[Chugach]

Yesterday, I was shooting my Oly PCR/RRA lower using 30-round mags. Well into the third mag, I heard a very unsatisfying "click" rather than "crack". The bolt had not gone into battery.

I locked the bolt back and was able to shake the unfired round out of the port. Much to my surprise, a spent primer fell out too...

Thinking "fluke", I reinserted the mag and started shooting again. About 5 rounds later, the same thing happened. At that point, I started combing through high grass to find the cartridge cases. I found one of the two without a primer, and was surprised by what I saw on it and about a dozen others still with spent primers intact. There's very clear, shiny ejector marks, and the extractor gouged brass out of the case head. Looking at the cases sideways, you can see that the rims have been bent and distorted on extraction.

I had shot about 60 rounds of PMC and PMP prior to that mag, and those cartridges fired and extracted normally. I've also shot Federal American Eagle. None showed unusual dings or gouges.

All cases showing unusual wear are headstamped W C C on the upper arc and 9 4 on the lower. Primers are sealed with a red lacquer. I couldn't find the original box, so I don't have a lot number.

These are Winchester, correct? Anybody else have a similar experience? What's going on?

[Biff]

From what you describe, you have the classic symptoms of overlaoded ammo. Usually it takes at least 65,000 psi+ to deform brass to the degree that primers fall out. I assume that this was factory ammo, as it still had laquer arouind the primers. Several things may have happened, listed in most likely order:

1. Western Cartridge Company (Winchester) may have produced a bad lot in 1994. The brass may have been produced extra-soft (a problem that match shooters have had frequently with some lots of Federal .223), or a wrong powder or charge volume may have been used.

2. Ammo may have been stored in a way that allowed high temperatures and or vibration to alter the burn characteristics of the powder.

3. Chamber may be oversize-out of spec... Unlikely, as I doubt thaa Oly would produce a chamber as oversize as a standard chamber on a SAW, which does not pop primers.

My advice: Try some brand new ammo and see if there is still a problem. Stay away from Wolf Ammo, as the cases are laquer coated, and after the chamber warms up, the laquer starts coating the chamber. Them, eventually, a round gets "glued" into the chamber, and when it is fired, the extractor rips the rim off and the case stays put.

[Chugach]

Thanks Biff, I stay away from Wolf like the plague.

All ammo was factory. I reload, but pistol/revolver only (so far).

PMP was less than a year old, and PMC was about 2 years old. I haven't done anything to the Winchester ammo after I bought it that I haven't done to all other brands. No temperature or vibration extremes. The Oly chamber seems fine...I see no signs of distress on any other brands of ammo.

By the time I had the second failure-to-feed, I only had one round of the Winchester left. I think I'll pull it apart and see if anything is obvious. I'm also gonna track down the original box...I think I've still got it crammed in a corner somewhere. I keep 'em to help me remember how many rounds I've fired.

Signs sure point to a bad lot of ammo...somewhat disturbing to think of the quality control lapse at the factory if it's true. The disturbing thing is, I could easily have missed the signs if I
a) didn't see the loose spent primer, and
b) didn't scrounge my brass in anticipation of someday reloading .223

I was so focused on the target that I noticed no difference in recoil or report...not sure that I would have if I had been paying attention.

Anybody else had a similar experience with factory ammo?

[Chugach]

Sent an e-mail to Winchester to request lot numbers for any 1994 vintage .223 ammo that they recalled. I'll post the results, if any.

Haven't tracked down the original packaging yet...one more location to look, and I won't get a chance to visit there for another couple of weeks.

Biff, thanks again for the clear reply...

[Biff]

Please check your PM

[gun-fucious]

its also possible that a dirty or poorly finished chamber is hanging onto the brass causing the primer to pop

[Chugach]

Good advice...will strip and check.

[Keith]

There's very clear, shiny ejector marks, and the extractor gouged brass out of the case head. Looking at the cases sideways, you can see that the rims have been bent and distorted on extraction.

I don't think you have a pressure problem... It sounds like something to do with the extraction of the case is warping the heads and that's why the primers are popping out.

