Which handguns are used by US "Special Forces"?


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.455_Hunter
March 18, 2008, 04:05 PM
Greetings,

What handguns are used by the elite military units in this country?

I know several brands of 1911 platforms are out "in the field", plus things like the H&K SOCOM, but what else is there?

Please reply if you know anything.

Thanks,

Hunter

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Hoppy590
March 18, 2008, 04:26 PM
sig P226 (P226 Navy), P228 (M11)

the only 1911 i know of in use is the MEU SOC M1911 (Marine Expeditionary Unit Special Operations Command)

but then again, what these guys use, who knows.

MarcusWendt
March 18, 2008, 04:57 PM
SEALs are carrying the Sig Sauer P226 and they are very happy with them.

Newton
March 18, 2008, 05:44 PM
Plus a few suppressed Ruger Mk.IIs.

Zoogster
March 18, 2008, 05:47 PM
Does it really mean much? The ones that can get what they want get a lot of special purpose weapons for use in specific situations.
Which really just shows no one gun is good for everything.
What is standard issue for such individuals means very little as it may not be what they usualy use.

The rest deal with what they are issued, which can be dictated as much by politics or cost as what is most desired at the time by those in the field.


For such people a pistol is often one of the least important pieces of gear. Proficiency is very important if it is needed especialy in very tight spaces, but it is rarely a primary weapon. That means the selection process for a pistol is not of the highest priority.
Many are less likely to use thier leverage to get a pistol than to get a better primary tool for an objective.

Basing what is an ideal weapon on what a government agency uses is silly at best.
Instead do what those who have the freedom to pick and choose thier gear for each mission do. Pick something that is best suited to your own unique "mission" (whatever that might be), which has its own unique parameters, and therefore its own unique ideal weapon platform.

.455_Hunter
March 18, 2008, 06:29 PM
Hi Zoogster,

Please understand this request is NOT to help me or anybody else select a sidearm for their defensive/offensive use. The purpose is solely academic, kinda like asking what models of light tanks were used by the Allies in WWII.

Hunter

marksman13
March 18, 2008, 06:43 PM
Along with the above mentioned pistols, the SF guys I saw in country were carrying what appeared to be plain jane M92 Berrettas.

jhco
March 18, 2008, 06:46 PM
i know that some special units use the h&k usp mk23

plexreticle
March 18, 2008, 06:47 PM
I don't see a big advantage of a 226 over an M9 other than cool factor.

Jason_G
March 18, 2008, 06:50 PM
I think alot of those guys can carry pretty much whatever they want. Seems like there is someone on this forum that is/was/claimed to be an armorer that said he had seen everything from USP45 tacticals to Glocks to Colts to Sigs.


Jason

Baneblade
March 20, 2008, 11:59 AM
Most of the Army SF guys I worked with and the Delta guys I saw (never worked with them in any way) had M9's.

I recently attended a one week shooting course with 20 other combat veterans. None had ever used a handgun in combat.

TheLastBoyScout
March 20, 2008, 12:22 PM
I don't see a big advantage of a 226 over an M9 other than cool factor.

Some naval aviators have 228s for compactness/ease of carry on the survival vest.

The story with the 226s is related to the old story about the seal's kabooming an early issue M9.... so the advantage over an M9 is purely "it's not the M9, because they had trust issues with the M9".

Hoppy590
March 20, 2008, 03:35 PM
The story with the 226s is related to the old story about the seal's kabooming an early issue M9.... so the advantage over an M9 is purely "it's not the M9, because they had trust issues with the M9".

early M9's had issues with the locking block failing. so i understand

rcmodel
March 20, 2008, 03:48 PM
Later traced to some unit getting thier hands on a large supply of M905, Blue-Pill, 50,000 PSI, pressure-test ammo that should have never been issued to them.
Or used for training

So I understand.

rcmodel

OMGWTFBBQ
March 20, 2008, 03:55 PM
I don't see a big advantage of a 226 over an M9 other than cool factor.Smaller? Doesn't make the recoil of the 9mm feel like 22lr due to it being far heavier than it needs to be?
i know that some special units use the h&k usp mk23
Yes, and pretty much all of them hate it, because it's about the size and weight of a desert eagle.


