearm in a more accessible position.

Please note that I'm not singling out any of the above posters, so no offense to anyone - I respect all of your opinions. But I must vehemently disagree with the admonition to change one's wardrobe in order to carry daily. Many of us must spend large amounts of time in environments where it's just not possible to wear loose-fitting, "cargo-style" clothes and untucked shirts. Doing so would draw lots of unwanted attention, actually, probably far more than the "printing" or other visual cues that the loose clothing is chosen to hide.

Then there's another camp that subscribes to the inane argument that crotch holsters are "dangerous" and that you are going to "shoot yourself down there" if you carry this way. This claim is so preposterous that I won't insult your intelligence refuting it; indeed, there's no refutation to be given, because you can't rationalize with irrationality. Keep your finger off the trigger, don't cover yourself with the muzzle, and everything's fine. Same as any other holster.

TyRip, unless you wear pants that are practically skin-tight, the SmartCarry holster will enable you to carry an adequately powerful firearm in near invisibility. I guarantee you this. Do not just go to the website, look at the pictures and try to imagine what it would be like to wear it and then decide against it after a couple minutes. If you possibly can spare the $50.00, buy it, and actually wear it for a couple days with your carry gun. You will be amazed, with one proviso:

Do not push the limits of this mode of carry! To wit, being your size, don't try to stuff a Sig P220 down there and then give up in disgust (I know that Charlie, the owner of SmartCarry, supposedly carries a 5" 1911 daily. Good for him, I don't know how he manages it.).

I'm encouraged that you mentioned the Kahr MK or PM series. These small, thin, guns are among your very best bets. Another excellent choice is the S&W J-frame, which you also mentioned. Keep in mind that the J-frame's cylinder is only at its thickest (1 5/16") for a very small area, after which the rest of the gun is way thinner than the thinnest semi-auto of comparable power.

Also, with the proper boot grips on the J-frame (Craig Spegel, Eagle, Ahrends, not wood Hogue Bantams, they are too thick), the grips taper towards the bottom of the gun's frame far more than any semi-auto can, because there's no magazine to accomodate. (If you want rubber grips, Uncle Mike's boot grips - standard equipment on the 642 - are a copy of Spegels.)

When wearing the SmartCarry with the above guns, there is a tiny bit of printing, almost all of it from the bottom of the gun's grip. When I say a little, I really mean a little - that is, a barely detectable bump in your pants' front below and to the right (your view) of center. I assure you that my standards for concealment are exacting, to say the least; for example, even as a fairly medium-sized person, I consider the Glock 26/27 to be unacceptable for SmartCarry use, thought many others would say these guns "disappear" this way.

The bump you'll see from wearing a J-frame in a SC is something that I would challenge anybody to pick up on if they didn't know to look for it beforehand. A bonus (not that it's needed) is that your groin is not something that most people want to be caught staring at. Once again, with the right gun, SmartCarry conceals well enough that someone could look all day and not find it, but it's nice to have this "taboo" on your side as a little extra measure of security.

Ok, I'm done :uhoh:. Hope I didn't get too enthusiastic, I just want to let you know that there is what I think is a perfect solution to your problem waiting for you to avail yourself of it.

A Kahr MK40 or S&W 642 in a SmartCarry is a damn site more comforting than a Seecamp .32 in a pocket holster. There are some fine mouse guns out there, and the Seecamp is at the top of the list, but I would not shortchange yourself if I could possibly help it.

And lastly, no - I am NOT Charlie from SmartCarry. Just a helpful bloke who sometimes gets a little carried away. :D

[Owen Meany]

Oh, NOOOOOO. FranklyTodd stole my thunder while I was typing away!!! :what:

[FranklyTodd]

Ok, one more SmartCarry story. I'm cheap - $50 is a bargain if you use it, but REALLY expensive if you won't. So, I unload my Glock 26, stuff it down a tube sock, tie a knot just above the gun, and stuff it down my pants so the gun rests where a SmartCarry would put it, and the knot above my belt keeps it from falling down my leg. Wore it around the house for a couple hours, even went to BlockBuster (j-frame in my pocket ;)).

