[misterwhipple]

Leaving aside certain model-specific and religious issues, I'd like to spark discussion of the subjective issues surrounding the optional thumb safety on my new wishlist item.

I want to get an XD 45, and I've decided to go for either the 4-inch Service or 5-inch Tactical. I'd kinda like the flexibility of one of the Compact models in the same caliber and barrel, but the deciding factor is the new thumb safety on the Service and Tactical models.

For those unfamiliar with the Springfield XD's, until now they've had no manual safety at all. They rely on a trigger safety similar to that used by Glock, a grip safety like the 1911, and a firing-pin block operated by the other two. The addition of a thumb safety on two of the 2008 45 ACP models has fueled some animated discussion among XD enthusiasts, with many asserting it's unnecessary, just something else to break, or even potentially dangerous in a survival situation.

For context: I've had extensive exposure to firearms and firearm safety training, but relatively little practical experience. I've never carried for personal defense before; permit's in the mail, and CCW training's on the near horizon.

Best I can tell, these are the reasons I want the thumb safety. In no particular order:


Potential Legal Liability

Should I ever find myself in a defense situation, I gather that an unpleasant legal aftermath is likely. The presence of a thumb safety leaves one less loose thread for an ignorant prosecutor or greedy/mendacious plaintiff's attorney to grab ahold of.


Retention-Failure Scenario

Should a predator ever take my weapon from me, there's some small hope that ignorance will prevent his using it against me, or at least delay him while I draw my backup/run for cover/kiss my ass goodbye.


Personal Comfort

When I first got my previous XD, the absence of a manual safety made me feel nervous, even though I chose the XD in part because of the design of its safeties. Some of that is surely due to my lack of experience, but some may just be a matter of familiarity. Every other auto-loader I've ever fired had a manual safety.


Sleepytime Safety

I want to keep a weapon ready to hand at night, but I know what a zombie I can be when I wake up. I reckon if I am awake enough to operate the safety, I'll be awake enough to avoid an ND.

(Although, now that I'm thinking this out loud, I suppose I could accomplish the same thing by leaving the slide open over a loaded magazine.)



Any thoughts?

[brentfoto]

Yeah, 'mental masturbation'. You worry too much - about nothing.

[wickedsprint]

I'd personally rather not have a safety.

1. A stretch, if the gun is un modified, a non issue, it's a police duty gun and they have much more liability worries than us since the city has big coffers and will def be sued.

2. You should have shot him well before this point, get a level III holster, essentially impossible to yank the gun unless it is manipulated the right way, easy for the holder due to where the hand falls, next to impossible for the perp.

3. Get over it :) Revolvers don't have safeties.

4. Keep it in a holster on the nightstand, 4 is my biggest fear as well, so I use a pump shotgun.

[Billy Shears]

If it's that important to you to have a safety on your .45, get a 1911.

[Hoppy590]

i like grip/manual safetys as a precaution against something getting in the trigger guard.

[10-Ring]

The only thumb safety I use is the one on my 1911s -- otherwise, I don't use'm. They just get in the way

[dave from mesa]

Pretty sure the gun won't go off if you're finger is off the trigger. On a 1911 once the safety is off the only thing keeping it from firing is not touching the trigger so do you really need two more?

[TimboKhan]

Gentlemen, may I remind you that this is the high road? Telling the guy he is worrying about nothing and leaving it at that isn't discussing the issue. The guy has some legitmate desires/concerns for why he wants a thumb safety. Like some of you, I don't worry about it too much, but I will tell you that both the 1911 and the Taurus PT99 that are both locked and loaded in my house as I type this have thumb safeties, and I am glad they do. I can also say that the three revolvers scattered around that are loaded don't, and I don't worry about that either.

Look, Springfield didn't introduce that safety because no one wanted it, and people don't buy Glock thumb safeties because they have nothing better to spend their money on. I personally feel that one just adapts to the platform, but there are plenty of people out there uncomfortable with the idea of not having a thumb safety on an auto.

[Rob G]

I normally only use the thumb safety on my 1911s for obvious reasons. My DA/SA guns are always left with the safety off. That having been said I like the idea of having a thumb safety on every gun I own. Do I need one? Not always. But I figure it's better to have one you don't use than not have one and wish you did.

If you're more comfortable with the idea of having one on your XD then buy the model that has it. It can't hurt.

[Jimmy Dean]

I get picked on by some of my buds because I keep the safety on on my Taurus Mill Pro.

"This is my safety." is what they always say while waggling their fingers

Personally, I prefer to have it, would the non-existence of one keep me from buying a gun I ot herwise enjoy firing? No.