From what I've heard, SF gets what SF wants, and that can vary.

Crow1108
March 20, 2008, 04:28 PM
From what I understand, certain units get an "allowance" to purchase their own sidearms. Alot of them go with 1911s. It seems to be more along the lines of personal preference.

former-redberet
March 20, 2008, 05:21 PM
Being a former red beret (hense the name) I can tell you for a fact the arms room issue for the Special Forces at Bragg is the Berreta 9mm...however, as one stated before the Special Forces guys do whatever they want and carry anything the want. They usually carried sigs and high end 1911's with the occasional issue 9's as far as combat wear goes. I never, not one time saw any of them carry a polymer of any sorts (dont know why). Though I did see a few glocks down range but they weren't carried (just to play with while wasting a few combat loads, playing at the range etc)

Onmilo
March 21, 2008, 10:57 AM
Back in my days at Ft. Bragg most of the Green Berets were carrying something like this:
http://www.fototime.com/A6FABDFBF6A0803/standard.jpg
A lightly modified service 1911A1 .45acp National Match hardball gun

Now I think most of them are carrying this:
http://www.fototime.com/D634FC6CB9C5D7E/standard.jpg
A standard M9, though I bet they have access to Knights Armament barrels and sound suppressors for these pistols now.

APIT50
March 21, 2008, 11:23 AM
Those that I know of carry M9 Berrettas and some carry Glock 17's. For sidearms anyway. Whatever they want for longguns and subs/Machine guns, The biggest problem we have with the M9's are that the military contracts to buy cheap mags like Checkmate feeding issues are common

Chindo18Z
March 21, 2008, 11:34 AM
Onmilo has it right.

Army SF "issued" weapons are M9s (Beretta 92FS) and M11s (SIG 228) along with some in-house upgraded GI 1911A1s for certain Groups. The M9s and M11s are MTOE, and the 1911A1s are MTOE issued "in lieu of" when M9's run short.

Additional carry weapons (encountered in noticeable numbers downrange) are Glock 17s/19s/22s and a sprinkling of BHPs/Makarovs. Depends upon who else you are working with and where you are at.

I've yet to actually see anyone haul around the HK MK23 on a mission (other than NAVSOF). We don't have any in our arms rooms except for a few training examples.

POWs are extremely verboten...despite popular internet legend.

former-redberet
March 21, 2008, 03:20 PM
Guess I had it wrong :rolleyes:

Halo
March 21, 2008, 04:28 PM
Additional carry weapons (encountered in noticeable numbers downrange) are Glock 17s/19s/22s and a sprinkling of BHPs/Makarovs. Depends upon who else you are working with and where you are at.

I'm curious, is there any reason they'd carry Makarovs other than being able to scavenge parts and ammo in areas dominated by Eastern Bloc weaponry? I love my Mak but never would've guessed any special forces guys would choose one over other options.

rgrwatson85
March 21, 2008, 07:20 PM
From my time in the 1st Battalion 75th Ranger Regiment I can tell you this.

Rangers use these weapons in all infantry platoons. M4A1, MK46 5.56mm machine gun, MK48 7.62mm machinegun. The only issued sidearm is the M9. Ofcourse other weapons are used like the good ol' .50 cal. The MK19 has been replaced by the newer MK47. I suggest checking it out online. Very cool weapons system. The M240B still sees a little bit of action mounted on top of vehicles.

Regular SF guys use just about the same thing as we did. SFOD-D guys, from what I have seen working with them primarily use the HK 416 rifle. I have only seen a few carry sidearms. They had a Glock .40 Not sure what model because I dont know anything about Glocks.

The Airforce PJ's used M4's and occasionally an M-9 was seen. Usually no sidearms were used because they are not a fighting force. They are like Firefighter Rescue Men.

