Failure to go into battery. (140k pictures)


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Jumping Frog
March 21, 2008, 07:21 PM
OK, as some of you may know, I am new to reloading. My latest iteration is still not producing acceptable rounds. I am loading 200 gr LSWC in .45ACP with Accurate #7 powder, and shooting them with a ParaOrdnance 14-45 Night-Tac.

The rounds feed into the chamber, but the gun does not go into battery for a high percentage of rounds. Today had 15 of 40 rounds where the slide was pushed anywhere from 1/8 to 1/4 inch back from being in battery. I used 4 different mags and the problem was consistent.

When I drop that mag and clear the gun, each of the failed rounds had some crud on it. When I clean the crud off and replace on top of the magazine, then the round loads and shoots using either the slide release or a slingshot.

I had the same problem earlier this week, so today I took 40 test rounds to the range. The case mouth and bullet of each round was carefully cleaned with a scotch-brite pad and I had 10 rounds each measuring 1.240", 1.245", 1.250", and 1.255". The gun was cleaned to a mirror finish before going to the range.

Clean round:
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg126/Jumping_Frog/2008_0321-clean.jpg
Two example rounds that failed to go into battery were:
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg126/Jumping_Frog/2008_0321-crud1.jpg
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg126/Jumping_Frog/2008_0321-crud2.jpg

Now, I have also noticed the rounds are getting a dent in the bullet during feeding:
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg126/Jumping_Frog/2008_0321-dents.jpg
I assume lead chips from dented bullets combined with powder residue is the crud creator. Probably doesn't help that Accurate #7 is a dirty powder.

Has anyone else had feeding problems with LSWC bullets in ParaOrdnance .45's? I can't believe those dents are a good thing. The Para's have an integral ramped barrel.

After the 40 test rounds, without cleaning the gun, I shot 30 Winchester White hardball rounds without any misfeeds or problems. Also, I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die, which also post-sizes the case and ensures the case isn't too big. Using only the stand-alone barrel, clean cartridges will chamber easily.

Anyone have any suggestions? This reloader newbie is stumped.

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hotwheelz
March 21, 2008, 07:47 PM
My first question is what powder charge are you using?? Maybe not enough to fully cycle the gun, with light loads with some powder { I dont know about A#7 } you dont get complete burn . This would explain all the gunk on your bullet.

The dent doesnt seem all that unreasonable if your using a soft lead bullet, I have this happen with some of my own cast bullets without issue, it maybe with diff bullet profiles semi-wad cutters like your it should have no ill effect..

What are the bullets sized at .452, .454 ??? Are they your own cast??

I usually run my 200gr lswc at 1.225" My p-14 eats up anything I put threw at it.

tkendrick
March 21, 2008, 07:53 PM
I think the "crud" in your pictures is most likely lead that has shaved off the base or sides of the bullet while it's being seated into the case mouth. It's hard to tell for sure.

If that is the case, the solution should be fairly simple. Bell the case mouth a little more during your procedure.

The bullet should start into the case mouth without the sides or base hanging up on the rim of the case.

If that doesn't fix it, then take a look at your crimp. It may be that you are starting to crimp the case before the bullet is completely seatd, causing the case to dig in and shave the lead to the outside of the case. Easily fixed by adjusting your die and seating stem.

Either of these would cause you to have to put more than average pressure on the nose of the bullet when seating, that's probably where the deformation you see on the nose comes from.

Either problem will cause your round to not chamber completely.

Actually, after looking again at the foto's, I think the crimp issue is more likely than the belling issue.

Good luck

Jumping Frog
March 21, 2008, 08:36 PM
I think the "crud" in your pictures is most likely lead that has shaved off the base or sides of the bullet while it's being seated into the case mouth. It's hard to tell for sure.
First, thank you for responding.

No, each round was carefully and completely clean before being loaded into the magazine -- see the "clean picture".

The crud was on the bullet AFTER the slide cycled and tried to load the round. I dropped the magazine, cleared the chamber, and that is how the cartridge came out full of crud.