I almost forgot it was there - that was what convinced me. Draw is not lightning fast, but more than adequate with practice.

I would suggest a j-frame with a pocket holster and SmartCarry. Use the pocket holster with clothes where it will work, SC for other times...

Good luck!

FT

[markmc753]

I agree with what Frankly said regarding J frames (not) printing.. I have a 360pd in the front pocket most all the time and never worry about it

[Geronimo45]

Pocket carry's the easiest option for most folks. Just involves you not using that pocket for anything else.
If you want to carry a full-sized auto/revolver, you'll need monster-sized pockets (even Dockers are a tad too small for my K-frame) or shoulder/belt carry. Maybe smartcarry. Keep in mind that most people seem to find shoulder carry more painful than belt carry. A few people find shoulder carry more comfortable.
Oh... almost forgot the holster-shirts, like the 5.11 model. They seem to have a following, and would probably work well for carrying a j-frame. But j-frames can (and do) go everywhere... from ankle to shoulder and everywhere inbetween.

[Kind of Blued]

So, I unload my Glock 26, stuff it down a tube sock, tie a knot just above the gun, and stuff it down my pants

WOW! That was good... :D

[quiettype]

I'm 5'9",30" waist and maybe 125lbs and I carry 24/7. I've had to figure out what works for me.A slim gun is more important for us than for larger folks. More important than caliber, weight or barrel length. Check out an old Colt 03 pocket pistol and you'll see it's so concealable because it's so slim.I found a pocket9,tossed the factory grips and had a very thin custom set made.Just changing grips made a huge difference.
Regarding pants for front pocket carry: Insert your hand into pocket,make a fist,then pull it out.Keep looking for pants that will allow you to do that. Good luck!

[mjrodney]

I'm a bit curious as to what the OP considers "printing".

Does the OP wish for a solution that shows absolutely nothing in the front pocket? If that is the case, a Smartcarry or Thunderwear is the best solution.

Or is having an unrecognizable "bump" in the front pocket, one that doesn't scream "gun", an acceptable solution?

I know my P3AT, in a Nemesis pocket holster, will show as an unrecognizable bump in some of my slacks/pants.

No one has caught on to what it really is, to date.

[FranklyTodd]

I'm a bit curious as to what the OP considers "printing".

An excellent point, mjrodney. He's just getting his permit. When I first got mine a year ago or so, I thought anything that wasn't under a giant coat printed like a neon sign. :what: Can't fix that with anything but a bunch of Wal-Mart walks. ;)

Nobody's made me with a j-frame in the front pocket. And that's with three curious kids, sometimes on my lap. Not only that, my wife didn't know I was carrying for a few months...:evil: She never caught on - but I eventually told her. That's a whole other story... :neener:

To me there are times I don't care if a really nosy person figures it out - out shopping, etc. Then there are times that I really, really don't want to be made. Around clients, things like that. The word "concealed" in CCW is a sliding scale. I've seen people on boards like this that claim to carry a G26 in the front pocket of their jeans (which I have done on occasion - it's like having a paperback book in your pocket). That's concealed from a legal standpoint, but in no way concealed based on a dictionary and common sense.

A j-frame is doable, in almost any kind of clothing.

[Zach S]

I'm 6ft tall, and weigh about 155. I have a 29" waist and a 32" inseam.

Pocket carry simply does not work for me, own a Taurus Model 85, have owned a PM9. Even in the baggy carpenters pants I wear to work, I cant pull it off. The only pocket carry I've been able to do is with a coat.

Since 29x32 jeans are impossable to find, I buy 30x32s, and carry a 5" 1911 IWB.

[MacEntyre]

How about a Kangaroo holster (http://www.deepconceal.com/)?

