Bill Jordan?


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St. Gunner
August 9, 2003, 01:34 AM
At another board I was at, a fellow is saying Bill Jordan had an AD at his desk one day and killed a fellow Border Patrol agent. I had never heard such a thing, is it true?

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444
August 9, 2003, 01:37 AM
Yes

4v50 Gary
August 9, 2003, 01:49 AM
Go to http://www.thefiringline.com and do a search in the General Discussion Forum. I believe the info you seek is there.

jsalcedo
August 9, 2003, 02:06 AM
After reading the entire TFL thread there is no definitive cite that the Jordan incident occured.

After an extensive web search I could not find anything there either.

This is all I could find a good story nonetheless:

Okay, The Story Of Ed:

Ed Cantrell, like I said, was a sheriff, and Mike Rosa was one of his officers, who apparently had been paying off informants with drugs from the evidence room, and been playing on the wrong side of the line. Cantrell went to have a talk with Rosa, and took along a pair of cops with him. During the talk, Rosa became more and more belligerent, and had his drink in his lap - leaving his hands free. During the talk, Rosa becomes silent, stares hard at Cantrell, and whispers the word "motherf*cker", and arches his back forward. Rosa's gun is carried in a hip holster, by arching back he has now cleared the weapon in preparation to draw. Rosa does not count on one thing - Cantrell has practiced his draws for decades, and has a lightning fast reaction time. Cantrell, in the time he sees Rosa move for his gun, draws, aims, and shoots, because he IS that fast. However, the two officers who were with Cantrell were not keeping an eye on things in the car, and missed it - Cantrell goes up on trial for murder of a cop, and in the newspapers gets painted as a villain who gunned down a saint cop.

During the trial the police who were with him even gave testimony that he told them to plant a gun on the dead man. Not to mention, Rosa never even had the chance to touch his gun. Cantrell's lawyer, a fellow shooter and a genius, picked apart carefully and thoroughly the entire court case against him, even the testimony from the officers - "Did he REALLY order you to plant your gun? Or did he tell you to throw the gun over here?" "Yeah, I think he said that." "Well...isn't it standard policy at an officer-involved shooting to give all firearms to the supervising officer?" "Uh, yeah..." "SO isn't it possible he was following procedure rather than trying to plant evidence?" "Come to think of it...yeah." At that point, the jury was convinced...except for one thing. How could they believe that Cantrell saw Rosa move for his gun, recognize the threat, draw the gun, aim it, and put a round between his eyes?

Enter Bill Jordan, one of the GODS of shooting. Cantrell's lawyer (whose name escapes me, I can't find the story) arranged a demonstration in the court to prove it. Using a pair of revolvers inspected by the judge and jury, and then loaded with blank rounds, Jordan holsters his gun and hands the other to a deputy. He tells the deputy to point the 2nd gun at him and shoot the instant he sees Jordan move. The deputy nods, and Jordan goes on talking for a moment, and then suddenly rips his gun free and pulls the trigger literally before the stunned (and quite possibly needing a change of underwear) deputy gets a chance to react. Jordan goes back on the stand, and admits that he's timed at being able to decide, draw, acquire, and shoot in a mere 0.27 seconds, compared with the normal human 1/2 second to merely recognize - let alone any other reaction. "And what about Sheriff Cantrell?" "Ed? Well, I reckon he's a mite bit faster'n me." The jury took just one hour to acquit on all charges.

You CAN get that good - it's just a result of a LOT of practice. Cantrell spent time every day, just practicing his draws. Just practice

Mark Tyson
August 9, 2003, 08:14 AM
There's an interesting A&E documentary about the Cantrell-Rosa episode, if you're interested. I think the show is called City Confidential.

ACP230
August 9, 2003, 11:01 AM
Combat Handguns November 2003 issue has an article by Bob Arganbright on the gun Jordan used to give people to use when he did this demo. It is a single action Colt that Jordan called, "the Loser's gun."