I repeat, there was no crud, lead shavings, or bullet lube on the round prior to attempted feeding.
If that doesn't fix it, then take a look at your crimp. It may be that you are starting to crimp the case before the bullet is completely seatd, causing the case to dig in and shave the lead to the outside of the case. Easily fixed by adjusting your die and seating stem.
I am using the Lee Bullet seating die with the die screwed out three full turns so that it does not apply any crimp at all. On the next station, I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die to crimp and post-size the case.
Good luckThanks! I need it.
My first question is what powder charge are you using?? Maybe not enough to fully cycle the gun, with light loads with some powder { I dont know about A#7 } you dont get complete burn . This would explain all the gunk on your bullet.
The load chart has 10.4 start charge, 11.5 max charge. I was loading 10.6-10.7 gr. Bullets are sized at .452. Gun show purchase, not my own cast.
]I usually run my 200gr lswc at 1.225" My p-14 eats up anything I put threw at it.
Boy is it a relief to hear that! Guy at the gunshop today told me he has never been able to get his Para's to handle LSWC. I was wondering if it was a Para issue.

Walkalong
March 21, 2008, 08:43 PM
No, each round was carefully and completely clean before being loaded into the magazineIf that second round pictured was clean before chambering, then the chamber is full of crud. Try a faster powder to get a cleaner burn. I would suggest Clays, AA #2, WST, Competition, 700X, Red Dot or similar. I load 200 Gr SWC's at 1.260 to 1.265 O.A.L. and have great luck with them feeding well there.

hotwheelz
March 21, 2008, 08:43 PM
I would try running a faster powder if you have any ex. titegroup, bullseye, red dot, . According to my load book a#7 is similar to Blue dot which is great for magnum { .357 , .44 } loads but maybe not so good for .45 Just a guess here tho I have never run either in a .45

The crud on your bullets sure looks like unburned powder to me

hotwheelz
March 21, 2008, 08:48 PM
If that second round pictured was clean before chambering, then the chamber is full of crud. Try a faster powder to get a cleaner burn.

Wow maybe I have learned a few things along the way if your haveing the same thought as me Walkalong:D:D:D

Grandpa Shooter
March 21, 2008, 09:11 PM
I have not been able to get 200 g LSWC to run in either of my match Colts' 175g run just fine. Any weight hardball are fine. I use either Accurate 5 or 9 and they do great.

I have begun to think there is something really different about the 200's. My malfunctions were just like yours. Start to chamber and stop about a 1/4" shy of battery. I even went back and squeezed them down--No Go. I tried seating deeper---No Go. I finally gave up on them.

Car Knocker
March 21, 2008, 10:37 PM
Grandpa Shooter,

I load the 200gr LSWC (H&G-68 profile) for my 3" Kimber UC and haven't had a problem. I use 8.2 gr AA#5 and a COL of 1.25". Enough crimp to remove the belling. Mixed brass. Shoots to POA with the fixed sights. Looks like I've shot about 1,800 of 'em. Most of the bullets from Laser-Cast.

243winxb
March 22, 2008, 11:49 AM
Could it be hard grease/lube from the cast bullets? Some of the new hard lubes need a heater when sizing bullets. I have seen even the soft lube build up in the chamber at times. The slow burning powder could mix with the hard grease on firing and cause this. ?

rcmodel
March 22, 2008, 01:04 PM
Sure looks like lead shavings to me!

Try seating deeper to get the bullet shoulder further into the case.

Your barrel may have a very sharp edge at the front of the chamber and is shaving lead off the bullet shoulder each time one goes into the chamber.

rcmodel

Walkalong
March 22, 2008, 02:41 PM
Yes it does, from the tip of the bullet. Good call rcmodel.

jfh
March 22, 2008, 02:45 PM
So, to summarize--

1. A good chamber cleaning--really good.

2. Shorter LOA.

3. Possibly a ramp job done by a competent 'smith (not homebrew), or--

4. Give up on this brand of 200LSWCs.

Jim H.

rcmodel
March 22, 2008, 02:55 PM
The first "Clean round" picture shows a slight ridge of lead just in front of the case mouth on the right side.

