[saturno_v]

Yesterday at the range my Witness 10 mm attracted quite some attention, especially from one Bren Ten lover.
I let couple of guys shoot her and they enjoyed it a lot.
Too bad I have to send it back to EAA to fix my jam-o-matic problem (almost surely magazine related)

Do you think the Witness is in practice the real heir of the "mythical" and rare Bren Ten??

The guns are strikingly similar in appearance and are both based on a beefed up CZ-75 design.

Any opinion or comment in this??

[loop]

Fix your gun.

Ain't that hard. It's either polish or springs.

In the time I've been watching your posts re: 10mm Witness; I've bought, tuned and sold a half dozen guns.

Fix the doggone thing. It isn't that hard.

It ain't a Bren. It ain't supposed to be.

I recall your posting about your "jam-o-matic" from before I started my last two projects. Both of those "project" guns are now down to "how do I want to refinish them."

Reliability is 100 percent. Accuracy is within one inch at 10 yards standing freestyle.

I recall the first time I read your posts about this gun. Since then I've bought two "project guns." One is down to ordering new sights and refinishing the slide. The other is down to replacing the sear and sights.

Match your ammo to your gun and then make your gun work.

If your jamming problem is mag-related then fix it. Buy a factory tube, a bag of spare followers and some springs. Take a pair of needle-nosed pliers and grind them flat. Get a micrometer and you can fix your problems in a half-hour.

If it is all too much for you, offer the gun up for sale. I'll take it. I've got more than 500 rounds of 10mm brass and nothing to put it in. I have even more than 500 rounds of bullets and just a pair of useless dies setting around.

If all I had to worry about was one gun that jamming on me I'd be in hog heaven.

I'll open the bidding at $300.

Get over it, move on. If you want to sell it, PM me. I'll probably give you at least what you paid.

Back on topic. I don't want a Bren 10. Has too many weak points -Tanfoglio, another story. I can stack 21 rounds of 10mm in one mag and shoot POA to 21 yards...

Fix your gun or sell it.

[atblis]

If you think it's mag related, try another mag first. Chances are you'll spend more than a new mag costs shipping it to EAA, and they won't do anything to it anyways. They'll probably send it back and just blame the ammo.

The Bren Ten never got off the ground. The Witness is more or less what the Bren was supposed to be. So yes, "heir" I suppose.

$300 is overpaying for a used Witness.

[sqlbullet]

There are strong arguments either way. I have to admit, one of the things that attracted me to my Witness Match was it's resemblance to the "Miami Vice" Bren Ten.

And while $300 may be overpaying by some standards, it seems from a quick look at gb and ga to be a fair market start point.

My standard Witness was had jam issues as well. I gave it a fluff and buff (feed ramp, plunger, sear), changed recoil springs (first to a #20 then a #22), and changed magazine springs (+15%). Last outing I had no failures.

One additional note...The magazines like to be stored topped off. I have issues in the Witness (not the Match) with magazines stored empty.

[R&J]

"I have issues in the Witness (not the Match) with magazines stored empty."

*****

I've often wondered about this...

The engineering types tell me that it's the cycles of compression and expansion that wear out a spring, not the steady state of being compressed or expanded. So, whatever floats your boat.

I've always loaded new magazines, and kept them that way for a few months, except the 10 mm ones, for the conversion project.

All three of my Glocks are 100% reliable, except the G21 in 10 mm mode, which is maybe 95% reliable, with occasional failures to feed. Could this be the fix?

What do you think?

--Ray

[joffe]

Maybe.. (http://vltor.wordpress.com/) Or maybe it used to be. ;)

[saturno_v]

Hey guys

Maybe there is a misunderstanding here..:eek::eek:
I never had any intention of selling my beautiful Witness..I'm sure I will fix the jamming problem easily...I will try to store the magazine topped off for couple of weeks and see what happen....

I got mine brand new in December (wife Christmas present) from a gun shop for $379 + tax (8.8 % in WA)

I could not be more happy with it, I love the lookand the ergonomics..
Someone know how difficult is to upgrade the safety to ambidx??? Is something I can do myself without the gunsmith???

Thanks.

[Vitamin G]

If its a 10rd magazine, THATS the problem.

Friend has a witness. Jams on the 9th round of the 10rd mag, every single time. 15rd mags = flawless.

[saturno_v]

No I have the newer 15 rounds magazine with red follower, in theory the one that is supposed to be "good".....
Tonight I loaded it with 14 rounds and I will leave it this way for one week as someone suggested, and see if things improve....

[loop]

R&J,

I had issues with failure to feed with a Glock 21. I upped the recoil spring by two pounds (don't recall factory weight offhand) and replaced mag springs with Wolff +10 percent. If you are a reloader and the reloads are the issue, add to the above a factory crimp die from Lee. It resizes the round after it is loaded and greatly improves feeding.

It is probably a spring issue. Wolff offers a tune-up kit that may take care of your issues.

[loop]

Saturno,

I apologize if I was harsh. I get that way sometimes. Guess I've been at this too long.

If you want to PM me the specifics of your jams I'll be happy to make a suggestion or two.

Jams in autos come from very few sources. There are the ones that are inherent to the gun, but most (about 95 percent) are easily cured.

