Modern carbine in... .30 carbine?


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Owlnmole
March 21, 2008, 12:07 AM
i have mentioned before that the rifle I have probably most enjoyed shooting over the years was the M1 Carbine. I also happen to think it's about the perfect rifle/cartridge combination for the vast majority of SHTF situations where a rifle would be appropriate.

The problem, today, is that a good original WWII M1 Carbine is not cheap, and getting more expensive all the time. The Kahr/Auto Ordnance models are great but run $600 or more.

So why doesn't someone sell a new rifle in .30 carbine, not an M1 at all, just something similar in principle? It might be something in blued steel and hardwood, along the lines of the Ruger .44 carbines, or something more utilitarian in plastic and black finish, like the Kel-Tec SU-16 carbines.

Drop the standard magazine capacity down to 10 and you won't even have to have a special model for CA, MA, etc. You'd still have a potent little gun, light at 5 lbs or less, for plinking, short-range hunting, home defense, police patrol, etc.

Any takers?

(No, I have no idea where to find something like this, I am just wondering if anyone but me would be interested.)

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PercyShelley
March 21, 2008, 12:16 AM
There were a few pistols made in the cartridge, but I don't think anyone's done a rifle that wasn't fundamentally an M1 on the inside.

Since it's such a low-pressure round, it seems like it would work fine in some sort of delayed-blowback design, which sounds further to me like it could be made with considerably fewer parts than the original.

rangerruck
March 21, 2008, 12:58 AM
right now , Carters' country in Houston , has those Kahrs on sale for 360.

goon
March 21, 2008, 01:42 AM
It's not a terrible idea, but I think the reason it's not made is a lack of a market.
It would basically be doing the same thing that the Beretta Storm, Marlin Camp Carbine, Ruger PC9, and Marlin and Puma lever actions do, only with a more expensive round.

volfandan
March 21, 2008, 01:50 AM
rangerruck,

are you talking about the Auto Ord/Kahr M1 Carbine for $360????? I'd like two please!!

Sunray
March 21, 2008, 02:00 AM
As mentioned, there's no demand.
"...The Kahr/Auto Ordnance models are great..." Hasn't been around long enough to tell whether it's any good or not. Including if it'll take milsurp parts. The $775 MSRP doesn't help.
Look around for a Plainfield(PMC made) carbine. They're the best of the commercial carbines. They shoot well and milsurp parts will fit. Mind you, in the 30 or so years I've had mine, I've never had to do anything to it other than clean it. It likes Speer 110 grain HP's with IMR4227 and regular small rifle primers. Grapefruit sized holes in a ground hog.
The only fuss it ever gave me was feeding with the one 30 round mag I have. Tweaking the mag lips open a tick with fine needle nosed pliers, fixed that.
If bad things ever happen, I'll be reaching for my Plainfield without even thinging about it.

Click Click Boom
March 21, 2008, 02:27 AM
IMI made a Galil based .30carbine SBR.

Tony Williams
March 21, 2008, 05:00 AM
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/MAGAL.jpg

lmccrock
March 21, 2008, 11:15 AM
Olympic Arms made an AR in 30 carbine. It is no longer in their catalog. Some might be out there, if you want to look. It took M1 carbine magazines.

Lee

greyling22
March 21, 2008, 11:39 AM
does carters houston really have them for 360? and are they mil spec? new or used?

ChiefPilot
March 21, 2008, 05:26 PM
The Kahr has been around more than long enough to know about it, contrary to the previous post. I've had one for about three years.

It is fully compatible with USGI parts; I have a spare USGI (Underwood) bolt for it that headspaces perfectly as well as other misc. parts. It shoots beautifully, and I'd declare it the equal of any USGI carbine I've seen in terms of functionality. What it lacks in history, it makes up for with accuracy. I'll take accuracy over history - to each his own.

Ratshooter
March 21, 2008, 07:21 PM
I called Carters Country about the 30 caliber Auto Ordnance rifles and they DO NOT have them on sale for $360.00. They are close to $700 bucks.

Unless fast firing and the ability to shoot 20 to 30 rounds is needed i think a 357 lever action is more desireable. You can shoot low powered loads or 125 gr loads that will pass 2000 fps and you can recover all of your brass. Plus you can use lead bullets. Also my Marlin will shoot 2 to 3" groups at 100 yards with the loads it likes.

Owlnmole
March 21, 2008, 07:34 PM
I would agree that there isn't currently much demand, but I think part of that is just a question of familiarity. I'm only 40, but my grandfather is (still going strong) a long-time collector and gun shop owner so I grew up shooting the M1 Carbine, Garand, Springfield, Krag and others on a regular basis. I have actually never shot a military firearm more recent than WWII.

My point is that there is a whole generation of shooters with little experience with a light, handy, easy to shoot weapon like the M1 Carbine. If there were a modern equivalent, not a replica, that kept the spirit of the old M1 Carbine but with modern touches, that might create the demand. Hey, where's that guy from Charles Daly...? ;-)

shep854
March 21, 2008, 10:39 PM
The problem is that AK clones and SKS's (and ammo) are much cheaper and familiar to many if not most current shooters.

Cost is the reason I am thinking about one (or both) of the above.