That will get squished off into the case as the round head-spaces in the chamber.

It is caused by seating & taper-crimping in one operation.

The bullet is getting lead shaved off on the final frogs-hair of seating depth after the crimp has closed up against it.

You might try chamfering the insides of the cases, or seating in one operation, then crimping in another.

Or just use your thumbnail and scrape it off as you inspect each round.

rcmodel

Vern Humphrey
March 22, 2008, 03:16 PM
Clearly a crimp problem. Seat in one operation, taper crimp in another.

wally
March 22, 2008, 03:34 PM
Paras are sloppy in both the guns and the mags, most of my Para mags using lead SWC at 1.25" will bind in the magazine, I was using 1.26" in my Colt but had to go to 1.23" for the Para to work.

If the above suggestions don't fix it, you may need a gunsmith to finish ream your chamber. But I'd investigate and solve the bullet nose lead shaving problem as the highest priority.

My P14 and P13 are fine with lead SWC as long as the OAL is short enough to not bind in the magazine. Si I'd say their is hope.

--wally.

JDGray
March 22, 2008, 03:56 PM
The second and third pic looks like the bullet is seated crooked, hard to tell from just a pic. I like FMJ:)

Walkalong
March 22, 2008, 04:54 PM
He said his rounds were clean before chambering, so I assumed he was not shaving lead seating the bullets, even though that is exactly what it looks like.

He could be picking up lead shavings in the chamber, as rcmodel noted, mixed with unburned powder/residue.

Either way, it's not condusive to chambering or accuracy.

Steve C
March 22, 2008, 05:36 PM
First problem is you have a bad powder bullet combination. AA7 is a slow burning powder for pistol (similar to Blue Dot in burn rate) and will not burn cleanly at .45 ACP pressures. For LSWC's which are generally considered target bullets you should be using a faster powder no slower than Unique or AA#5. W231, Bullseye, Red Dot, Grean Dot, AA#2, Clays, Tight Group are all appropriate powders for target loads.

The second problem is you are not seating your bullet deep enough and either the bullets shoulder is hitting the rifling before the bullet can enter the chamber fully or its OAL is so tight in tolerance that the crud of unburned powder left in the chamber is backing the case out that fraction. Remove your barrel an drop in your reloaded rounds and see where the end of the round is compared to the barrel hood. Drop in a factory round and see how it sits. Your hand loads should fit the same. Ignore some arbitrary OAL and seat your bullets as shown in the picture below for best results.
http://www.members.aol.com/scoll63101/public/45acp200gr

huntershooter
March 23, 2008, 06:44 AM
Listen to Vern.
Seat and taper crimp in seperate operations.

243winxb
March 23, 2008, 09:37 AM
jumping frog said "I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die to crimp and POST SIZE THE CASE." A standard taper crimp die is all that is needed. Why would you want to full length size a loaded round. There is a big difference in brass wall thickness from brass to brass. This mean a lead bullet is going to sometimes be made smaller in Diameter than it should be in the Lee die. As most have said, bell the case with the correct size expander, load the correct diameter bullet, seat the bullet without crimping, then taper crimp, not using a lee body die. Another good thiing to do is use brass of all the same lot and manufacture. This will give you better result and you will never wear out the brass, only loose it. When using mixed brass, you get a different crimp evertime, less important in a standard taper crimp die. But when you are Post body sizing in a Lee full body taper crimp die, itis NOt good. When setting up a standard taper crimp die, put the loaded round in the taper crimp station , ram all the way up, with the finished OAL you choose. Then hand turn the taper crimp die down till you feel it compress the brass into the bullet. This should give you a measurement close to .470" on the case mouth. As far as bullet diameter goes, some people dont even size a cast bullet, check the diameter, it should be .452" no bigger. When i cast, some bullets drop from the mould way to big, they MUST be sized. Any one that needs to use a Lee factory crimp dies that Post sizes is doing something wrong in the first place. When you buy cast bullets from an unknow maker, you never know what your getting. The bullet lube could be home made, the bullet could be unsized or to big or to small in diameter , the lead might be to soft.