Look at the other spent brass and check for flattened or cratered primers. If you don't find that, you (most likely) aren't looking at a pressure problem.

If no pressure signs, I would measure the base of the unfired brass just above the rims to see if it is over-sized, which might create an extraction problem. You can get all the proper specs in any reloading manual.

I would clean and give a light polish to the chamber.

I don't know how to adjust an extractor on a rifle of that type, or how to tell if it needs adjustment or replacement.

Keith

[Chugach]

Keith, good observations, but I think it's more than just an extraction problem. Otherwise, I don't think I'd be seeing very distinct, unusual ejector marks as well.

OTOH, I'll admit that I'm pretty much an AR-15 (and semi-auto centerfire rifles) newbie. I have lots of experience with bolt action centerfires and all types of rimfires.

Sequence of events was this:

Fire 60 rounds of mixed PMC and PMP ammo. Fire 15 rounds Winchester.

Absolutely none of the PMC or PMP spent cartridges show unusual cratering or flattening of the primers, or even distinct extractor and ejector marks. They don't show any sign of bent rims.

Every single one of the Winchester cases show damage as described earlier.

I had no more ammo left after I fired the Winchester, so I have no evidence after the fact.

I'll follow up on your idea of measuring the case diameter. Also going to check OAL. Also hoping to get another set of more experienced eyes here in Anchorage on the cases.

You're not flying in anytime soon, are you? :D :D

Took a look at the chamber last night. Didn't seem overly dirty to me, but again, I'm not real experienced with AR-15s. I've put maybe 100 rounds through it since it was cleaned last. Will clean and inspect closely.

Thanks,

Chugach

[Keith]

If you shot the Winchester last, it may be that the dirt in the chamber built up until the problem manifested at that point. Or it may just be that Winchester brass is slightly thinner or softer than the other brands and so it showed up there and not in the other brass.

And really, if a company like Winchester had a run of overloaded ammo we'd have heard about it.

You don't mention whether the winchester brass had any other signs beyond the blown primers - like being flattened or cratered. The deformed heads (that you describe) is reason enough for the primers to fall out, so I'd look at extraction before blaming the ammo.

I'm not an AR15 guy either, but all semi-auto's have extremely vigorous extraction and any stickiness in the chamber could result in a problem like you're having.

I'm not sure if bad extractor could cause that, but maybe one of our ar15 guys could chime in?

Keith

[Chugach]

Ammo was from 1994. I don't remember recalls from two years ago, much less nine. :)

Nothing was unusual in the Winchester primers from the 13 fired cases.

Seems amazingly coincidental that a dirty chamber would become an issue exactly at the first Winchester round unless something was different with the ammo. Maybe it was a difference in brass, as you pointed out.

I'm also still trying to understand why sticky extraction would cause unusual ejector marks? :scrutiny:

Looking for the AR-15 experts on the forum... :confused:

[gun-fucious]

Olys have a reputation for a "223 match" Chamber that is a bit tighter than the mil spec

the bad lot of Winchester 3131 was 1999 maunfacture
on the AR15 list several folkes reported popped primers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AR15-L

[Keith]

As for the extraction, I'm referring to the gouge you said it made in the case heads.

I didn't realize the ammo was that old. What can happen is that old ammo will sometimes swell a bit if not stored properly. At any rate, I've seen that on old reloads of my own. You'd think the primers would go bad, but they don't always.
I haven't seen this happen to factory ammo - maybe because they are sealed better? I'm sure it can happen to them also, especially over a nine year period, in Alaska... It's too bad you don't have any unfired rounds to measure.
Earlier this summer, I had some two or three year old .308 reloads that I know were fully resized because they were done up for a match rifle belonging to a friend of mine. They were left out in a damp outbuilding where I ran across them this summer. They looked fine so I threw them into my FAL bag, but later found out they wouldn't even chamber in that rifle - and FAL's have a relatively sloppy chamber designed to feed anything.

Keith

[Chugach]

gun-fucious, thanks for the link to Yahoo. Took me a while to get "joined" to the group, but eventually found messages that referenced a similar problem with Winchester ammo from 1999. I need to do more reading there...looks like good info. Message numbers 4817, 4824, 4864, and 4865 were particularly interesting. Didn't have time tonight to search for any more.