But, I do prefer to have it, and I use it, the safety is placed correctly on my gun so that after having practiced it, flipping it off while the gun is still coming up from the draw does not slow down the draw at all and has become second nature.

[TAB]

I agree, I like the idea of having an thumb safety. That has always been my main complaint with striker fired weapons.

As far as, keep your finger off the trigger guys... there have been lots and lots of ADs envoling something getting in the triger guard.

[Whirlwind06]

The only thumb safeties I have liked are on the 1911 and the HI-power.

On the striker fired pistols I have handled, they seem like after-thoughts with these streamlined low drag little nubs that are hard to make ready. And in my experience with the few I have handled (Taurus 24/7 and Ruger SR9) I had to use my weak hand to reengage the safety.

When they start making manual safeties that I can rest my thumb on like a 1911 I may be interested.

[Ske1etor]

I actually look for a manual safety when considering a firearm. I am so used to using one that purchasing a new firearm with a manual safety leads to me sitting on the couch watching TV flipping the safety off and on over and over again. I do this until it is second nature and forget about it.

I don't think that lack of a manual safety would keep me from purchasing a firearm but it would cause me to build trust for the firearm before carrying it. Case in point, I want an M&P in .40S&W. S&W currently only offers the thumb safety on the .45ACP offering (Unless I am mistaken). Therefore I will wait until they add one to the .40 line before I purchase. If they decide that it will not be an addition in the future I will most likely still purchase the .40 but I would rather the safety.

[another okie]

Every feature on a gun is a compromise and has its good and bad sides. If you want a thumb safety, more power to you. You are not alone. Several older guys I know are uncomfortable with Glocks and other modern pistols with no manual safeties.

Make sure you practice with it a lot!

There are smaller guns with thumb safeties - Makarovs, older Berettas, and I guess Taurus makes some small ones. Sig also has some models where the lever is a safety as well as a decocker.

[Baneblade]

I think there is nothing wrong with wanting a firearm that is "safe." If my agency switched to a firearm with an external thumb safety, no problem. We would just train with that system.

If you like the idea, go for it. I believe it is a training issue. None of the AD's my agency has had would have been prevented by a thumb safety.

[Flopsy]

I am soooooooo tired of hearing people just say "just keep your finger off the trigger."

Of course, constant vigilance must be your mantra. But anybody who thinks it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to make a mistake is kidding themself, and that mindset is even potentially dangerous.

If you don't like a manual safety, that's a fine decision and I understand your reasons - they're valid. But the "just keep your booger hook off the bang switch" stuff as an argument against the extra margin of protection against error, I think we really need to think that old saying through.

I'm sure I'll get counter-flamed by saying "well if you think you're going to make a mistake you shouldn't be handling firearms." Bull, I already said constant vigilance has to be your mantra, your life, your always focus. But seriously, it's not impossible for you or anyone else to make a mistake. You just gotta live in the real world and be realistic about the possibility, however incredibly tiny that chance of a mistake is. If the chance of me making a mistake is 0.000000000000001%, I still recognize that a manual safety makes that chance 0.00000000000000000000000000001%.

[fogdor]

Safety or no? I think it's more important that you pick a single manual-of-arms that makes sense to you and stick to it.

[Snowdog]

just keep your booger hook off the bang switch

This might very well be the most humorous thing I've heard for weeks. I do believe I will use this statement whenever applicable.

As for the thumb safety, I prefer them. If your handgun doesn't have one and you'd like it to, you're uncomfortable. If your handgun has one and you don't like 'em, don't engage it and we're all winners basking in warm, dazzling happiness.

However, I'm a 1911 guy and my opinions are obviously influenced. My carry K9 is without any manual safety and I'm fine with it; I prefer a thumb safety but can live without.

[Spenser]

This is the great thing about a market economy that has literally hundreds of options for the consumer.

I like Dr. Pepper. Others like Coke. Still others, for some ungodly reason, like Pepsi. Yet others prefer root beer. The nice thing is that we don't all have to drink Pepsi.

Carry what you like, and what makes you comfortable. Everyone else's opinion is just that: opinion.

I like safeties, myself. I've got guns with 'em and without 'em. I prefer them, however.

[ZeSpectre]

Do what feels right for you.
I have some guns with "safeties", most do not. In my case nothing I carry has a safety simply because I started with wheelguns and had DA/SA or SAO while on duty and, to be blunt, it's just way too ingrained for me to consider changing at this point.

[misterwhipple]

Safety or no? I think it's more important that you pick a single manual-of-arms that makes sense to you and stick to it. (FOGDOR)

I'm not sure what you mean; could you please elaborate?