Seal Team 6 uses the 416 as well. No sidearms were seen. Ever. I have never worked with any other Seal teams. While I'm on the subject of Seals I would just like to share my dislike for them. They are not that great of a unit. Everytime we worked with them overseas they royally screwed things up. They are very diva-like with no reason to be. Just remember that the battle of Takr Ghar was caused by a dumb Navy Seal who decided he wasn't gonna snap into the bird and then got thrown from it. Got a lotta people hurt and Sgt. Bradley Crose, Cpl. Matthew Commons, and Spc. Mark Anderson died because of it.

Sorry...done ranting. Short story. Sidearms are rarely used in the Special Operations and Special Forces Community. :)

RGRWATSON
Sua Sponte

Chindo18Z
March 21, 2008, 08:14 PM
Halo: "I'm curious, is there any reason they'd carry Makarovs other than being able to scavenge parts and ammo in areas dominated by Eastern Bloc weaponry? I love my Mak but never would've guessed any special forces guys would choose one over other options."

They are prevalent and concealable. Not normally chosen over anything else, just useful for certain circumstances or as a BUG. Nice tribal leather available in the 'Stan. When in Rome...

rgrwatson: "Sidearms are rarely used in the Special Operations and Special Forces Community."

I can see nothing has changed at 1st Batt... still not allowed to play with pistols? :). Sua Sponte Brother.

possum
March 21, 2008, 08:40 PM
i have seen some of the cool guys carrying glock 19's. and was told by some of them that they also have caspian 1911's but they do not ring them to the sandbox.

rgrwatson85
March 22, 2008, 12:23 AM
Ok Mr. 18Z... Thats enough outta you!:neener: The only ones of us in (or were in, in my case) Regiment that carry a sidearm are the MK46 and MK48 gunners. There really is no need for one. I dunno how many firefights you have been in but most engagements I have been in have required about 1 magazine.

Chindo18Z
March 22, 2008, 07:25 AM
rgrwatson85:

I'm real familiar with carrying sidearm while working crew-served, wore the scroll and tab before there WAS a Regiment, am intimately familiar with Shahi Khowt events, have multiple long tab tours to both Afghanistan and Iraq, will go back again (soon), have needed more than one pistol mag, and we issue pistols to everyone. ;)

So...At Ease in the harness there young Ranger :p

Thought about going 18 X-ray? It's still a good fight downrange...and you'd be needed and welcomed if you still hear the trumpet call.

rgrwatson85
March 22, 2008, 09:37 PM
No I did my time over there...I think I'm done. I got out in September after 5 tours. No more for me!! I'm giving the civilian life a shot and if it doesnt work out i'll go to selection. You can only be in Regiment for so long ya know?

Chindo18Z
March 22, 2008, 09:57 PM
Roger that. You have my sincere thanks and respect for your service.

I understand about the time in Rgt thing. It's what led me to the Q-Course many years ago.

Shaggy1227
March 24, 2009, 11:14 PM
My uncle served 3 combat tours (2 in Iraq, 1 Afghanistan) was carrying a Colt 1911 as a sidearm.

Borch
March 24, 2009, 11:38 PM
naval aviators have 228s for compactness/ease of carry on the survival vest.

Nope. All Navy pilots and aircrewmen carry P226's. Once upon a time when I was an Aviation Ordnanceman in the old USN my shop was responsible for maintaining the aircrew's sidearms. During the execution of said duty I made many a trip to the base armory where I was told by the Gunner's Mate 1st Class in charge that all pilots and aircrew had been switched over to the 226. Not to mention that I saw all the 226's in their racks organized by squadron, 1 weapon and 3 magazines for every pilot, RIO and aircrewman on base. Lotta guns.

We used to take the piltos and RIO's from our squadron to the range to qualify every year or so. Boy did they suck. I out shot all of them every time I went, in fact, I shot 146 out of 150 my first time out for my Expert Pistol ribbon.

Dan Crocker
March 25, 2009, 12:30 AM
Along with the above mentioned pistols, the SF guys I saw in country were carrying what appeared to be plain jane M92 Berrettas.
Yup. That's correct. Then again, there have been sweeping changes to the Groups in the last few years. They get lamer and lamer with each passing day, with guys wanting to move up to CAG and other organizations.

bondmid003
March 25, 2009, 03:09 AM
Borch, that's a pretty asinine generalized statement. Besides as a WSO myself I know there are about a million higher priority things on an aviators plate than shooting at the range. For the record I have never shot anything worse than expert

On the subject of the thread the M9 is probably the most prevelant sidearm in the US Specops communities. That shouldn't come as a surprise as its the most prevelant sidearm in the US armed forces. We carry them in the jet in theater although our Navy compatriots do in fact carry the Sig as part of their kit.

jaysouth
March 25, 2009, 11:18 AM
Chindo18Z

If you are still hanging out here, it is apparent that some posters do not understand terms like "special forces", special operations, etc.

Give us an up to date organizational tour and explain what 18-Zulu means.

Borch
March 25, 2009, 06:39 PM
Borch, that's a pretty asinine generalized statement.

You're right and I apologize. To correct my statement and be more specific I should ahve said that the pilots and crewmen in my squadron were not particularly good shots. I also understand that shooting is low on a pilots priority list, that is, until that pilot is on the ground in a combat zone, then it becomes a high priority in a big damn hurry. I just expected that people whose lives may someday depend on being able to hit a man with a sidearm would take it seriously.

With that being said I'm also surprised by some of the LEO's in my current agnecy and their apparent lack of caring about shooting skills. Again, I guess I just expected they would take potentially life saving skills more serious than they do.

bondmid003
March 25, 2009, 10:15 PM
jay, we all understand what special forces are, half of us including myself are in the military

jaysouth
March 25, 2009, 10:30 PM
Who are they?

What units are in Special Forces?

SquirrelNuts
March 25, 2009, 10:36 PM
18Z is the MOS for a Special Forces Senior Sergeant. They would be the senior NCO for a squad-sized team.

afvoo52
March 29, 2009, 10:59 AM
My son is currently in Iraq and he got to pick from a list of guns and equipment, he picked the H&K collapsing stock MP5 and the M9, his stateside issue was a Sig P228 to be fazed out as soon as his unit decides what the replacement weapon wil be.
He picked the M9 MP5 combo because they are both 9mm so ammo is compatable, also he felt if he needed ammo and or magazines during a firefight they would be more available from anyone who went down as the 9mm is much more commonly used by our troops.
Some special forces/ special ops get to pick equipment from a magazine as he did, he was told skies the limit.

JR47
March 29, 2009, 04:02 PM
While I'm on the subject of Seals I would just like to share my dislike for them.

Having worked with them, I would like to profess an alternate point. They are trained to operate in, and around, the maritime setting. That is what they're good at.

The worst example of SF that I ever witnessed was an Army "Small Boat" group playing sailor in the canals in Iraq. Apocalypse Now had better skills. They were dangerous to anyone who was within rifle shot, and managed to get their own killed through incompetence.

Soldiers in boats, or SCUBA, belong in comic books.

It's when people try to enter a new skill-set that problems erupt. Especially if they actually think that they know what they're doing. Leave the water to the SEALS if it's deeper than your shower stall. SEALS should leave over-land ops to the ground-pounders.

FYI, the P226 has a smaller/shorter trigger-reach than the M9, and is overall a smaller package. That can be important when doing precision shooting with normal hands. Pistols become important when operating in enclosed areas, or when operating in areas where long-arms would announce you.

Caeser2001
March 29, 2009, 04:09 PM
The worst example of SF that I ever witnessed was an Army "Small Boat" group playing sailor in the canals in Iraq. Apocalypse Now had better skills. They were dangerous to anyone who was within rifle shot, and managed to get their own killed through incompetence.

Soldiers in boats, or SCUBA, belong in comic books.