Keith, I totally agree that you've gotta watch what your doing when you're storing your ammo. The stuff I was shooting has been well protected, even though it was old. Trouble is, I don't know how it was treated before I bought it. I'm sure I bought it through a large retail store here in Anchorage, but it's been too long for me to remember clearly when I picked it up.

Another THR member has kindly offered to take a look at the cases and make some measurements, so I'm expecting some harder evidence soon.

[uglygun]

There was indeed a run of "bad" Winchester but I forget specifically when it happened, AR15.com forums are down right now due to the NYC power outage(servers are located there) but I know you could find people who'd remember.

I want to say it was around 98-99, right about the time I got my first AR15s. It was likely after your run in with the WCC of 94 though. I think it was the imported IMI contract ammo but I can't remember that for sure either, I ran into the problem running it in my 2 Bushmasters as well as accurized AR15. I just stopped using that ammo after chaulking it up to a bad lot and gave it about a year before I started playin with Winchester again.


Something that is possible, not just the chamber of your Oly but it's throat. It's possible that you are seeing higher pressures not just from the 5.56x45mm loading but from a combination of a tight chamber and short throat. All these things can add up to spitting primers. SAAMI recommends not firing 5.56x45mm from firearms cut/reamed for 223Remington spec'd ammo, some folk follow it religously while others approach it with more of an open minded trial run. Some folks with 223Rem chambered guns get fine reliability when using 5.56spec ammo but others experience problems like you mention.


PMC and PMP are closer to 223Rem spec ammo than they are to 5.56x45mm M193 spec. I've seen a noticable drop in the performance of 55grn PMC over the years, used to be really pretty hot back around 97-98 and then it disappeared for awhile with some stupid import restriction. When the PMC returned it was noticably weaker, then about a year ago I noticed that the stuff coming into the country was noticably different in physical appearance with it's appearance being identical to that of South African ammo as opposed to something like M193 from Lake City.



As for primers popping out, it happens. I've never had a worse experience with ammo in my 3 AR15s and AR10 than with Federal ammo, I downright hate the stuff now and simply won't touch it. I've spat primers out of all 3 of my AR15s and the AR10 while running all possible offerings from Federal from American Eagle to Gold Medal Match.

The WORST is when the primer gets stuck in your barrel extension and the bolt comes forward to crush the primer into the barrel extension, it's a PAIN to get it out of there. Worse than getting a primer under the trigger group which I've also had happen. With out a doubt though the most strange primer ejection I've heard of was one where the primer hopped up right into line with the gas key and actually got shoved down into the gas key as the bolt closed into battery(gas tube shoved in there real good).


It's a good idea to test ammo for reliability if you buy in bulk, the stuff I've got for shooting matches has had 200 or so rounds fired from it's case to test for reliability before stashing it away. Stuff that might prove to be less reliable makes for good range ammo learning to do malfunction drills or just general blasting, especially if you have mild ammo that might be causing short cycles and you quickly learn to not rely so much on the bolt catch for last round fired.

[Chugach]

uglygun, how does that old joke go?

"Doc, it hurts when I do this!"

"Well, then, don't do that!"

No more WCC 94 for me...I have one round left, and I think I'll keep it as a reminder of my loss of innocence with semi-auto centerfires...

Wow! Thank you for the wealth of information. I'm truly grateful to you and the other folks who have posted. I've led a sheltered existence for decades in the world of bolt-action centerfires and well-behaved ammunition. I completed the (excellent) NRA metallic cartridge reloading class earlier this year, but I feel like I only graduated from kindergarten compared to the experience I see around here.

When the PMC returned it was noticably weaker, then about a year ago I noticed that the stuff coming into the country was noticably different in physical appearance with it's appearance being identical to that of South African ammo as opposed to something like M193 from Lake City.

I think you're dead on. My PMC is marked "Made in RSA", and the headstamp shows "DNL 223 REM". Denel (Pty) Ltd. is the parent company of Pretoria Metal Pressings (PMP).