Wilburt
March 23, 2008, 12:49 PM
In this thread i was having the same problem sorta. My chamber got dirty and left crud on the bullets, the nose of the round hit somewhere and made a slight chip, and i almost gave up on the 200 gr lswc.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=341349

All i did was what huntershooter, Vern Humphrey, and others said. Well mostly, it was seat and crimp in two differant operations. Not sure how i fixed it but. Also my crimp was a little tight. I was at .469 and using VVN310 (very clean powder) and my chamber was really dirty. Went to .471 and chamber cleaned up a bit. :confused: Hope this helps.....

I have begun to think there is something really different about the 200's. My malfunctions were just like yours. Start to chamber and stop about a 1/4" shy of battery. I even went back and squeezed them down--No Go. I tried seating deeper---No Go. I finally gave up on them.

So Grandpa Shooter maybe there's hope.

Funderb
March 23, 2008, 12:50 PM
once again.
lead bullets an automatic firearms
DO NOT go together.

rcmodel
March 23, 2008, 12:57 PM
That's not true at all.

I have shot lead bullets in 1911's, S&W's, Glocks, SIG's, and any number of other guns for 40+ years.

They work perfectly fine if you load them right.

rcmodel

Walkalong
March 23, 2008, 12:57 PM
Well, millions of lead rounds downrange in auto's would disagree with you. ;)

Whoops, we doubletapped him. :)

Meatco
March 23, 2008, 03:45 PM
If you have no problems feeding with ball, and only have SWC, I think you need to have your feed ramp done by a competent smith.

RD

evan price
March 24, 2008, 02:19 AM
I hate to rain on your parade-
But that's why I stick to 230-RN for my .45's and leave those funny-looking SWC's to revolvers.

Wildfire
March 24, 2008, 02:56 AM
Hey there:
I agree with Steve C. #1 that powder is too slow. It also looks like you have a soft lead bullet. Maybe too fast for that. A hard cast bullet would have a much sharper shoulder. And take more abuse on the way in the chamber. The front edge of those bullets look rounded. Too far out. And looks like a very dirty chamber. Go too a cleaner burning powder. 231, bullseye, #2. Some thing other then #7.
Also a good polishing on that feed ramp will help a lot. There is no reason that the gun should not fire 200 gr, SWC. A harder cast alloy will help with the denting on the nose of that bullet also. When they are loaded long the lead will hit the chamber and peel back some too. Your slide is ramming the soft lead into the chamber. Little or no crimp is needed.

243winxb
March 24, 2008, 09:11 AM
Wilburt, If you cast your own bullets as i do, i found that the alloy used to cast can have an effect on a loads OAL(head to shoulder measurement) when the original loading worked just fine. On a long nosed bullet like the Lyman 200gr. Bevel Base the difference between the shoulder and the nose of the bullet can change depending on the alloy mix you happen to cast the batch with. If you seat your bullet just touching the rifling as i do, a few .001's" can keep a slide from fully closing. The bullet nose to shoulder measurement of the cast bullet using a soft alloy will be different from the nose to shoulder than a bullet using a hard alloy. So, when i measure my OAL of a loaded round with a new batch of alloy, i measure the loaded round from the head to the shoulder of the seated bullet Not to the nose of the bullet. The only reason i seat the bullets into the rifling like(can't be done in all chambers/guns) this is, i get better accuracy at 50yds for target shooting, using this method. Not something i would do in a personal defence weapon.

Mal H
March 24, 2008, 10:46 AM
Well, millions of lead rounds downrange in auto's would disagree with you.
Whoops, we doubletapped him.
Make that a trifecta!

If I didn't shoot lead bullets in all my semiautos, I wouldn't be shooting very much at all.

Funderb
March 24, 2008, 11:50 AM
I'm not saying it's impossible.
I'm saying there are these things called jacketed
rounds that are designed to function more reliably
in automatic firearms.