CptGonzo
March 21, 2008, 11:08 PM
I just bought a NIB Kahr M1 for $465 out the door from a local gunshop about a month ago, so keep your eyes out the prices on them seem to be settling down a bit. I'll go on record with Chiefpilot and agree that its fully USGI, as I was curious and changed out some parts to see with my Rock-Ola.

Personally I love it and I've had no issues with it. I bought it so I can shoot one of my favorite rifles and now put the Rock-Ola in the safe where it belongs. :)

shep854
March 21, 2008, 11:14 PM
BTW, I have a Rock-Ola/Winchester that ain't going nowhere!

otomik
March 21, 2008, 11:31 PM
I also happen to think it's about the perfect rifle/cartridge combination for the vast majority of SHTF situations where a rifle would be appropriate.:confused: I disagree and affirm that .223 retains the handiness of .30 carbine while improving on performance.

why would IMI of Isreal and Taurus of Brazil toy with the idea of a police carbine in .30 carbine? I'm not sure but it might have something to do with the densely populated urban areas, you want something with not too much penetration or range in order to avoid stray bullet casualties and over-penetration. No it's a mistaken idea that will be abandoned.

NG VI
March 25, 2008, 10:14 AM
My point is that there is a whole generation of shooters with little experience with a light, handy, easy to shoot weapon like the M1 Carbine.

Owlnmole I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Granted, I've never been graced with a chance to shoot an M1 Carbine, however M4geries are very light, easy to handle, I don't think the AR design has much recoil at all, and have quite a bit of utility.

That said, I really, really want a Magal, and since thats not going to happen at best, an M1 Carbine or a modern design with similiar uses would be great.

Also, Otomik, IMI made a specific cartridge for the Magal, it was a soft point, I will go find it.

ETA- Couldn't find it, sorry guys, but I am quite sure they made their own soft point bullet for it, and I think it's a little hot, too.

Click Click Boom
March 25, 2008, 01:29 PM
Maybe TPD or MSAR could Chmaber there AUG Clones in .30 Carbine? That would amke a sweet little rifle.

A PS90 would be nice in .30 Carbine as well.

Dravur
March 25, 2008, 02:14 PM
The 5.7x28 round is roughly the same OAL as the .30 carbine. So a PS90 modded to take the .30 carbine certainly seems possible and would be a very cool carbine platform

Geronimo45
March 25, 2008, 02:25 PM
why would IMI of Isreal and Taurus of Brazil toy with the idea of a police carbine in .30 carbine?
I'm pretty sure the US sent over a huge load of M1 Carbines to Israel... possibly to Brazil as well. I think it's more an issue of using up the massive stockpiles of .30 Carbine ammo they already have than it being a superior cartridge. It's cheaper to buy a new gun and use old ammo and magazines.

steven04
March 26, 2008, 09:12 AM
I've got a UK legal leveraction 'AR' in .30carbine. Its a great little round.

Rifle action works by using the pistol grip as a lever to operate the bolt.

Releasing the lever in the forward position allows the buffer spring to shove the bolt forward, strip a round from the mag, and chamber.

Alternatively I can use the rifle as a straightpull by using another of my lowers. (No gas system allowed)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v520/nokiapics/la302.jpg

SaMx
March 26, 2008, 03:23 PM
That's really neat. It's interesting to see what people come up with when they're hindered by all kinds of crazy laws.

Crosshair
March 27, 2008, 06:31 AM
That's really neat. It's interesting to see what people come up with when they're hindered by all kinds of crazy laws.
Yea, if only those politicians got hit by a bus so the survivors can shift their focus to "bus control" and leave gun owners alone.:rolleyes:

kludge
March 27, 2008, 02:19 PM
So why doesn't someone sell a new rifle in .30 carbine, not an M1 at all, just something similar in principle? It might be something in blued steel and hardwood, along the lines of the Ruger .44 carbines, or something more utilitarian in plastic and black finish, like the Kel-Tec SU-16 carbines.

Since I bought my SU-16, I've been saying the Kel-Tec should build a SU-.30 Carbine.

DMK
March 27, 2008, 02:53 PM
"My point is that there is a whole generation of shooters with little experience with a light, handy, easy to shoot weapon like the M1 Carbine."

Owlnmole I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Granted, I've never been graced with a chance to shoot an M1 Carbine, however M4geries are very light, easy to handle, I don't think the AR design has much recoil at all, and have quite a bit of utility.

I have an M1 carbine and I have a few ARs, built the way ARs are supposed to be, light and handy. There isn't an HBAR in the lot.

The AR is nowhere near as light and handy as an M1 Carbine. Plus the AR can't have a real folding stock due to the buffer tube.

What I'd like to see is a little 5lb M1 Carbine clone, chambered in .223

shep854
March 27, 2008, 06:49 PM
Though it saddens me to say it, a revival of popularity is very unlikely. The .30 carbine cartridge has become a historical niche round. The intermediate "assault rifle" rounds have replaced it. In fact, the AR15/M16 was originally intended as an M1/M2 carbine replacement for the USAF.

That said, if your carbine reliably feeds SP or SJHP, you have a dandy home defense gun.

.50DE
March 28, 2008, 04:31 PM
in .30 carbine:D
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/455HO/30m1s-1.jpg
In the past I have seen .45 Win Mag conversion's, and sadly I did'nt get any.
These are std Military, shorter folding stock, enforcer pistol, and an AMT auto mag III

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