[TimboKhan]

Well, I think the thing here is that the OP wants one of a couple of different guns that aren't really made for pocket carry (Kahr) and is comparing it to a gun that sort of is (Ruger LCP). Lets address some basic truths:

1. If you want a Kahr, your likely going to have to carry IWB. Don't like that idea? Then don't buy a Kahr, because I don't care what kind of pants you wear, your never going to be able to conceal it in your pocket with anything approaching comfort.

2. If you really want to pocket carry, forget the Kahr entirely. It's not a big gun, but it is probably too big for effective pocket carry, at least in my opinion.

3. You need to understand that you simply might have to trade off some comfort if you want to carry. Sorry man, but the world isn't perfect. I carried IWB, and it wasn't always the most comfortable, but I did it because having the gun was worth the discomfort. As Clint Smith says, "A gun should be comforting, not comfortable".

4. I don't think you have to change your wardrobe drastically, because you do have one other option, especially since your jeans are boot cut: ankle carry. If your as skinny as you say, you should have plenty of room in a boot cut jean to hide a LCP or a Kahr.

[dairycreek]

[QUOTE]Am I just asking way too much out of a firearm?/QUOTE]

Yes! A gun, is a gun, is a gun:what: If you want to carry a particular gun as a choice for concealed carry it is up to you to make the kinds of clothing concessions in order to safely, securely, and covertly carry that particular weapon. If you aren't willing to do that then move on until you find the right carry combo that works for you.

[dairycreek]

[QUOTE]Am I just asking way too much out of a firearm?/QUOTE]

Yes! A gun, is a gun, is a gun:what: If you want to carry a particular gun as a choice for concealed carry it is up to you to make the kinds of clothing concessions in order to safely, securely, and covertly carry that particular weapon. If you aren't willing to do that then move on until you find the right carry combo that works for you.

[TyRip]

I am starting to really like the idea of the smart carry, thanks a lot for sharing that product. For some reason I really think I could get along with one of those and be pretty content, and it brings me closer to the possibility of getting a metal gun that I actually want (Kahr MK9 or similar, or maybe still a 642 with Crimson Trace).

I know I will make some minor adjustments, and am prepared to do that, with the pants or shorts I wear, but the smart carry gives me hope that it won't have to be anything too drastic to be close in the wardrobe and let me carry a real gun.

Any other suggestions other than deal with it? Thanks

[biggiesmalls]

i'm a kahr man myself these days, but for pocket carry why hasn't anyone mentioned kel-tec or naa?

[Phil DeGraves]

I'm the same size as you and I carry a Smith J-frame (m36 but any of them will work) in my front pocket in a Mitch Rosen Pocket Softy. Done that for years. Works fine.

[ashtxsniper]

I can carry my Kahr P40 in the front pocket of wrangler boot cut jeans. Sometimes its a tad bit uncomfortable but not to bad.

[jackstinson]

I'm in Ohio. I normally wear Levi's regular cut jeans everywhere and carry a Kel-Tec P3AT in the front right pocket using a DeSantis Nemesis holster. It shows a "bump" in the pocket, but doesn't have a neon sign saying "GUN!". Funny thing is, when I was in the CCW class, 3 of the 4 instructors carried a P3AT in the Nemesis holster also, the fourth liked snub revolvers.
When I first began carrying, I thought everyone saw the gun. They don't. Most people do not pay that close of attention to things. Concealed is normally interpreted to mean reasonably concealed, not totally hidden from all scrutiny. A "pocket bump" is concealed, the gun is not in plain sight. In summer, I sometimes carry a little .32acp derringer or one of my various .22, .25, or .32 pocket guns. But the P3AT is as small as most of these and more potent (no it's not a 1911). In Winter, I do at times carry a 9mm S&W 6946 in my coat pocket in a modified nylon holster.
Someone mentioned that you will want a holster. Actually, you will NEED a holster, Ohio law requires it for concealed carry.
Jack

[BamaHoosier]

Okay,here come the guffaws and snickers,but my pocket gun is a Beretta Bobcat(model 21) with a simple fabric holster with no clip.It prints somewhat in my jeans pocket(yes,they're relaxed-fit for my circulation:D),but not at all in my Duckhead khakis.A 22LR hollowpoint is just as deadly upclose! Many a deer have fallen with this round and look how big some of them are!