It's when people try to enter a new skill-set that problems erupt. Especially if they actually think that they know what they're doing. Leave the water to the SEALS if it's deeper than your shower stall. SEALS should leave over-land ops to the ground-pounders.

come on now, that makes too much sense:banghead:

chuckusaret
March 30, 2009, 12:45 AM
Soldiers in boats, or SCUBA, belong in comic books.
The Army has more boats than the Navy and more airplanes than the Air Force

bondmid003
March 30, 2009, 01:34 AM
All of those boats are landing craft and the Army has exactly 0 fixed wing aircraft or what most people would call "airplanes". What the Army does have alot of is Helos.

That being said being a Naval Aviator and having a decent understanding of both the Department of the Navy and Air Forces' aviation composition. I find it very hard to believe that the Army has more helos than the Air Force or Navy/Marine Corps has aircraft.

Dan Crocker
March 30, 2009, 02:09 AM
My son is currently in Iraq and he got to pick from a list of guns and equipment, he picked the H&K collapsing stock MP5 and the M9, his stateside issue was a Sig P228 to be fazed out as soon as his unit decides what the replacement weapon wil be.


Lucky guy.

chuckusaret
March 30, 2009, 10:24 AM
That being said being a Naval Aviator and having a decent understanding of both the Department of the Navy and Air Forces' aviation composition. I find it very hard to believe that the Army has more helos than the Air Force or Navy/Marine Corps has aircraft.

I have a pretty decent understanding of the Navy and its aircraft also. I was part of the management team at the Aviation Supply Office on Robbins Ave in Philly. We managed all Navy and Marine aircraft, spare engines and supplies. I was also responsible for the cross decking of aircraft, spare engines and spare parts. Not to belittle the aviators but flying was just a very small part of our war effort. Oh yes, the army does have fixed wing aircraft and does have more aircraft than the airforce.

Pilot
March 30, 2009, 10:28 AM
Oh yes, the army does have fixed wing aircraft and does have more aircraft than the airforce.


Let's clarify that. The Army may have more total aircraft than the Air Force, (not sure about that though) but the only reason is their large number of Rotorcraft. The Air Force has far more fixed wing aircraft than the Army. Most of the Army's fixed wing aircraft are for FAC or running generals around, not air to air or air to ground combat. That is Air Force, Navy or Marine.

JR47
March 30, 2009, 04:58 PM
Actually, if you only consider BOATS you may be correct. They still should keep to the ground. If their normal operations mirror what I saw, they won't have those boats for long. I guess that's one way of getting new toys, sink the ones that you have.

Truthfully, I believe that Homeland Secutiry has enough boats to make the Army look like they are just playing in the bath tub. Neither of them has as many SHIPS as the Navy. Besides, with the acceleration of Small Boat Squadrons, and auxillary craft used for security and life/rescue purposes, I think that the Army still comes up short. Consider that every SHIP has enough life boats for it's crew to evacuate. That's a lot of them for a carrier, or other large SHIP.

Hikingman
March 30, 2009, 08:19 PM
Total in inventory, you got me, however, this inventory listing of types should be nearly current?

The U.S. Army listing of current Army helicopters follows:
AH-1 Cobra
AH-64 Apache
CH-47 Chinook
OH-58A/C Kiowa
OH-58D Kiowa Warrior
RAH-66 Comanche
UH-1H Huey (Iroquois)
UH-60A/L Black Hawk

Airplanes: The Army does operate approximately 450 airplanes. In the Army, the term “fixed wing” aircraft is used to refer to airplanes (as opposed to “rotary wing” a.k.a. helicopters). The fixed wing aircraft are employed in a variety of support roles. With few exceptions these are non-combat civil aircraft, generally maintained by contractors. This paragraph is the only reference in this summary to the Army fixed wing fleet.

The US Air Force has over 5778 aircraft commissioned as of 2004, if Wiki is accurate on this.