Also a bit of info about the case cited above.

capnrik
August 9, 2003, 12:26 PM
For the puposes of this story, I will also define a miss as hitting something you were aiming at, but didn't know the gun would go off.
One of our better-known patrol officers found himself similarly alone one sunny day in a Border Patrol office in Texas. An excellent pistol shot, he whiled away an hour dryfiring at a little, numbered plate attached to the front of a steel locker.
Somewhere along the line, a cartridge found its way into the cylinder of his issue, four inch Colt New Service .38 Special. The gun went boom, and the slug went zip, right through the Chief Patrol Inspector's personal locker.
There was no concealing the damage. An investigation was inevitable, if for no other reason than that the chief's unused, but expensive, tailored uniform was in the metal closet.
The young officer displayed the coolness, ingenuity, and initiative that later led him to high government posts and an extremely respected position among all American shooters.
He took annual leave for the next couple of days.
At that time, the U.S. Border Patrol's issue revolver was the New Service Colt four inch .38 Special, with a blued finish. At the same time, the Texas Highway Patrol was issued the identical revolver, except in a nickel finish. Our miscreant border officer was no dummy. He realized that the chief of his station would track down the locker shooter, even if it meant calling in every New Service in the outfit and making ballistics comparisons of the bullet in his overcoat and a specimen from every gun in the sector.
The young officer happened to have a friend who who served as armorer for the highway patrol in San Antonio. He spent two days in the pretty town, sweating as the gunsmith removed the barrel from the guilty gun, nickeled it, removed the barrel from a highway patrol gun, denickeled and blued it, then swapped barrels.
In those days, brother officers stuck together.
An investigation, including a lot of sticky interrogation, was made (although I don't know whether they ever actually got around to bullet comparisons) but in the end, the matter of the gun-shot locker was marked unsolved.
Out of my high regard for him, and a certain uneasiness over what he knows of my own spotted past, I must decline to identify the clandestine locker shooter.

author: Skeeter Skelton

Standing Wolf
August 9, 2003, 07:08 PM
author: Skeeter Skelton

I still miss him.

RSatterwhite
August 24, 2009, 08:02 PM
Enjoyed reading this thread, Jordan s a real legend. I just read no second place winner and really enjoyed it. I inherited the book from my Dad who passed away last year and he had tried to get me to read the book for a long time but i never made the time until this week. It's autographed by Jordan 2-19-1970. I'm pretty sure they were at a pistol competition somewhere.

jimmyraythomason
August 24, 2009, 08:35 PM
I gave my copy of "No Second Place Winner" to my son-in-law when he graduated the police academy.

amd6547
August 24, 2009, 08:37 PM
One of the greatest memories of two summers I spent at Camp Perry around 1980 was meeting Bill Jordan and getting to shake his (huge) hand.

KenWP
August 24, 2009, 08:47 PM
I have a freind that served with Bill in the Border Patrol. I used to buy the one magizine he wrote for just to read his stuff and then stopped buying it when he stopped writting for it. Same with Skeeter. All the good writers seem to have died off. Sheriff Wilson writes some good stuff also.

Robert Wilson
August 24, 2009, 08:52 PM
I have heard the story for better than twenty years and have never seen any real evidence for it. I regard it as urban legend.

Deltaboy
August 24, 2009, 09:16 PM
URBAN Legend IMO I got to meet Mr Jordan at a gun show in Little Rock Ar back in the 1980's. He signed my copy of No Second place winner. Jordan advice o me was Practice Practice Practice. Start slow using correct form and build speed.

Few men have ever really Impressed me. Mr. Jordan was one of 5 that left a real impression and that I left my 3 minutes spent with him with a deep and abiding respect for what he said and wrote.

With Jordan, Sketter, Cooper,and Keith gone Gun writters other than Mass are like hens teeth.

Acera
August 24, 2009, 09:19 PM
444 wrote: Yes

Do you have a reference??

SaxonPig
August 24, 2009, 10:26 PM
This came up about 2 years and I couldn't believe it. I did some serious research and apparently there was considerable effort by somebody... the Border Patrol, maybe... to cover it up but a BP officer was indeed accidentally shot and killed in a patrol station by another officer who was showing off some fancy gun handling in the next room. I cannot offer proof positive but the info I dug up at the time indicated that it was Bill Jordan who killed the BP officer.

I believe this is the incident involving Jordan but note that the officer responsible for the shooting is not identified.