Think in terms of timing. The slide has so much time spent in recoil. The barrel drops out of battery for so long. After that the slide must pick up the next round, force it up the feed ramp and into the chamber.

A mag problem is indicated if the next round is stuck on the feed ramp or stuck pointing up at the top of the chamber.

If it is stuck on the feed ramp it is either a rough ramp that needs polishing or a mag issue.

If it is stuck pointing up at the top of the chamber it is probably mag lips that are too far apart.

Jamming on ejection is most likely timing. Sometimes a heavier mag spring will take care of it. It will slow down the slide during recoil.

If jamming on ejection is the problem then you must determine whether things are happening too quickly or too slowly and whether sufficient force is being delivered to seat the next round.

Here is where I would start: Brass should pile up about six feet from where I stand when firing. Farther away requires a weaker spring. Closer requires a stronger spring.

Once I have that adjustment taken care of I would consider my mag spring. If the failure occurs because the brass is caught in the action, I'd look to the mag spring. It is not pushing the next round up quickly enough to put it into proper position.
This goes back to the recoil spring. The Wolff tune-up kit is about $25. A lot less than a smith or even shipping to the maker.

There are only about a half-dozen causes for failure to feed or failure to extract. Once you have the specifics there are only two or three reasons issues will continue. Simple math means there may be about 18 issues to consider.

Start at the top of the list and you're down to about eight or 10 issues. Next step cuts it in half again. For the most part they are cheap and for the most part relatively easy.

Lastly, regardless of warranty, the first thing I do with any auto is polish the feed ramp and chamber. I do this routinely on new or used guns.

One of my biggest challenges was a Para I bought late last year and all it really took to make it 100 percent reliable was a spring set and a little ramp and chamber polish. It is now out getting custom work done.

If I may, don't look for a cheap way to achieve your goals, look for the right way - it wil be the cheap way anyway.

Again, I apologize if I went over the top. It just seems really simple to me and it always works.

In 50 years of fooling with autos, if polishing machine marks doesn't cure it - it's springs.

[atblis]

The engineering types tell me that it's the cycles of compression and expansion that wear out a spring, not the steady state of being compressed or expanded. So, whatever floats your boat.
An engineer is assuming that it's a properly engineered spring operating inside of it's specified range. This includes being made out of the correct material.

[Onmilo]

I blew up my 10mm Witness, My bad, too experimental with my reloading.
+1 on the 10 round magazines causing problems.
My gun came with a ten rounder, that magazine never did work right.
It would stick, not lock the slide back, cartridges would misfeed, on and on.
The 15 shot magazines, while a bear to load, functioned without any problems.

[Peter M. Eick]

You must have worked hard to blow up a 10mm witness. I know I tried hard and made some nuclear loads, but never KB it.

The witness is a darn tough gun and it will take a lot.

[sqlbullet]

I have not installed an ambi safety in mine, but I have removed/re-installed the safety from both my standard and Match. I can't imagine putting a different one in would be very hard.

The process is this:

Unload. Check again :)
Field strip the weapon.
Lower the hammer.
With the safety off, use a small screw driver or jeweler's tool to lift the spring arm coming off the sear assembly up and set it in it's take down notch the left.
Push/pull the safety out of the gun. Be aware, the safety is what holds the sear assembly in the gun. Once the safety is removed, the sear assembly will come right out too.

There are some pictures and good info about detail stripping the gun here (http://www.savvysurvivor.com/tanfoglio_witness_gunsmithing.htm).

Also, be aware that once the sear assembly is out of the gun, you have to slightly compress it to get it back into the gun. It is not that hard, but takes a little practice. The reason is to ensure the arm on the sear clears the trigger bar before the assembly can fully seat. It is much harder to do on my Match than on my standard Witness.

[shep854]

Interesting question, since the Bren Ten design drew heavily on the CZ-75. Given the common ancestor, I would call them peers. On the other hand, if Tanfoglio looked at the Bren Ten's shortcomings and addressed them in the Witness 10mm, 'heir' might be appropriate.

[Onmilo]

I will tell you this,
Accurate Arms #5 should never be used to load 10mm
The 10mm is Waaaay harder to blow up than a .40 S&W and a much better and more versatile cartridge but believe you me, it can be made to kaboom.

I will also tell you that I tend to run 10mm loads as they were intended.
180-200 grain heavy jacket bullets @ 1100-1250 fps.

I am debating a 10mm Glock at this time but want a 6" barrel and slide if I go back to the 10mm again.
It is far easier to bring the velocity to the levels I want from the cartridge with this barrel length.
The shorter barrels really push the safe pressure levels to achieve this kind of performance.

[longhorngunman]

Hmmm, Just how fast were you running those 200gr' ers?;) I've flirted with the 1300 mark with some Hornady XTP 200's in my G20. But that's with a 6" barrel that usually adds a good 100ft/sec to any load in the stock barrel. Plus I'd never run a load that hot in the factory "loose" Glock barrel.

[icanthitabarn]

Hey Loop: where was this post years ago ? (many) while I fiddled with my two AMT .22 mags. (constantly). since last trip to range they seem good thou.