[skinewmexico]

I don't know what to say. If I say what I think, I'll get accused of not being "High Road". But there are plenty of guns out there with thumb safeties. Plenty. My whole problem with the thumb safety on the XD is, when is enough enough? If two safeties aren't enough, are three? Why not 4? Add a hammer you have to cock too. Where do you stop? It's an advancement in modern weapons, and we want to turn it back into a 1911.

It's not a problem to be solved with the XD, it's a change needed in owner attitude, or model purchased. Take your XD, shoot IDPA for a few months, and I'm sure you'll be fine without a thumb safety.

[gc70]

I would prefer the option of a thumb safety on all of my guns, just to be able to have a more consistent manual of arms.

My favorite type of gun is the 1911 and I have trained to be proficient with a thumb safety. My Sigs do not have thumb safeties; the thumb of my shooting hand has no convenient place to rest except on the slide release (unthoughtfully placed where a thumb safety should be).

[ZeSpectre]

Manual of Arms...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manual_of_arms

In essence what it means is the procedures you have to go through to operate a firearm. Having a consistent one means that the guns you use are all the same. It's basically what I was saying in my earlier post, that I keep the same functional style for my carry weapons because under stress I don't have to worry about different styles of gun because all of my carry guns function the same.

Having said all of that I really don't think the XD needs a thumb safety, the design is pretty smart.

[Walkalong]

I kind of like the idea of the safety on the XD, although I have a XD SC .40 without it and am happy and content. I have shot 1911's so much for so long, it would be second nature to me. I have not seen or held one, except for pics, and have not made up my mind about it for sure, but I think I may like it. I certainly wouldn't mind it.

[-v-]

My $0.02 cents on the issue is this:

On spring guns and SA guns I like a safety. It gives me piece of mind with the light and short trigger pulls that these firearms exhibit. I always have the fear that something will catch on the trigger, and before I realize it, the firearm will go bang into my leg. Plus, most SA guns had an easy flip-down safety, that could be disengaged quite easily while drawing the weapon, and if you're in a position to holster it, the threat has passed and you can take the time to use your off-hand to re-engage it.

On DA/SA or DAO firearms with a long trigger pull I am ok without having a safety. In my mind both the weight of the trigger and the length of the pull both seem as a good deterrent to a AD/ND as you'll notice that something is dragging the trigger before the device goes "Bang!"

[Marshall]

They rely on a trigger safety similar to that used by Glock, a grip safety like the 1911, and a firing-pin block operated by the other two.

At some point, enough is enough. I mean, really now. No pully on the boom switch and no go bang bang anyway. ;) The way the whole gun operates is one of the most appealing things about it. Chamber a round, have a full mag and the gun is reay to shoot without having to jack with anything. Simplicity is a virtue with this gun. With night sights this is probably one of the best nightstand semi-auto's there is for this reason alone. Simplicity of a revolver with the advantages of an autoloader. Keep the thumb saftey off this gun.

[Old Dog]

It is surely only coincidence that the highest percentages of negligent discharges in the hands of the largest segment of gun-packing persons -- law enforcement (ostensibly with a higher level of training also) -- occur with Glock pistols.

Swiping off a frame-mounted thumb safety causes no appreciable time delay in the semi-auto pistol manual of arms. As we live in a litigious, politically polarized culture, with attorneys and anti-gun folk who feign to understand the issue of manual safeties on firearms, opting to own firearms with safeties is an exercise in pragmatism. A non-issue for many of us, why judge someone for one's preference for or against manual safeties?

[BlindJustice]

different strokes for different folks.

I have a 1911 full size in .45 ACP. I've been shopping for a
9MM and the CZ75B will be my next handgun acquisition. The
reason for 9MM? Economy at the range WHy the CZ75B
* All steel construction, & similiar trigger design with a rep
for reliability and accuracy with the slide inside the frame.
* DA -OR- SA Cocked & Locked pretty much the same Manual
of arms or DA for the first shot with the thumb safety off since
it is not operable withthe Hammer down. If the weapon is drawn
and fired in the field, when a pause comes just pUt the thumb safety
on and reholster or carry at port arms.

[harbingerm]

Geez, these guns in proper working order are NOT just going to "go off". :rolleyes:

Plus, consider what's already been mentioned about people training a ton and getting "used" to flipping the safety off. Well, what do you think is going to happen if/when you NEED that gun? It will be in your hand, safety off, and you probably wouldn't even realize it because it's muscle memory and ingrained at that point. Same thing if you grabbed it in sleep/zombie mode... In this case, safety/no safety...doesn't matter. There may be some minute merit that a bad guy who takes the gun away won't know how to manipulate the safety, but I doubt it. People tend to think criminals are idiots and not capable of any sort of higher thought. I'd be willing to bet in a millisecond after pulling the trigger and the gun doesn't fire, they'll be looking right at the left/rear area of the slide and simply snick that safety right off.