Here's the USAF current inventory:

A-10/OA-10 Thunderbolt II
C-5A/B Galaxy
MC-130P Combat Shadow
AC-130H/U Gunship
C-9A/C Nightingale
MH-53J/M Pave Low
B-1B Lancer
E-3 Sentry (AWACS)
OC-135B Open Skies
B-2 Spirit
E-4B
T-1A Jayhawk
B-52 Stratofortress
F-117A Nighthawk
T-37 Tweet
C-130 Hercules
F-15 Eagle
T-38 Talon
C-141B Starlifter
F-16 Fighting Falcon
T-43A
C-17 Globemaster III
KC-10A Extender
U-2R/U-2S
C-21A
KC-135 Stratotanker
VC-25A -- Air Force One
C-22B
MC-130E/H Combat Talon I/II
WC-130 Hercules

Interesting USAF site:
http://www2.hickam.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-070507-110.pdf

chuckusaret
March 30, 2009, 11:42 PM
Check this site, it shows the Army aviation units, this will give you an idea of the number of helicopters.

http://www.globemaster.de/armylinks.html

bernie
March 30, 2009, 11:46 PM
The sergeant major in "The Unit" carries what appears to be a 1911. And we all know that show is true!

ACBMWM3
March 31, 2009, 01:04 AM
I was not In SOCOM, I was in the MC but, most SOCOM units do get a budget to purchase what they want.
Even my unit got a budget to purchase new rifles we wanted.
(We chose the HK416, then they stopped making them so we chose LWRC's) Anyway. They can pretty much choose what they want.
Sig's were popular, as well as USP's, not MK23's though. I don't think I ever saw a Glock, I did see a few Beretta 96's however.

Dan Crocker
March 31, 2009, 03:15 PM
The sergeant major in "The Unit" carries what appears to be a 1911. And we all know that show is true!
It's the most truest show I've ever seen. After 24, that is. ;-)

rtn
March 31, 2009, 06:04 PM
My brother was in the 82nd Airborne, stationed at Ft. Bragg before deploying to Iraq in 2003.

A couple of his friends at Bragg were Delta operators. Both carried Kimber Series 70 1911s.

XUSMICO
July 9, 2010, 10:45 PM
The ammo was Winchester Silvertip. One M9 did fx when TZZ ammo was used. More than one gun fx before a DON (CNWS) message had all silvertip and TZZ use stopped. "You are not a SEAL until you have eaten Italian steel" If the NATO spec. ammo was NOT the main problem, the "frame & slide mods" would not have been made. I have shot 1000's of +p+ 9mm from my 1990 SIG 226 and a G17 with no problems.

philip964
July 9, 2010, 10:55 PM
yeah but what was in the briefcase of pistols that went missing at the airport from the guards of the Prime Minister of Israel earlier this week?

killchain
July 9, 2010, 11:50 PM
My unit was issued M9's, Colt M4's, and M249's and M240B's.

The SF guys we were attached to were issued the same stuff... except they got a GAU19 in the back of an unarmored humvee, and got to wear baseball caps.

And one more than one occasion the good old ground pounders (like me) had to come and extract them because they bungled something.

Don't get me wrong, love the guys. But they pissed everyone off wherever they did an op. Hahaha.

jaysouth
July 10, 2010, 12:42 AM
Errornet = BS at the speed of light.

Nine Lives
July 10, 2010, 02:05 AM
I'm in Afghanistan right now and most of the guys walking around in civilians carrying M9's are MI, CI or whatever other military MOS's. There are a lot of federal agents around carrying glocks/sigs but I've seen a few contractors and SF carrying sigs/hk's/glocks/M9's. A lot of AK's on those guy's shoulders as well.

Being a lowly specialist all I've got is my M9 and M16A2 :/

Pizzagunner
July 10, 2010, 01:42 PM
The ammo was Winchester Silvertip. One M9 did fx when TZZ ammo was used. More than one gun fx before a DON (CNWS) message had all silvertip and TZZ use stopped. "You are not a SEAL until you have eaten Italian steel" If the NATO spec. ammo was NOT the main problem, the "frame & slide mods" would not have been made. I have shot 1000's of +p+ 9mm from my 1990 SIG 226 and a G17 with no problems.

It is so irritating when something so simple to look up and get right is not gotten right by the lazy or by those with an agenda for Brand X.