John A. Rector
Date of Birth: August 23, 1898

Began at INS: March 13, 1928

TITLE: Patrol Inspector

Date Died: October 16, 1956

DETAILS: At approximately 11:30 a.m., October 16, 1956, Patrol Inspector John A. Rector was accidentally shot by the firing of a .357 Magnum revolver by a fellow officer. The mishap occurred at the Chula Vista Sector Headquarters where two officers were discussing various guns and their limitations and advantages. During the course of the conversation, the .357 Magnum was unloaded, examined, then reloaded, and placed in a desk drawer. The two officers then examined a .22 revolver and soon the discussion returned to the .357 Magnum. At this point one of the officers reached into the desk drawer, picked up the pistol, and without realizing that it had been reloaded, pulled the trigger.The bullet passed through a partition wall into Patrol Inspector Rector's office where it struck him in the left jaw and ranged up through his head. Upon arrival of an ambulance and a doctor, Patrol Inspector Rector was removed to the Paradise Valley Hospital in National City. Two neurosurgeons from San Diego were called; however, nothing could be done for Inspector Rector. He died at approximately 2:00 p.m. the same day.

mnrivrat
August 25, 2009, 03:23 AM
Yes - the story is true and has been varified through the years. A tragic accident.

.38 Special
August 25, 2009, 08:35 PM
Then it should be pretty easy to verify one more time, don't you think?

I've never seen it verified and think it's a real shame we're so eager to sully a good man's name on the flimsiest of evidence.

mnrivrat
August 25, 2009, 11:00 PM
I've known about this for many years - no need for me to dig up the past . If you don't want to believe it , then don't .

Bill was ,and still is, a respected name in the firearm world . I never expected my friends, or my mentors, to be perfect - stuff happens - it was an accident - history.

DR505
September 2, 2009, 07:40 PM
Sorry .38 Special...it is true. I worked with many USBP members years ago. Some of the old timers I worked with in 1990 new Bill Jordan and they told me the story.

You can choose to disbelieve this, but that doesn't change facts. Bill caused a tragic accident. No one is perfect, and it does not change all the good he has done.

.38 Special
September 2, 2009, 07:50 PM
Hell, I know the moon landing was faked. I know it because I knew some guy who knew some guy and he told me.

You don't have to believe it if you don't want to but it's still true -- because it's written on the internet!

TexasBill
September 2, 2009, 08:21 PM
I knew Bill Jordan close to thirty-five years ago and had the chance to talk to him on several occasions when he was in Austin. He once actually gave me and some other officers a little one-on-several time to improve our own pistol-handling and I had a personally autographed copy of No Second-Place Winner. I wore a Don Hume rig with a River Belt and Jordan-style holster for years and have always thought it was the best, and most comfortable, rig I ever buckled on. Because of Jordan's influence, I carried a Model 19 Combat Magnum for a while but I eventually went back to the S&W Model 27 (with the old 3.5-inch barrel) because I liked to "experiment" with my reloads and the heavier gun could digest them better.

The story is true and it was something Bill regretted for years; it ultimately led to his retirement and subsequent work for the NRA. Accidents can happen to the best of us and Bill was one of the best. He was a big man in body and spirit and, sadly, his like shall probably not pass this way again. As he used to say, "He'll do to ride the river with."

DR505
September 3, 2009, 02:30 PM
Well .38 Special...sorry you feel that way. I guess I should not trust those that were actually there at the time...perhaps their "false" memories were implanted.

.38 Special
September 3, 2009, 10:47 PM
With all due respect, you are a stranger on the internet posting under a pseudonym. That's the point of my moon landing post: under the circumstances, anyone here can write anything at all. Simply repeating "It's true!" doesn't accomplish anything.

DR505
September 4, 2009, 12:17 AM
With all due respect, you are a stranger on the internet posting under a pseudonym. That's the point of my moon landing post: under the circumstances, anyone here can write anything at all. Simply repeating "It's true!" doesn't accomplish anything.

Well .38, that is a very good point. Never thought about it that way! I guess you'll just have to keep searching then. It is sad but true, and if I knew you "for real" I'll bet you'd believe what I said.

akodo
September 4, 2009, 01:02 AM
I've known about this for many years - no need for me to dig up the past . If you don't want to believe it , then don't .

Well .38 Special...sorry you feel that way. I guess I should not trust those that were actually there at the time...perhaps their "false" memories were implanted.

Saying one man accidentally killed another is a pretty damning and bold statement. It should ONLY be made if you have evidence to back it up IMHO.

Saying 'you don't have to believe me' or 'well these guys who were there told me' is B.S.

I have seen no evidence that he did. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. However, it seems pretty darn reasonable to ask anyone who makes such a drastic and serious claim that such a claim be backed up.

If you see those who doubt such a statement as a personal attack against you, back up and get some perspective. Claiming one man accidentally killed another should ALWAYS be verified, be it about your next door neighbor, your senator, or a famous gun writer.

mnrivrat
September 4, 2009, 03:10 AM
Saying one man accidentally killed another is a pretty damning and bold statement. It should ONLY be made if you have evidence to back it up IMHO.

Saying 'you don't have to believe me' or 'well these guys who were there told me' is B.S.

I think the point is what evidence would you like ? and if you don't believe someone who tells you the truth, then what would you believe, and why can't you do the research yourself ?

Over the years reference to this incident has popped up in many publications , it is not a new story, it is old history. I assume people who can post on forums, can also google search for whatever confirmation that satisfies them.

DR505
September 4, 2009, 12:10 PM
Saying one man accidentally killed another is a pretty damning and bold statement. It should ONLY be made if you have evidence to back it up IMHO.

Saying 'you don't have to believe me' or 'well these guys who were there told me' is B.S.

I have seen no evidence that he did. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. However, it seems pretty darn reasonable to ask anyone who makes such a drastic and serious claim that such a claim be backed up.

If you see those who doubt such a statement as a personal attack against you, back up and get some perspective. Claiming one man accidentally killed another should ALWAYS be verified, be it about your next door neighbor, your senator, or a famous gun writer.

So the old timer US Border Patrol Agents I worked with, who knew Jordan, can't be relied upon to tell me the truth? You must live in an interesting world.

SharpsDressedMan
September 4, 2009, 01:16 PM
I would think it would just as likely be true as untrue, until we see some documentation. Let's just believe whichever way we BELIEVE, and not try to insist on a final statement until proven. As far as rumors and past information, I, too, had heard many years ago of the accidental shooting. That does not make it a fact, but it leads me to believe that old Bill would have probably denied it in his columns in the gun mags (at the time the story came to my attention, late 60's), as he was around at the time. I also met him at Camp Perry, but I had no desire to raise the topic at the time. I also met another fella who had accidentally killed a friend during a hunt, at age 15. I didn't press him either, but he did tell me about it, and with much remorse. It is sad enough that ANYONE would have to carry that memory around in their life. And for that, let us all reflect on the importance of the safety of gun handling in our own futures.

Paradiddle
September 4, 2009, 02:10 PM
This is very interesting to me.

Here is what "google" had. Frankly I cannot find any evidence that isn't on a forum that states it was Bill that fired the pistol.

The San Diego fallen agent website has this:

Patrol Agent John A. Rector
End of Watch: October 16, 1956
United States Border Patrol
Agent Rector was accidentally shot and killed by a fellow agent who was discussing gun limitations with a third agent at the Chula Vista Sector Headquarters in California. The two agents had unloaded the .357 caliber handgun while examining it, reloaded it, and placed it in a drawer as they began to discuss a different weapon. The discussion returned to the .357 and one of the agents removed it from the drawer, not realizing it had been reloaded. When he pulled the trigger the gun discharged and round passed through the wall and struck Agent Rector in the head as he sat at his desk. He was transported to a local hospital where he succumbed to the wound several hours later.

http://www.sdmemorial.org/index.php?/memorial/comments/C10/

I find a bunch of forum posts that state that it was Jordan, but nothing in writing from a "source". I'm not saying anyone here is lying, but it would be nice to see it documented in some form other then "I knew Bill Jordan or his friends, etc" Even if an agent who worked with him says so doesn't necessarily make it true - rumors start everywhere and information gets distorted.

You would think that some anti Jordan group would have dug this up and published something.

SharpsDressedMan
September 4, 2009, 07:21 PM
Probably anyone old enough to have been there is dead of old age, or doesn't surf the net very much........

.38 Special
September 4, 2009, 09:55 PM
I think the point is what evidence would you like ? and if you don't believe someone who tells you the truth, then what would you believe, and why can't you do the research yourself ?

So the old timer US Border Patrol Agents I worked with, who knew Jordan, can't be relied upon to tell me the truth? You must live in an interesting world.

Again, strangers on the internet posting under pseudonyms. There's nothing preventing me from claiming that I was Bill Jordan's best buddy and that he swore on a stack of bibles that it never happened. But because I'm a stranger posting on the internet under a pseudonym, the claim is no substitute for actual proof.