Anymore,I CC a .357/.38 wheelie on the hip at 3 o'clock position,with a pair of speedloaders at 10 o'clock.Doesn't print under most of my coats and vests,but the bottom fourth of the holster sometimes pokes out to breathe:).I try to get those garments a tad long when I can to avoid that.Now that I've made some of you laugh,time to go get the wife for lunch.Back later:).
~Dave

[doc2rn]

If you are not going to change your dressing habbits you need to look at ankle carry or OWB.

[jt1]

TyRip - As has been said here already, What you see as a huge and obvious gun printing in your pocket will, in almost every case not even be noticed by the average person. As you can see I like the j-frame, 442/642 airweights, but any gun of similar size can be concealed, the more important issue is weight. Decide on auto or revolver and then caliber ( .38 special/9mm is the minimum IMO) then take a hard look at weight, for me anything over 20 oz. or so is too heavy for pocket carry, but ok for smartcarry. Don't forget to add ammo weight.

Nemesis/Mika. The Mika is the best available IMO.
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/jt1jt1/P1180001.jpg


The smartcarry really does work, while it is a bit slower than the Mika, this setup just disappears...
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/jt1jt1/PC150003.jpg

[searcher451]

+1 on Mika pocket holsters. He's a great guy to deal with, is wonderfully accommodating, and a real gentleman to boot. And his holsters offer top-notch quality. I use one with a Walther PPK/S from time to time in pocket carry mode with Dockers, and it's quite functional.

[DawgFvr]

+2 on both the Mika pocket holster and the S&W 642.

[Mainsail]

Man, what a PITA. Ohio? Carry OWB on your belt with a loose shirt to cover. If it gets too hot take the shirt off and carry openly.

Problem solved.

[harbingerm]

Another vote for the PM9. I'm 5'7" and 150 lbs, give or take, so I'm not that big. I pocket carry it on the right with two spare mags in my left pocket. It does and WILL print, but anything will print in a front pocket, especially sitting down. However, due to the holster, it does NOT look like a gun. More like a large cell phone or PDA. I know it's against the "no other stuff in the pocket rules", but if I'm wearing thin dress slacks, I'll either throw my keys or a small wadded up piece of cloth in the lower right corner (looking down) of the pocket to break up the outline further. There's no way for anything to get in the completely covered trigger guard.

[camsdaddy]

I am about the same size and I have to where dress pants and tucked shirts daily. I have found that the best all around all the pistol for me is a p32. I have found it doesnt just dissapear but no one really notices. I carry in my weakside pocket so that it is always in the same spot if it is being used primary or bug. I also feel that I will probaly be using my strong hand to push away or grab while I try to get away and then my left will be used to add a little suprise punch. I may carry a larger gun in my pocket one day but for know my P32 works great

[Ala Dan]

'proly something like a 1-1/8" barrel North American Arms .22 magnum
would work best, if you are not willing too change your dress criteria~! :scrutiny:

[The Lone Haranguer]

As has been said here already, What you see as a huge and obvious gun printing in your pocket will, in almost every case not even be noticed by the average person.

A good point. Instead of having no hint of any kind of object in your pocket, think instead in terms of being unobtrusive. The times I went to busy shopping malls, etc. with a Glock 27 in my pocket, no one noticed, although even in an Uncle Mike's pocket holster it resembled a thick paperback book. ;)

[TyRip]

jt1,

I am thinking your smart carry setup is where it's at for me.