Between the SEALS and the army, there were a total of 14 slide cracks found in early production run Beretta M9 pistols that were at that time "92F" models, 11 in lab testing and three in the field with the SEALS. Before the pistols were being produced entirely in Accokeek Maryland, Beretta S.p.A. was producing the frames in the USA and using a mix of Italian steel produced slides and contract overrun slides made for France from French produced steel, where the 92G had recently won the national police contract and soon were to begin to be licensed built by MAS at St. Etienne. The French had included the rare earth element tellurium as a hardener and sulphate control in their steel mix. It turned out to be a bad choice.

Initially Beretta blamed the slide failures on the use of "overpressure" ammunition. It turns out that later metallurgical analysis of the fractured slides revealed that the slides were all overruns produced from the French steel. The tellurium had made the steel unpredictably brittle to the point that Picatinny fired a suspect M9 to 6k rounds, magnafluxed it and found no fractures, and then the slide catastrophically failed at round 6007. So the problem was rapidly identified and corrected.

However, the events had unintentionally revealed that the design could be improved in the case of a catastrophic slide failure. The end result was a slide cut on the underside of the left side of the slide that slots into an oversized disc on the hammer pivot pin. This modification retains the rear of the slide in the event of catastrophic separation, a modification that has since not been tested by any subsequent slide failures in the field, only during design with the suspect slides. The civilian Beretta model went from the 92F designation to the 92FS as a result of the modification. The French refit their pistols in 2002 after suffering slide cracks in their domestic version.

http://www.cybershooters.org/dgca/beretta_92fs.htm

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA420011

Owen
July 10, 2010, 02:01 PM
there have been some subsequent slide failures, but these are generally on guns that are well past their service life....50k rounds and up.

otcconan
July 10, 2010, 02:31 PM
Let's clarify that. The Army may have more total aircraft than the Air Force, (not sure about that though) but the only reason is their large number of Rotorcraft. The Air Force has far more fixed wing aircraft than the Army. Most of the Army's fixed wing aircraft are for FAC or running generals around, not air to air or air to ground combat. That is Air Force, Navy or Marine.

Yep, there was a big fight in the '60's about this very issue. The Air Force felt that the Army was making their mission redundant. I'm pretty sure that most of the fixed-wing aircraft in the Army's inventory was transferred either to the Air Force or to the Marines.

This is why, when the Air Force considered phasing the A-10 out, they offered their inventory to the Marines and not the Army.

otcconan
July 10, 2010, 02:33 PM
Actually, if you only consider BOATS you may be correct. They still should keep to the ground. If their normal operations mirror what I saw, they won't have those boats for long. I guess that's one way of getting new toys, sink the ones that you have.

Truthfully, I believe that Homeland Secutiry has enough boats to make the Army look like they are just playing in the bath tub. Neither of them has as many SHIPS as the Navy. Besides, with the acceleration of Small Boat Squadrons, and auxillary craft used for security and life/rescue purposes, I think that the Army still comes up short. Consider that every SHIP has enough life boats for it's crew to evacuate. That's a lot of them for a carrier, or other large SHIP.

I'm pretty sure if you're talking BOATS, the Coast Guard has more than both of them.

Owen
July 10, 2010, 02:45 PM
Coast Guard is part of Homeland Security now...

Pizzagunner
July 10, 2010, 03:14 PM
there have been some subsequent slide failures, but these are generally on guns that are well past their service life....50k rounds and up.
The point I was making is that the "flying slide" retainer has no documented real world saves that one can point to. It seems that M9 slides no longer catastrophically fail, and instead give warning signs like progressive cracking, just like every other auto pistol slide out there does at the end of its service life.

The original problem was entirely metallurgical.

Owen
July 10, 2010, 03:32 PM
The point I was making is that the "flying slide" retainer has no documented real world saves that one can point to. It seems that M9 slides no longer catastrophically fail, and instead give warning signs like progressive cracking, just like every other auto pistol slide out there does at the end of its service life.

The original problem was entirely metallurgical.

Roger that.

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