Over the years reference to this incident has popped up in many publications , it is not a new story, it is old history. I assume people who can post on forums, can also google search for whatever confirmation that satisfies them.

Well, I'm ridiculously well read on firearms in general, revolvers in particular, and Bill Jordan specifically, and I've never seen a single reference to it in "legitimate" gun media. The only thing I have ever seen on the subject is dozens of threads just like this one, and none of them have ever presented any of the supposedly widely available evidence either. The characteristics they all seem to share are A) "I knew someone who had first-hand knowledge of it", B) The Fallen Agent quote, and C) "Jeez, just Google it!"

I freely admit the possibility that it actually happened. I just think that an accusation so serious, about a man with such a giant reputation, should either be backed up with something solid or left unsaid entirely.

akodo
September 5, 2009, 04:33 AM
I think the point is what evidence would you like ? and if you don't believe someone who tells you the truth, then what would you believe, and why can't you do the research yourself ?

Over the years reference to this incident has popped up in many publications , it is not a new story, it is old history. I assume people who can post on forums, can also google search for whatever confirmation that satisfies them.

I would like the standard evidence to be brought forth: citation in published material, be it magazine, newspaper, book, or whatever.

I did google search and I did not find any evidence, but much internet rumor

akodo
September 5, 2009, 04:36 AM
So the old timer US Border Patrol Agents I worked with, who knew Jordan, can't be relied upon to tell me the truth? You must live in an interesting world.

No, they cannot be relied on to tell the truth because I have no idea who you are. You could be a 13 year old keyboard commando.

Tell me, how should I distinguish you from them?

If you are putting yourself up as the source of information, state who you are...or PM the person who questions you.

Even then, you are hearing second hand information. Ever hang out in a gunstore and here tall tales? I have no idea if what you heard was accurate or just storytelling. But you know how you deal with that? By stating the name of the person who made the claim, so others can verify that info.

Saying "I know X! Believe me! But who I am is a SECRET" doesn't hold any water.

mbt2001
September 5, 2009, 07:35 AM
I agree with .38 special. If you can't document it, then it didn't happen. I don't gossip, certainly about life and death and someones reputation.

By the way, in order to believe this story you would have to believe that a seasoned Border Patrol Agent, who severed in world war 2 clearing caves in the pacific theater, who then went back to serving in the BP then deployed again in Korea, again came back to the BP, then helped Smith and Wesson design the K frame, THEN accidentally shot someone, THEN later sold 2 book and maintained his reputation as one of the preeminent pistoleros of his day....

mnrivrat
September 5, 2009, 08:28 AM
I'll waste a little time and give one published reference to the indident.

DOWN ON THE BORDER Draw!
Though I didn't actually see it, I've heard some rather sketchy stories about a television set being center-punched with a .45 Colt slug in the living room of our house.
By Bart Skelton Posted: 01-06-09 Categories: Down on the Border
Remember the opening scene of "Gunsmoke"? When Marshall Dillon shoots the bad guy in the street? Dillon's opponent was, of course, the famous trick shooter Arvo Ojala. In real life Ojala was a fast-draw artist, able to draw and fire a sixgun in just over a half-second.

My dad watched me carefully, and as I got a little older, he began warning me of the evils of the fast-draw, advising me to never mess around with it.

But I do know that Dad did mess around with it some, though, back when he was a young man. Though I didn't actually see it, I've heard some rather sketchy stories about a television set being center-punched with a .45 Colt slug in the living room of our house. More than likely, that's the reason Dad lectured me against any fanciful ideas I might have secretly had about strapping on one of his Colts in front of the mirror and taking on an imaginary bad guy.

I was fortunate enough to have known one of the greatest fast-draw men to have lived, Bill Jordan. Bill and my dad were compadres, and I had the good fortune of tagging along during some of their escapades.

Bill was a fascinating man. His career with the U.S. Border Patrol is still talked about today, though he retired in the mid-1960s. He'd been a Marine during World War II in the South Pacific and a tough, old-school gentleman throughout his life.

Bill's skills with a Smith & Wesson double-action revolver were tremendous. He loved the Model 19, and back in the 1960s my dad had a great one built for his own use as a federal investigator on the Mexican border. Bill showed up for a visit and took a liking to Dad's Model 19, fingering it during his entire stay.

When he left, Bill left his own Model 19 on the kitchen table and stuck Dad's in his waistband."Skeet, you can have yours back when mine's just as slick," Bill said in his low southern drawl.

A short time later, Dad was down on the Rio Grande working a case on a bad bunch of marijuana smugglers. It was after dark, and the smugglers were starting to cross the river with their load of weed when things went bad. Gunfire erupted, and things got a little confusing.

One of the smugglers was wearing a straw cowboy hat that was almost white in color. Dad was carrying Jordan's Model 19 but forgot that it shot high for him and he hadn't adjusted the sights. Estimating the point directly between the smuggler's eyes, Dad squeezed off a shot. The smuggler ran safely back into Mexico unhurt but more than a little shaken. Dad and his partners managed to get the shipment of weed, but not the smugglers—just the white hat. It had a .357 hole dead center through the crown, a shot that likely took a few of the smuggler's topknot hairs off but inflicted no more damage than that. (No fast-draw was involved, by the way.)

When the old man arrived home early the next morning from the caper, I was just headed off to school. Dad handed me the white hat with the bullet hole in it, and I wore it around for a while. "I can thank that damned Jordan for that ol' boy gettin' away," I later heard him comment.

I saw Bill demonstrate his lightning-fast draw technique firsthand a few times. The records he set have since been beaten, but it sure wasn't an easy feat. Jerry Miculek is pretty much recognized as the top revolver man around. Over the years, Jerry has managed to surpass Bill's incredible speed, but it was accomplished only with great effort .

Bill's classic book, No Second Place Winner, remains a must-read defensive-shooting book. And while it does make reference to fast-shooting techniques, it's not just about fast-draw.

One thing I know for sure about Bill, safety was always first in his eyes. He experienced a tragic incident while practicing his fast-draw technique while a Border Patrol Agent, and he vowed to never have such an accident occur again.

Bill's words of advice to me were clear: When you're dry-firing for practice and reload your sidearm, strap it down and think about what you're doing every time you plan to draw it again.

That turned out to be pretty good advice. While I readily admit I've experienced an embarrassing pistol discharge, thankfully it wasn't in the direction of the television.

mbt2001
September 5, 2009, 10:09 AM
One thing I know for sure about Bill, safety was always first in his eyes. He experienced a tragic incident while practicing his fast-draw technique while a Border Patrol Agent, and he vowed to never have such an accident occur again.

Hardly conclusive... I think that there is a story of Bill Jordan in his early early early days with the border patrol had a Winchester 1897 shotgun get away from them and put a charge beneath the legs of the Capt or whomever... His Boss in any event. No one hurt or anything... I think it was Jordan...

I will withhold judgement. Other than a lot of speculation on the internet and an acknowledgement that something happened once, we don't have anything. Certainly nothing that says he killed someone.

mnrivrat
September 5, 2009, 01:42 PM
I have read the text of this incident in the past . What do you think Bart's recall of a tragic incident refers to ? A broken finger nail ?

Most of the specific published data came long ago before the internet so purhaps there isn't as much posted on this subject floating around in cyberspace. It has been published in major shooting magazines but even then it wasn't the steady topic of a news year.

I said I was wasting my time because I knew the results would be "hardly conclusive" to those who choose not to believe this happened. As I stated in my first post - I don't need to dig deeper for more conclusive data. If you do, then dig away, or choose to call it BS if you like. No skin off my arshe . How about your prove me wrong.

mbt2001
September 5, 2009, 02:07 PM
Well see, for me to prove me wrong is antithetical to the American way. You made the accusation, you have to prove it.

As far as a tragic accident, that doesn't mean KILLED someone. It could very well mean that he shot his dog, shot someone in the arm, shot the coffee mug out of someones hands.... The reason the AD / ND are scary is because they have the CAPACITY to kill and if it didn't happen, then it is just luck.

Could I believe it? Yes. But I will say that things like that tend to get mentioned in Biographies and Obituaries.

pmeisel
September 5, 2009, 09:15 PM
I don't remember how many times I have read, in publications, about Jordan's tragic incident. I can tell you that several times I read it, it was "before Al Gore invented the internet". And Jordan was still alive and kicking to deny it.

cassandrasdaddy
September 5, 2009, 09:35 PM
there was a time before the internet? that was probably a time where a man could make a mistake own it and move on if he was a man character folks would respect and forgive him . mr jordan was and folks did. of course back then no one hired a publicist to spin things either. i read about the incident when i was younger but only once or twice. it was a different time in the us. to me a better time

mnrivrat
September 6, 2009, 06:10 AM
OK - How about this ? Tragic Reality , or made up fantasy ?




Bill Jordan also killed a fellow Border Patrol Inspector back in the day while carelessly playing with his gun at his desk.

here is a little more info from the Officer Down webpage:

The Officer Down Memorial Page remembers...

Patrol Agent John A. Rector
United States Department of Justice - Border Patrol, US
End of Watch: Tuesday, October 16, 1956


United States Department of Justice - Border Patrol

Biographical Info
Age: 58
Tour of Duty: 28 yr
Badge Number: Not available

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire (Accidental)
Date of Incident: Tuesday, October 16, 1956
State of Incident: California
Weapon Used: Officer's handgun
Suspect Info: Not available
Agent Rector was accidentally shot and killed by a fellow agent (Bill Jordan) who was discussing gun limitations with a third agent at the Chula Vista Sector Headquarters in California. The two agents had unloaded the .357 caliber handgun while examining it, reloaded it, and placed it in a drawer as they began to discuss a different weapon. The discussion returned to the .357 and one of the agents(Bill Jordan) removed it from the drawer, not realizing it had been reloaded. When he pulled the trigger the gun discharged and round passed through the wall and struck Agent Rector in the head as he sat at his desk. He was transported to a local hospital where he succumbed to the wound several hours later.

Agent Rector had been with the agency for 28 years.

coloradokevin
September 6, 2009, 07:01 AM
I agree with .38 special. If you can't document it, then it didn't happen. I don't gossip, certainly about life and death and someones reputation.

I agree. I'd like to see documentation on this incident before I truly believe it. Internet conjecture just doesn't cut it. Unfortunately the spread of urban legends seems to have gone to a whole new level with the advent of the internet web forum. Maybe this did happen, and maybe it didn't. But, just like in college, I'd like to see references before I go and believe something.

By the way, in order to believe this story you would have to believe that a seasoned Border Patrol Agent, who severed in world war 2 clearing caves in the pacific theater, who then went back to serving in the BP then deployed again in Korea, again came back to the BP, then helped Smith and Wesson design the K frame, THEN accidentally shot someone, THEN later sold 2 book and maintained his reputation as one of the preeminent pistoleros of his day....

True, but I have known of a few top-tier shooters who have had AD's over the years (one into his television, another into a mirror). So, it could have happened even to a man like this, I suppose.

rick newland
September 6, 2009, 01:00 PM
You on drugs? Bill Jordans name was never mentioned.

Agent Rector was accidentally shot and killed by a fellow agent who was discussing gun limitations with a third agent at the Chula Vista Sector Headquarters in California. The two agents had unloaded the .357 caliber handgun while examining it, reloaded it, and placed it in a drawer as they began to discuss a different weapon. The discussion returned to the .357 and one of the agents removed it from the drawer, not realizing it had been reloaded. When he pulled the trigger the gun discharged and round passed through the wall and struck Agent Rector in the head as he sat at his desk. He was transported to a local hospital where he succumbed to the wound several hours later.

Agent Rector had been with the agency for 28 years.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/11072-patrol-agent-john-a.-rector

Acera
September 6, 2009, 01:51 PM
I find it less than ethical to add the persons name into the report. If you are going to present the report as evidence, please don't tamper with the original contents.

From the report, it could have been either of the two agents in the room, both of which are unnamed.

Now if there is another report available that more clearly defines the incident, and includes the roles played by named individuals, that would suffice for me.

Thanks for the link rick newland

bshnt2015
September 6, 2009, 02:03 PM
http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/IMG_5068.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/IMG_5072-1.jpg

Bill signed this book years ago.

mnrivrat
September 6, 2009, 02:58 PM
I find it less than ethical to add the persons name into the report. If you are going to present the report as evidence, please don't tamper with the original contents.

You on drugs? Bill Jordans name was never mentioned.

If you lazy blind people bothered to have looked, that entire report was in quotation. You should note then that the name (Bill Jordan) ,as printed, is part of the report , and not added by me . The information was cut and pasted as it is seen.

I suppose it is easier to try to discredit me, than to look it up yourself, but then I do take offense to your method. Only over the internet will you get by with that.
I find it ignorant of people to disbelieve the reports of this incident simply because they think Bill was some sort of gun god, and therefore incapable of making a mistake. I can respect a person with my eyes still open , I don't have to close them and use my imagination.

sourdough44
September 6, 2009, 03:39 PM
I have heard it & sadly take it to be true.

mnrivrat
September 6, 2009, 06:09 PM
Review of the orignal report does not mention the officer(s) involved , but it has been widely established that this was the incident Bill was involved in.

The cut and past I did was from a source that had filled in his name, and therefore one could make argument that they got it wrong. I was not there, and therefore, since I have read a number of accounts over the last 40 years, from different sources, that attribute this to Jordan - I believe it to be credible.

That is as far as I need to go with this argument.

Acera
September 7, 2009, 12:38 AM
If you lazy blind people bothered to have looked

We did look, and were not fooled by your altered and false representation of an original document. Before calling us out, maybe you should not be so lazy and check out the story you so strongly present as truth. Google the dead officers name, and you can find copies of that report on at least 6 sites, and not in the doctored state you presented it.


That is as far as I need to go with this argument.

Nice, call members lazy and then run off and hide, your ethics need a strong review. Be a man and admit your mistake. This is not only about the truth of the story, but about your presenting false information, and criticizing those of us who did the right thing and checked out your claims. Time for you to man up, if you can.:cuss:

mnrivrat
September 7, 2009, 01:46 AM
False informtion ?? < insult removed>

The document presented was the orignal report that someone had bothered to put Bills name in the area's noted for people to understand who was being talked about. Not my alteration, as I already explained. And not false information either . Simply clarification on the part of the publisher of this particular accounting.

Now if you bothered to look up that much information you should have also by now found enough references to this incident, and Bills roll in it by a number of valid sources. This has been presented by other gun writers and historians and therefore nothing false about the data, even though Bill's name was used by someone other than me in this particular accounting.

So what mistake should I man up to, other than to argue with people like you ?

Bruno2
September 7, 2009, 02:03 AM
This is really a terrible thing that is happening to a legend and a (more than likely) great man that served his country all of his life . The debate here is making me think that whatever good a man has done in his life will be overshadowed by a very tragic accident . Let's assume the story is true . Is this how the man should be remembered ? I think the tragedy here is that people are wanting to bring up the worst time in somebodies life .

There was a pro baseball player by the name of Robin Ventura . This guy is or will be inducted into the b-ball hall of fame for his stolen base record . Robin was at bat against the Texas Rangers and Nolan was pitching . Nolan tried to earhole him .Robin (a young man fresh out of OSU) decided that he was going to charge the mound and sevre 47yr old Nolan Ryan an azz whoopin deluxe . When he got there Ryan put something on him that Ajax couldnt take off . When it was all said and done no matter how many records Ventura set and broke when his name comes up people say "Wasnt that the guy Nolan Ryan tore the azz off of "

Trying to find truth in Jordans accident is noy a good way to honor his memory .

CornCod
September 7, 2009, 04:35 AM
Men of extremely good character and great intelligence sometimes can do stupid things. I have no problem accepting the fact that the late Mr. Jordan had a terrible lapse of judgement on a particular date and time. As far as I am concerned only one man never made a mistake or did anything stupid. We celebrate his birthday on December
25th!

JWM
September 7, 2009, 10:26 AM
There has to be an original police report on file somewhere. Perhaps the Chula Vista PD, or whatever county encompasses Chula Vista. Maybe the local sheriff's department did the investigation. Request a Freedom of Information Act disclosure (or the Calif equivalent). We could get the report released, but then they might blacken out the names to protect "privacy". Anybody up to the task ?

Art Eatman
September 7, 2009, 10:43 AM
Take an Olde Phart's word for it: Yeah, Jordan screwed up. The thing that's important is that ya gotta remember that even the best of the best can screw up in a moment of carelessness.

Omar the Tentmaker wrote about it a thousand years ago:

The moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on;
Nor all your piety and wit can lure it back to cancel half a line,
Nor all your tears wash out a word of it.

I reckon Jordan had many a tear in the dark hours of his nights. He seemed like that kind of guy, the times I met him.

Don't. Screw. Up.

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