I am concerned about concealability and reliability, and having a backup/New York reload of S&W revolvers carried in a smartcarry or thunderwear seems like it would be just about impossible to beat.

Thanks for the inspiration, I think that is what I will be carrying, except maybe the main weapon will be the 642 with the factory CT grips.

[AndrewGWU]

I am a small framed thin guy as well, I wear the same sized jeans, 31x32. The only wardobe change I have had to make to carry a Taurus Mil Pro IWB is to by 32x32 pants. I have found that I can still carry with some of my 31x32s as well. The trick for me was figuring out where to put the holster (wound up at 4 oclock) and having a good holster and belt.

[tegemu]

When you decide to carry concealed, you should make up your mind to make your wardrobe fit your gun, not the gun fit your wardrobe.

[FranklyTodd]

When you decide to carry concealed, you should make up your mind to make your wardrobe fit your gun, not the gun fit your wardrobe.

Yeah, I understand this point, but it's not always that easy. People have jobs where they have to wear certain clothes, etc., or certain environments where being made has bigger consequences than others.

If your "jeans are too tight" and that's it, then I agree: suck it up and buy different jeans, but to say that you pick your gun first, then make it work, is easier said than done.

I often see new CCW guys over-arming themselves without sufficient consideration of the carry issues they will face. I started my CCW with a Glock 27, and soon found that I only carried it 50% of the time because of its size and weight. I switched to a 5-shot j-frame .357 and pocket carry. Obviously one is better armed with 10 shots of .40cal. However, a j-frame 99% of the time beats the stars out of a Glock 27 (or ANY other handgun) 50% of the time. There are situations/weather/clothes that cause/allow me to opt for more firepower on a given day, but the j-frame is my EDC.

So, it's all compromise. Some guys choose a Kel-Tec P32 for it's power vs. carryability, and some choose a full size 10mm after working through the same considerations. Obviously there's 1000s of other choices out there that are somewhere in-between. Nobody is wrong because they reach a different conclusion than I would reach.

Everyone needs to decide for themselves what they are willing to put up with as a carry burden, versus the inevitable downside of an easy-to-carry gun. If you are not carrying at all today, then tomorrow you are carrying a .32 or .380, you've improved your capacity for self-defense...

[brentfoto]

I apologize but I've not had the time to read this thread. When I carry, I only carry one gun.

But I exclusively pocket carry using a Mika Pocket Holster for the J-frame, or a DeSantis Nemesis or SuperFly. I carry the J-frame the most.

For my Bersa Thunder 380, I can also accomplish it with a DeSantis Nemesis, though it's slightly large with certain jeans but you can still do it.

I rate the Bianchi Pocket Change very highly, too. Just got my first one yesterday for a Kahr, but I was able to slip my BT380 into it. It's a surprisingly nice pocket holster, and more sturdy than depicted on website manufacturer photographs. I'd rate it equal to the Nemesis or may even prefer it.

I haven't had to alter or change any of my clothing thus far. I really don't think that it's necessary-YMMV. I'm a believer that the gun should suit the clothing and not the other way around...

IMHO, nothing tops pocket carry. Without taking into consideration other factors, the J-frame Smiths are best for pocket carry out of the three guns that I've mentioned.

I'd try pocket holster first before considering SmartCarry or similar, like ThunderWear, whatever. You may find it cumbersome and not worth it to have gun pointing at your privates, etc. I don't find it necessary. JMHO.

[TyRip]

It's a done deal for now...

Well, I have had it for a little while, but I just got my concealed handgun license a couple weeks ago, and here is my pocket carry (some of it, at least. I cram a lot of stuff into my pockets). Thanks for the help. I love the 638 and how convenient it is, how little it prints in the Nemesis, it is great.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3167/2426068691_4f7d563492_o.jpg

[PMK]

check out the bersa thunder in 380. It is hard to beat the vertues.