[CJ]

Ok, just because it's right for YOU doesn't mean you should force your views on everyone else. I'd have hoped people had learned that from watching the anti approach and trying to force everyone to conform to THEIR views.

Mr. Whipple, go with what YOU feel comfortable with. There isn't a right or wrong here, otherwise you wouldn't have a choice and you'd only have the perfect one available. This doesn't just go for safeties, it goes for holster choices, carry conditions (e.g. one in the chamber or not), and on...or whether you even choose to carry.

I applaud your effort at starting the discussion, but I wish people would address your questions/issues rather than try to force their opinions on you.

As for the 'keep you finger off the trigger' solution, search for a number of situations such as NDs where a piece of clothing got caught in the trigger guard while re-holstering.

I think of a safety as sort of a...well..safety, serving a similar function to a seatbelt. I'm not going to get into a crash to test out my seatbelt, but I'll be happy if it saves me in a bad situation. Similarly, I wouldn't test a safety on my gun, but if it prevents a bad situation, great.

[harbingerm]

If you cause a gun to go off when re-holstering and want a mechanical safety to prevent that, you seriously need more practice/training. :rolleyes:

[Lonestar49]

Quote: It is surely only coincidence that the highest percentages of negligent discharges in the hands of the largest segment of gun-packing persons -- law enforcement (ostensibly with a higher level of training also) -- occur with Glock pistols.

Swiping off a frame-mounted thumb safety causes no appreciable time delay in the semi-auto pistol manual of arms. As we live in a litigious, politically polarized culture, with attorneys and anti-gun folk who feign to understand the issue of manual safeties on firearms, opting to own firearms with safeties is an exercise in pragmatism. A non-issue for many of us, why judge someone for one's preference for or against manual safeties?
-------------------
...

+1 for Old Dog


Wuff Wuff.. :) (interpretation: here - here )


Ls

[searcher451]

My daily carry gun is a Walther PPK/S. I carry it for a lot of reasons: It conceals well and readily, I am comfortable with it from years of use, I am accurate with it, and it has a thumb safety on it. Call me old-fashioned, but I appreciate the added safety factor.

[harbingerm]

That's because the LEOs lacked the PROPER training and practice with Glocks. Follow the four rules and you'll NEVER have an ND. Simple enough?

Also, don't ever assume that a LEO whose department makes him qual once or twice a year is "highly trained". I know I shoot a LOT more than most LEOs, including the ones in my family of which I have first hand knowledge of their "high quality training". Real whiz bang shots at the range, too... :rolleyes:

Having a manual safety to prevent NDs is like having safety lever on a folding knife to prevent it from "accidentally" opening. Hey, it juuuust might prevent an accident, right? The point isn't to add mechanical "things" for safety. The point is to learn to operate your instrument of choice PROPERLY! Simply put, don't have "accidents"!

[CJ]

Gee harbingerm, I admire how perfect and perfectly trained people are in your world! How there are never extenuating circumstances! If people were taught to drive properly, we wouldn't need seatbelts either! (edit to note: sorry, seatbelts are a bad analogy here...we don't NEED safeties, but they're not the pariah that so many make them out to be...I just can't come up with a better one at the moment).

And by the way, the 4 rules do NOT prevent NDs. They keep you, and everyone around you safe, in the event of an ND.

1) All guns are always loaded!
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy!
3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target!1
4) Always be sure of your target!

The case of a jacket tie getting caught inside the trigger guard is not prevented by any of these.

[harbingerm]

My daily carry gun is a Walther PPK/S. I carry it for a lot of reasons: It conceals well and readily, I am comfortable with it from years of use, I am accurate with it, and it has a thumb safety on it. Call me old-fashioned, but I appreciate the added safety factor.

I love my PPK/s, too, but that god awful long and HARD double action trigger on the first shot is more than safety enough for me! Many revolvers (no mechanical safeties at all) have much lighter and smoother triggers. Never hear of them "just going off".

[harbingerm]

And by the way, the 4 rules do NOT prevent NDs. They keep you, and everyone around you safe, in the event of an ND.

1) All guns are always loaded!
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy!
3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target!1
4) Always be sure of your target!

Um, run that by me again, CJ, will ya? Just exactly HOW following all four rules will still NOT prevent NDs?