But in this thread

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33501

The High Road > Social Situations > General Discussion > PMC ammo and surplus (or, how to be cheap)

T.Stahl points out that his 223A PMC is shown as manufactured in RoK. Could be that his or mine is an old lot still circulating, or maybe PMC is actually producing and subcontracting .223 simultaneously at two or more facilities.

Again, thank you for your help!

Anybody else out there got info to share? Much appreciated in advance...

[Chugach]

And not at all to forget...

I had a great visit with a fellow THR member today. Learned as much in half an hour as it would take me 2 months on my own. Nothing beats "been there, done that". Really well-founded advice, strong encouragement to shoot in the local matches...

I'd name the individual here, but I'm not sure they'd be comfortable with that, so for now:

Thank you!

[Art Eatman]

Keith, that's interesting about "swelling" of cases. First time I've heard of it.

I've shot a lot of my uncle's old reloads. They were stored in an un-air-conditioned house in south Texas, ever since he died in 1977. I still have a few boxes of .243 stuff I loaded in 1968 and 1973. It prints about two inches lower at 100 yards than newer stuff, but groups nicely. All bolt action shooting except GI Carbine; but no extraction difficulty.

Art

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I think uglygun diagnosed the problem correctly. You have the PCR which has a .223 SAAMI chamber. Winchester produces several rounds that are loaded to NATO pressure (such as Q3131 and Q3131A). Firing 5.56mm NATO pressure rounds from the .223 SAAMI chamber and throat can cause all of the issues you mentioned. See this notice to law enforcement on that exact subject from Winchester:

http://www.winchester.com/law/news/news.eye?storyid=11

My guess is that the Winchester ammo is Q3131 and is loaded to NATO pressures and velocities. Because the throat is shorter in the SAAMI chamber, you are generating a lot of additional pressure. As a result several things are happening:

1) The extra pressure is enough to blow the spent primer out of its pocket.

2) The extractor is gouging the case rim because it is trying to pull the spent case against the extra pressure in the chamber (basically pulling on the rim while the case is still stuck to the chamber from pressure). the fact that Oly doesn't chrome line their barrels or chambers for accuracy just makes the problem even more noticeable.

3) The very clear shiny ejector marks are the same thing - the pressure is expanding the brass back into the bolt face and the ejector. Take a look at your ejector because I bet you have brass shavings in there and they can jam the ejector and cause issues on their own.

That's just my hunch. You can confirm it by getting several SAAMI-spec .223 loads and some NATO-spec loads and seeing if the problems only repeat with NATO stuff. If so, then the cheapest and easiest solution is just shoot SAAMI-spec ammo. A more expensive solution is to hit your barrel with a 5.56mm chamber reamer.

[gun-fucious]

just make sure if you reload for the AR15 you use military "hard" primers

chamber a round and then eject it and check out the indent the firing pin places on the primer

[Keith]

Art,

I've seen such swelling several times and always with old reloads, presumably because the cases aren't sealed. Of course, I live in one of the wettest places around, so it's not that surprising that they swell. What IS surprising, is that in at least one case when (they would still fit in the chamber) the primers were still good!

Chugach, glad you sorted things out! I think I'll avoid AR's!

Keith

[Chugach]

Bartholomew, thank you, that's an excellent explanation at the Winchester site.

We disassembled the bolt carrier assembly yesterday and didn't see anything weird. I'll take a second look today...I need to do some thorough cleaning anyway.

gun-fucious, I've been using mostly CCI primers for pistol reloading. Do you have a manufacturer recommendation? Will definitely use the procedure you outlined while muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

Keith, I love my black rifle and would only sell it in dire straits. I assembled the lower myself and learned a lot, including a bit more patience. It's a fascinating piece of machinery, I shoot it fairly well, and I love the aperture and post sights (more mature eyes, you know). You'd be missing out on a huge chunk of fun if you were to ignore AR's.

What particularly bugs me is that I can't find the original packaging for the WCC 94. I have one last place to look for an empty box with the lot number, but that's 75 miles away...hope to get there by end of month. I've only owned a rifle chambered for .223 for three years. I sometimes buy ammo on sale in anticipation of owning a new caliber, so maybe that pushes my ammo purchase back to 1998 or 1999. Since I don't knowingly buy reloaded ammo, where in the heck did I find ammo from 1994 that had been sitting on some retailer's shelf for four or five years, especially in such a popular caliber?

Mysteries make life interesting...

Great input so far...anybody else?

[Keith]

I can appreciate what fun it is to build your own rifle and then put it to work. My FAL was built from the ground up in the same way.

It just seems like AR's are complex and "finicky" and people always seem to be having some minor issue of one kind or another. If you have a problem with a FAL, you just crank the gas open another notch or two and the problem is solved. There isn't much that can go wrong and the "bang" from a 7.62 is more satisfying to boot!

Money is kind of tight right now, but if it wasn't I'd look into one of these very compact AR's that are popping up. I never really saw the point of an 8 pound .223, but a 4 1/2 pounder could be interesting and fun!

Maybe next year...

Keith

[gun-fucious]

Theres a thread on www.AR15.com in the troubleshooting forum where in a dood posted pix of his detonated Bolt Carrier

he thinks the bad round might of had a pistol primer

Something caused an over pressure situation and the back end of the cartridge base blew apart

When NYC power grid comes back & Arf15.com returns i will try to post a link

heres some other Ar15 KBs
http://quarterbore.com/ar15m16/ar15kaboom.html

Theres lots of good AR ammo data here:
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/images/556cham.gif

[uglygun]

Chugach, don't rule out all Winchester ammo....


Like mentioned by somebody else, Winchester makes both SAAMI spec and NATO spec ammo.

The stuff that is Nato spec is the Q3131 and Q3131A(israeli manfactured) while most all other white box is SAAMI spec'd.


You may just strike gold with the Winchester White box 45grn hollow points that come in the 40 round bargin pack, WallyWorld seems to stock it and sell it for something like 7-8 bucks a box. That's to SAAMI spec for sure and depending on the twist of your Politically Correct Rifle(what PCR is supposed to stand for I believe) you could get real decent performance from the stuff.

I don't think Winchester always made the clarification between the Q3131/A and other white box ammos until relatively recently, for some reason I want to say that only recently have they taken to it. Q3131 and Q3131A have become quite popular for those looking for a Nato spec round so Winchester typically marks the boxes now. I've got 2 cases of Q3131A and each and every 20 round box has got the Q3131A labeled on it.

okay, ammo junkie stroking his own ego....
http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/misc/ammo2.jpg


Surprisingly, my JP Enterprises rifle can pretty much digest anything with most 5.56Nato offerings included.

[telewinz]

Is it possible that the primer pocket on that batch of cases is out of spec (oversized) and that could account for the "ejected" primers? With the number of rounds he fired with popped primers I would think something more drastic would have occurred or had been noticed, especially at 65,000 psi. Cheaper ammo often has less than ideal powder loads to cut materials cost, powder companies who create a less than perfect batch of powder routinely sell it off rather than destroy it. A very slow burning powder combined with an oversized primer pocket or soft brass could account for the entire problem. Or even an enlarged gas port would simulate a pressure problem (timing). I'd fire the ammo in another .223 caliber weapon, that will determine whether its the rifle or the ammo. My money is on the rifle being at fault, eroded gas port or headspacing. This isn't a "kit" rifle is it?

[Chugach]

Keith, I'm on a bit of a gun diet myself. :mad: I'm getting more and more interested in service rifles. Had a chance to fire a friend's full-auto FAL back in June and was pleasantly surprised at how contollable it was. Nice rifle!

gun-fucious:

Great diagrams...really helps me understand the concepts clearly.

Those are some outstanding sites, thanks! quarterbore's photographs of the blown upper are darn sobering...amazing that no one was injured. The shooter's reloading mistake put himself and others in serious danger. I previously had only one additional requirement of the powders listed for .223 (AR-15) in Sierra's or Speer's reloading manuals: that the powder burn as cleanly as possible. Now, I'll add a second: that powder needs to be significantly different in form/color than my pistol powders (Blue Dot and Win 296). I'm new at reloading...anything I can do to increase reloading bench safety and instill good habits is worth consideration.

ammo-oracle is a gold mine. I almost got lost following all the links available. Got pointed to the Maryland AR-15 site that confirmed that I have a SAAMI chamber, NOT mil-spec.

uglygun:

You're right, I shouldn't give up on Winchester ammo. Thank you for the clear explanation and history. I'll just be sure that whatever I use meets SAAMI rather than mil specs. I'll certainly steer clear of anything labelled Q3131* until I get more experience (or a rifle with a mil-spec chamber).

You're also correct that Oly PCR stands for Politically Correct Rifle. That little jab by Oly earns them their own separate line in the to-be-banned list of the proposed replacement AWB bill.

You know, our WalMart's must be lagging behind. I've yet to find the value packs y'all keep talking about. Reloading supplies are suprisingly expensive there, and all I see in rifle ammo are the standard 20 count boxes. I'll have to ask what's going on the next time I'm in...

Your ammo stash is disgustingly complete! :D

telewinz,

Two of the 14 rounds spit their primers. You've outlined a good procedure for troubleshooting. I have one round remaining, and to eliminate variables, I'd want to find another Oly upper with SAAMI chamber to fire it in.

It could possibly be an eroded gas port or headspacing, but I've fired roughly (and only) two hundred rounds through this rifle. Fourteen rounds of what I believe to be WCC 94 gave me problems, and they were the most recent rounds to be fired. At least 185 rounds of PMC, PMP, American Eagle, and Denel have been fired earlier with no signs of stress on the cases.

Guess it depends on what you call a "kit" rifle...it's an Oly PCR pre-assembled and headspaced upper on an assembled-by-me Rock River Arms lower.

Thanks for your questions and insight!

And to all you other Evil Black Rifle experts out there, I'd love to hear from you if you have anything to add...

[gun-fucious]

http://www.AR15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=167477
Upon close inspection, the bolt was perfectly intact, the barrel was not bulged of chipped, all the upper was perfectly ok, the lower also was detail stripped and found in perfect order.
The only minor damage was in the barrel extension lug corrispondent to the extractor claw, it was slightly dinged (say 0,5mm).
During shooting I was firing rapid-fire, and it was roughly the 120th round without pausing, the barrel was very hot (I was holding the gun by the front of magazine).
Upon further investigation I found the the primer on the brass exploded was SMALL PISTOL one, I don't know how it was possible, but somehow it slipped in my press....
The brass was a military surplus one, it was roughly the 4th reload with 22gr of N120 and a lapua 52gr ball.
Right now I have a new extractor and bolt carrier, and I'm in the process of CAUTIOUSLY test firing the thing,
Anyone has any info on why my ar kaboomed?

[Chugach]

Hey gun-fucious, thanks for the follow-up on the AR15.com post! Cartridge case came out looking like a belted magnum (what's left of the head)! Sure looks to me like the action wasn't in battery with the cartridge fully seated in the chamber when it fired...Again, I'm surprised that in this instance there wasn't more damage.

As you said, sounds like another reloading mistake, this time apparently by substituting a small pistol primer for a rifle primer. With a less forceful firing pin strike required to ignite AND a lower pressure limit, it sure sounds like a kaboom! waiting to happen.

Seeing two split bolt carriers in one week...:uhoh:

Thanks again!

[Chugach]

No reply from Winchester. Have not yet located original WCC 94 packaging.

Since the "primer ejection" range session, I've shot 40 rounds of PMP, 100 rounds of PMC. All of these were headstamped 223 Remington, and I experienced no problems and no signs of excessive pressure.

[Chugach]

OK, I finally made it to my alternate shooting site. I found the original packaging for the "WCC 94" headstamped rounds that gave me difficulty.

It is Winchester white box
5.56mm
55 grain FMJ
lot HN31
box is labeled with product code Q3131

Moral of the story: make an informed decision before firing 5.56mm ammo in your AR-15. My Oly is chambered for .223 Remington. In my case, the difference in the two cartridges was noticeable, repeatable, and undesireable.

Also, I never received a reply from Winchester.


Guess it's time to put this thread to bed <yawn> :p