Wilburt
March 24, 2008, 12:04 PM
Thanks.... I don't cast yet but good food for thought

TEDDY
March 24, 2008, 06:09 PM
he uses lee factory crimp. cant seat with that.why oh why if your plinking would you use expensive jacket bullets.I cast my own,they are were H&G 200 gr,then Saeco now Lee 6 cavity 200 gr SWC.3.6 gr of 700X seated just 1/32 out.never failed in my AMT long slide[can load empties out of mag.]also AMT Hardballer and Fed ordnance 45.target shooters use bullseye 3.5.try it you might like it.my guns are all factory spec.not tuned other than trigger. I have shot this load since 1969.oh! ww for lead.or backstop lead.and also it does not look like you crimped the rounds.take another look.
I have never measured the length but will since every one seem to make great to do about it.:uhoh:--:confused:--:D----:D

Jumping Frog
March 24, 2008, 10:33 PM
FWIW, I am using a 5 die set on a Lee Loadmaster.
Station #1 - Lee Universal Decapping Die
Station #2 - Lee Carbide Sizing Die + Priming
Station #3 - Lee Powder Through Expanding Die
Station #4 - Lee Bullet Seating Die (3 turns out -- no crimping at this station only seating.
Station #5 - Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die
I made up about 20 dummy rounds today at 1.220", 1.225", 1.230", and 1.235". Cycling them through the gun by hand showed that 1.220" to 1.225" didn't leave notches on the top of the bullet and seemed to cycle without failure. Apparently, 1.250-1.255 is too long.

However, I don't have much shoulder showing on the bullet at 1.225". Judging from people's comments, I get about a thumbnail's width of lead should showing around 1.230".
First problem is you have a bad powder bullet combination. AA7 is a slow burning powder for pistol (similar to Blue Dot in burn rate) and will not burn cleanly at .45 ACP pressures. For LSWC's which are generally considered target bullets you should be using a faster powder no slower than Unique or AA#5. W231, Bullseye, Red Dot, Grean Dot, AA#2, Clays, Tight Group are all appropriate powders for target loads.
Picked up some Clay's on the way home from work today.

I also had evan price on a different forum mention I should make sure I've cleaned any lead gunk out of the bullet seater die.

Next time I get to shoot, I'll check back and let you know how it has worked.

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
March 24, 2008, 11:54 PM
Hey Froggie,

Two potential things are causing your feeding/chambering problems. The first is your reloads. Steve C. has properly addressed the reload issues and Clays is a good choice. Work up a load with Clays and seat the bullets fairly deeply per Steve's description, where the shoulder of the bullet body is almost even with the case mouth, then check in your chamber. I suspect this may very well fix your issues by itself.

Secondly, if you are still having trouble feeding semi wad cutters after following Steve's advice, have a smith do what is called a reliability package on your pistol. The cost is about the same as a feed ramp job and includes the feed ramp work, but adds a couple small worth while touches such as polishing the sides of the link pin, throating the feed ramp (this is somewhat of an art and can be fairly quickly overdone if one is hamfisted), fine tuning the lockup, etc. All worthwhile for reliable operation of the very tight from the factory 1911's of today.

You could also have magazine issues and it would be worthwhile to also try things with another magazine or two. My bets are on the other two solutions if you have a decent magazine.

How do I know these things? I shoot 200 gr LWSC I cast myself by the thousands from my own 1911's. Secondly, I work on pistols doing custom work and see pretty much all the issues with most all manufacturers.

Regards,

Dave

Aces & Eights Custom Guns

Wildfire
March 25, 2008, 01:21 AM
Hey there:
Teddy has it right. My old colt used for IPSC will feed empty cases from a mag. The 200 gr, cast bullets made for many years now on my Magma caster have been fired many many thousands of times and never a fail to feed. Properly tuned ramps and throats will suck up what ever you shove at them.

ADKWOODSMAN
March 26, 2008, 04:03 PM
Probably billions Walkalong.

That's all I been shooting for 30+ years in my .45 acp and .38 super.

Triple tap!

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