As for the "jacket tie" thing, hey, note to self... How about doing a proper clothing sweep and NOT allow something to get in the trigger guard, mmmmK? It takes one second to look down and visually verify the holster is clear. Please spare me any LEO, military, mall ninja, etc scenarios you were in and had exactly two milliseconds and didn't have the time to visually verify. Sure, if you had to pull the gun, you might be shaken up, but when it's time to re-holster, the threat is OVER and speed is NOT of the necessity at that point. Simply following rule #1 and ALWAYS being aware of it, you won't let that trigger get pulled for ANY reason.

[CJ]

Um, run that by me again, CJ, will ya? Just exactly HOW following all four rules will still NOT prevent NDs?

All righty, let's use the incident I mentioned where an officer experience a ND while holstering a pistol, resulting from a jacket pull being inside the trigger guard while re-holstering.

1) All guns are always loaded! Yep, it was loaded, he knew that which was, in fact, why he had it out in the first place.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy! Lucky guy, it was pointed at the ground and not at himself or anyone else.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target! Yeppers, no finger on the trigger!
4) Always be sure of your target! I think this is more covered by #1 in this case, but fortunately the ground made an excellent backstop.

So, all rules followed still resulting in an ND, but BECAUSE the rules were followed, no one was injured.

[harbingerm]

Well, I guess ya just can't fix stupid, then... Your officer was completely unaware of what was happening with his Glock. Had he treated the gun as if it were ALWAYS loaded, he'd have a little more respect for it and situational awareness concerning handling a gun out of his direct line of vision.

Ya wanna know what's really strange? I've carried Glocks for darn near 15 years and holster/re-holster on virtually a daily basis and have NEVER come close to having an ND for any reason. And, I'm just a little ol' "regular" civilian with a couple of courses under my belt. Heck, according to you with my vastly inferior non-LEO training, the floors in my house should look like Swiss cheese by now. I live in a very cold, snowy climate, too and I've never even had any tactical training in my high usage of jacket to gun carry ratio, either. :rolleyes:

[CJ]

As for the "jacket tie" thing, hey, note to self... How about doing a proper clothing sweep and NOT allow something to get in the trigger guard, mmmmK? It takes one second to look down and visually verify the holster is clear.

Agreed. This would be the best solution, and anyone who discovered this situation and was saved by a safety should need a change of underwear, a couple prayers of thanks, and a large amount of chastisement to never make such a mistake again.

As for your the mall ninja accusation (IMHO, you're sounding more mall ninja than me, claiming perfect training and performance every time is possible...just multiply the number of firearms by some miniscule chance of an incident, and you get a few each year), do a search for "Odessa Texas Police Department glock draw string" for the incident and some photos. And sorry, I did screw up, he DID manage to hit himself.

And I'm not claiming it's GOING to happen to you! I hope it never does to anyone...but experience simply shows that it does happen, and I'm ONLY saying that, if you want a safety on your gun, go for it. If not, don't! Both are safe with proper handling, but don't RELY on a safety.

[harbingerm]

CJ, you make some very valid points, many I agree with. I like the fact that you realize a manual safety is not NEEDED and shouldn't be relied upon. Sorry if I directed my "rant" towards you. Rather, it should be against the people (here and otherwise) who feel they cannot own a semi-auto without a thumb safety. You mentioned driving before and it's a semi-valid argument. I'm not a mall ninja or Dale Jr, but I've been driving for a LONG time and have never caused an accident with no "professional" training beyond driver's ed in high school and a motorcycle safety class. People just need to be more cautious about how they approach deadly items which can place them in deadly situations. Does that mean I'll never be involved in a car or shooting accident? Nope, not one iota because I cannot control other people's stupidity/negligence. I've had exactly two car accidents, both rear enders and I was completely stopped so it's not like I slammed on my brakes or anything...once to make a left turn with blinker on and once at a red light. Even following all the rules, they cannot prevent me from being inadvertently shot by another's negligence. Hmmm...maybe those types DO need a thumb safety! Who knows, maybe I just pay more attention to things because even though I don't really fly much anymore, I'm still a rated helicopter and airplane pilot and have been a flight instructor. REALLY gotta pay attention there! :what:

[CJ]

I think we're on the same page!

One's not better than the other, and both can be safe...but a safety still can't cure stupid. :neener:

[harbingerm]

Best post in this thread! :D

[misterwhipple]

E-e-xcellent! (rubs hands together :evil:)

Thanks, folks; this definitely helps.

[harbingerm]

Um, you're welcome Mr. Burns, sir... :neener: